User talk:Kosovar

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents 1 Messages by Kosovar 2 Comments 3 User:82.35.34.24's behavior 4 Hello 5 Hello!!! 6 Kosovars & Albanians 7 Happy New Year!!! 8 More UNMIK 9 HRE 10 My reply to you, my friend 10.1 Hatred between Albanians and Serbs 10.1.1 Balkan Wars 10.1.2 First World War 10.1.3 Kingdom of Yugoslavia 10.1.4 World War II and Modern 10.2 Kosovo-Kraina 11 Answer 12 Image Tagging for Image:UniversityOfPrishtina.gif 13 Kosovar 14 Slavo-Albanian cultural website 15 Keni humbe 16 Hey

[edit] Messages by Kosovar

Please, add your comments below. Yours, Kosovar 28 June 2005 18:11 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

Add your comments.

[edit] User:82.35.34.24's behavior

I noticed your warning about this user on WP:AIV. It's funny that you should bring him up, as I spent quite a while last night dealing with him. If you'll look at the exchange on my talk page and his, I think you'll find that I finally got him to come around to civility. Because of that, I won't block him at this point, because it seems only fair to assume good faith since he agreed to compromise on the article he and I had been discussing.

His vandalism of your user page was inexcusable, and should he start vandalising again after this point, it will be taken into consideration. Try to work together with him, but if he becomes disruptive again, make a note on WP:AN/I and my talk page, and he'll be dealt with. Ciao, Fernando Rizo T/C 16:56, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Fernando, Many thanks for your assistance. Highly appreciated. Yours, Kosovar 23:03, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

It's my pleasure.  :) Fernando Rizo T/C 02:16, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

• Kosovar, thanks for the heads-up again, but it looks like the situation is firmly in control. I'll continue to keep my eye on the matter. Fernando Rizo T/C 23:55, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hello

Hello, Kosovar. First of all, I would like you to know that I am a Macedonian. There were some unfortunate events in my country, as you must know, that involved enmities between Albanians and Macedonians. I feel the need to assure that I act in good faith, and I don't bear stereotypes against Albanians. Actually, it may sound naive, but I believe that Wikipedia is a good place where these nationalistic stereotypes should be finally put to rest. Why? Because Wikipedia includes both POVs, and instead of engaging in cheap mud-throwing, we can use Wikipedia to build mutual understanding. So let's get to the point:

I have seen your edits to some Albanian related articles, and I was wondering if you could please have a look at the Albanians in the Republic of Macedonia and the Macedonian NLA article? The first one is reflecting the Albanian POV, at the expense of some facts (for example, it claims that the Tetovo University is illegal, and it doesn't mention the Framework Agreement), and the second article... well I did some minor edits that are a bit reflecting to the Albanian POV, and I think it is generally OK, but it could be because I am a Macedonian, so please have look whether that article is reflecting both POVs properly.

I have tried to convince Dori to do a joint review of Albanian-Macedonian related articles, but apparently, he has left the English Wikipedia, permanently.

Also, in future, we can try to work out an article about the 2001 Macedonian War crisis, and about the Ohrid Framework Agreement. It would be mistake that only a Macedonian or an Albanian writes these articles, because both POVs should be included, in accordance to the NPOV policy. Please, I would like to know your opinion about this. It matters to me because I really believe that not only we can contribute greatly to the NPOVisation of this Wikipedia, but we can also make a small contribution to the mutual understanding of the both ethnic groups. Regards --FlavrSavr 02:38, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Forgot to add, I am a student too, so I am frequently off this Wikipedia, as well. That would explain this delayed answer :). I have made some remarks in the Talk:Albanians in the Republic of Macedonia, maybe we can start up there? If I'm not replying to your comments there - that means I'm studying hard at the moment. Regards! --FlavrSavr 01:26, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hello!!!

Good job Kosovar! We have to tell that Serbian nationalist User:Nikola_Smolenski that “University of Pristina” does not exist. The United Nations administer Kosova and they have accepted the university with the name shown on the main article "University of Prishtina". Also, no one is supposed to add a Serbian name for the university because it does not offer studies in Serbian, and a Serbian official name does not exist. This is like adding to Harvard “(Serbian: Harvard Univerzitetu)...”. Forgive me for comparing Havard with Prishtina, but in this case it is not a miss-leading comparison.

Once again, please do not vandalize with those claims that the university was moved somewhere else in Serbia and a parallel university was founded then in Prishtina. If Serbs really need a high quality university like Prishtina, I wish their government could offer them scholarships to study in Kosova’s capital. It would be a very good experience, not only for Serbs, but for nationals of other countries as well to study or work in a city like Prishtina. They would be fascinated by the geniality of its people.--Getoar 05:47, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Te pakten t'i mbajme zogjte qe i kemi ne dore. De juro, faktet tona duhet te vendosen ne nje enicklopedi boterore e jo ato te shkijeve.

Greetings, Kosovar citizen. May I be in any way of your assistence? HolyRomanEmperor 19:13, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

You should register here:[1] HolyRomanEmperor 19:31, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, but no thanks. I prefer not to register, I'm sure you understand. -- Kosovar 02:27, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovars & Albanians

I would like to know if you are enthusiast of establishment of a new nation, the Kosovars? Does it include only Albanians or Serbs as well (is it a heterogeneous nation)?

You should be aware that Kosovo Albanians can not form a new ethnic group because they do not possess the needed elements. They may have their independent country, but they shall always be known as Albanians.--Epirus 02:56, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Getoar, a je shqiptar? Nese po, pse nuk po me shkruan shqip?

Nese je shqiptar, atehere po te pergjigjem shqip: une personalisht nuk jam i preokupuar me çeshtjen e ndertimit te nje kombi apo jo, qellimi im i vetem eshte liria e atdheut tim, Kosoves. -- Kosovar 13:31, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

P.S. E nderrova titullin e diskutimit ne "Kosovars & Albanians"

Hello!!! Where are you??? So, I want to discuss Kosovar history with you, yet you are silent... :( HolyRomanEmperor 19:59, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Greetings! I am at home in Kosova? Where are you? What do you want to discuss? I did not know you wanted to discuss anything with me. Anyways, let me know what's up. -- Kosovar 02:30, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

When exactly did the first human settlers arrive to the soil of Kosovo and what did they leave behind? HolyRomanEmperor 14:51, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Why are you asking me? Do you want to truly learn or are you just asking about my opinion? If you want to truly learn, I am afraid I will have to disappoint you because I am not a historian, so I cannot allow myself to teach others in this subject. On the other hand, if you want to ask for my opinion, the answer is that the first human settlers arrived in Kosova centuries before Christ was born (i.e. BC). There are objects found in the territory of today's Kosova that date back to 5300-4200 BC. Particularly, in Theranda, a location close to the city of Prizren many interesting objects were found dating back to 1st-2nd Century BC.

The most famous historical momument found just outsite Prishtina, the capital of Kosova, in a location called Ulpiana, is a statute of a deity seated on the throne dating back to 3200-3000 BC. This web page has some more details, although the website is not a historical site [2]

Needless to say, these lands were inhabited by the Illyrian tribes. The Dardans lived in Dardania (nowadays Kosova).

Hope this answers your question. -- Kosovar 18:29, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

And also the Roman period... HolyRomanEmperor 14:55, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

The Illyrians fought two famous wars with the Romans. The First Roman-Illyrian War (229 BC – 228 BC) and the Second Roman-Illyrian War (220 BC – 219 BC). Following these wars Illyria (in Albanian: Iliria; in Latin: Illyricum) was occupied by the Romans. A number of Illyrians went on to become Emperors of the Roman Empire. Diocletian being one of them, as you know too well. -- Kosovar 18:29, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I am from Karlovac, Croatia. HolyRomanEmperor 14:56, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Good, I have been to Karlovac before 1990.

Finally, would you be so kind and not edit my user page. It is my user page, and it is me who is the editor of that page. I don't go around editing your user page, so please do not edit my user page. That's why it's called User Page. Kind regards, -- Kosovar 18:29, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I won't. HolyRomanEmperor 15:25, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I appreciate that!

What was your impression on Karlovac? HolyRomanEmperor 15:25, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Last time I visited Karlovac was, if I remember correctly, in 1989 and then I was a little boy. My father had some business links and I used to love going there with him because the people were so nice, very kind and generous. Sadly, as you know, things have changed dramatically since 1989 and me or my father haven't been there since. I believe people have changed too, which is the greatest shame. However, I do have very fond memories of Karlovac!

Did anything interesting happen during Byzantine suzeranity (and during the Avar and Slav breaches)? HolyRomanEmperor 15:30, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

As I told you before, I am not a historian, so, I may not know all the interesting things that happened in history. However, I am a keen learner and a free-thinker, so if you think there is something I should know then please feel free to let me know. And, I thank you in advance for that.

What about the Byzantine period and the Avar and Slav (Serb) arrivals? HolyRomanEmperor 15:31, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Again, enlighten me.

I am currently in Belgrade, Republic of Serbia, State Union Serbia and Montenegro I hope that that is OK with you (as I have heard many things about the Kosovar problems) HolyRomanEmperor 15:40, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

That is perfectly OK with me. Why wouldn't it? May I add that I do not know how you found out about me, or anything, but I would like to clarify that I do not have a problem with any people, nation, city or country. That does not mean that I do not have a problem with people who are driven by hate for "the others", xenophics, racists and hooligans.

I am interested in what seems the most acceptable solution for the unsolved status of Kosovo in your way, and then generally. HolyRomanEmperor 16:07, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

(Un)fortunately, I will not be asked nor will I decide what will the future status of Kosova be. That is an issue that people who live there will and should decide. For me personally, I am a strong believer in self-determination and I will tell you why. Whatever the solution of the unresolved status of Kosova will be, the people who will live with the consequences of that decision will be the people who live there (and those that have the right to live there). So, it is only natural that these people decide themselves what future do they want for themselves and for their children. To me, this is very simple.

Nevertheless, legal status of a country is a very complicated issue, so you cannot solve it with one paragraph or two. Having said this, I think that the main (key) issue is straightforward to solve. However, you cannot expect the people to solve all the remaining issues that come with it. These remaning (smaller) issues will need to be solved through dialogue. And, in fact, I believe that these is what the Ahtisaari-led negotiations will be all about. The politicians will solve these issues by institutionally guaranteeing the rights of minorities, decentralisation, and other freedoms and liberties.

I believe that the status of Kosova should be solved democratically and that means only one thing, i.e. the people of Kosova decide. -- Kosovar 02:17, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

When I go into history, I always point out the best of the best: the Serbian Emperor Dushan has made in the middle of the XIV the Albanians for the first time (he conquered the region from the byzantine empire) a constitutional nation in their own homes. HolyRomanEmperor 15:50, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

He proclaimed himself Emperor of all Serbs, Albanians, Greeks and Bulgarians (all constitutional nations) HolyRomanEmperor 15:56, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunatly, my "ethnicity" and religion prevent me from returning to my home in Croatia; I have been exiled, and my uncle, grandparents and only sister killed by the Croatian Army in 1995. The things that weren't destroyed were confiscated by the Croatian government "...since I voluntarely left..." HolyRomanEmperor 16:00, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Of the 700,000 refugees, only 200,000-250,000 returned, and this wretched Serbo-Montenegrin government thinks that it solved all my refugee status by only giving me a citizenship (in France, a refugee status is resolved only after the victim gets its own residence, job and starting funds) HolyRomanEmperor 16:03, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

self-determination failed in our case. the entire infrastructure of the Republic of Serb Frontier was destroyed, around 11,500 Serbs executed and hundreds of thousands banished (exactly what several grossly corrupted circles in Serbia wanted to do to Kosova in Operation:Horseshoe) HolyRomanEmperor 16:09, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello there. I just wanted to let you know that a few days ago I replied to you, but there was a technical problem with Wikipedia and my post was lost. Anyhow, I will get back to you soon because right now I am very busy with some work. Thanks in advance for your understanding. Kosovar 02:31, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Certainly, my friend. HolyRomanEmperor 13:39, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I can't wait to hear what you said. Hear from you soon! HolyRomanEmperor 13:21, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Happy New Year!!!

...my Kosovar friend and all of Kosovo!!! I would still like to hear much what your answer was... --HolyRomanEmperor 20:33, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Are you mad at me because of something? --HolyRomanEmperor 13:00, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

HolyRomanEmpror, no I am not mad at you. Why would I be mad at you?

I just came back from my winter holidays. I have an important meeting on Thursday. I promise to write you longer during the weekend, if that's ok with you. Sorry for the very long delay. Now, I have to catch up with lots of things. Sorry this is so short.

Also, Happy New Year to you too. The best of wishes for you and your family. Yours, Kosovar 14:09, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks; I wish likeways for Kosova/Kosovo. Just don't forget to write what you wanted (I am anxious to hear) --HolyRomanEmperor 15:49, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More UNMIK

Hi, Kosovar, I'd be grateful if you'd look at United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo and see if you can add more material to it. I've added a section of criticisms of UNMIK – not my position, by the way, but I think criticisms should be mentioned – but I fear the article may have become too unbalanced in that direction. What do you think? Solidarity, QuartierLatin1968 07:01, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Greetings QuartierLatin1968, I am currently very busy with my studies, but I will see what I can do. I think a few things need changing in the UNMIK page, and I will get in touch with you later, ok? Many thanks -- Kosovar 03:11, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] HRE

Hello HRE,

My apologies. It took me months to get back to you, but I am finally back.

1. As I said before, I am not a historian, so I did not know what the Serbian Emperor Dushan did or did not do. What is the significant of making Albanians a constitutional nation in their own homes?

2. If he proclaimed himself Emperor of all Serbs, Albanians, Greeks and Bulgarians, why then do you call him the Serbian Emperor Dushan? Shouldn't he be the Serbo-Albanian-Greek-Bulgarian Emperor Dushan?

3. I am (sincerely) sad to hear about what happened to your family in 1995. I feel sorry for you. However, as you know, I am a Kosovar Albanian and cannot comment on what is happening or happened between Croatia and Serbia. I am sure you understand.

4. I hope all the people who want to return to their (former) homes in Croatia or elsewhere get the chance to return. Too much damage and too much destruction has taken place in ex-YU for any compensation to take place.

5. My Serb neighbour looted my house, he and his family stole everything, even the doors and windows were taken out. He then burned my house using petrol, and finally Serbian Army tanks ruined what was left. I don't expect anyone to compensate my parents for that.

6. There are many differences between Kosova and Serb Frontier (I had not heard of this term before), and I am sure you appreciate the differences. Before the breakup of Yugoslavia, Kosova had clearly defined borders, a parliament, president, police, education system and so on. Things "on the ground" have developed differently too, so I don't think one can compare the two. Every region has its own specifics, and Kosova has its own specifics.

Let me be very blunt with you: no-one can impose a political solution to over 90 per cent of the population of a country. Serbia could not impose a solution (1989-1998), and UNMIK is also unable to impose a solution either (1999-2006). This is why there is sporadic violence errupting in Kosova. Let the people decide, then everyone will know their positions and we can get on with life. It sound brutal, but life is brutal.

P.S. My original comments were longer and more in-depth, but I will write more some other time. Take care. Kosovar 03:11, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Don't apologize. :)

I called him Serbian Emperor because he was a Serbian King before becoming the Emperor of All Serbs, Albanians, Greeks and Bulgarians. I pointed him out to show you a presice moment in the history of the Balkans of perfect unity. There were actually no "ethnic" tensions between the peoples. Additionally, there was no high-rank Albanian nobility before him. The Emperor (almost litterally created Albanian nobility like the Thopias (I believe you heard about them). Then, the mutual Serbo-Albanian history goes all the way to Skanderbeg. --HolyRomanEmperor 18:22, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it is not much of a difference between Krajina and Kosova (next to the same letter at the beginning :) Serbia relinquished Kosovo's autonomy in 1989, right? Well here, 1867, Croatia was a nation-state of two nationalities - Serbs and Croats (please also see ZAVNOH and look at the nationalities part). The 1990 constitution evicted the Serbs and created Croatia a nation-state of only Croats (much like what Serbia did when it relinquished the autonomy of Kosovo). Was there any response in Kosovo? Sure! The Kosovar Liberation Army. Naturally, the same thing happenned here. The tensions grew with one fact - the Serbs wanted to stay in Yugoslavia; the Croats did not; and yet Croatia voted for independence (which was rendered illegal by the way, due to the Serbs' boycott) What would the Serbs do then, other than vote for independence from Croatia? --HolyRomanEmperor 18:27, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

HRE, I was away until today. I am glad you wrote back.

I am one of those people who believe that there is no "centuries-old hate" between Albanians and Serbs. And I am one of those people who believe that there are political problems that need solving, rather than ethnic, racial or religious problems or hate.

However, I am interested to know (learn) why did the mutual Serbo-Albanian history stop with (or after) Skenderbeg? I personally thought that the political problems between Albanians and Serbs started with the withdrawal of Ottomans, not their arrival.

HRE, here is the main difference: Kosova was autonomous in Yugoslavia unlike Krajina. Now, when Yugoslavia broke up the status of Kosova and Krajina were different. Now, don't consider this a personal attack or anything, but Serbia was trying to (i) in one hand take control of the terrirory in Croatia, and (ii) on the other hand, they were trying to deprive the Kosovar Albanians of the same right. If Serbia (or Serbs) wanted to declare independence in Krajina (from Croatia), why did they not allow Kosovar Albanians to declare independence of Kosova (from Serbia)?

Within the SFR of Yugoslavia, Kosovars had more legal grounds to declare independence than Serbs in Krajina did.

Also, the response of Kosovar Albanians was Rugova and the Democratic League of Kosova, not Kosovar Liberation Army. From 1989 until 1998 Kosovar Albanians used exclusively peaceful and non-violent meants of protest. You must not forget this. Kosovar Albanians wanted a non-violent solution to the political issues, and only when it became clear that peaceful and non-violent means do not get the attention of the international community nor Serbia did the Kosovar Liberation Army show up.

Yet again, I do hope that things in the Balkans are beginning to chance and that you will be granted the right to return to Krajina and claim what belonged to you and your family. Unfortunately, we will never be able to get back our loved ones that we have lost and that is the biggest tragedy. We will not be able to get back the time we lost in European integration. Every nation on the Balkans has made mistakes during the 1990s, some bigger and some smaller mistakes, and we must understand once and for all that no-one, absolutely no-one was the winner in these wars and that we have all lost, again some more and some less.

Take care my friend, and I hope to hear again from you. -- Kosovar 14:39, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My reply to you, my friend

Thank you, and I express my graditude for your high respect during our conversation! This is going to be long, so cope yourself :-D.

[edit] Hatred between Albanians and Serbs

Please remember one fact: Skenderbeg is celebrated both among Albanians and Serbs as a national hero! :) With the coming of the Ottomans, a new religion was intriduced, and that is the sole problem. See it like this: Albanian and Serb went aside praying to the same divinity, respecting the same traditions and other.

The religious change was rather drastic. As you know, the Albanians were the people that reached the highest ranks of Ottoman society, and altogether, were the most influence people under the Ottoman Empire. On the other hand, the Serbs were on the bottom rung of the Ottoman Balkans (even though they had numerious consessions). This altogether created a disguisting image: The Orthodox Serbs full of anger viewed all Muslims (which Albanians are a majority) as the enemy, opponent that wishes them nothing good; while on the other hand, the Albanian chiefs were endorsed by Ottoman rulers with religious fanaticism, viewed at Serbs as infidels, and essentially, a needless part of the population. Then Kosovo comes to the picture. Kosovo was the center of the Medieval Orthodox Balkans, Serbian, Greeks and other. And it had one of the greatest world's concentrations of Monasteries in such a little place. As you know, Albanians migrated mostly from the mountainous areas, while the Serbs were forced to leave Kosovo, almost altogether. Additionally, Kosovo was starting to be also an Islamic cultural centre. Kosovo is the place of the death of an Emperor that wanted o enslave Europe in 1389 at the Battle of Kosovo. It had a Serbian population majority (at least relativly) and I already mentioned the bastion of Orthodox Christianity. This created a rather uneasy image on Kosovo, as the Serbs had pretensions to "free" it.

[edit] Balkan Wars

The next bit are the Balkan Wars. Albania was conquered by Serbian, Epirian and Greek troops from the Ottoman Empire. The Albanians wanted their own state, free of any other oppression, and now Kosovo meant a lot to them since its the heart of their national awakening movement (the League of Prizren). Serbia did not receive access to the sea, which angered the Serb government. But all this is insignificant. What is significant is: 10,000 Serbian soldiers from Montenegro died taking the city of Skadar (which is the largest city of the first Serbian statehood, a. k. a. the first Serb capital).

[edit] First World War

The Prime Minister of Albania gave a right-of-passage for the Serb troops to flee to Greece during World War One. Right at the benevelent Premier's dismay, a Civil War erupted in Albania, and various factions attacked the Serbs, while some, favouring union with Austria-Hungary, brought the troops of the Central Powers.

[edit] Kingdom of Yugoslavia

The creation of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes changed the situation greatly. The deal to transport several hundreds of thousands of Islamic citizens to Turkey, which just entered a period when it was desperate for more population was swiftly abandone by the great King Alexander I of George the Black, who not only thus protected the Albanian populace (expecially on Kosovo), but also ended the civil war in Albania by advancing troops to Albania and implasing Zog, the first King of Albania. The Serbian King asked Zog to give Skadar for compensation, but Zog refused, and Alexander respected his decision; Guarranteeing the borders/independence of Albania.

[edit] World War II and Modern

World War II 'forever' sealed the fate of eternal peace and union between Albanians and Serbs. Albania joined Italy's Fascist coalition against Yugoslavia. Zog, on King Alexander's request for old friendships abandoned the Coalition and refused all further demands, almost joining an allience with Yugoslavia. But, Albania was invaded and annexed by Italy, and Benito Mussolini became its King. After the invasion of Yugoslavia, most of Kosovo is joined with Albania. The Fascist Albanian troops had slaughtered over 100,000 Serbian civilians and embarked on a campaign to create an ethnicly-pure Albanian region. Aditionally, the households of Serbs were inhabited by poor Albanians that could't afford a home in Albania proper. This created a huge resent.

After the war, a Democratic Kosovo and Metohija was created. Its rights defined in 1968, when it was created as a full-scale province with "autonomous everything".

Then the nationalist-driven years begin. There were too points: Croatian neo-usaša movement known as the Croatian Spring and the nationalist Albanian movement of the 1970s. Negotiations were held, and the new 1974 constitution had created Kosovo a Republic, only fictinously remaining inside Serbia. This was to the dismay of the Serbian polititians and angered them greatly, for Kosovo was slowly seperating from Serbia through legal ways to the utmost point.

The death of Tito ended all possibilities to keep Yugoslavia. The nationalist-driven Serbian government made plans to respond to both the Albanian extremist-nationalists like of KLA and the democratic liberalist peace-fighters of Ibrahim Rugova (may this great pacifist rest in peace now) with the utmost means: oppression and in general, removal (including forceful) of the ethnic Albanian population. Croatia had evicted the Serbs, creating a Croat-only state, and in BiH the Muslims were tempting for more and more domination over the Serbs and Croats. Slobodan Milosevic responded to this with degrating the autonomies of Vojvodina and Kosovo, which would, according to his plans, eventually become parts of a Serbia for Serbs if you know what I mean...

The rest of the terrifying story you know. Over 500,000 Albanians' lives destroyed. Nearly 300,000 non-Albanians left Kosovo for ever and over 150 centuries-old Churches burned to the ground. The general infrastructure and industry of Kosovo (even next to the fact that it was the least advanced part of Yugoslavia) - generally demolished.

[edit] Kosovo-Kraina

Actually, if Serbia ever planned to annex parts of Croatia, why did it leave the Kraina Serbs (please read the article - it's mine :) early in the war: in 1992. Yugoslavia fought Croatia in 1991-1992 only if you didn't know. It is true that Milosevic planned to annex only the bits that bordered Serbia, but the international community refused. The answer to your question (why didn't they allow independence) is simple. The Croats did not allow independence of the Krajina Serbs. Milosevic prepared a planned war with Tudjamn, in which, as I already said, he abandoned the Serbs in Croatia in 1992. He couldn't peacefully give those territories to Croatia, so he forged a planned war in which Tudjman would ethnicly cleanse the Serb territories. Serbia would receive an influx of over 500,000 refugees, and Milosevic would, nevertheless, seem as a victor!. So Miloshevich then presented it as a trade-off. Krajina for Kosovo. Letting the Serbs be ethnicly cleansed and ethnicly cleansing the Albanians. In the International Community, he had presented that Charter - if Serbian Krajina couldn't exist - why would Republic of Kosova? And oh, why, did he endorce that logic with extreme force.

I must say, my friend, that I hate that bit that you mentioned legal rights. It's selfdetermination. Why not let the people choose? Besides, if you didn't know Kosovo was a province of two peoples: Albanians and Serbs. So was Croatia of two: Croats and Serbs. In 1990, the Serbs were evicted from the constitution, and eventually fired from every political office in Croatia (like happenned with my father). The only difference is territorial autonomy. You should refer to ZAVNOH. The subject were: Serbs of Croatia and Albanians of Kosovo. Regional autonomy - or full constitutional rights? Due to the fact that the Albanians lived concentrated in Kosovo, they were given a territorial entity. In Croatia, due to the fact that Serbs were territorially living in all of Croatia, they were given full constitutional rights.

But look it like this: sure, the Serbs lived better in Croatia than Albanians in Serbia becase they were an equal constitutional nation to the Croats. But: the Croatian Parliament exiled them in 1990, and thus: what did the Serbs have? - nothing. It makes my heart ache, and wish that the decision on that ZAVNOH meeting in 1944 was territorial autonomy (Autonomous Province of Krajina, Autonomous Province of West Slavonia, Autonomous Province of Eastern Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srijem as suggested). Note also: The International community cares only about maps. here they see Kosovo before, all the way to 1944; but they see Croatia - and see no inner borders! Thus, they don't care. I am sorry to point that out, but I believe that you have got the same picture about it.

Do you believe that there is/was a possibiliy for the solution to this problem as: Serbia and Albania? The politicians here (good ones! :) argued from 1990 to today that a union with Albania might be a solution. I don't know if you heard, but the European Union is preparing an Economic Union out of all ex-Yugoslav states (without Slovenia) and Albania soon. By that matter, all states would enter EU at the same time.

Unfortunatly, I will never get back what belongs to my family. The explaination is simple: there is nothing left :(. The only thing that still stands is quitte a mass of land - no, wait! They're building a highway on it as we speak. I was going to Croatia every year in the past few years to visit what little is precious to me (other than my relatives): my sister's grave. The grave (on a Serbian graveyard) was recently raided, and it was not charecterised as something nationalistis, but a misfortunes event. The desecrator was never found. So basicly, I've lost everything in Croatia.

I personally admire Ibrahim Rugova. We have had one of our own types like him: Jovan Rašković

The possible solution is that all Albanians convert to Orthodoxy, or all Serbs convert to Islam. If that happenned, neither Kosovo, nor Albania or Serbia would exist as independent states. Francly, I don't think that they would exist even as Republics. Unfortunatly, that's never going to happen. :S

Read my responce whenever you have time. Take care, my friend! --HolyRomanEmperor 20:39, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

My God, you wrote a whole book!

Look HRE, I read with great interest your comments. I agree with some of your points, with some I disagree. Personally, I view history as a relative science. It is not like, say, maths, where you can conclude with certainty that say 1+1=2. There is a saying that says that "history is always written by the side that wins the war". History is always simplified so that people can understand it easier, and thus many details are omitted.

Now, let me show you what I mean. Your overview of the history of Balkans under Ottomans gives a wrong picture in the fact that it portrays Albanians as Ottomans. Yes, there were Albanians who joined the Ottomans (the saying "if you can't beat them, join them"), but Ottomans were seen as occupiers and many Albanians fought against Ottomans. Ottomans did not allow Albanians to open schools in Albanians language nor use the latin alphabet and many Albanians died for this cause. Also, cities like Shkup (Skopje) were liberated by Albanians from the Ottomans, and this does not fit with your description that Albanians as Muslims were allies with the Ottomans.

As far as the population of Kosova in the middle ages is concerned, the data from these times cannot possibly be accurate. First of all, the "registration" of population was done on religious basis, not ethnic.

But more importantly, even if Serbs were a majority in Kosova (no borders for Kosova at that time), is that really important? It is well known that Serbs arrived in Kosova from somewhere else. They must have taken this land from some other people. It is not like this land "belonged" to Serbs forever, and they must "own" it forever. Serbs came to Kosova they "won" the land, later on they "lost" it. This is the story of history, you win some you loose some. We cannot role back the time to the middle ages and just freeze it there forever. This might sound terrible, but that's the way it is.

HRE, I appreciate that you know a lot about the history, but thousands of Albanians died fighting in Spain, and that does not mean that parts of Spain belong to Albania(ns). Do you want to go and tell to the people of Shkodra that: Sorry, 600 years ago many Serbs came from somewhere in Russia and settled here, and you must now leave the city to Serbs? I find this absolutely amazing.

What the Serbs must understand is that they have moved in the Balkans, they won some territories, later on they lost some of them, but these territories are not Serbian just because some Serbs lived there for some time.

Let me explain what I mean. My family is a village near Prokupje, in southern Serbia. They were kicked out by the Serbian troops sometime in the 1880s. Most people went to Turkey, but my grand-grandfather moved south towards today's Kosova. They were moved a few times, from one place to another, until the beginning of the first world war when Serbian troops had to deal with other problems. Today, my grandparents live in a village in the border between Kosova and Serbia. That's how south they were moved, and that's where they stayed.

All their housing, land and forest was taken away and they were left with nothing. Now, today, I can't go back to the village where they lived and tell them to give us back the house, the land and the forest because it has been 100s of years, and the people who live there had nothing to do with what was happening in 1880s.

The rest is history repeating itself.

The reason why I asked why Serbia wanted to keep control of Krajina but not let Kosova be seperated is because Serbia was seen as playing a double-standards game. The bottom line is, Serbia made too many political mistakes. This came down to Milosevic but one man could not do all that on his own. Serbs played a dangerous game which I call Sve ili nista. They believed that because they were superior in military power they could win every battle, win in Slovenia (8 days war), Croatia, Bosnia and Kosova.

The sad truth is that Serbs allowed a man like Milosevic to come to power democratically, and in fact supported him until he turned on his own people having lost every single war. It was only when the Serbs saw Otpor activists being brutally beaten in Belgrade that they realised that this man must go.

Me and you can talk about history and (dis)agree on whatever historical events, but this will not solve any of the issues that we face today. Kosovars most certainly do not want to join Albania. That would create more problems than it would solve. I also disagree that religion has anything to do with the future. You can practice any religion you wish at home or in the religious sites, but the governments and the state must be secular.

HRE, you have made too many point for me to reply to them one-by-one. All I can say is that I hope and wish you the very best with sorting out all the problems with Krajina and the Croats. As much as I understand you, I cannot do anything about it. I think of you as an educated and sensible man with whom I can speak sincerely and who will not get angry just because I tell the truth the way I see it. An offer was made for Serbs from Croatia called Z4. Why was it refused? Who refused it? Were the people who refused it elected by the Croation Serbs to represent them?

Most importantly, would your life (and the lives of your family) be different if Z4 was accepted?

Also, there was an accord offered to Serbia with regards to Kosova in the Rambuillet talks. Why was it refused? Who refused it? Were the people who refused it elected by the Serbian citizens to best represent their views?

Again, would the Kosovar Serbs live in better conditions today if this accord was signed in France in March 1999? Would the mosques and the churches be destroyed if the accord was signed by both sides in March 1999?

The answers to these questions will show you that the people who are mostly responsible for the situation we are in now, are those people who refused to sign peace agreements and who (wrongly) believed that being stronger militarely can win you all battles (military and political ones).

Best regards, -- Kosovar 13:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Answer

Greetings. Sorry for the book. :)

Actually, if you didn't notice I presented the Albanians as pawns, puppets of the Ottomans.

You sound like I was attempting to prove some legitimacy of Serbia to Kosovo. Or to Skadar. I don't know why you got that (bad) impression. I was only typing historical facts. It is certain that Kosovo was the largest concentration of Serbs in the world (around 50%) as it is certain that Albanians have formed majority, or at least relative majority in todays Tirana with central Albania in those ages. The very vague ethnic border between the Albanians and Serbs during the united Empire was the River of Drim. But just like you said - indeed, why does it matter? - It doesn't! You should read the works of a man born deep in today's Hungary - Miloš Crnjanski, who wrote that the "ethnic" borders always change - and never ever remain the same: defining the existence of "ethnic states" is non-existent and only imaginary.

I have no idea why did you get that image about Shkodra... It is well known that it was the centre/capital of Serbia - just like Prizren, but why did you understand it in that bad way?

I agree with you. Territorial legacy is a political propaganda. Serbs came to Kosovo from White Serbia, in today's Poland, Germany and Czechia. The current Albanian population is even newer, mostly from Albania. Croats in Dubrovnik are new. Serbs in Vojvodina are a most recent population too. Where did all the Turks in the Balkans disappear? They have been moved to Turkey. But how did they appear on the Balkans in the first place - they came earlier. Where did the Germans from Eastern Europe after World War II disappear (exiled)? And how did they get there in the first place: Crusades. But if we count their legacy from the Germanic tribes, then they were even before in Eastern Europe. And where did the Italians from Istria and Dalmatia disappear, or Serbs from Croatia? Or Greeks from Asia Minor. Those things are so relative that they are not worthy of discussion, my friend.

So, Kosovo's people are mostly Albanians. But Kosova will always remain as the greatest centre of Serbian culture in the world. These two things can go with each other with no problems.

Actually, the war in Slovenia was 11 days, not 8.

Now about Z4' - to answer your questions: 1. It was refused because it would create an autonomous Serbian area - a thing that no side (Croatia and Yugoslavia) supported. The deal was that the Serbian population had to be exiled at all costs, so that Miloshevich could become a "hero" and dispatch all those Serbs to Albanian homes in Kosovo. Plus, he received Tudjman's support that way. 2. It was refused by Slobodan Milošević and his lackeys. 3. The people who refused it weren't elected by any Croatian Serb at all. I hope that this finally gives you the picture that I mean.

Life for my family wouldn't have been different. We were forced to leave in 1991/1992, in the heat of war. The treaty stated that only the Serbs that left in the late stages of the war would be allowed to return (I suppose they meant post 1993).

I'll wait impationtly for your reply, my southern neighbour!

P. S. - you didn't express your attitude on Serbia and Albania? Best regards as well! --HolyRomanEmperor 16:51, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

HRE, my apologies, I could not write earlier.

It is exactly that presentation of Albanians as puppets of the Ottomans that I objected in the first place. Albanians have fought for the liberation from the Ottomans just like any other nation, and it is not correct to describe them or think of them as Ottoman puppets. Yes, there were Albanians who joined the Empire, but so did the Serbs and in fact some Serbs even sided with the Ottomans in the "Battle of Kosova" by not taking part in the battle. So, this "simplification" of the history is not helpful and indeed leads to some people believing that fighting Albanians (or Bosniaks) today is equivalent to a sweet revenge agains the Ottomans. I am sure you have seen footage of General Karadzic claiming that "Srebrenica was finally liberated from the Turks" when he took control of that city. We can disagree on this, and that's no problem, but if you read the Albanian history you will learn that Albanians have continuesly fought against the Ottomans since Skenderbeg -- sometimes with more success sometimes with less.

I don't understand why do we have to discuss about Shkodra or Prizren when, as you say, it does not matter if Serbs were a majority there 600 years ago. This is why I asked what do you want to say when you said that "10,000 Serbian soldiers from Montenegro died taking the city of Skadar" and you said that that was significant? This is contradiction in terms!

No-one is saying that Kosova, or Prizren or Shkodra or ... cannot be "the greatest centre of Serbian culture in the world". No-one is trying to erase Serbian history in Kosova. To the contrary, we think that it enriches our lives, and that's the way it should be.

HRE, you seem to have a biased view of historyin Kosovo however. You say that Kosovar Albanians came to Kosova after Serbs settled there, and you also say that "Fascist Albanian troops had slaughtered over 100,000 Serbian civilians". This is, frankly, rubbish. 100,000 (read: one hundret thousand) is a laughable figure, it really is.

Let me just prove you here that you areguments are fundamentally flawed, and then you will understand how "I got that bad impression". Go and check the figures of Serb population in Kosova from the Serbian government census before and after the Second World War. First, in 1931 the Kosovar population (according to Serb statistics) was 552,064 of which 347,213 (62.8%) were Albanian. Second, in 1948 the Kosovar population (according to Serb statistics) was 727,820 of which 498,242 (68.46%) were Albanian and 171,911 (23.6%).

You do the maths, but it is laughable to say that 100,000 Serbs were "slaughtered".

It is statements like this that make me get bad impressions.

With regards to Z4, only people who rejected that plan know why they rejected it. Those are the people who carry the burden of responsibility on their shoulders, so I suggest you go and speak to them about your problems because I, unfortunately, cannot help. This plan was presented to the representatives of the Croatian Serbs, and the final responsibility lays with them. These people must have had the support of the Croatian Serbs, elected by vote or not, otherwise no-one would have bothered drawing up these plans.

We will never know whether your life and the life of your family would have been different (whether you would have been allowed to return), but one this is 100% certain, the life of the majority of Croatian Serbs would have been much better today had that plan been accepted by the Serbian side.

Anyhow, I am glad we can communicate and discuss in a civilised manner, even though we have different opinions in certain issues. I respect you and I sincerely wish you the best is sorting out your problems with Croatia, your right to return, property rights and so on.

Last time I forgot to answer your question about Kosova joining Albania. I hope this was your question. Well, I am not a supporter of this idea. I think that such an union would create more problems that it would solve, and I frankly don't think that this would be a workable solution. In fact, not only that I am not a supporter of any such idea, I am against such an idea first and foremost because it would not solve anything and would just give us further headaches.

All the best, Kosovar 13:00, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image Tagging for Image:UniversityOfPrishtina.gif

Thanks for uploading Image:UniversityOfPrishtina.gif. The image page currently doesn't specify who created the image, so the copyright status is therefore unclear. If you have not created the image yourself then you need to indicate why we have the right to use the image on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you have not created the image yourself then you should also specify where you found it, i.e., in most cases link to the website where you got it, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the image also doesn't have a copyright tag then you must also add one. If you created/took the picture then you can use {{GFDL}} to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the image qualifies under Wikipedia's fair use guidelines, please read fair use, and then use a tag such as {{fairusein|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Wikipedia:Image copyright tags#Fair_use. See Wikipedia:Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use. If you want the image to be deleted, tag it as {{db-unksource}}.

If you have uploaded other images, please check that you have specified their source and copyright tagged them, too. You can find a list of image pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any unsourced and untagged images will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion.

This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. If you have any concerns, contact the bot's owner: Carnildo. 17:50, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovar

I admit that I made a terriying error when I called the Albanians as Ottomans' marionetes. I apologize, Kosovar, ol' pal!

Please don't insult the Kosovar Serbian massacre in World War II. Do you not know that nearly all of those over 150,000 Serbs came to Kosovo after the Second World War? During the war, most Serbs were either killed or exiled. It was Tito's Serbian recolonization of Kosovo. But, as we see, he didn't finish it. :) --HolyRomanEmperor 19:42, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

As for the ...Prizren or Shkodra... bit; I don't see the point in arguing smth that we both agree in :D. Sadly, you misunderstood the 10,000 falled soldiers part. While I was explaining the ethnic hatred build-up between Serbs & Albanians, you might notice that I placed that on the list of Serbian (Montengrin, in the modern sence of the word) hatred towards Albanians. "Skadar" was a Serbian metropolis for over 8 centuries - and 10,000 Montenegrin forces died at the battle for the city. As we can see the ethnic map after the Ottoman fall, none of the state borders were "ethnic"; they were "who cought the most". Thus, King Nikola I Petrović-Njegoš of Montenegro expected to keep the city, but upon Austro-Hungary's taking, it was given to its majority population - Albania. The Serbian forces had to withdraw from the city forced by the Great Powers - so this is one of the "clicks" that fused both hatred towards Austro-Hungary (which would be seen in the First World War) and Albanians in Montenegro. --HolyRomanEmperor 20:14, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I think that you're not very familiar with the Serbian Krajina situation - let me explain. There were three governments: two autocratic & one democratic. The first was a transitional government of self-imposed both good-hearted & corrupted monstrous people. It ruled Krajina in the Croatian War of Independence (1991-1992). The second government (1993-1994) was 'democratic', elected by the Krajina Serbian people. It surrendered all mass-destruction weaponry to the United Nations; signed the Wance-Owen peace - which stopped the war and put Krajina under UN protection; stopped using the Yugoslav dinar because SR Yugoslavia was under sanctions and a a Krajina dinar was created - which revitalized the economy. The first government held a referendum to join Serbia - this was characterized as a movement to create Greater Serbia - so this government dismissed it & conducted a successful referendum for independence from Croatia. Krajina was defended by the JNA & various Serbian paramilitary units - all commanded from Belgrade - yet again characterized as a Greater Serbian movement - so an independent Krajina Army was created & reformed. Please read Operation Medak pocket - that one and hundreds of other operations were conducted by the Croatian Army that constantly kept violating the United Nations (the same if Serbia would attack Kosovo once & a while) - the UN amassed a figure of more than 7,000 Serbs missing by the end of the operations and 300,000 Serbs displaced - despite UN protection? --HolyRomanEmperor 20:18, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Here, please see Operation Medak Pocket. Then, the third government was imposed by the Belgrade Miloshevich authorities - the third government gave the entire Serbian Krajina funds to the Jugoslovenska Narodna Banka - a vast figure of several hundreds of millians of German Marks. Tell me, why would they do that? Naturally - you can guess what followed - the Krajina dinar had faltered after "strangely" again being modelled after the Yugoslav dinar. It was replaced by the German Mark - and - believe it or not - over 90% of the Serb Krajina population was unemployed. --HolyRomanEmperor 20:25, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Krajina received over 100,000 refugees from the rest of Croatia - so the government promoted a terrible nationalistic propaganda - forcing its 100,000 Croats to leave - so that there would be place "for the Serbs to settle". It even again (but secretly) subjected the Krajina Serbian military to the Yugoslav High Command in Belgrade. What followed - is that the UN forces were exhausted by frequent Croatian attacks - so much that they didn't renew their protectorate in 1994 - bur abandon the Krajina to the Croats. After it, Operation Flash followed that finally ethnicly cleansed all Serbs from (Western) Slavonia. The UN attempted to come to a peace - suggesting another peace treaty (since the UN broke the first peace treaty by no longer protecting Krajina - contrary to the Wance-Owen's plan - which was, by the way, refused by the Croatian side). The Z4 was refused by both the Croatian side & the Miloshevich's puppet goverment - but in the last second, Tudjman's side accepted the treaty - seeing that the other side has already fallen. The Z4's only purpose - actually became - the justification for Operation Storm.

Do you see now, my good Arvantic friend? --HolyRomanEmperor 20:32, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

However, let me please disagree with you one matter - you said No-one is trying to erase Serbian history in Kosova - as much as what I am about to say might seem generalizing - I asure you that it isn't. 156 Churches were destroyed. The greater part of those are centuries'-old cultural heritage. The anger-driven Albanians that conducted that - must've had no other dricing that an attempt to eradicate the Serbian historical presence within the area. --HolyRomanEmperor 20:37, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Slavo-Albanian cultural website

Hey, why don't you have a look at the historical/cultural/linguistic Allience of Slavs and Albanians: ПРОЈЕКАТ РАСТКО - СКАДАР PROJEKTI RASTKO - SHKODЁR. It contains everything you'd ever want to know about Albanians, Serbs, Skadar & similiar subject (good thingies). :) --HolyRomanEmperor 14:50, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

There, you will see what really Serbs think about Albanian-Slavic relations, not what most people think because of Slobodan Miloshevich & his company. --HolyRomanEmperor 14:53, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and you said: As far as the population of Kosova in the middle ages is concerned, the data from these times cannot possibly be accurate. First of all, the "registration" of population was done on religious basis, not ethnic.

That is actually applied to the Ottoman domination - we have percise ethnic censi before Bold textand after the Ottomans. As for the Middle Ages - well, it wasn't a habit to conduct population censi at all back then. :) --HolyRomanEmperor 23:59, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Keni humbe

Pershendetje vellezer e motra. Ka kohe qe shume pak po paraqiten njerez qe jane dashamire te te ardhmes se Kosoves ne sajtin Kosovo. Nuk e di nee dikur ne histori eshte dashte te jemi me te bashkuar se tash. Ju ftoj te vini atje, edhe te bashkepunojme se bashku e te i kundervihemi armiqve te te ardhmes se Kosoves, qe jane shume, jo vetem fqinjet tane veriore. Ju falemnderit, Ilir pz 19:02, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hey

How're you doing? --PaxEquilibrium 22:23, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I thought you left the WikiWorld. I am busy, and have been so for a while, and I find all this Wiki stuff too useless to come here more often. I just send you some greetings at Talk:Kosovo page. Nothing personal, I just think we have different opinions in certain issues and we should be able to discuss them openly. Anyways, get in touch if there is anything I can help you with. Yours, Kosovar 18:55, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

? Wha.. why have You grown so angry? --PaxEquilibrium 01:36, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

PaxEquilibrium, I replied again in Kosovo Talk Page. Believe you me, I am not angry, not at all. I just simply strongly disagree with some of the issues. I hope we can still continue to have discussions in a civilised and human manner. Best wishes, Kosovar 21:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but I can't discuss any more. It's a too disgusting subject and You're not being really nice. No offense intended - bye. --PaxEquilibrium 23:45, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

PaxEquilibrium, people have different opinions, that's human nature. And I did not mean any offence, and no offence taken either. I defend my opinions strongly, that does not mean that I am attacking you personally, but neither does it mean that I need to be really nice. Anyhow, take care. Kosovar 02:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

But aren't personal opinions irrelevant completely here? :) Anyway, yes you have to be nice: please read WP:Civil and WP:NPA. That's it. --PaxEquilibrium 13:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)