Talk:Krav Maga

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[edit] Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art add yourself!

Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art

should add link to Phoenix area krav maga, which has three training centers and 4 out of the nation's 12 certified law enforcement instructors. www.reactdefense.com

[edit] npov?

looking through the internet looks like this may not conform to neutral point of view. ther are also so many anonymous edits looks like one lot of people form one cliquwe mayve written this. hmm Grroin 01:12, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

I think the etymology is backwards (Hebrew is a Right to Left language)... "krav" means close. I've seen this mistake in printed books, too.

Nope, "krav" means battle or fight, as seen in the article itself.

Correct. "Krav" means battle or fight. "Karov" means close. It's an entirely different word.

[edit] UFC?

Anyone know if any Mixed Martial Artist is a practitioner of Krav Maga? Bas Rutten has some backround in it.

Yes, I believe Bas Rutten has learned Krav Maga. The best example I know of, however, is Itay Gil. He has been involved in MMA (Muay Thai, Jiu-jitsu, Judo, grappling, Krav Maga, etc.) since 1969, and was the chief combat instructor of the Israeli YAMAM, the country's most active counter-terrorism and hostage rescue unit. His system is heavily based on his lifelong career in the special forces, where he improvised his tactical knowledge based on what he found worked for him. His unit participated in as many as three missions each day.

As the article mentioned, Krav Maga is a constantly evolving system in Israel, and Itay Gil has his own system which incorporates Krav Maga and many modified MMA techniques. I haven't seen his version/adaptation of Krav Maga anywhere else. But in Israel, the term "Krav Maga" is used very loosely to refer to Israeli "self defense" in its many forms. Just like we call celophane tape "Scotch Tape," in Israel, self defense is often called "Krav Maga" instead of its technically proper "hagana atzmit". There are some fantasatic variations of Krav Maga in Israel, and as the martial arts develop, so too does KM. I believe that due to trademark issues, here in the US, "Krav Maga" only refers to the original stream, which is a particular franchise and system based on the teachings of Imi Lichtenstein. I believe it was Lichtenstein who coined the term "Krav Maga", hence all of the controvery. Bottom line is that there are many streams and schools that evolved out of Krav Maga. To get the big picture, go to Israel and experience them for yourself!

[edit] Injury?

I don't get it... All sources I have on krav maga say it's intended to finish a fight as quickly as possible by getting the adversary out of commission, brutally and lethally being definite options.

Now, the article says, twice, concerning two variants, that one goal of the method is to "avoid injury".

That's downright hard to understand clearly. Does it mean that, like most martial arts, it's supposed to avoid injuries during training? (it can't be during competition since krav maga is exclusively a fighting method, not a sport)... or does it mean that mere injury should be avoided in favor of properly lethal techniques? --Svartalf 17:18, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it refers to avoiding injury to yourself, not your opponent (said he without bothering to log in). -- 84.231.73.147 22:36, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes I practiced for over a year, but I think it fairly evident it means avoid injury to oneself during combat.

In the hardcore training I did in Israel (not the "official" Krav Maga, but one of the many streams), an integral part of our training regimen was "sfiga", translated roughly as "absorption". Basically we had to take high energy kicks and punches to overcome the shock and trauma of real confrontation. This is what we do in army as well. I think that in real fight, you can expect to get hurt. But the key (for civilians) is always stay in control and try finish the fight quickly so that you can get away unharmed.

[edit] Levels?

I'd like to throw a basic summary up here of the levels of Krav Maga (I know that belts don't hold the same degree of importance in Krav as they do in other martial arts, but I think it gives an idea of the training methods to know what techniques are taught to beginners vs. advanced practioners), but I can't seem to find this sort of information anywhere (I've only been doing Krav for a couple months, and focused very much so on the level I techniques, not giving much thought to the next level up yet)... mostly, it seems, because there isn't one unified advancement system. Some schools, it appears, do belts (blue, black, etc), some do levels 1-5 and some do levels 1-3. Anyone out there have any more info on advancement stuff, and willing to share it?

-- These are the Krav Grading levels for the Civilian System:

Practitioner Level 1-5. signified by a Yellow badge with black writing Graduate Level 1-5. Blue badge, black writing Expert 1-5. Gold Badge, red Writing Master 1-3 - reserved for Eyal and his crew who have dedicated their lives to Krav Maga. Practitioners wear a white Krav Maga patch on their leg, Instructors wear a red one. Master wear gold.

Military System: Similar to Civilian but Fighter replaces practitioner and warrior replaces graduate. I dont know the insignia

Close Personal Protection: Bronze Shield, Silver Shield, Gold Shield, Platinum Shield

Security/Police System: no idea in ranks or insignia.

How do I know all this? Because I train in it.

--Skydivemayday 09:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

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Thanks for your updates, Skydivemayday. Looks good. Hope you don't mind that I made a couple slight edits to the references to make them footnotes, rather than external links. Perseverantia 19:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

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No worries mate... Cheers for the tidy ups too, Im still a bit of a n00b here ;) I plan on writing an article about Eyal Yanilov at some stage too --203.217.18.22 03:35, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

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This maybe for your Krav Maga organisation but it isn't used in all systems (which also have civillian syllabuses). Remember there are many types of Krav Maga and many organisations/associations.

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Fair call... These are the grades sanctioned by the international Krav Maga Federation (IKMF). This should be specified and noted if included in the article. --Skydivemayday 21:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

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Does anyone have any problems with me adding this section to the article? Noone has specified that they do. Of course I will add the fact they are particular to one federation. Anyone else that trains or has knowledge of with a different organisation should add their 2 cents here too --Skydivemayday 14:14, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

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The Krav Maga Association of America has five levels before Black Belt: Level 1 (White Belt), Level 2 (Yellow Belt), Level 3 (Orange Belt), Level 4 (Blue Belt), Level 5 (Brown Belt). Levels 1 and 2 cover basic combatives, self-defense and conditioning. Level 3 begins weapons defenses. Level 4 deals with multiple attackers, and Level 5 consists of more specialized security-oriented training. Black Belt training covers things like sentry removal, etc.

Other classes are offered along with basic Krav Maga: Conditioning, TRX Strength Training, Grappling, Strike and Fight (sparring) Levels 1-3, Law Enforcement Training, etc.

There is no official uniform and people wear anything they like, although generally this consists of lose-fitting exercise clothes. Belts are not worn in class. Perseverantia 06:52, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Correct Meaning

As I understand and according to the press releases from the Krav Maga association, they claim the translation is "contact combat".24.60.124.8 00:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] California, USA Police procedure

I did not want to put this on the main page without perhaps the review of some of you more experienced wiki readers. You can post or modify or whatever. My instructer just returned from a police training seminar in California. He told us that while it is not official policy, California officers now look for a Krav Maga sticker on the back of cars they stop. If one is present, they will not approach the car until back-up has arrived. This is because Krav Maga teachs methods to disarm a person with a gun, and is quite effective at it. I have no official references, but I am searching for some. It may become normal police policy. I'm not sure how to take this news either. It's kind of prejudcial, since I feel most martial artists are good citizens (greater ratio than population at least). Then again, it also shows just how bada-- this art is.

Just as a point from what you said, it would seem unlikely that police would call for backup based on a sticker since this would mean they would have to call backup for anyone with this sticker (a sticker not necessarily indicating that you actually practice Krav Maga presumably). This would lead to rather chaotic situations where citizens would be forcing calls for backup just because they put a sticker on their car. Seems unlikely though I suppose it is a possibility. Hydraton31 15:20, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Links

I have trimmed the links section; links to individual krav maga studios don't need to be here. They could actually be construed as advertising, but in any case, that section was much too long. Ckessler 17:43, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arbitrary Link Deletions

While the Links section was certainly in need of some updating and trimming, I think your editing was excessive and arbitrary. Many of the links that remain point to specific Krav studios. I would respectfully request that you restore the Links section to its previous state. Sub-sections would go a long way towards making the section more user-friendly, rather than just removing links you don't like.

Perseverantia 18:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Restored and Updated Links

I've restored the old links but organized them according to region and included info about affiliation. Perseverantia 18:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

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The links section is not meant to be an advertisement for individual KM studios. If someone wants to find KM in Los Angeles or Toledo, OH, they can go to Google, or the page for the national KM association. Ckessler 19:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

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What gives you the right to decide what the links section is for? As a Wikipedian, I find the links useful and valuable, and I do not appreciate that you once again arbitrarily deleted this section - especially when I spent hours working on organizing this. Please restore the links. If you do not, I'll be forced to appeal your actions. Perseverantia 19:15, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

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I don't have the right, but Wikipedia itself does. "Links normally to be avoided Except where noted, the below do not override the list of what should be linked to; for example, if the subject of an article has an official website, then it should be linked to even if it contains factually inaccurate material."

"Links that are added to promote a site, that primarily exist to sell products or services, with objectionable amounts of advertising, or that require payment to view the relevant content, colloquially known as external link spamming." from WP:External Links.

Links to KM associations are fine, pages about KM, fine. Studios exist to sell classes, they don't have any additional information. If they have, say, a history of KM, for example, that would be ok under this rule. Feel free to call in someone else to decide, I'm merely interpreting the guidelines. Ckessler 19:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

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I can appreciate your position, and I'm not trying to be difficult. Can we find some sort of middle ground here? Some of the links you removed do include good info on KM. It would be a shame to lose that just because they happen to be associated with KM studios. Perseverantia 19:30, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

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I've made another attempt at an edit. Let me know if you have any objections. Perseverantia 22:53, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

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Removed "Learn Krav Maga" link, since this site contains precisely the sort of advertising objected to above by Ckessler. Perseverantia 09:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

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I've removed a comment in one of the links regarding the website www.kravmaga-clubs (I am the administrator), it said in brackets that the site was IKMA biased. This is not the case, the order of listing on a page is down to the amount of content that a club/instructor provides - the reason in the USA that the majority of American association clubs list lower is that the KMAA provided me with their database of registered instructors to upload and there were no profiles attached, which is one of the things that the listings 'rankings' depend greatly on (the site is not meant to just be a directory but to help students get an idea/feeling about the clubs and instructors) - it was explained to the KMAA that if their instructors submitted their profile, this would be attached and the 'ranking' recalculated (this has happened).

The IKMA instructors (and I don't believe all have registered, whereas I receive updates from the KMAA, which may suggest a bias towards them if any association), presented in their registration much more detail and so they ranked higher, any club wanting to get a higher position only has to provide an enhanced profile and it is likely (I can't say for definite as the DB spews them out in whatever order) that the algorithmn will rank them higher.

This is all explained on the club registration page.

The site is trying to get away from the 'politics' between association, that doesn't interest prospective students and allow everyone to let it be known that they teach Krav Maga (of any style or association - clubs who can't show affiliation are highlighted).

In light of this if you still feel there is/has been a bias, please contact me through the site with an example and I will take a look.

Many Thanks

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Thanks for taking the time to offer the explanation. Works for me. Perseverantia 19:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This Commando stuff

Apparently some people are changing the commando krav maga section with sources to an advertising section.. Cnb sunfire 01:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Even if this is the case, it doesn't really benefit anyone, including ourselves by putting a childish piece on Commando Krav Maga on our page. I've removed this.

I think Moni Aizik, whatever the 'claims' of his system has the right to use the term Krav Maga but it should be distinguished that this isn't the Krav Maga from the Imi line, which is what I guess we're saying 'proper' Krav Maga is. In Israel though there are many Krav Maga systems (used by the IDF & called Krav Maga) which don't trace their lineage back to the Imi system.

It also seems to contradict a bit what was said about Krav Maga being a generic term like Boxing e.g. we say Krav Maga covers a wide variety of styles/systems etc and then say a system with Krav Maga in its title isn't. I think this may be confusing to the uninitiated and makes us look a little bit arrogant.

Fair enough. On second thought, the original section did look like a bit of an attack on CKM and just as biased as straight advertising. Cnb sunfire 07:52, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Yep, lets get rid of the logo and any marketing spiel - fair to connect through to their page. From what I've heard them say the systems a fusion of Judo, Ju Jutsu & Krav Maga so may be worth putting a note in on this.

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The Haganah and Commando Krav Maga logos are trademarks, and as such I believe they do not belong on Wikipedia. Only "free license" or "fair use" images are permitted to be displayed. (Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:Uploading_images.) Accordingly, I will remove them from the page in the next couple days, unless someone can provide a rational counter-argument and there is general consensus that the images should remain. Perseverantia 08:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Yep, lets get rid of the logo and any marketing spiel - fair to connect through to their page. From what I've heard them say the systems a fusion of Judo, Ju Jutsu & Krav Maga so may be worth putting a note in on this.

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Images have been removed. Perseverantia 15:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links Edit

Changed header title from "Mainstream Krav Maga Associations" to simply "Krav Maga Associations", since there seems to be some confusion about what constitutes a legitimate Krav Maga association. Until this gets sorted, best to err on the side of caution. Perseverantia 08:57, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Commando

This section reads like an advertisement, it should be rewritten or deleted. 24.222.116.79 15:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

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I've edited the "derived from" section and tried to be as fair as possible. To the user at IP 69.196.61.55: PLEASE don't just copy and paste the information from the commandokravmaga.com website again. If you are serious about wanting information about your system on the page, then take the time to write something original (copying from an existing website is against the Wikipedia rules) and avoid the advertising lingo. If this debate continues, we'll need to seek outside assistance to resolve the dispute. Perseverantia 20:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

To the user posting from IP 69.196.61.55: Please stop reposting material copied from a commercial website. Instead, why not offer a constructive edit of the existing material? I will assume that you feel passionately about this and aren't just trying to cause trouble. Therefore, I would ask that you explain your point of view and why you feel the material you are posting is acceptable under the Wikipedia guidelines. Perseverantia 15:51, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I deleted most of the section because it read like total hype and more importantly Commando Krav Maga has its own entry. No need to repeat things in both articles.Peter Rehse 03:28, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

And right back in again. It sticks out like a sore thumb from an otherwise well written article. Have fun with it folks.Peter Rehse 05:15, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I deleted it again, it already has a link in Krav Maga Associations, and its own wiki page that is linked to in the proper section. Even if it wasn't advertising/hype, it is still unprofessional, full-caps spam. Zalotiye 20:25, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Your Input Needed

I had to remove the same changes again. I'd really like to hear comments from other Wikipedians about this. Am I the only one who objects to this material being posted on the Krav page? Please post your thoughts here! Perseverantia 16:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

It may be that whoever is posting this isn't aware of the 'discussion' area - I understand that there is a commando krav maga forum at www.combatsurvival.com. It may be worth putting a post there, explaining what Wikipedia is for and 'inviting' a proper and valid description of the system in the context of Imi's Krav Maga.

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That's a reasonable suggestion. If this continues, I will do as you suggest. Thanks. Perseverantia 04:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

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After viewing the Commando Krav Maga forum, I decided against posting there, as doing so would likely encourage more vandalism of the Krav Maga page. Perseverantia 15:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merger suggested

There is currently a separate article on Kapap. They should probably be merged. It also isn't clear to me how much material in that article is worth moving over here. It might make sense to just make it a redirect. Thoughts? JoshuaZ 15:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

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Given what we're going through with "Commando Krav Maga", I don't think this is the right time to consider consolidating articles. ...Just my two shekels. Perseverantia 15:36, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Krav Maga Japan Link

I'm concerned about the recent inclusion of the Krav Maga Japan link, because:

  • The site is in Japanese. Since this is the English language Wikipedia, perhaps the link belongs on the Japanese Wikipedia. Also, without speaking Japanese, it's hard to know what the site is actually saying, which makes it very difficult to vet the contents as we do with other links.
  • It appears to be a single Krav Maga school, rather than a full association. In fact, they are using the Krav Maga Worldwide logo, so it is likely they are part of that umbrella organization.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Perseverantia 17:18, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bourne Identity

As a researcher of Krav Maga and as I own a "Bourne Supremacy DVD", I'd like to correct the statement that the "Jason Bourne" uses Krav Maga. Matt Damon himself and his trainer; "Jeff Yamada" for both "The Bourne Identity" and "The Bourne Supremacy" quote the fighting style used as Filipino Kali.

Based on the above, I would be inclined to remove the inaccurate comment on the main article. Perseverantia 23:00, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree totally that this comment should be removed. All the promotional material and the DVD features and commentary for both Bourne films state that the art used by Bourne and his assailants is Kali, not Krav. If no-one objects, I'll remove the comment.

Wikkispiff

I've removed the reference. WikkiSpiff 08:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reverting recent edits

I reverted the recent edits by 195.92.44.198. This was not an easy decision to make, since it is clear that the author of this material carefully crafted his/her prose and cares deeply for the subject. However, Wikipedia has strict guidelines against posting original research. Also, I cannot help but notice that the edits came from yet one more person posting Commando Krav Maga material. And finally, the material was posted from an anonymous IP that had never before posted to Wikipedia. I put a short not on the user's talk page and invited him/her to contact me directly if they object to my revert. - Perseverantia 15:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] YouTube

YouTube

This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message here, on this talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material that violates someones copyright. If you are not sure if the link on this article should be removed, feel free to ask me on my talk page and I'll review it personally. Thanks. ---J.S (t|c) 15:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

The links to YouTube are a convenience, but anyone should be able to find those movies by searching that site on their own. I'd prefer to err on the side of caution and not have external links that are possible copyright violations. I vote that the YouTube links be removed. -Perseverantia 16:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a matter of policy... I haven't seen the link myself, so I don't know if it's a copyvio or not. Take a look at it... if it looks like it was made by someone other then the person who uploaded it, remove it. ---J.S (t|c) 20:54, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I removed the movie links from the main page. Copying them here, because they are nice to have. I do not know the current copyright status of any of this material. If you believe anything here to be a violation of copyright, please remove the link.

[edit] Demonstration movies

There are many good videos of Krav Maga by the main original associations, as well as other various associations on YouTube.com

Click on this link for YouTube.com movies:

Movies by various other associations on YouTube includes:

  • Urban Tactical Scenario Training (IKMF)
  • Water Training - "Dive and Fight" (IKMF)
  • Training in Cars - "Rage and Rumble"(IKMF)
  • Krav Maga in Polish Military (IKMF)
  • Commando Krav Maga (CKM)
  • Operational Krav Maga (OKM)
  • Krav Maga Security (IDS)
  • Tactical Krav Maga (TKM)
  • South American Federation of Krav Maga (Brazil)
  • Associazione Italiana Krav Maga (Italy)
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