Talk:Kriss Donald

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Kriss Donald article.

Talk:Kriss Donald/archive1

Contents

[edit] Verifiability and weasel words

I have added the weasel tag for the following reasons:

1. "Some commentators have contrasted the relatively small attention given to Donald's murder by the British media with the extensive and long-lasting attention given to the murder of the black teenager Stephen Lawrence"

2. "Other groups like the National Front say that the media and the British Government did not see this to be as important as the murder of.. Stephen Lawrence"

Also we need a reference for the claim that the BBC dropped the story from its national news coverage. The article needs a lot of other work done on it before it can be considered NPOV but these are the most blatant problems with the article. Rugxulo 13:51, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

  • That the BBC dropped the story from its original news coverage is undoubtedly accurate. That they were criticised for dropping the story is also accurate (both from my recollection and a quick google search). The *reason* for why they dropped it is speculation, and unless someone can actually *prove* that they dropped it *because* it was discovered that the murder was racially motivated, then we can't say that is why they dropped it. Average Earthman 22:06, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Unsubtantiated claims: The trial is now finished, and I can see no reference in any court reports so far to the claim that the victim suffered castration, or had his eyes gouged. Googling brings up sources which are inappropriate for Wikipedia, and even they use expressions like "the word on the grapevine". --Newshound 13:49, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bad reverts

Arrgghh! If I have to reference this article one more time I shall scream. Everytime I get refs in there, someone (different) reverts the article to some substantially earlier version and everything gets lost again. Please, do not revert past several versions. If you want something from an earlier article, cut and paste it in. Guardian sickness, yours was the most recent revert where this happened. JackyR | Talk 03:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


JackyR, I believe the article did at one time achieve some balance and reflected the effort people had put into the discussion. I know for a fact that people from white nationalist websites and people of a socialist persuasion had both edited the article until it was butchered. I therefore put an old version of the article up out of frustration. Ideally I would be able to find the exact wording of the article at the point before these people came and edited, but even if I did others would still be annoyed with me for using that version because they have made other non political and useful edits since. Guardian Sickness 02:14, 27 Aug 2006 (UTC)


First of all, JackyR. It is very dishonest of you to go back and edit your above post weeks after I have replied to it in order to accuse me of vandalising an article I worked hard to achieve balance in. YES I DID revert to an older version of the article. As I stated, people have edited the article again and again without discussing it. I discussed the article at length and it was a balanced article until socialists, white nationalists and others came here to vandalise the page. I could not find the article that the discussion agreed on, but was certainly not going to use a version that had been heavily edited by people who had not discussed it.

If you want to edit the article then discuss your edits and we can agree before you edit the article. I have no agenda, or aversion to such edits as long as they are agreed. If people edit without discussing then I will go back to an older version.

If other people have also edited the article without discussing it I have no sympathy with them either. My suspicion is that you, JackyR, finally took the time to read some of the above disucssion (which you could not previously be bothered to do) and then decided you didn't like my contribution to the discussion so edited your post while leaving the date as 24th August 2006. You are a joke! Guardian Sickness 14:04, 03 Oct 2006 (UTC)

What on earth are you talking about? JackyR | Talk 15:01, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

What is distrubing about this article (rather than the discussion page) is that more attention seems to have been given to the perceived bias in reporting rather than on the actual murder itself. For what it's worth, I agree that it's curious and, to my mind, imbalanced, that the BBC has reported this case only from its Scotland link on the website (albeit, it has been extensively reported there). However, I believe it does the victim an injustice to have more than half the article taken up with comments on what the BNP/BBC/"left wing"/"right wing"/"commentators" say. Also, I find portions of the first paragraph extremely POV:

"His murderers, who were British Asians of Pakistani Muslim origin, were found to have been racially motivated and had chosen Donald at random while seeking revenge for an alleged racist attack against one of the murderers in a nightclub the previous evening. After the murder, some of Donald's attackers fled the United Kingdom and sought refuge in Pakistan. Three suspects were arrested in Pakistan in July 2005 and extradited to the UK in October 2005."

Only one person has been convicted of murder; the others deny it and should be treated as innocent until a verdict to the contrary is returned. If convicted, then the term "murderer" is warranted in relation to all of the accused, but NOT before. The second last sentence above (about fleeing to Pakistan) is also POV. The fact that some of the accused were extradited from Pakistan is already covered later in the article. I would suggest changing the above to:

"The accused, who were British Asians of Pakistani Muslim origin, were alleged to have been racially motivated and to have chosen Donald at random while seeking revenge for an alleged racist attack against one of the accused in a nightclub the previous evening. Three suspects were arrested in Pakistan in July 2005 and extradited to the UK in October 2005."

The rest of the article on the facts of the case (as opposed to the commentary on the issue of bias) looks ok. I also agree that using words like "some commentators" and "there have also been accusations". It's relatively easy to footnote those statements so that at least people can see what commentators are giving this opinion. Siofra 11:32, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

While the first comments from Siofra are largely moot now the verdicts have been returned, I agree that the balance seems skewed, and now the trial is concluded the article could do with a rewrite to focus on:
1) the actual events first, in chronological order (discovery of body and its' condition, investigation, initial trials of first 2 suspects, extradition and later arrests of later 3 suspects, final trials and verdicts)
2) Controversies arising from the case in a later section (alleged bias in media coverage of race crime with white victims, counter claims of right-wing hijacking of the case, etc.) - Newsbeat 15:15, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good. There are multiple references in an earlier version of the page, which I've been intending to draw on. I confess I've been put off by the bizarre and spurious attack by Guardian Sickness above: I know I shouldn't let that stop me, but if even those trying to do their best by this article end up casting aspersions, how are the more difficult issues to be dealt with?
The only potentially practical thing I can offer is that I too have been looking through the media for anything to confirm or rebut the assertion about eyes and genitals being mutilated (which has been added more than once). I've so far found nothing to support this claim, and on the other hand a BBC article reporting the injuries as described at the recent trial[1]. Good luck with sorting this article out. I'd like to contribute too, but Guardian Sickness either explain your accusations or check the discussion history and withdraw them. And please stop labelling everyone who disagrees with you: it doesn't help. JackyR | Talk 16:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Something else I found interesting in terms of the bias conversation was that, on a cursory search of material on the Anthony Walker case, the trial news (day by day) is also linked off the England link of the BBC site, not the UK link. This matches with the location of the extensive coverage of this case (linked under Scotland). Also, the convictions and a general article on racially motivated crime is currently (Nov 8th) the lead story on the overall UK site. Siofra 00:08, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Blog link

I think it's objectively verifiable that the overwhelming interest in this case, as well as what has now become the dominant account ("racist anti-white murder"), have originated from the far right - a quick google search on Kriss Donald and anti-racism draws allhits on far right sites. I don't think it's useful to speak of racism in cases such as this - it isn't the expression of the prejudices of a dominant "race" against subordinates, it's a violence of inversion. Especially clear in this case since it was precipitated by a previous racist attack by whites. In fact it's very unclear to me why it's being assumed Kriss was targeted "simply for being white", though this is clearly the media majority opinion - the perpetrators were looking to retaliate against those who committed the earlier attack against them, so a more likely explanation is that they mistakenly believed him to be one of the perpetrators of that attack.

I'd suggest the BBC coverage was muted, not because of any ulterior political motive, but because the case became uninteresting once the motive was established and perpetrators identified. Coverage has resumed in the trials, with the "anti-white racist" trope repeated several times.

The "Progressive Contrarian" blog is more-or-less openly racist - one poster openly advocates white people being privileged in Britain, and on the other hand there are no anti-racist posters - and so flagging it as a "discussion of anti-racism" is misleading.

This unsigned drivel shouldn't go unchallenged. The high degree of criminality of the murderers has been demonstrated in court and their is no way that the brutal murder of a child can be construed as retaliation for anything. The boy was targetted by criminals, because he was white and Scottish and these criminals wished to stab and burn to death a child from the ethnic group they despised. Sentencing has been carried out and hopefully a quarter century in Barlinnie Jail will prove fruitful. Let us hope that apologists for the criminals learn to hold their tongue and develop some degree of morality.--Jamesfmun 21:43, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I can't comment on the Progressive Contrarian blog link as it was removed by the time I got back here (and to be honest I'd be suspicious of any blog being used as a source reference for something like this, rather than a verifiable news organisation or official police/public authority source), but I would caution on the seeming "weasel words" or some of the above comments.
Firstly, "I don't think it's useful to speak of racism in cases such as this": well I'm sorry, but the BBC and the sentencing judge clearly disagree. The BBC's (current) headline is "Three get life for racist murder" and in the sentencing speech, the judge is quoted as saying "You have all been convicted of the racially-aggravated abduction and murder of Kriss Donald..." That's the verdict, whether it suits your personal interpretation or not.
As for the crime being somehow explained or justified as being in retaliation for a previous attack by whites - that is not proven, although it was alleged as part of the defence. This smacks of an attempt to downplay the seriousness of the offence or to deny the possibility of a racial motive, without substantive evidence to back it up.
I much prefer in issues like this of potential volatility and emotion to stick to the facts, which in this case thus far are: A white youth is horrifically murdered, a group of Asian men are tried and convicted of his murder, the jury and court finding that the crime was racially-aggravated. If we keep to these facts in the bulk of the article, and reserve any coverage of interpretations by left vs right, political or race-based interest groups, etc, to a secondary position, then we will be able to keep this article NPOV and encyclopaedic.
And one last thing - please sign your comments with a - and 4 ~s to give name (or IP address) and date/time... Thanks. - Newsbeat 21:40, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

A judge saying something doesn't make it true. It's just the judge's POV. And most of the press reports backing this view just parrot the judge's remarks while mistakenly paraphrasing "racially aggravated" as "racist".

Also, racial aggravation is not the same as racism. Suppose someone beats up a guy he thinks is having an affair with his wife. In the course of doing so, he uses a racist epithet. He would probably be convicted of "racially aggravated assault". It doesn't mean the motive for the crime is racist in the way that is being claimed about this case; the distinction should be made clear. -82.31.4.165 00:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

So a person who engages in "racially aggravated" acts, particularly those that lead to murder or serious injury, using terms like "white bastard" or "black bastard" is not racist in his motivations? I doubt many of the "anti-racist" groups would agree with you there. Although I understand the point you are making that a crime aggravated by racism is not necessarily the same as one initiated by it. I wonder if the police and Home Office actually record "racially aggravated" as a separate category of offence to "racist" crime? If not, that would tend to suggest the entire area of racist crime reporting is completely inaccurate and questionable. Interesting theory - have you pointed this out on all the other "hate crime" referenced pages too since it has wider implications?
In fact it would appear according to the legislation that proof of a "racially aggravated" element in an offence can cover either "racial motivation (wholly or partly)" or "hostility based on the victim's membership (or presumed membership) of a racial group" (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1998/98037--e.htm#28). Based on that, the assumption that a verdict of "racial aggravation" doesn't mean the killing was "racist" is just as presumptuous and smacks of playing semantic games or applying one's one personal interpretation to events...
In your example, the crucial point is whether the offender has bothered to seek out the "correct" victim (ie: the one who actually did have an affair with his wife), or merely picked on one of the same racial background or profile on the likelihood that he is the guilty man, or out of a desire to get back at one of his "type". Since there is no evidence that Donald was actually one of those involved in the gang who (allegedly) attacked the other youths, nor that they went to any lengths to try and establish he was, their choice of him could have been based on their own such "profiling". The use of the phrase "white bastard" in relation to the attack was understandably taken as evidence therefore that there was a racial element, just as it is in cases where a non-black perpetrator in a similar offence uses the term "black bastard".
Oh and one final point - re: the blog reference to "Anarcho-Akbar" - what makes this blog any more relevant to the subject than any other that might be floating around on the web from advocates or apologists for one viewpoint or another, such that it should be referenced in an encyclopaedic article? - Newsbeat 23:14, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] unverified material

Just out of curiosity - why are there such vivid descriptions of this murder, without any verified source? It should, according to my opinion, be removed, in order to show some respect to his family.

[edit] issue of racism etc

I think the blog was rightly removed as it did not add much to the discussion.

The definitions of racism contained in the Wikipedia entry on this confirm that the term is inappropriate in this case. I refer especially here to he section on the term "reverse racism".

That the (racist) criminal justice system uses this label does not prove that it was accurate, nor does the BBC and other mainstream media parroting a label they received directly from this system. I feel the issue needs raising here, of different definitions of racism and the stakes involved - i.e. that while the case may involve ethnic prejudice which would qualify it as racist on a liberal definition, it does not involve the systematic racial discrimination and privilege implied in more sociological approaches, and that characteristics such as a consistent hatred of members of a particular ethnicity have not been demonstrated to be present - in other words, that the typification of the killing as "racist" is POV and implies a very specific conception of what "racism" involves.

The POV and personally offensive remarks of "Jamesfmun" are really below what I should deign to reply to, but I repeat - the claim that the motive was simply racist and did not involve (for instance) mistaken identification is being widely asserted without any specific backing (nor is it required for a court to reach a verdict of "racial aggravation", even assuming the verdict is accurate). The allegation of retaliation for an earlier incident has been stated in a number of news reports, and is extremely important in confirming the incident as an invertive phenomenon of the kind discussed by Fanon rather than as racism properly speaking. Adding that the perpetrators "exhibited criminality" means nothing - criminality is a label not an attribute, a "crime" is an act which another judges to be against their normative code and not a characteristic of individuals - it simply shows that the author adheres to a misguided theory of the origins and motivations of actions labelled as crimes which echoes that of discredited authors such as Lomroso rather than the current state of criminological research. Interesting, too, that he chooses to read an impartial interest in truth as "immorality" and "apologia"; he obviously thinks that truth is his own property as holder of a particular point of view.

Hunting down a member of another ethnic group based on skin colour alone is not consitent with how street gangs usually act in cases of retaliation; on the other hand, killing an innocent person who is wrongly identified as belonging to a rival gang is not uncommon. For this reason the dominant explanation is not plausible. What comes out of the trial shouldn't really be trusted because a lot of the case depends on an accused suspect who turned prosecution witness - and who has motives for confirming an already dominant discourse to mitigate his own sentence.

It would also be beneficial to find and note an anti-racist response to the dominant discourse, though I'm not aware of one at this time.

-86.29.24.27 17:59, 9 November 2006 (UTC)antiracist

Aha - a philosophy undergraduate speaks!

Please sign your posts! I can't easily tell where one person's begins and ends, or whether someone has augmented their contribution. Ta, JackyR | Talk 13:20, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Post-trial revisions

Sterling work, particularly by Newsbeat. Well done everyone on the vast improvements in the article.

One tiny cavil: the iWitness article actually says the opposite of the WP article: the allegations of "political correctness" are being made by Mike Liddell; Maan is strongly refuting this and saying that fear and intimidation are the problem instead.

In view of this, the reference to Maan's claims on TV also seems unlikely - although again such an allegation is made in iWitness by Liddell. Is it worth expanding this to give Liddell's assertions and Maan's refutations, or is this puffing out the controversy section too much? JackyR | Talk 00:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Oops! Thanks for highlighting that error with the iWitness article - apologies for the mistake, I obviously didn't read that article as thoroughly as I should, as I saw "Bashir Maan" then skimmed down and saw "He said..." in the next para, but that was from the police chief named in the middle of the para above! A nasty error on my part. Thanks to whoever set that straight in the text. - Newsbeat 22:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I think Bashir Maan did indicate that there was a problem with fear and intimidation, but he also indicated that Stratchlyde Police were unwilling to tackle the problem of crime among Pakistani gangs on the south side of Glasgow. This is not an issue of political correctness as such - I don't think it's suggested the police were uncomfortable with the idea of tackling Asia crime per se. They were afraid of the negative public response which might involve allegations of racism, rather than thinking pursuit of such criminals might in itself be racist. --Jamesfmun 12:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I get what you're saying. However this still appears to be the opposite view of what he says in the iWitness article ("I don’t think the police are scared to apprehend Asians who are causing trouble.") And I can't find a BBC website article or audio clip of the Maan TV interview (doesn't mean it's not there...).
If the important point is that the claim was made that police were afraid of accusations of racism, should we just cite Liddell? JackyR | Talk 16:22, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

There's a link to the Frontline Scotland video file (realplayer) on the following page: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6133028.stm Maan states that "the police, shall we say, had become reluctant to come and tackle these problems in these areas where there was a concentration of ethnic minorities." This was used as a quote in support of the presenter's assertion that members of the ethnic minority communities considered that the police were afraid of accusations of racism as described above. Maan's statement is about 22 minutes into the programme.--Jamesfmun 20:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't see as this question of alleged police reluctance to pursue Asian gangs has any place in an encyclopedic article dealing with one particular killing. The insertion of such material amounts to the concealed promotion of a POV account of the causes of the killing (more specifically, a far-right/white-chauvinist POV account in which alleged "political correctness" by police is taken to encourage rampant crime by minorities). If comment must be included on such allegations of inaction, they should be balanced firstly by recognition that such fear of condemnation for racism may serve to impede actual police racism (witness for instance the big decrease in deaths in police custody after the McPherson report), and secondly by references to continuing accusations of police racism (against non-whites).

-82.31.14.218 21:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. The alleged reluctance to pursue (and I'm not convinced the allegation is justified) relates specifically to the place in Glasgow where this one particular killing occurred, the period during which it occurred and the group of individuals responsible for the killing. So, the allegations should stay. It isn't a generalised suggested that police are scared to tackle Asian crime. Your suggestions for balancing material are not specifically relevant, even if generally correct. Again, the allegations are contextually specific to the time and place of the crime, not the general picture of polic/ethnic minority relations in the UK. This is not a race issue article, even if some would wish it so. The insertion of the material by myself does not amount to concealed promotion of a far-right, white chauvinist POV. The allegations are not my point of view: the fact that they were made is a reality, even if they are false. Thus, they have been reported here.--Jamesfmun 09:32, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me patently obvious that the allegations are a political attempt by the police to use this incident to get out of pressures to avoid racial profiling and to avoid antagonising minority communities. There's an obvious vested interest here - the police don't want to be constrained by issues of tolerance, and want to disguise their own institutional racism. In other words, the comments have a bias. To report the comments without a counterpoint is to reproduce this bias.

-82.31.4.165 00:28, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense, Unsigned, stemming from the primary fact that the police have not made the allegations. They have denied them. --Jamesfmun 07:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Added material

I've done quite a bit of editing to improve this article. Since there's a controversy over whether the murder is racist, I've added a long section detailing different narratives. Since there is considerable disagreement I felt it necessary to present different perspectives, referenced to their respective holders.

I included references to a number of far-right sites for the reason that it's important from a neutral viewpoint to be aware of the overwhelming interest from this section, the relationship between this narrative and the others expressed, and the ways in which the narrative relates to the broader ideological agenda it is used to promote. I feel the absence of a specific discussion of the far-right leads to the conflation of far-right concerns into the mainstream narrative which furthermore was previously presented as fact, despite being contested even in the mainstream media itself; the overall effect of these two phenomena being to promote a far-right viewpoint by making it seem fact rather than opinion.

I also included one blog entry but it is as a reference for opinions not facts; it is used to represent particular viewpoints.

I have also added some material on the unusual extradition situation, and made alterations to the controversies section. The BNP/police claims regarding political correctness now have a counterpoint, as do the arguments about mainstream media censorship. In both cases, NPOV seems to me to require that the origin and bias of the viewpoint expressed be recognised, and that opposing viewpoints be presented.

-82.31.4.165 03:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the following statement added to the text: "That one of the perpetrators said he was looking for revenge on a “white bastard” prior to the case is sufficient to amount to racial aggravation in British law;" No such thing as British law pertains in Scotland. Scots law is the system in Scotland and the terminology should be altered. I haven't done so, as I'm unaware of the legal details here. --Jamesfmun 07:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The legal system is different but a lot of the laws are the same - I assume the "racial aggravation" charge derives from the Race Relations Act which is a British national law and is implemented in Scotland.

-82.31.5.200 15:52, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments about new material

Wow! Well I can see why other editors have got frustrated on this article. This new material is... interestingly... written.
I see some specific flaws:
1) This essay spends a lot of time and energy discussing ways in which the attack on Donald might not have been racist, moving through different definitions of racism, looking at the gang aspect and so on. But it also makes the entirely uncritical statement: "the people convicted were themselves victims of a racial attack earlier in the day." Sez who?
And as you answer that, even to yourself, submit your answer to the same scrutiny you give to the attack on Donald. The POV revealed here pervades the whole of the new material.
2) Strong and detailed claims are made about the modalities of gang behaviour. Can we have some sources for this, or is this simply "Everyone knows that..."?
I ask because I don't have specific knowledge of gang behaviour (just general knowledge), and your comments on such seem contradictory: above you made the very strong statement,
"Hunting down a member of another ethnic group based on skin colour alone is not consistent with how street gangs usually act in cases of retaliation; on the other hand, killing an innocent person who is wrongly identified as belonging to a rival gang is not uncommon. For this reason the dominant explanation is not plausible."
This is contradicted by your own comment in the article about collective punishment. You also mention killing of bystanders possibly associated with gangs. I can't make out whether you are referring to gangs killing a bystander entirely accidentally/carelessly, or deliberate targetting of someone whom the gang suspect may only be a bystander. Either way, I'm not prepared to spend ages trying to tease this out unless we have some reasonable sources for gang behaviour (cos if you just made it up from what you think, I could as easily do the same: and we'd both have wasted our time).
3) This essay makes several unsubstantiated statements or conclusions eg:
"this narrative seems to have spread from far-right to official sources" and
"Although one of the killers referred to the rival gang as ‘white bastards’, this was simply a supplement to the main motive of gangland revenge."
Again, sez who? Either may be true, but we can't know for sure (and no stronger evidence than "similarity" is even advanced for the first); the Wiki-way is to simply put the positions, with cites, and leave it to the reader to decide. (Modulo not giving "undue" weight to minority opinions - another Pandora's box, but let's leave that alone for now.)
4) The Macpherson Report definition of a racist incident is an incident "which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person"[2]. Since this is about crime and policing in the UK (tho not explicitly Scotland), we should reference this.
Clearly this article is not the place for a detailed discussion of different definitions (that belongs at Racism), but there is the problem that, if "racism" is defined narrowly, eg as "a system of oppression" (Racism), then we need another word to mean, "individual action in which the race of the actor/interactor is a factor." It's not enough to walk away saying, "X isn't racism because it isn't about a system".
I raise this because I have concerns about your writing above, where you say a) that the case might be "racist on a liberal definition"; and, immediately afterwards, b) that to describe it as racist "implies a very specific conception of what "racism" involves". These can't both be true, but they do give the unfortunate impression that you have a fixed aim, and will approach the question from any angle to try to get the "right" answer.
5) Much of this material doesn't really belong here but at the article on Racism, or perhaps one on "The Impact of the Macpherson Report on Policing in Britain" (eg "Rather, prejudicial acts are often viewed as inversions of dominant social practices, as is revealed in the work of Franz Fanon."). These can then be referenced in the Donald article where relevant, rather than it being stuffed with generalised exposition. If, as with Stephen Lawrence, the legacy from the case becomes much larger, stimulating academic discussions or a review like the Macpherson Report, then of course there would be more of this material - which would probably get its own article, anyway. But currently this seems like an original essay, not a mere synthesis of well-developed studies.
On the plus side, this new material does introduce a great deal of cited information, for which congratulations. (There's currently some technical problem with the refs not linking correctly to their numbered superscripts, but I'll look into that.) It also does a good job of separating the mainstream coverage from the far-right coverage, so well spotted and well done.
So in summary, my general concern is that, although containing good material, this addition currently reads as an essay, with very clear indicators of the writer's POV. I feel it should be re-written, and will undertake this. However, I have no desire whatsoever to get into a revert war, and would prefer some thoughts from others first. Cheers, JackyR | Talk 20:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Response to comments about new material

Brief responses:

1) The claim that anti-white killings in general, and this killing in particular, can be racist is controversial. The claim that anti-Asian attacks by whites are racist is less controversial - though in this case it's probably worth noting that the previous attack may also have been gang-related.

2) The claims regarding gang modalities (in talk, not the article) are based on my understanding of sociological research on the topic, though I don't have exact sources handy (Matza's "drift" thesis contains references to this topic, i.e. the exact circumstances in which members of youth gangs consider illegality to be justified or in fact engage in it); the reference to collective punishment could be taken to mean punishment of those suspected of involvement with the gang, but in any case is summarising a POV which is not necessarily my own (as are a number of my insertions). Killing of bystanders happened in the Nottingham gang feuds, in a way very similar to the Donald killing (i.e. someone seen standing around with someone a gang member thought was a member of a rival gang would be killed).

3) The quoted sentence starting "Although..." is a paraphrase of material from Neil Davenport's piece. It is not stated as fact but as Davenport's view; this should be clear from the reference after the entire section dealing with Davenport.

The other sentence referred to here is indeed my own; the inference is made because the core element similar in both narratives (the depiction of the crime as a random racially-motivated anti-white killing) appeared in far-right coverage from day one in far-right coverage: http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=122130&highlight=kriss+donald (early posts dated the day of Kriss's death) whereas as already reported, the BBC covered it as gang-related for several days. The "racial" narrative later became dominant in the mainstream. This seems at least to show a de facto expansion of elements of this narrative from far-right to mainstream sources, though it doesn't demonstrate actual influence.

My intention isn't to give undue weight to far-right views, which I personally despise; I feel they need substantial coverage for two reasons - firstly because they represent a disproportionate amount of coverage of the case (in terms of word volume, links available etc), secondly because interpreting the role of these views may be crucial to understanding the stakes in the related controversies.

4) I don't see a contradiction in the two claims. The case is racist on a very particular definition, i.e. the liberal one (meaning liberalism as a political theory/perspective, in which racism is viewed as individual prejudice rather than as systemic; see racism article for details). The racism article gives a lot of space to differing perspectives and it would thus be contradictory to treat one of these as contentious here.

You're right, if "racism" is taken to mean systematic discrimination then a different term is needed for some kinds of individual prejudice; this is a problem for the systematic perspective (one it sometimes addresses through conceptual innovation such as the idea of "inversion"), but there are also problems with/criticisms of the liberal definition (e.g. it treats a reaction to systematic oppression as equivalent to an action constructing such a system, and is unable to deal with "agentless" discrimination). In other words - it's a problem with a POV which demonstrably exists - not specifically with my alterations to the article. You've said yourself that we shouldn't be trying to legislate between perspectives; my point is that, given the way the dominant narrative constructs the case as racist, it is important also to include opposing narratives or else one is promoting bias. (If you object that the opposing narratives are insufficiently widespread, this contradicts the importance they are given in the racism article and elsewhere on the site).

5) I looked for relevant articles to cross-reference, for instance "UK police racism", "anti-white racism", "inversion" (in the technical sense in postcolonial studies), "reverse racism" (which redirects to "racism"), and hit blanks. I felt that the material about systematic vs individual racism was necessary to make sense of the explanation of differing perspectives. I've certainly been concerned to make sure the anti-racist perspective gets a fair hearing, but I don't see how what I've said advocates as opposed to simply presenting it.

The material here is "original" in that it hasn't been synthesised in this way before, but I don't see how it's original research in the sense of NOR; it doesn't involve primary empirical research but simply collates existing materials.

On another note (due to later POV edit) - CARF is not a SWP front. ANL and UAF are the SWP-linked anti-racist groups. I'm not sure the group could be called "far left" either as it only takes positions on anti-racism issues and not on politics and economics more broadly; to my knowledge it is true, however, that its founder Sivanandan is some kind of Marxist.

-82.31.12.255 01:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Responses to responses...

Hmm. I've pondered how much to say in response. I think not much, as this is supposed to be a discussion page about this article, not a general appraisal of post-colonial studies.

So I'll pick up only a practical issue. Your use of very narrow definitions of racism in response to (1) and (4) is itself highly controversial, as you well know. They are not supported by my dictionaries, for example (these are descriptive, not prescriptive, of usage), nor by the Macpherson Report. I'm not sure precisely what you mean by "liberalism as a political theory/perspective" (and neither is Wikipedia: Liberalism), but it is clear that a broader definition of "racism" is used by people with a very, very wide range of political views and indeed in a wide range of countries.

You do, however, refer to "technical" definitions within post-colonial studies. I'm quite sure that schools of thought within this field have their own technical definitions - each subtly different, of course. But just as mathematicians do not campaign for Trafalgar Square to be renamed because it is not a square (geometry), and saying that one finds this conversation depressing does not mean one suffers from clinical depression, so one cannot pick up a technical, localised definition of a word and expect every English speaker in the world to assign it this meaning. Wikipedia does not sit within a given school, or indeed within academia.

I don't know how important this will be for the article, but if it comes up I don't want you to think I'm ignoring what you have said: just that I vehemently disagree with parts of it and feel I have strong grounds on which to do so. I keep wanting to expand this Talk with even stronger arguments, but don't think they advance the article so will hit Save before I write-and-delete them for the third time...

And with all that, I've not had time to work on the article! Cheers, JackyR | Talk 22:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow. This article really has been altered beyond all recognition since I last passed through here, from one where we were gradually beginning to reach a clearer, more factual statement of events - with the controversies and the politicised arguments confined at least to a lesser position - to one of totally politicised, loaded and contradictory pseudo-intellectual commentary. Can we at LEAST return this article to a simple statement of facts regarding a crime, and not turn the whole thing into a poor version of a postgraduate thesis on socio-political theory?
If we listed all the phrases, assumptions and weasel words used in the article now which render it ridiculously POV and "politically correct" (to use the buzzphrase) it would probably fill a whole article in itself. But let's start with:
"High-level state officials went to extraordinary lengths to capture the three men who had fled to Pakistan, suggesting a strong determination by the British state to convict."
What makes these lengths in this case "extraordinary" over and above those of others relating to murder (or other serious criminal) cases where suspects travel abroad immediately after the murder to nations where there are difficult or non-existent treaty relationships, and therefore diplomatic negotiations are required? Why is it notable that there was a "strong determination by the British state to convict" in this case, and how is this demonstrably different from any other such cases as mentioned above? The wording strongly implies a bias by "state officials" against the suspects, when 1) no evidence of this exists, and 2) at least one footnote specifically contradicts this, stating that such "state officials" as the then Home Secretary and Foreign Secretary actually blocked the extradition request.
Additionally, much of the (long-winded and over-wordy) text in the "Explanations for the killing" section is not factual, but is viewpoint or subjective material and enters into the realms of political and personal belief - or even bias - and semantics and should therefore be under the "Controversies" section (if it must be used at all) since it is speculative and, as the original heading implies, open to debate and controversy.
The meat of this article is now seriously in need of de-politicising (ironically, given most articles of this type are hijacked by the NF/BNP-style political angle this seems to have swung over to the other extreme in my view), and the contributors should remember that first and foremost this is a record of a criminal act and the subsequent verdicts and outcomes, NOT a lengthy study on socio-political, interracial or left- vs right-wing minutiae. - Newsbeat 22:12, 17 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Major edits of far left material

I have been right through the article and have given reasoning for the changes I have made. I have listed all the edits I have made by section with relevant references to Wikipedia policy. I find it hard to believe the article was untouched, and left with this politically motivated edit for over two weeks. Apart from my edits, the input that is needed is whether the article need contain references to the BNP or the responses to the BNP by those on the left in Scotland at all. While the section on “controversies” may be justified by way of the aborted police operation and media coverage in this case, I’m not sure the BNP, or the trade unions and their concerns need be mentioned.

Kriss Donald Summary.

I have changed the reference to Pakistani men, as those convicted were in fact British born Asians.

Kidnapping and murder

“According to the BBC, the gang who kidnapped him took him on a 200-mile journey”

I have removed “According to the BBC,” since these were the findings of the court and are facts.

Added info on the ward of Mohammed Sarwar, “Glasgow Central,” which is more accurate.

“The five men convicted of the abduction and murder, all of whom were British Asians of Pakistani origin, were convicted of racially aggravated offences, though there is disagreement over the motive and causes of the attack.” I have removed “…though there is disagreement over the motive and causes of the attack.” This is a view of a tiny minority, and is incidental to the facts of the case.

Removed “himself a well known member of the Pakistani community in Glasgow.” This is a political point and the article is not about Sarwar. His background is obvious from the rest of the article giving his job and place of birth.

“High-level state officials went to extraordinary lengths to capture the three men who had fled to Pakistan, suggesting a strong determination by the British state to convict.” There is no information to say the government or police were any more vigorous in their pursuit of Donald’s killers than they would have been for any other child killers. The British state does not have a policy of pursuing some child murderers and not others, so the above reference to “…suggesting a strong determination” is nonsense. An individual effort by Sarwar or the Lord Advocate does not indicate more determination by the state in this case than any other.

“…who allegedly were only discovered because Sarwar comes from the same village and thus learnt of their location.” I have removed the above as there is no supporting citation, even on the basis of it “allegedly” being the case.

“The issue of the killing quickly became politicised because of the alleged racial element” The racial element is not “alleged”. The crime was and is known to be racially motivated.


Arrests and trial

“These other men, Imran Shahid (aka Baldy), Zeeshan Shahid (aka Crazy), and Mohammed Faisal Mustaq (aka Beck)” I have removed their gang names. I do not see what relevance these have to the case. It is obvious they were part of a gang, and they were all convicted and sentenced under their real names. This reads like something from a tabloid newspaper.


Explanations of the killing

This section was not relevant to this article. Theories on what constitutes racism or racially motivated murder to those on the “Marxist far left” are not a matter for the Kriss Donald case. Just as views on what constitutes racially motivated murder to those on the far right are not matters for the Stephen Lawrence or Anthony Walker cases. The facts of this case are that his killers were found guilty of racially aggrevated murder.

The speculation of journalists or those on the far left is neither here nor there and is not based on fact. The findings of the jury were clear and constitute the facts of the case. Also, Angela Donald has never denied that the murder of her son was racially motivated. This was a false claim, which I removed from this page a few months back. No such statement from Angela Donald was contained in the far left article cited, and even if such a quote exists it in no way implies that she would deny the racial motivation for her son’s murder.

The “Explanations of the killing” section of the article was a very poor attempt at a diversion from the facts and nature of this case, which, incidentally, would have been in breach of Wikipedia’s “Undue weight” policy. The reason being that the contributor offered 3 paragraphs on the far left position on race crime with 3 quotes to give oxygen to their arguments. However, when the contributor comes to the far right arguments he offered one paragraph, and no quotes. At best he offered a subjective summary of the far right position.

Secondly, the “Undue weight” policy also states, “Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all.” It goes on to state, “We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view, and views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views.” There are too many reasons for this section to be deleted, and those are in addition to the fact that these far left ramblings have nothing to do with the Kriss Donald case.


Controversies surrounding the case

“From the earliest days of the case, racist pro-white groups have intervened, interpreting the killing as an instance of problems close to their own concerns, particularly their widespread accusation of mainstream bias against working-class white people and in favour of ethnic minorities.” I have removed this reference as it is a subjective interpretation of the far right and their motives.

“There have been accusations from groups such as the British National Party (BNP) and the National Front that the media” I have removed the ref to the National Front as they are a tiny minority group, and should not warrant being mentioned. Whether the BNP need be mentioned in the article at all is a matter for discussion. The controversies about the police operation and media coverage were raised by BBC viewers and at least one newspaper editor on Newsnight.

“this has led to allegations of bias from far-right organisations” I have replaced this as BBC viewers also criticised the coverage. It is impossible to identify the politics of those BBC Viewers who criticised the BBC.

“Contrary to such accusations, the trial itself was widely covered throughout the mainstream media, including by the BBC, which has a number of related articles on its website”

The above is simply not true. The part about the “mainstream media “is unqualified and a personal point of view. The case received scant TV coverage in 2004, and zero reports on national news bulletins from the BBC once it was discovered the case was racially motivated . I refer you to the Newswatch interview with Fran Unsworth for confirmation of that fact. That is an impartial source, where the above opinion offers no evidence and is not a statement of fact. The trial was not widely covered. As a measure of that, BBC newswatch confirmed that the Walker case (the coverage of which could better be described as “widespread”) was mentioned 36 times compared to the Donald case being mentioned 3 times - those 3 times being before it was known the murder was racially motivated.

“There were also apparently reporting restrictions interfering with coverage, linked to the problematic process of extradition from Pakistan; this may have further affected media coverage.” I have removed this as the Guardian link contained no such information and the “may have” is apparently personal conjecture. I dispute this logic in any case; the conviction in 2004 was covered in Scotland so the reporting restriction theory on the lack of coverage nationwide does not hold true.

“Similarly, liberals suggest that the area has often received police attention of a kind which has resulted in ‘harassment rather than protection’.”

I have removed the above reference as it is a tiny minority view and comes from the far left “Campaign against racism and fascism”.

“The idea that the media fails to cover anti-white racism is supported by blogger Anarcho-Akbar, but with a different explanation – that while these crimes are dealt with uncontroversially, the problems in convicting white racists lead to “newsworthy” controversy. He also stresses the importance of distinguishing between racism as individual prejudice and systematic racism. [1]”

I have removed the link to the personal opinion of the above “Anarcho Muslim” blogger whose opinions are moot in any case - there was no difficulty in convicting the murderers of Anthony Walker and the disparity in coverage was clear. I again refer you to the interview on BBC Newswatch. This removal is in line with Wikipedia policy on “Links normally to be avoided,” which includes “Links to blogs, except those written by a recognised authority.”

“Liberals have predictably opposed such attempts to weaken pressures on the police. A BBC report suggests that the real reason for inaction was lack of evidence, as locals were more prepared to make complaints than to give evidence in court." I have changed the “real reason” as this is a personal opinion that this one reason has more weight than the others. In fact, the opinion given in the BBC article is just one of many reasons from one of many sources. Also, I’m not clear on the “weaken pressures” choice of words.

“Attempts to exploit the situation politically have not been limited to the right; advocates of crackdowns have also used it to attack the early release of prisoners.” I have removed the above as it is a side issue and is a politically partisan statement. Interestingly, the person who inserted this did not accuse far left groups or even mainstream politicians of exploiting the case for the purposes of multiculturalism or far left definitions of racism.

External Links

“http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/2081/”

The above article is a far left article, and was also linked to in the “Explanations of the killing” section of this article, which was less to do with the facts of the Donald case than arguing about politically extreme definitions of race crime in general. The article is written by a Politics and Sociology lecturer who questions race crime against whites on the basis that, “Like so much that is labelled ‘racial’ today, this presentation is based on a subjective interpretation of racism as much as objective facts.” His political article on race crime is clearly irrelevant – in the same way the “explanations of the killings” section was.

Again, I'd appreciate some effort by people to comment on whether the BNP and the reaction to them by Scotland's left wing politicians need be mentioned at all. This article was very good a couple of weeks back when the convictions were headline news. Like I said above, there were controversies surrounding the case, but people editing this article with far left material to vent their frustration at the Donald case being headline news is not acceptable. I am disappointed that people allow this to happen without identifying the extreme nature of the edits and going back to a previous version. --Guardian sickness 15:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


I've put a reference to the above article, simply to point out that some commentators doubt that the murder was racially motived, without endorsing the position. Mentioning this as one sentence does not give undue weight to the view: the statements that the murder was racially motivated (rightly) occupy much more space and are presented in a manner that gives them much more authority. The idea that an article on the issue ought to be dismissed entirely because one contributor believes it to be politically biased (seemingly based on it being written by a Sociology lecturer) is absurd, as long as the WP article doesn't endorse its claims. Let's present the information and claims given by various (notible) commentators and let the readers use them to draw their own conclusions. The idea that Spiked is a far left-wing publication is way off the mark: a quick scan of their material show that they sit on the libertarian right and have, many, many time, defended the BNP's right to free speech, written extremely critical articles on anti-racist campaigns and organisation, opposed 'positive discrimination' programmes and resisted what they see as attempts to characterise white working-class Britons as racist.

Of course the BNP's position and activities to it from politicans and unions etc., (barely) left-wing or not, ought to be included: this provoked substatial public controversy and media coverage. It certainly belongs much more that the lengthy section on police responses to gang-activity in general and the opinions of Bashir Mann, which are only tenuously related to the issue at hand.

I've also removed the 'liberals predictibly': it was unsourced and weasel-worded, and the 'predictibly' marks 'liberal' as a perjorative and and suggest that the claims lack authority, and makeing the statement nNPOV. For that matter 'real reason' did not make it nNPOV: it claimed that BBC suggested it was the real reason, not that it was.

I've reworded the bit on the BBC withdrawing the story from it's main bulletin (which I'm not disputing), as 'dropped' suggested that it was removed as part of a deliberate or considered policy, and have included the interviewee's 'defence' that lack of coverage was a result of discrimination against Scotland, rather than whites. That the BBC's coverage of the recent verdicts was much improved deserves a mention, though I've not done this. Finally, I've removed an unreferenced claim dealing with the (unknowable) private motivations of the BNP.FrFintonStack 03:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


You have edited the description “…because the story was dropped from their main national news bulletin three days after the murder, and confined to regional Scottish bulletins,” and changed it to, “…because the story received little attention on main news bullletins, and was largely confined to regional Scottish bulletins.” This edit should at least include the information that the BBC ceased to report on this murder three days after the murder, which is accurate and stated by the interviewer in the BBC Newswatch interview.

If you insist on picking parts of the Fran Unsworth interview for this article then I believe a more balanced representation of her defense of the BBC should be included in the article. I have therefore included more of her comments.

Whether or not you doubt the nature of the “other commentators” politics as far left, the view given in the far left article is a tiny minority view. Wikipedia policy states “We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view, and views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views.” I am not here to engage in a debate on where the far left often happen to agree with Islamic extremists, National Socialists or the BNP on certain issues, but Wikipedia policy should be the guideline and your inclusion of the far left article is a diversion from the facts of the Kriss Donald murder. If you want to represent this academic’s opinions in an article on racism then that is one option for you. As I stated, his opinions have as much place in this article as the opinions of those on the far right have in the Stephen Lawrence article; some on the far right still say his murder was gang related, but they are a tiny minority - whatever their politics.

Lastly, the part about liberals was not my edit, but I welcome its removal. The BBC article states only that this reason was “the problem” for Bashir Maan and the Police. The article does not address other problems or compare them so the reference to the “real reason” is a subjective opinion.

--Guardian sickness 15:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I strongly disagree that the publication referenced is "far left", though that is ultimately beyond the scope of this discussion and indeed, irrelevant. The claim has been made in a widely read publication and its existance thus deserves to be mentioned. The implication that because a view belongs to a member of the "far-left" negates not only its merits but the need to report it is preposterous when one considers, say, the contribution of Noam Chomsky (anarcho-syndicalist) to the field of linguistics or William Morris (Marxist) to architecture and town planning. At any rate, the view is not a "tiny minority view" (which, in my book would be one involving conspiracy theories or referenced in unaccountable publications) but a "minority view". As such, it deserves to be mentioned. As the article stood, it did not in any way violate the Wikipedia policy on minority views you reference above as it did not represent it as having equal weight or authority. In contrast to the view that the murder was racially motivated, which is given many lines and is presented as established fact, the article merely mentioned that some commentators doubt that the murder was racially motivated. The article did not represent the author opinions: it merely stated that they, and opinions like them, exist. That is a matter of established fact, and in my view it is worth briefly mentioning. Please do not removed referenced articles of established fact; please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Information_suppression ("Explaining why evidence supports one view, but under-representing (even deleting) opposing views in order to make an opinion appear more accepted/rejected than it really is.") The article is not comparable to far right views on the Lawerence murder as Spiked is not an organisation with an anti-racist or anti-white political agenda (as I have mentioned, and a scan of its website will reveal, its articles often oppose anti-racism campaigns and multiculturalism), because it is not alligned to a political party or movement and because it is a registered publication with a substantial readership and notible contributors.

Secondly, nowhere in the stream does the interviewer or interviewee state that the murder was dropped after three days; rather, that it was featured on new bulletins only three times. The reason why I included the quote from Fran Unsworth is that when a criticism is levelled, it is a matter of ethics and good grace, not to mention expediency if one wishes to avoid a libel suit, to provide the person or institution that is criticised with a reply. As the article stood after your last edit, there was a strong insinuation that Unsworth was, at the very least, misinformed. That was potentially libellous, and needed to be changed. Your previous contributions show that you believe that the BBC dropped the story because Donald was white. I'm keeping an open mind on the matter and rather than have the article imply that Unsworth alternative explanation is insufficient, I would rather it simply stated the two positions and left readers to make up their own minds. This stuff cuts both ways; on the same day Thomas ap Reese Price was murdered, an asian man was murdered in a car-jacking a few hundred yards away, yet received no national news coverage at all. I am unsure why you included the fact that Unsworth defended the inclusion of the opening of a sports centre. Bearing in mind that she admitted that the BBC had got the coverage of Donald wrong and it should have been included in that bulletin, this represents a false dichotomy; she did not claim that the opening should have been included at the exclusion of Donald. Thus, I'm unsure why that's relevent. I'm also unsure what bearing her ignorance of whether or not Kriss' murder was racially motivated has.

Finally, I have taken no action as yet, but the Operation Gadher/Bashir Mann paragraph does not deal with issues relating directly to Kriss' murder and I believe it should be reduced to a single sentence if it is to be retained at all.

I would welcome thrid party discussion on these matters and thus have tagged the section appropriately to direct attention here and to point out that there is a conflict of opinion. I have also removed the weasel words tage from the top of the article as this issue seems to have been dealt with.

FrFintonStack 05:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


An opinion piece being “widely read” on the internet does not make the view held by its author any more popular, and the author is not a recognised authority on this case, whether or not you think he might be recognised as an expert on something in the future is of no consequence now. The view that the judicial system and mass media have made an underhand attempt to frame the murder in racial terms is not a view that is widely held. It is, at best, one of those views that you might find a political extremist (multicultural Marxist of the far left) ranting about, which is what you seem to have.

To add weight to your claim that the view of the author is not a tiny minority view you claim “The article did not represent the author opinions: it merely stated that they, and opinions like them, exist.” However, the article does nothing of the sort; the article clearly expresses the view of the author throughout.

In fact he is a glorified Internet blogger. You’ll notice not many people seem to be interested in his actual blog either. This is something less than an opinion piece you might see from the likes of Richard Littlejohn. As a parallel, Robert Kilroy-Silk’s opinions on Arabs and Islam were published in a national newspaper, but they deserve no place in any encyclopaedia article on either subject because such views are the opinions of a tiny minority. It is not relevant who read them or what the circulation is of the newspaper he was published in.

You show your support for an undue weight policy by dismissing the relevance of far right opinions based on their prejudice. I am not doing the same, although the roots of Spiked, its far left support for multiculturalism, its predecessor Living Marxism, and even the “Revolutionary Communist Party” are an interesting foundation for their views today. The idea that people who take issue with criminals being charged with racially motivated offences at all, even when they are motivated by race, could comment on any case of racially motivated murder with a lack of political prejudice is laughable. See the Spiked articles on the Anthony Walker murder.

You state, “The reason why I included the quote from Fran Unsworth is that when a criticism is levelled, it is a matter of ethics and good grace, not to mention expediency if one wishes to avoid a libel suit, to provide the person or institution that is criticised with a reply,” but you then express your dissatisfaction with the parts of her response that show her to be ignorant of the Donald murder, and which, you say, insinuate that Unsworth was “misinformed”. Well, actually her own comments display that she was ignorant. It isn’t my non-existant suggestion that irks you, but her choice of words.

Your desire to cherry pick her comments to make the BBC reply look as convincing as possible is not acceptable. Anything she stated in the interview was part of her reply against the allegations made by BBC viewers and I will therefore include them to give a more balanced view of what was said in the interview. You may well think she could have done a better damage limitation exercise for the BBC, but she didn’t; and you cannot change what she said, her ignorance of this case, or the comments she considered relevant for inclusion in her reply to accusations of bias. --Guardian sickness 21:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


I wasn't aware that Wikipedia's policies prevented the reporting of the existence all opinions that are not those of 'recognised authorities'. By 'the article did not represent', I meant the Wikipedia article as it stood before you edited it. The statment was true: the Wikipedia article did not endore the opinion, it merely stated that it existed. It gave it no weight, let alone undue weight. I should also point out here that the view that the BBC did not report Kriss' murder, or that the police did not give it a sufficient response, is hardly mainstream opinion either, yet you appear to have little problem with the article reporting the existence of those views.

As for Spiked's "support for multiculturalism", this is simply preposterous. You are claiming that black is white. Go to their website and read any of their articles on the topic. In fact, I'll make it easier for you: try this one [3], this one [4] (by the writer you claim to be a multiculturalist), this one [5] (ditto)...

It is true that Spiked grew out of Living Marxism which was linked to the RCP. Francis Fukuyama used to be a Marxist, along with most of the rest of the neo-cons. So did Benito Mussolini, Michael Portillo, Lyndon Larouche and most of the architects of New Labour: are you going to argue that they're also members of this 'far-left'? 'Is' and 'was' are two very different things. Spiked are now one of the most consistant advocates of free-market capitalism you're likely to find. At any rate, as I've stated, this is both beyond the reach of this page and irrelevant. I will say it again: the idea that because an opinion belongs to a person of a particular politial persuasion it becomes unworthy of reportage, regardless of it's merits, is absurd. I'm not sure where your obsession with the 'far left' stems from, but this encyclopaedia is not the place to persue your agenda. I will refer you again to Wikipedia's page regarding information suppression. Whether you agree with the claim or not (I don't, as it happens) or like the publication (ditto), the claim was made in a widely read publication whose contributors include noted authors and academics, Times and BBC journalists, members of government advisory bodies, regular contributors to TV and radio discussion panels and a Lib Dem peer. The claim's existence is notable and deserves to be reported. Very simply, do you deny that "some commentators continue to doubt that the murder was racially motivated?". If your answer is no, I will ask you not to remove a statement that is by your own admission demonstrably factually accurate. If yes, I will wonder at which point you took leave of reality.

I have no desire to 'cherrypick' Fran Unsworths words, and I will thank you not to project motivations onto me. I have little to say on the matter other than what I wrote in my last contribution to this page: make an allegation, you print the accused's response. It is a matter of basic ethics. In your last edits, you made the clear insinuation that she was lying (I used "at the very least, misinformed" as a polite euphanism for "lying": at any rate, she stated that she was unaware of the racial status of Kriss' murder; that would have made her uninformed) and that her response was insufficient, by introducing irrelevant swipes. That cannot be allowed to stand. It's also interesting that you didn't regard her lack of knowledge of the racial nature of Kriss' murder or her views on the sports centre as worthy of inclusion until I included her rebuttal. The article reports an allegation and presents the reasoning; the accused responds. Why can't you just leave it there and let the readers examine the respective evidence for themselves?

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "You show your support for an undue weight policy by dismissing the relevance of far right opinions based on their prejudice." Where have I done this? The only "far right" claims I have removed from, or objected to being included in, the article are those that were unreferenced and were previously tagged as such for long enough for references to be provided, or self-contradictory vandalism FrFintonStack 00:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My two pence

Hey, FrFintonStack told me there was a disagreement here and asking for comment (I commented on this page quite a while ago). I don't know FrFintonStack, and I have no specific opinion, "right" or "left" wing about this case. You two have written a great deal above, but the diff ultimately shows not much of a difference of opinion in actual editing. Glancing over it, I would say FrFintonStack has the right of it in the bit about Fran Unsworth, as it's tidier and more to the point, and Guardian sickness is right to take out the bit that depends on the "spiked" ref, which seems to not really meet WP:RS. Helpful? IronDuke 02:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your contribution, IronDuke. (I should point out here that I do not know IronDuke but have invited all those with accounts and user pages who have contributed to this page to join the discussion). I should point out that the Spiked reference does not endorse Spiked's position, which I personally disagree with; it is merely intended to illustrate that opinions of such a nature exist. I believe the article should reflect that.FrFintonStack 03:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

If those points of view are widespread, might it be possible to come up with other sources to support it? IronDuke 03:33, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
There are numerous sources listed in the discussion above and in the archives of the article, but have been deleted by numerous users. I retained the Spiked article as it appears to the most noteworthy source.FrFintonStack 03:55, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Mmm, well, if they are less noteworthy than spiked, it may be that they deserved to be deleted. Does this help any: [6]. IronDuke 04:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
They probably did. I thought a link to the Spiked article would have served as an emblem that such views existed. However, if the consensus is that it is not sufficiently notible either, that's fine, I'll let it go. The Scotsman article is informative, but the only part that suggests the murder was not racially morivated is in the "comments" added by readers, so is definitely not notible. Thanks again, FrFintonStack 17:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Apologies for absence

Sorry, I promised to help more with this article and then disappeared. In fact, I've had a family bereavement which has left me for a while without the sort of energy or patience required for this particular article. I think it's best if I continue to recuse myself from it for the time being, as I'm likely to snap at people. Apologies for having let Wikipedia down. JackyR | Talk 15:03, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

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