Talk:Konigun Ninjutsu/1
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I'd like to mention that this is the proper place for any Konigun member etc. to discuss the legitimacy. Reason being that Wikipedia is neutral ground and can be changed by anyone. Also, Ashida Kim at one point sued Wikipedia because "his" page said that he was not a real Ko-Ryu. He lost the lawsuit and in return, he put Wikipedia on his "Shit List." This is one of the few places on the internet where Konigun will not have the ability to bully their way into shutting people up.TrueGamerOmega 18:10, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
- I am the attorney for the Wikimedia Foundation. The above statement about Ashida Kim allegedly suing Wikipedia is not true. Be careful what you say about WMF and legal issues. You would be well to take your own advice about what information needs to be "verified".--BradPatrick 20:03, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
In addition, anyone who posts here should post in the appropriate section(or create one if there isn't) instead of posting at the top just so that everyone can see what they posted first. With the exception of any general statements about the Wiki page or this talk page. TrueGamerOmega 17:41, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Contents |
[edit] Discussion of Konigun's legitimacy
This information needs to be verified. That is why I have it posted as "claims." That is not an incorrect statement.---TrueGamerOmega
It seems to me that this claim is a bunch of bull. The only reference to this Shidoshi Saija fellow is from this founder Bryce Dallas. It seems that he made this up. The only remaining ninjutsu I have seen in my life overseas is the Iga-Ueno Ninja Museum and that is primarily a show and dance. Plus, the importance of Kagoshima in the world of ninjutsu is easy to imagine: Kagoshima is at the back end of Kyushu, there ARE was no ninjutsu history there. Who needs to assasinate fishers? --s7rugg1e
I agree. I myself believe that Konigun is not legitimate. I have a variety of reasons for believing so anyway.
1. They have no Japanese dojos that I have heard of. Isn't the style originally from Japan? 2. Mr. Dallas is the only person in Konigun who has seen, or has contact information for "Saija." Even people who have been in his style from the 80s have not met "Saija." Mr. Dallas's claim to one Former Meijin Tracy Stephens was that Mr. Dallas told him that he was "not honorable enough." Even if he did exist that would be the biggest ego on a soke I've ever seen. 3. Mr. Dallas has a rank. When a person inherets being the head family they lose the rank and adopted the title of "soke." I have never heard of a legitimate Japanese style doing other than this. 4. Mr. Dallas has no records(or any records anyone has seen) of the style's legitimacy or heritage. I thought Japanese people were very keen on keeping paper records of everything? 5. They use Sashes instead of belts. Even Bunjinkan uses belts, only Chinese styles use sashes. 6. I have read that Ninjutsu usually resembles Jiu-Jutsu.
I have a few more reasons but I do not feel like stating them at this time. For more information on Konigun go to www.ebudo.com. --TrueGamerOmega I again strongly suggest that this article is modified to read that Konigun was created by Dallas, and that he created the story of Saija. The whole description of the art is sounding more and more silly as evidence mounts. I have never heard of the Japanese last name "Saija" and because some other websites list him as "Saija or Saiga", I am even more suspicious because that phonetic ambiguity is NEVER present in Japanese names. If there is no objection, I ask for someone to edit this column. I will as soon as I get the time.
A lot of martial arts types have no real experience overseas, and it certainly is hard to verify, but Japanese sites do NOT list this "Saija" fellow, so I reiterate that it is possible Dallas is claiming a false legitimacy. --s7rugg1e
I very much agree with you. But if I wish to post it as being neutral to the discussion. In hopes that I will not have to get into an edit war with members of Konigun. I just added more information to both sides of the discussion to the page. I also added the links to e-budo.
Something else I find suspicious is the lack of a first name for "Saija." Presenting only a surname is very suspicious and ambiguous.
Note to members/allies of Konigun who are editing the page: I am trying to keep the page NEUTRAL on the Konigun discussion. My believes aside I want to keep it in the center. Your editing it to represent what you see as the "truth" in something so highly discussed is something that makes many of you seem untrustworthy and unfit to have a PROPER debate. --TrueGamerOmega
OK, I checked the website and its history, and the whole thing is a facade. Most people know nothing about Japanese history, but anyone with a rudimentary knowledge knows that the Yamato court had little relation with Korea, and that Buddhism was CREATED around 500 B.C. in India. It did not reach Japan until 600 A.D.
I have absolutely no interest in Ninjutsu, nor have I ever participated in martial arts, but I do have a keen interest in keeping people away from distorting Japanese history simply because some people know nothing about it and are vunerable. Go read some Hattori Hanzo manga and leave all this 'deadly ninja' crap alone.
Might wanna check the guys PhD too.
-s7rugg1e
I am a great martial arts fan. I am take martial arts. The first martial art I took was from Konigun. It helped me realize my love of martial arts. When I started having doubts about Konigun I researched it on the internet. I find the truth to be very important. And I wish for others to know the truth as well.
PhD? Yeah right, considering almost all of those certificates are signed by the same people...Plus the degrees are to an unacredited school so whether or not they are real, they still aren't from a trustworthy school.
Lastly, there have been many students of Konigun worried about their legitimacy but are afraid to ask their instructors or Mr. Dallas about it. I find that to be highly suspicious. Plus, many former Konigun students have made claims of incidents from members of Konigun. This stuff makes Konigun seem smore like a martial arts cult than a Ko-Ryu. I wouldn't want people to come ot Konigun and lose their passion for martial arts because of some martial art cult. --TrueGamerOmega
These are CLAIMS, I am not stating that this is true. Obviously the ally of Konigun did not READ the page on Soke. Soke DOES NOT mean "founder." Soke means "headmaster." So Mr. Dallas does not wish to be know as Headmaster.
I created a counterpoint section so Konigun members can post their counterpoints to the claims. There is no need to have an edit war.
Also, it seems more and more to me that Konigun is a cult. The last edit had ALL references to E-budo forums(including the links) removed. Ah, so you are trying to hide this discussion from people? Plus the edit included that there is no PUBLIC listing on any Japanese dojos of Konigun. I have never heard of any martial art trying to *hide* it's Japanese dojos. Stop acting like a cult and people will not treat you like a cult.
Lastly, Konigun allies should be glad that I did not state any specific claims or rumors about any of these criminal/illegal things that some people have claimed. The reason I do not is because they are just that CLAIMS and RUMORS. I have also not listed the criminal charges of assault and counterfeiting that are on Mr. Bryce Dallas.
This article is constantly being edited by a member of Konigun to make it conform to the point of view from Konigun. I wish to make the article neutral but the person editing will not dissist. --TrueGamerOmega
I have added that Dr. Dallas will be travelling to Japan to support his claims of being a traditional Japanese art. This is a fact and is totally neutral. Also, people who have looked up Konigun can find for themselves the threads on different martial arts websites. Those threads are not neutral, and should NOT be posted here, especially by someone trying so hard to maintain neutrality. If you want debate, Kyle, call me.70.115.79.240 01:44, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Mr. Dallas has made many promises on going to Japan in order to prove his legitimacy. And yes, people can search for themselves and find the thread on Konigun. But then again they can search and find anything Wikipedia has to offer if they search. And the reason the threads are not neutral is because only a few Konigun members posted on there. Also, many of the claims on the thread could not be rationalized by Konigun. But removal of any mention of E-budo seems just like covering up.
I have decided to make a seperate page for DISCUSSION of the Konigun legitimacy. Please do not go and change it unless you post on the Talk section FIRST. I will set it to be edit protected so that the content doesn't become and edit war. Is it strange that the edit war on here reminds me of the Ashida Kim Wikipedia problem?
Also, I do not like to debate over the phone because I don't like to talk on the phone very much. If you wish to debate e-mail me at omegatruegamer@yahoo.com --TrueGamerOmega
Please stop vandalizing this article be removing information that has a source and replacing it with your own opinions. As I do not believe Kyle, that you speak the Kagoshima ben I do not think that you should be stating your opinion as fact, when that opinion is born out of ignorance. The facts that were added are neutral, correct, and the information I have are from someone native to Kagoshima. So please stop trying to turn Wikipedia into an outlet for e-budo and their "holy war" of trying to destroy and discredit any and all ninjutsu styles that are not a part of their organization.
I am not the one who has done the current revisions. This is the acts of someone else. Whenever I am on my home computer I edit things using my username. Also, I was not using Wikipedia as an outlet of E-budo. The claims that I had placed on there were actual claims from people of why they believed that Konigun was not a legitimate Ko-Ryu. I'm sorry that Konigun cannot rationalize every claim. E-budo is not an organization. It is a forums site for people to post their opinions, information, etc. on any kind of Japanese martial arts. The people on that forums site(like Don Roley for example) have delt with many false ninja styles before(like Ashida Kim) so I would believe that he has some knowledge on differentiating a false style from a real one. And like always, you refuse to discuss things with me or any person who disagrees with Konigun's lineage. Why? If you stop and debate thngs normally and rationally then Konigun will be taken more seriously. Thank you.
Also, don't preach about opinions brought about due to ignorance. You've never met Saija -(No one has, the guy is a figment of Bryce Dallas' imagination, whom I'd love to see turn up in court, haha). You don't speak fluent Japanese. Have you ever been to Japan? Have you ever trained under any of the Bujinkan styles? Ask yourself these questions... --TrueGamerOmega
Kyle you don’t speak fluent Japanese, you have never met any major names in this or any Martial arts style, and you have never been to Japan. I have been teaching martial arts since you were 12 years old and have studied 10 different styles. You don’t have to ask your self any questions - we both know your martial arts experience. This article is not "yours" it is not under your "control" or "protection" it is free and available to any and all points of view not just yours and that of e-budo. Which if you will notice no longer carries their slanderous message. This is probably due to the fact that they are under civil litigation and know that they will probably lose this case, and are following the advice of their attorneys to avoid worsening their troubles.
I do agree about the translations being weird because of the Kagoshima dialect. I have read on Wikipedia itself that the dialect in Kagoshima is sometimes referred to as "unintelligible." I am currently trying to learn Japanese because it is interesting to me. Also, I wish to go on a trip to Japan. Something which Mr. Dallas promised at one point but I never saw it. Also, the number of styles you've trained in makes no difference. It is quality not quantity. I do not claim that this article is "mine" or under my "control" but I do not wish for things to become a content dispute again. Because I have no way of contacting you other than here it is hard to come to a mutual compromise. And my current compromise is simple and makes sense. As long as it is discussed on this section then changes can be made. Thank you for actually posting on here when you changed it. That way a consistent form of communication can be achieved. Also, it will make things much less biased. I am not stopping people from posting their points. But now to try to stop valdalism and the previously mentioned content dispute I wish for people to post here first. I do agree that they probably removed the messages in order to prevent any more legal troubles, and also to make sure no other members of E-budo are targeted for the suit.(Aggresively targetted it would seem, with families being victimized and shouted at on their own front door steps) Mr. John Lindsey most likely still has the threads archived in order to keep track of all that was said. I'll have to ask him. But for them to lose the suit it must be proven that Konigun is 800+ years old. (easily done!-Konigun was invented by Bryce Dallas) With the exception of some of the random slander that other members posted on that thread. Which I do agree was immature. I do think that the previous edit should've been changed. It was much bias against Konigun. And the person did not discuss it. Also, don't call me by my name. I do not know who you are. I can guess who you are but I do not know exactly. --TrueGamerOmega
You want to say that schools that are unknown in Japan were converted, you best have some sort of proof. There is no proof for the Konigun's version of events.
It seems to me that the top should not read that its status as a Koryu is being debated. The fact of the matter is that you can't seem to find evidence that it is a Japanese style at all.
I agree with you. I vehemently believe they are not an ancient style. But because there is still discussion. The page must stay neutral. Although, considering that Konigun will not even discussing why the page needs to change before changing it, it seems the page will be biased anyway. Since they won't discuss it I believe that it is because they are wrong and they do not wish to admit it. So they disappear...like ninjas...so to speak... TrueGamerOmega 05:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
But before we discuss if they are an ancient Japanese style, we must determine as a fact that they are even a Japanese style. So far, no proof that this art existed prior to its creation by Bryce Dallas. Thus, Japanese instead of Koryu would be a better choice IMO.
Excellent point. I'll change it to say Japanese art instead of Ko-Ryu. If you think my wording needs to be improved, feel free to change it.TrueGamerOmega 23:15, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Identity theft
Someone has broken into Konigun email accounts and stolen business information, bank account information, and personal information. This matter has been reported to the police and the FBI, and is currently being investigated. Luckily, whoever did it made mistakes that will lead to their identity. We expect it to be dealt with quickly and effectively. No one in Konigun Ninjutsu has resorted to criminal actions to resolve this matter, but someone has. The next time you start thinking of yourselves as the innocent ones, think again.
Do you have proof of this happening? I would also like to know who have the last sentence directed at. Because it greatly makes no sense.TrueGamerOmega 23:15, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
There is proof, or the police and FBI would have laughed at us instead of taking the case. The last sentence was directed at a group of people who seem to think they are above the law and can do no wrong, not at you as an individual (hence "yourselves"). Your last sentence could use some revision as well.
Is there any proof that can be viewed? And no, I will not change my last sentence because I write/type/etc. how I speak. I speak in a perculiar dialect. :P TrueGamerOmega 00:20, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I didn't ask you to revise your statement, and nobody is trying to prove to you that anything was broken into. I think we'll let the police worry about this one. I have the case information card sitting right here. If you don't believe it, no one cares. I was just letting people know what was happening, and how low some people will stoop. Oh, I write like I speak as well. It's pretty common practice.70.115.79.240 00:58, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Members of the Konigun (Conning One) have been found guilty of breaking-in and stealing stuff in the past, right? and I recall a certain member actually recieved a prison term for his 'vigilante' activities? Clearly what goes around comes around.
How do we know that the Konigun guys didn't falsify police reports in light of all the recent hullabaloo?
That's one reason why I wish for proof. Because one can easily say anything. Also, I'd like to know why this supposed crime is very relevant at all? And person above me, please sign your posts by using 4 ~ Thank you. TrueGamerOmega 04:15, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I think I smell a red herring. What does any of this have to do with the information in the article? It is obviously an attempt to divert attention and discredit anyone who does not believe the Konigun's version of events. It would seem that the Konigun proponents are unable to deal with verifiable fact and tossed this out to cover themselves. If there is evidence left behind, then the person who did the crime will be caught. Until that time, I do not see a reason to have mentioned it here. Of course, if no arrests are made, then it will be pretty clear that this story has no merit.
Also, IP addresses are easy to track so if this actually happened it would take little effort to find the criminal. Geolocation by IP address is not difficult. TrueGamerOmega 06:11, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Even if they did get iden thefted, that doesn't mean it has anything to do with any of this. 'Course, there's no point in them talking about it at all other than what TGO was saying about them trying to change the subject. Sad... Sad... Sad...--M.C. Ice Tray 14:51, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Continued Discussion
In order to continue this discussion...
Why does Mr. Dallas not use the title of Soke? Once a person becomes Soke they don't have a rank in the style anymore. Soke does not mean "founder" the Konigun member previously stated. It means "headmaster" "Head of the family" or "Grand master." The term that would be appropriately placed on a founder is Shodai Soke. All of this can be found on the Wikipedia page on Soke. TrueGamerOmega 18:29, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
My two bits " コニグンに該当するページが見つかりませんでした。" There is no reference to Konigun
http://www.google.com/search?hl=ja&q=%0D%0A%E3%82%B3%E3%83%8B%E3%82%B0%E3%83%B3&btnG=Google+%E6%A4%9C%E7%B4%A2&lr= There is no Katakana 'Konigun' on Japanese Google. s7rugg1e 14 February 2006
Thank you for that. The fact that Konigun does not show up in even the simplest research shows that Konigun is not legitimate. You can find incredibly minute things on the internet. I know, I am very good at researching things on the internet. I am currently taking Kenkojuku Shotokan-Ryu and I was able to find about 50 related pages on it easily. Whenever I search for Konigun, all the pages either link to their site, one of the forum site discussions, or R.A. Hawkins site which seems to be mirrored by about 50,000 people. Absolutely nothing showing any form of lineage. If people can trace the lineage of things like Tai Chi Chuan, then Konigun should be able to be traced.
Another thing is that there seems to be no sub-sects or branches from Konigun. I have never heard of a style that never had styles created from it. How does Mr. Dallas think other styles get started? TrueGamerOmega 22:44, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Shiroi Tora Ninjutsu is a branch off of Konigun. Ryuu Kage Ninjutsu also uses a lot of Konigun techniques, though they claim not to.
Please sign your posts. I have never heard of Shiroi Tora Ninjutsu. What year was it founded? Who founded it? I have heard of Ryuu Kage Ninjutsu, and considering the founder and his fiance are being sued by Konigun I wouldn't trust anything any Konigun member says about them. TrueGamerOmega 18:50, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
There is also discrepencies in any information pertaining to Konigun and its members. For example, Mr. Dallas has told a member of E-budo forums on a phone call that he is NOT fluent in Japanese yet there is a magazine article that states that he is fluent. Also, there is a period of time in which Mr. Dallas was jailed for Counterfieting and another where he was jailed for assault. The periods of time in which he was incarcerated has Konigun claiming that he spent the time translating the Konigun "scrolls" that he also claims were stolen by the police...RANDOMLY for no apparent reason! I wish for once that Konigun could have a STRAIGHT story. 216.79.146.64 18:10, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Shiroi Tora was founded in, I believe, 1996. Just because you have not heard of them doesn't mean they don't exist. You are not the end-all authority on Ninjutsu. Also, when last I checked, you were not a moderator for this discussion, Kyle. This is not your site. People do not have to follow your rules. Perhaps that person didn't sign because they didn't want to, or didn't know how. Please do not try to make yourself feel like you mean something by acting like you have authority where you don't. 70.115.79.240 22:48, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
1. Do not call me Kyle, on here I am TrueGamerOmega. You should not address me personally since I do not know who you are. 2. Don't change the subject by giving the "you're not GOD!!!11!lol!" speech. I did not demand that the person sign the post. Note I said "Please." Plus Wikipedia asks that people sign their posts. Also, it's not difficult at all. I am not trying to "moderate" this forum. I already have my own website that I can "act like I have authority" over. What are these "rules" of mine that you speak of? The reason I said this page is the proper place to discuss Konigun's legitimacy is for legal reasons. E-budo had a place where people dicussed Konigun and Konigun then SUED them. This place has much better protections. I know what you're going to say: "But they were saying things that are not true. They are just saying it because we don't agree with them! They hate non-Bujinkan!" I can see a good reason why they don't trust any non-Masaaki Hatsumi-san related styles. Considering that Masaaki Hatsumi is the only ninja master who has the ability to PROVE his legitimacy. In the 80s there was a great ninja boom with Stephen K. Hayes bringing Ninjutsu to America. It makes sense to be doubtful of any style that had a "major" occurence during the 80s. Plus, all neo-ninjas act the same or similar when it comes to the dicussion of their legitimacy. By the way, I'd like to know what Mr. Dallas says about Ashida Kim and Frank Dux. Good luck getting an answer!
I never said that Shiroi Tora Ninjutsu didn't exist. I merely said that I never heard of them. In fact, I did a search on Yahoo!(Which I should've done before I posted) and found a Shiroi Tora Ninjutsu. Unfortunately, Shiroi Tora Ninjutsu is a branch of the Bujinkan dojo, not Konigun. But, you've never heard of the purple gremlins. That does not mean they don't exist; however, you cannot find information on them so it is most likely that they don't exist.
I am here as a progenator of the truth. I may not be an "end-all authority on Ninjutsu" but I do research things GREATLY and in immense detail. You should also not act as an "end-all authority" on Ninjutsu. But I am not here to sling insults. I am merely posting claims, observations, opinions, and beliefs. I would like for Konigun to respond to each of the claims/etc. I have posted here.
Other people and I are not here to discredit everyone. We merely want for people to know the truth. The E-budo forums members did not say things for malice. With the exception of a few people who handled things wrong. I myself wish Konigun were a legitimate style. I wish that Mr. Dallas could bring back proof of Konigun being 800 years old. I wish that I could look back at my time on Konigun and not think of it being wasted. But I am still glad I went to Konigun for a few reasons. I am currently in a great relationship with a person I met at Konigun. Konigun helped me realize my love for Martial Arts. There is a fellow who may still train in Konigun that I see as a great friend and rival with whom I would like to train/spar/etc. with again. I wish for people like Mr. Tracy Stephens to have spent his time in a real Ko-Ryu. Mr. Stephens is a very humble and respectable person.
Remember, the people that are discussing this are not "out-to-get" you.
Sincerely, TrueGamerOmega 05:50, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Something I've just noticed. It is obvious that Konigun does not hail from Japan for this reason. There are discrepencies in the translations of Konigun's techniques. Konigun claims to use the Satsuma-ben. Yet, there are many techniques that use dialects other than Satsuma-ben. It is quoted as having a "significantly different vocabulary." So why does a style claiming to use this dialect use mainland dialect words for techniques?TrueGamerOmega 06:22, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I've read a lot of things on this discussion here, and some(though be it, very little) on eBudo. What got me started on this is the fact that I've over-heard various inviduals(some I know, some I don't) discussing both the legitimacy issues of Konigun and how they've been treated by Konigun and it's associates(which I'll get back to in a bit). Now, from my limited martial arts experience(which includes training with a handful of styles, ones that can actually, easily prove their legitimacy and, oddly enough, Konigun), I have learned a lot. I have learn some good techniques(more than enough to properly defend myself), but throughout it all, I learned something else. This is more important that anything self-defense tricks I know. This is actually more important that the legitimacy of a style's claimed lineage, and yet seems to be relevant to the issue at hand, Konigun. That one thing, is how a style acts towards others and how the leaders and members handle various situations. In my experience, I have figured out how to tell the difference between a student and a master through words and actions(which really wasn't hard). Despite the subtle differences, there are many things both have in common when it comes do doing things. I have heard stories of Bryce Dallas being attacked and beating the guy down, in what from the description resembled a showy manner, and how he has been quite abusive to his students. A real martial arts master avoids fights, avoids hurting people when plausible, and is not very abusive(in fact they aren't abusive at all). Also, they do not run around trying to intemidate people and 1984(alter/falsify) documents like Ashida Kim has been known to do. From what I've seen and heard, when dealing with a handful of individuals questioning their legitimacy, Konigun has, [sarcasm]in traditions of any real martial arts style[/sarcasm], handled this by not providing counters to arguements against them, made personal attacks, threatened several individuals, have had the "holy than thou" attitude, made no efforts whatsoever to prove their claims of legitimacy, made what are most likely falsified claims(many of which actually have nothing to do with anything), and have even gone so far as to initiate frivolous law suits against people for absurd amounts of money. Now I'm not an expert, but it seems to me that no legitimate martial arts style would deal with this as Konigun has. Using some basic facts to sum it all up; all styles have form, philosophy, and application. You cannot have a style without all 3. Konigun has, throughout the various debates, proven that they lack philosophy, or at the very least any real application of it. Ergo, Konigun isn't even a style, period.--M.C. Ice Tray 16:12, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
To quote: "The E-budo forums members did not say things for malice". So, the picture Scott Staples posted of Bryce Dallas killing his students with a sword so he can eat them wasn't malice? I'm not going to bother in this discussion anymore, because it is hopelessly biased (though it claims not to be). Nothing I say here will be taken seriously, because I'm in Konigun, and everyone on here has said that that means that they can't believe anything I say, even though they've never met me before and have no idea who I am. This whole thing has been blown WAY out of proportion by people who aren't even INVOLVED and are just looking for a way to kill time and cause some drama. They don't care that they're causing problems for people who haven't done anything to hurt them, and they don't care if those people just want to go on living their lives. I have a 17 month old daughter that is fed and kept in diapers because of Konigun. I hope that all this excitement and drama is worth what all this is doing to her. All of you have gone into this with no idea and no consideration for what you might be doing to innocent people, all because you'd rather cause trouble for people than read a damn book when you're bored. I guess it makes you feel "important". What will you gain if you bring Bryce Dallas down? NOTHING. What does all this have to do with you? NOTHING. But I have a lot to lose, and this DOES involve me. But who cares, right, as long as you get a thrill out of it? 70.115.79.240 18:21, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
You really should stop. You're doing way too much to hurt your own pretentious, self-serving cause. As far as what we gain from stopping Bryce Dallas... Read my last post again and do the math to figure out what kind of man we are trying to stop.--M.C. Ice Tray 21:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
This post of yours proves much more than any claim against Konigun ever could. I know about debates and discussions. When people begin personally attacking the other people that is when they are wrong. There is a good reason why we don't believe what you say. It's because you constantly change the subject and personally attack people YOU don't know. Time to quote:
"I'm not going to bother in this discussion anymore, because it is hopelessly biased (though it claims not to be)."
How is it biased? Please tell me. I would like to know. The only reason it can be CONSIDERED biased is because KONIGUN REFUSES TO DEBATE. I asked why Mr. Dallas does not adopt the title of Soke even though it means "headmaster" and he is the headmaster. All you have to do is provide me with an answer. I don't see how that is biased. It's just another insult at this discussion and the people of this discussion to make YOURSELF feel better.
"Nothing I say here will be taken seriously, because I'm in Konigun, and everyone on here has said that that means that they can't believe anything I say, even though they've never met me before and have no idea who I am."
Where has anyone said that? I don't see it. Your just putting words into our mouths. What we cannot trust is why Konigun vehemently refuses to debate in a proper manner. Plus, you said earlier in this discussion that what I say should not be taken seriously because "we both know your martial arts experience." And you preach about us not knowing you personally? You don't know who we are. You may know "of" who I am...but not who I truly am. Tell us who you are if it is such a problem that we don't know. Create a Wikipedia account.
"This whole thing has been blown WAY out of proportion by people who aren't even INVOLVED and are just looking for a way to kill time and cause some drama."
I don't see how it's been blown out of proportion. As I recall Konigun was the one's sueing E-budo. We just want the TRUTH. But unfortunately, Mr. Dallas would never discuss things personally on a place like this. I've never seen him directly talk to anyone about any Konigun discussion with the exception of talking to GTO on the phone. Why does he refuse to talk? The LOGICAL answer is that he is lying and he doesn't want to be proven wrong. You may enjoy hiding in a shell of lies but unfortunately I don't. It seems that under your philosophy that if someone has never had to deal with abortion they should not debate about it? If someone has never had sex they should discuss it's morality? What about the people who have been hurt by Bryce Dallas. There are numerous stories about Dallas and other members of Konigun. I have even heard that Mr. David Ishee and other black sashes have been slapped in the face by Dallas. That is why these people are getting involved. So we are the one's causing drama? Read your entire post. You are the one giving the drama.
"I have a 17 month old daughter that is fed and kept in diapers because of Konigun. I hope that all this excitement and drama is worth what all this is doing to her. All of you have gone into this with no idea and no consideration for what you might be doing to innocent people, all because you'd rather cause trouble for people than read a damn book when you're bored."
See, nothing but full blown drama. "What this is doing to her." Yes, I bet it's incredibly traumatizing. Ya' know, considering she constantly surfs the internet and loves Wikipedia as I do. Mr. Dallas should consider what he's done to innocent members of Konigun. Not just the people who have claimed that he has done stuff to them. But also the members of Konigun who have said they are AFRAID to come foward to Mr. Dallas to ask about these discussions. What kind of soke-ship is that? Having people afraid of him. Also, think about any aspiring martial artists who become traumatized because of Konigun and never practice martial arts again. It's very mature to play the "Woe is me" card. If you help a criminal then you are just as guilty. And once again you personally attack people you don't know. Even though you scold us for the same thing.
"I guess it makes you feel "important". What will you gain if you bring Bryce Dallas down? NOTHING. What does all this have to do with you? NOTHING. But I have a lot to lose, and this DOES involve me. But who cares, right, as long as you get a thrill out of it?"
Once again you personally attack us. A sure sign of losing an arguement. What will we gain? The satisfaction that another Ashida Kim or Frank Dux isn't corrupting martial artists. Plus, Konigun sued E-budo. Not the other way around. Don't you have an education? Is Konigun really the only job you have? Why? I know plently of martial artists who have time for school, MA and a job easily. Think about this, what do the people who Konigun is sueing have to lose. A UNNECCESARY amount of money from EACH person. The ability to use the E-budo forum site. In addition to the loss of their 1st amendment rights. I hope it makes you happy that you work for a person akin to a crime lord. Remember, all sins are equal. So a person who lives of lying is the same as one who lives off murder. You obviously are not sincere in fighting for Konigun. Or else your "discussion"(if it can even be called that) would be much more professional. I bet you'll probably come back against this post with more mud-slinging. But I'm going to ASK this. If you are not going to discuss Konigun's legitimacy, please don't post here. This is meant for discussion, not whining. Thank you. TrueGamerOmega 22:01, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm giving another post regarding Konigun. Unfortunately for you Konigun, I am as stubborn as they can get. I FIGHT for what I believe in. I'll die for what I believe in. I'll never give up this fight. There may be other people on the forums and other sites that Konigun did not affect personally, but I was affected directly by Konigun. With Konigun's lawsuit that also gives these people a reason to fight. Remember this Konigun, all they said were words...you turned it into money and rights. You dare try to take away our right to say what we want? This is the internet! It thrives on such things...unless of course you are blissfully unaware of such things. You act just like children. "Oh! Billy called me a stupid-head. I'm gonna tell!" To quote some guy: "Words are nothing but empty expressions lost in a sea of deeper meanings." Even Bujinkan gets accused of being a false ninjutsu ryu. But remember, it's just words. To a person that speaks a different language, the words are just jibberish. Here is a site that Konigun should visit. http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/article.php?a=15 I'll keep fighting until Bryce Dallas is laughed out of court. TrueGamerOmega 08:17, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
okay now konigun is a peace of shit and i no that cuz i went there for a year and Kyle is not a mad or angry teenager ur the one who is attacting him and ya'll did some fucking stuff to me well i subjest u better back off of Kyle..........or things might get ugly signed ( don't fuck wit me! ) and ya'll never dismissed him from class ya'll did that to me for doing what every one else should do to there fucking sash cuz ya'll r fucking fake and i new that ya'll where for the 1st time i went there cuz i know a lil bit bout konigun or how ever u spell that other one KONIGUN IS A PEACE OF SHIT AND NOONE SHOULD EVER GO THERE signed ( don't fuck wit me )
I would suggest refraining from such comments as they could be contstrude as threatening. I would suggest you take things easier and discuss the issue or what you wish to talk about. TrueGamerOmega 21:55, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
[This whould be your 13 year old girlfriend Christi ---- if im not mistaken right Kyle.]-Konigun Member
It is now April. The Konigun said they would be visiting Japan in March and there seems to be no evidence that they were ever serious about it. How should the entry reflect this?
[edit] Language and Dialect
Here is an interesting quote: The word Konigun is actually two words in one, "koni" - friendly and "gun" - force. Will someone tell me why I translated for years and never saw or heard a Japanese person utter the word 'koni', well, except as the beginning to konnichiha. The group name is also written in katakana - why is there no kanji? It also seems like the history of Japan was paraphrased on the site and the fakie "ninja history" was thrown in.
Yeah, their name doesn't easily translate into "friendly force" as they claim. Now if you translate it in a certain way then you can get it to mean something similar to their translation. Unfortunately, someone who would translate a word or set of words in such a way shouldn't do translations...ever...
Konigun does not mean "freindly force" in any dialect and unless one of you folks can show proof of expert Japanese ability you should let it stand.
Oh, are you from Kagoshima 800 years ago?70.115.79.240 01:48, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
No, and neither are you. But I do speak the language and live in the country as well as being well aquainted with people who know the dialect of Kagoshima. Do you even know the history of Japan or the language, much less the impossibility of it being a Kogoshima dialect? Oh, and how come you keep posting things that are not true about schools of ninjutsu being converted and then complain about others not being there at the time and place?
What? That question doesn't make sense.
Well, let me make it clear. You post things from the claimed lineage of Konigun and say that Konigun is Kagoshima dialect. You were not there, and don't know anything about the language or have even visited the country. Yet you ask if I was there 800 years ago when I say that it is not Kagoshima dialect. FYI- the dialect of Kagoshima was fairly close to standard Japanese of the region until about the 17th century.
This is the kind of discussion that I like to see. Albiet a little more aggressive but, meh. You make a good point about the language. But I have a question for Konigun member. Why has Mr. Dallas taken down the pictures of his certificates on the website? Is it because of the claims of them being falsified? TrueGamerOmega
There is no such thing as Satsuma-ben, because there is no such thing as Satsuma. The Satsuma area - which was under the rain of a daimyo - was quickly incorporated into Japan in the Meiji area. Any dialect learned in that area in the last 150 years would be referred to as Kyushu-ben or Kagoshima-ben. Dallas probably got the term from a history text book. The only thing the Satsuma Clan was famous for was shooting crappy cannons at passing foreign ships. s7rugg1e
Actually most places I've seen it listed as Satsum-ben, Kyushu-ben, and Kagoshima-ben. I usually see it say Kyushu-ben when refering to the dialects in Kyushu. I usually see Kagoshima-ben when refering to the dialect specifically in Kagoshima. Satsuma-ben is also used to specifically refference the dialect in Kagoshima. Japanese_dialects#Kagoshima
How do they refer to it in Japan? TrueGamerOmega 21:49, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, from 5 years of living over there, I have never heard of Satsuma-ben. Now there are many different city-based dialects - I speak Osaka-ben and my wife speaks Kyoto-ben (yoku hanashiteharu~) - I have heard of Okayama-ben (no~) and Hakata-ben, but just not Satsuma-ben. When I searched for it on Japanese Wiki - nothing shows up - I may be wrong, but google searches show a lot of repetative info that leads nowhere as well:
Now Satsugu-hogen does show up and I have heard of that - it's called Kagoshima-ben by everyone else. I think it's mentioned in Murakami Ryu's book 69.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%B9%BF%E5%85%90%E5%B3%B6%E5%BC%81
Someone might want to change the entries to reflect this. s7rugg1e
Satsuma-ben could be an English-made name for the Dialect of Kagoshima. Kagoshima-ben makes more sense since it is the dialect of Kagoshima. Thank you. Note: I named this section and will eventually move other language related stuff here in order to organize this page better. TrueGamerOmega 22:53, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
That is always possible since Americans has a tendancy to make up things when it comes to other people's culture and languages. Unfortunately for that arguement, if Konigun has real Japanese roots, Dallas should and would know what things are supposed to be called. I seriously doubt any real Japanese style would hand over full leadership to a man who doesn't know much about the language.
I also highly doubt any Soke would have leadership over to someone who has been in the style for only 12 years. TrueGamerOmega 01:12, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
There are cases of people being made soke in less than 12 years. But the language problems kind of point to the fact that this did not originate with a Japanese source.
Quite so. Also, in an article called "Big Ninja in a Little Town" they claim that Mr. Dallas can speak Japanese fluently and himself translated the supposed scrolls. Although these scrolls seem to have disappeared off the face of the planet and Mr. Dallas has never proven that he can speak Japanese other than basic phrases. That also reminds me, one time I asked him if he ever plays Go_(board game) and he didn't know what I was talking about. Which is strange because I mentioned it to a black sash one time and they said he plays Go. TrueGamerOmega 17:10, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, I-go is a very rarely played game even for the Japanese. I am interested in the kakejiku or whatever scrolls he claimed to have translated. It seems that whatever martial arts magazine published that without research are fooling themselves. Any scroll written before the war is almost unreadable to JAPANESE. I can barely read a few of the symbols of modern decorative kakejiku, and my wife (who is native Japanese and has a very firm grasp of her language) has trouble with the older ones. It should be interesting to see the photoshopped pics of Dallas in Kagoshima with ninjas come March. He should just give in, drop all lawsuits, take his money, and write a book about it all. You could get Timothy Van Patton and Lee Van Cleef to do the made-for-TV version. s7rugg1e
The reason I had asked him about Go was because I mentioned Go to one of his black sashes and the black sash said that BOTH Bryce and "Meijin" Jay Green play Go. When I mentioned it to Bryce, he didn't know what I was talking about until I said "It's a Japanese board game." His BS machine activated instantly, and he said something to the effect of "Oh yeah, Meijin Green plays Go." That was the entire conversation on Go. The suspicious thing is that he didn't know what it was until I mentioned that it was a Japanese board game. I really like Go. Although, I am still an amatuer.TrueGamerOmega 18:23, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm.... Go.... There's at least a Manga or two about it.... Oh well....--M.C. Ice Tray 15:18, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
As far as Japanese dialects go, there is such a difference from one island to the next that the person who discredits Konigun and Saija from word usage alone will get into an argument with one of the wives of one of our students who is from the kagoshima area, knows of the word and the name. I challange anyone who lives in Japan to deny that there is such a dichotomy of dialects within their country.
Allow me to challenge. After my years as a translator, the only time I have heard the name Saija is as a Finish lady's first name. This can quickly be confirmed via google.com images. Anyone existing Japanese with the surname Saija would be displayed somewhere. I could believe, with Japanese pronunciation, a Saisha, but not a Saija. s7rugg1e
Also, they have a set of "Lexicon" that a student must learn before getting a white sash. The lexicon inlcudes Konigun's history, the art color(which is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard...even when I trusted them it was dumb).
To quote from their book:
Type(Shidara): Ninjutsu Symbol(Hajimono): Medallion Translation(Naosu): Study of responsibility, task, and duty. Colloquialism(Zoku-Go): Study of Nature
Oro? What they mean by symbol is what they say all ninja styles use for the symbol of Ninjutsu. I know Japanese well enough to know that Ninjutsu does not translate in to what they say. "Nin"- Means "stealth, secret, or hidden", sometimes used to mean "to endure." "Jutsu"-meaning "art of", commonly used for older styles such as Jujutsu. Now what Konigun will probably say is, "YOU ARE NOT JAPANESE FROM KAGOSHIMA! SO HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT ISN'T WHAT IT MEANS THERE!"
REBUTTAL! You specifically tell the colloquialism of Ninjutsu. Incase you didn't know, that means what the people in that area use the term to mean. Y'know like slang. Also, you have never been to Japan and I highly doubt you are currently trying to learn Japanese as I am. If anyone wishes for me to post what else they have in their little Lexicon section, please say so.
A message for Konigun: "Konigun wa omoshiro kunai desu!" TrueGamerOmega 16:57, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
If the Konigun folks want people to believe that Konigun is something in Kagoshima dialect, they should point towards a source than can be checked instead of saying that a wife of a member says it is so. How can we check that? There is no reason to believe that they are telling the truth when they are not even willing to give a name. The people who have lived or lived in Japan all say that same thing- Konigun is pure nonsense in any dialect.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. Nobody believes the "friend of a friend" story. That is how rumors/urban legends get started so it is not a viable source. Maybe, if this person actually existed, they could get her to post on here. Have you noticed how on discussions with Konigun, there is always one message person. At first it was Mr. Stephens and after that it is "lucideyes." Wouldn't it be nice if the people in the group would actually fight as a group instead of assigning a spokesperson it seems. At least I have friends who can and have come on here.TrueGamerOmega 16:26, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
"Saija" or "Saiga" may have come about from the Saiga Shotgun. He could have easily taken the name "Saiga" and change the g to a j to make it sound Japanese. It makes a great deal of sense. I am going to research what year it was invented to see if there is any corralation between Konigun's "former grandmaster" and the shotgun's birth.216.79.146.64 16:05, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Something funny I noticed.
- 言葉の変換で、母音aiをeにする特徴がしばしみられる。 だいこん(daikon)→デコン(dekon) 大概(taigai)→テゲ(tege)
Apparently, because Satsugu dialect changes the ai sound to an e sound, Saija would actually be Seja...maybe this explains it?struggle 16:20, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Weapons Discrepancies
I just discovered a discrepancy in Konigun's "Weapons History". On their website the Manji Sai is quoted:
Manji-sai: The double ended sai was made to climb castle walls by jabbing between the stones and stepping up on. Also it was thrown to cripple and injure horse or samurai as well as close quarter combat.
But on the Wikipedia page it claims that the Manji design Sai was developed by Taira Shinken. Who was born in 1897. Yeah, ninjas really needed to fight horses in WWI I guess... TrueGamerOmega 18:03, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Also, their site talks about the Ninjato.
Ninja-to: The ninja sword was an older version of the samurai sword that had been discarded. The main characteristics of this sword made it for piercing armor rather than slicing.
Great, although you have to think it is funny...the ninjato is older than Konigun anyway. TrueGamerOmega 18:11, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Then there's that whole part about the Ninjato being a fake blade. Which, come to think of it, is kinda poetic. Even if it was a real sword, I fail to see the logic in using such a blade anyway. After all, if it wasn't good enough for the battlefield, why would it be good enough for covert ops. I am no expert, but covert ops people usually have better equipment than regular soldiers, especially if they are doing going to assasinate someone.--M.C. Ice Tray 21:33, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, that's why it's so funny. The ninjato is a fake ninja sword yet it is still older than Konigun. I am going to add this stuff to the page. TrueGamerOmega 23:51, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Also, another problem with their weapons training is that they teach a great deal of weapons. If you check their site you see that they have a huge number of weapons they teach. For "Deshi/Green Sash" you have to learn the Bo and another weapon of your choice. For the next rank "Monjin/Blue Sash" you have to learn the Tonfa, Kama, and Hanbo. I don't see how Konigun's black sashes become one so quickly. They have to learn a billion weapons. To become PROFICIENT with a weapon it takes time and training. My guess is that they do a half-assed kata and the black sashes give them a pat on the back and a sash. Another thing, they don't teach the Naginata but they do teach the Yari. The black sashes tell me that the Yari, inclulding the kata, is exactly the same as the Bo. The only difference is that you have to learn how to throw it "properly"(according to Konigun's definition). *Inhales* THE YARI IS USED DIFFERENTLY THAN THE BO! The Naginata is used *SIMILAR* to the Bo, the Yari is used is little more differently than that. I've practiced polearms for 5 years. I've studied them. I know a lot more than Mr. Dallas it would seem. Plus if you see their Bo kata, it'd make you laugh to think about someone doing it with a Yari. TrueGamerOmega 16:30, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Whity McCracka(TrueGamerOmega) makes a good point. On a sidenote, now I'm kinda curious as to who that was... Oh well, doesn't really matter. Back to the weapon issue. I have a theory on why Konigun specializes in so many weapons. Money. They have a store that sells them(for a lot as I recall). Now for some parallels... The book store at Hinds Community College, as well as other colleges, sells various school and art supplies, as well as random electronics. Like the weapons at Konigun, these items are sold a noticably higher price than what they cost elsewhere. One of their black sashes even said that Konigun makes significantly more money off of their store than they do from teaching. With that in mind, it makes perfect sense for them to have to know katas for so many weapons to gain rank.--M.C. Ice Tray 15:26, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
That makes a great deal of sense. I have noticed the incredible price for some of their stuff. Some of their weapons are reasonable, some are over priced. I see they have quite a few weapons that are from Pakistan. This is where most weapons shops buy cheap weapons. At least at the "Tool Man" they are only 20 or so dollars.
Not only that but they sell Gi for like 45 dollars. I bought my Karate Gi for 30 and it is much better quality...especially in the pants. Speaking of prices, Christi's father Jon had bought the Konigun CDs right. He bought them for 20 dollars each rank up to Taibushi. That's about 8 ranks right? That's 160 dollars, not including tax. Now they have the CD rank stuff for 50 dollars. The only difference is that now it is on two CDs instead of 10+. Burnable CDs do not cost a lot of money...even the expensive ones. So what's the deal? Why didn't they offer him a trade-in or something since he was so "loyal" to where he could get a little bit back? Oh yeah, the greed thing... TrueGamerOmega 16:29, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
[do a little more research on wars WWI was the last great war fought on horseback]-Member of Konigun
Except for the whole part where most of WWI wasn't fought on horse back. As I recall the reason had something to do with machine guns, better, more mobile artilery, and tanks(as well as other motorized vehicles). A few countries tried the horseback thing(like Poland), only to have the realization "Wow, that's a stupid idea. We're getting slaughtered. Let's not do this anymore." Then there's whole part about Japan not have much of an involvement in the war. They supplied a few ships to fight a few German ships in the Pacific. That's about it. Since Japan's involvement in World War I was quite small, I don't really see why someone claiming to be from Konigun is actually trying to get people to believe that horses were a major part of the war. After all, the War had very little impact on Japanese history and pretty much nothing to do with ninjas.--M.C. Ice Tray 18:06, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree, your statement about WW1 has no place in the discussion. It is semi-relevent but it doesn't address the weapons discrepancy. It seems to me that Konigun members only talk when they have something that they "think" they can get on me or prove me wrong.TrueGamerOmega 18:16, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I edited the parts about the ninjato. Unless someone can come up with a decent source for saying it was created in WWII I think the current version should stand. I also made it clear that we are talking about a straight bladed weapon. There have been things reffered to as ninjato that are known in Japan. It is only the idea that the ninja used straight bladed weapons that cause the troubles.
Ah, that's very good. Thank you for that information. I also like some of the rewording that you did. TrueGamerOmega 15:12, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Neutrality of Article
Lets keep this at a neutral level. Ture gamer omega (Kyle ----)is an angry teenager who has an agenda ever since he was dismissed from class, why else would he keep reverting the definitions of an encyclopedia toward a slanderous bent. Stating that something has not been proved is enough to state that there might be doubts but when you continually throughout your article, say allegedly this or supposedly that without every posting one shred of evidence is heresay and therefore considered slander. Lack of proof or evidence does not confer legitimacy to your claims of being non authentic, neither are the facts that you might have read something on the internet somewhere else. It is illegal to bring up peoples private information on the internet without their permission, which is why there are no websites out there which proclaim people DUI's. The only time newspapers report on such things is when they have just happened and there is a rellavancy to the present day.
You continue to slander me in your posts here. you claim I am fighting against you because I am an "angry teenager." And by twisting the truth you said that I was "dismissed from class." I was not dismissed from class. I had a "2 Free Classes" coupon that you would not allow me to use because I was not a new student. I was allowed to go through the class that day anyway. And, if you remember, I called you guys up and asked if you still had the Taijutsu class. I wanted to continue to learn thing in Konigun because I liked some of the the techniques and some of the people in Konigun. You say, "why else would he keep reverting the definitions of an encyclopedia towards a slanderous beat." Can you tell me why any of the others who reverted it did so? You are not omnipotent, stop acting like it. I already posted on here the reason WHY I am fighting Konigun. If you would actually take the time to read the posts, maybe you would learn something. The only reason you continue to single me out is because I'm the only person you THINK you know.
Yes, the lack of proof does prove Konigun wrong. On the page there is a link to a site that states the improtance of a paper trail for a Japanese style. You should read it and understand that if you have no proof, then you are wrong.
http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/article.php?a=15
But the thing that proves you wrong is not the lack of proof actually. If you would READ the posts on here you would understand that SO many more things prove that Konigun is not legitimate. Read all of M.C. Ice Tray's posts.
You claim that it is illegal to bring up people's person information on the internet if they do not want it to be know. Well, you exclaimed my FIRST name and my LAST name without my permission. You also stated that I was an "angry teenager." That means you are a criminal. That is called HYPOCRACY. This is the second time you've done such things on here. If you post again and continue to slander me or any other poster on here, I will delete the post. This discussion doesn't need to be filled with your malicious, and slanderous posts. TrueGamerOmega 22:45, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Seriously, if you believe that ANYTHING on the page constitutes slander, LIST IT. Please, I implore you to list every sentence, every WORD that you, Mr. Dallas, or Konigun considers slander. Also, I wish you would list what personal information that Mr. Dallas, Mr. Jay Green, Mr. Stephens, or Mr. Ishee wishes for me to keep private. The reason I listed all these names is because they are the only specific Konigun member names I have mentioned on here. Please tell me what personal information they do not want on here. Because you will not tell us what you think is slander and what you think is revealing personal information, there is no reason to change it because it would be assumed that you do not think any of it is. Remember, be SPECIFIC! TrueGamerOmega 17:50, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ninja http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ninjutsu
Here are the Ninja and Ninjutsu talk pages. If you wish you can discuss Konigun on there as well.TrueGamerOmega 18:29, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Wait, wait, wait! You say that hearsay is the same as slander? You are obviously not versed in any legal information. Hearsay is an unsubstanciated claim, NOT slander. Slander is when you say something is what it is not in a MALICIOUS manner.
E.G. Hearsay-"He punched me in the face!"
Slander-"He rapes dogs!"
You say that I've been saying things like "supposedly this" etc. I only say that for THEORIES. NOT claims. Like my claim that no person other than Dallas has met Saija. I didn't say supposedly. I have never heard of anyone other than Dallas having personally met Saija. Remember, it is your purpose to provide proof to show me that I am wrong. How do you want me to get proof of that claim? Do you want me to go and ask every member of Konigun if they have met Saija? It would be easier for you to do it since YOU ARE A MEMBER OF KONIGUN. You should have people's e-mail addresses on record or at the very least, their phone numbers.
You say it is illegal to bring up people's personal information without their permission. You say that is why there aren't any sites that list people's DUIs. Well from what I know, you should be able to easily find out someone's criminal record. Reason being: SOME PEOPLE ARE DANGEROUS CRIMINALS.
You have a child right? How would you like it if you couldn't bring up the babysitter's legal record to make sure that you don't get a child molester, kidnapper, or something of the sort? Don't you want to protect your child? That is one reason why I believe Dallas cannot be trusted. He went to jail for Counterfieting(1987) and Assault(1991). Is that someone you can really trust? TrueGamerOmega 15:24, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
In an arguement, there never is much neutrality. However, it would help if the Konigun side actually engaged in discussion instead of personal attacks(primarily against True Gamer Omega). The reason everyone is supposed to be in this is to prove or disprove(debate) the legitimacy(and actions) of Konigun. It would be quite helpful(and less time consuming) for these discussions to be that, discussions. Now this may sound pretentious(though it is actually quite justified), but I think it is time the big man himself, Bryce Dallas, came out and joined the debate. Now, we've heard the other members of Konigun, but it's long since been time for Dallas to say something here. Perhaps he might actually do the unexpected and prove everyone who has sided against Konigun wrong.--M.C. Ice Tray 16:44, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
A strong person fights for what they believe in. Now if Mr. Dallas actually believed Konigun to be Japanese, wouldn't he fight for it? Or is it that he is a weak person? Either way it is bad. Come on Mr. Dallas, stand up for your style, stand up for your "ninjas," stand up for yourself... TrueGamerOmega 05:38, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm changing the article I dont remove your comments don't remove mine -Konigun Member
I moved your comment to a better location. The only comment I removed was the one pertaining to the person labelled "dont fuck wit me." She has stated to me that you are not allowed to reveal her personal information. I once contacted Wikipedia in order to get my name removed from the history page since you placed it there. Don't not post other people's personal information without there permission that is not relevant to this DISCUSSION. Also, you need to post in the appropriate place. Only post in the "Martial Arts Cult?" section if you have a legitimate rebuttal, claim, theory, opinion, etc. Thank you TrueGamerOmega 04:46, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Also, I'd like to know why you said you'd quit this discussion yet you continue to post. Keep consistentcy in what you say please. But since you obviously do want to continue discussing then I request that you dicuss. Respond to some of the claims, they are plentiful on here so I will not re-list them. Also, please sign your posts so anyone reading this will be able to tell who is saying what. 216.79.146.64 15:52, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I happen to know that more than one Konigun person is posting in this discussion. The person who said they weren't going to post anymore has stopped posting. Don't assume. -Konigun Member
I have a pretty good reason for assuming. Mainly the fact that neither you nor the other person has registered an account on Wikipedia. Also, you don't sign your posts so I really can't tell the difference between you or any other member of Konigun. PLUS, you are using the exact same IP Address. C'mon creating an account is free and it doesn't take very long. It's a little shady to try to hide who you are. I know you might come and say "OH! YOU ARE TRYING TO HIDE YOURSELF BY COMPLANEING(WHINEING) ABOUT US(NINJ@S) CALLING YOU BY YOUR NAME!!!!11!!" Yes, I do hate it when people tell people my personal information on a public web site. I actually don't mind it too much. Considering the only thing I got deleted was the listing of it on the history page because I couldn't personally delete it.TrueGamerOmega 15:34, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Note: To sign posts, type 4 ~ marks Note: I re-added your comment about Christi, but I removed her last name and mine from an earlier post of yours. Do not post our last names without our permission.
I do not believe the tags should be on the page. First thing, the "needs attention" tag is unspecific and tells the user(s) to refer to the talk page. There is nothing on the talk page entailing what this "attention" is supposed to be. I believe it may be there just to distract from the matter at hand.
Second, there is nothing that is not fact on that page. Please tell me what you believe is not fact and tell me and it will be modified.
Lastly, the page is not neutral because Konigun has not addressed the issues about its legitimacy. What does Konigun or Dallas have to say in response to the fact that there is no mention of Konigun in any Japanese source? Please address all the issues on the page before making assumptions, the thing that I was scolded for. TrueGamerOmega 23:12, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Martial Arts Cult?
Does anyone believe Konigun may be a cult? I think so for many reasons:
1. Mr. Dallas tries to control people with fear, much like dictators.
2.The reveal no information about black sashes above Taibushi. The thing that is the most protected is the thing one considers most valuable. So therefore, the information they are protecting could ruin Konigun if anyone found out.
3.I have a copy of the manual I have now is a bit old. It states "What happens in class, stays in class." That sounds like something a rapist would say.
I have some other reasons but I'll let Konigun feast on these for the moment.TrueGamerOmega 16:42, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Reason #1 is completely unfounded. Bryce Dallas rules with reason. I've personally seen it, and I know for a fact you've barely met him, Kyle. You haven't seen how he treats people, so you have no idea. Bryce Dallas is very kind. There are people who don't respond to reason, though. I'm not scared that Shidoshi will ever hurt me. I know that, if it came down to it, I'd have a very strong very big man fighting FOR me and trying to keep me from being hurt, whether physically or emotionally. He's not scary.
Your reason #2 doesn't make any sense. Maybe 'protecting what is most valuable' is simply that. Why should they teach a gold sash something in fifth degree anyway? You have to earn the right to learn some things, and you don't generally earn that right until you make black sash. Walk up to Hatsume and ask him to teach you something from a Master level, and see what he says.
- 3 "What happens in class, stays in class" means that, if someone kicks your ass or you stub your toe and cry like a little baby, your pal Jimmy (who also takes) will not rag you about it in school the next day. We teach people how NOT to get raped in Konigun. Please don't insinuate that our instructors rape people when you commit statutory rape every time you and your 13 year old girlfriend have sex.
70.115.79.240 08:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Note: I reorganized your post. If you are going to respond numerically please do it in order.
1. I have only barely met Dallas, but I have talked to many former members and some current members about Dallas. You used the word "rules." So what? He's your king? Your god? A soke doesn't "rule," he/she teaches, organizes, leads, LEARNS but never "rules."
2. I never said anything about teaching lower ranks higher level stuff. I never said anything about teaching. It is about information. If a 5th degree black belt in Karate wanted to see a 5th degree kata from Konigun, would you show it to the person? Plus, I know there are things that Konigun is hiding in the upper black sash levels.
And speaking of Hatsumi-san(It is spelled "Hatsumi" there is a big difference in "sume" and "sumi"). He is a very humble person. If I asked him to teach me 5th dan stuff he'd probably have a good laugh with me about it or something. He wouldn't go "AAAAH! Glashoppa you must train for a decade before you gain enough honor to learn this." Which is a paraphrased version of what you said. You have a right to learn anything you want in this world. But it goes to the point of the four fundamentals of martial arts: Form, Force, Application, and Philosophy. If I have never taken Togakure-Ryu then I lack these things in that MA. So that is WHY I shouldn't learn a black belt technique. Also, they don't have a "master" level. Japanese people aren't so egotistical that they need a rank that says they are a "master." Hell, most people who are considered masters don't even consider themselves such. Like what my friend said one time, "Wisdom is knowing you know nothing."
3. What right does it give Konigun to tell people what they can or cannot say outside of class. Is that supposed to be a "rule" for humbling the students? If so then it is incredibly out of place in that manual, considering the rest of the rules in that section are things a student can be punished for like sparring without a black sash etc. I was using rapist as an example. I was not insinuating anything. Why did you become so defensive when I mentioned rape, hmmm? But I have heard a story about Konigun members that got raped by Konigun black sashes, granted these are older stories they still merit.
Now, upon mentioning my relationship with Christi. I don't know what you think, nor do I care. My relationship isn't based on sex, I can't say the same about you. She's a great friend and girlfriend. I see you are continuing to personally attack me. I withdraw my invite for you to discuss things because you are obviously either too immature to stay focused or are angry because you are wrong.
Oh, I just thought of something. You are insinuating that statutory rape and rape are the same thing. Yes, forcfully have sexual intercourse against someone's will is the same as having sex with someone below the age of consent. TrueGamerOmega 15:34, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Um, question: What in the hell does anyone's love life have to do with the discussion at hand?! Seriously. For the love of Allah, please stay on topic.--M.C. Ice Tray 22:03, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Also, as I can recall, you proclaimed numerous times that the first Kata in Konigun you learned was the "Chi Kata." Which is a black sash kata if I am to recall correctly. So what happened to earning? If it was the first kata you learned in Konigun you probably didn't have the four fundamentals to do such a kata with it's full, true purpose and/or meaning...if it really has one...
Oh and rights are not earned...that is what makes them rights...just being nitpicky ^_^;; TrueGamerOmega 05:20, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I have a quick question. If I called Mr. Dallas, would he actually discuss the issue? I highly doubt it. I'd probably get a "he's not here" message from one of his black sashes. What if I invited him to a public debate? I'm serious, a public debate in a public place with a neutral moderator, a person of whom knows nothing about either side of the arguement. Seriously, I invite Bryce Dallas and anyone else he wishes to have join him to a public, face-to-face discussion. If you accept my invite then maybe people will look at Konigun a little bit more seriously. I'll probably never get a response to either question... TrueGamerOmega 17:26, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Speedy Deletion
Please explain why this page deserves to be deleted. Please list the following:
1. What on the page is opinions 2. What on the page is biased 3. What edits made by anyone were better than the current version and why
If this is not explained then I will remove the speedy deletion tag because it means you do not truly believe it should be changed. Remember, BE SPECIFIC!TrueGamerOmega 17:19, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
As far as things that need to be explained, they have already been explained to Wikipedia. This is just further proof of mthem. Yes, I truly want this page to be deleted. Just because I do not bend to your will does NOT mean anything other than that you make me angry. Again, Kyle, YOU do not make the rules here, Wikipedia does. 70.115.79.240 17:41, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I know I don't make the rules here. But the only reason you wish this page should be deleted is because Konigun wishes for no opinion on the matter other than their own to be known. Why don't you discuss this? I don't care if you bend to my will. Whenever you edit the page you always edit it to a substandard version. I want to know what you specifically find opinionated or biased or unverified. The fact that you will not specifically list what is shows hesitance on your part. The page lists both sides of the opinions as much as possible.
Example:
It is true that Konigun teaches the Manji-Sai as being a weapon that Ninjas use. Yet it was invented in the 1900s. That doesn't make any sense. How is that a false statement.
Please tell me why you won't discuss this. I am trying to protect this page so people can see both sides of the arguement. If you want your side to be on the page then POST IT ON HERE or EDIT IT INTO THE PAGE without DELETING what other people have posted. TrueGamerOmega 17:58, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Also, Ashida Kim attempted the exact same thing you are trying to do. He failed. TrueGamerOmega 18:03, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I responded to the Manji-Sai comment, and you obviously didn't like that your opinion now showed your lack of information, because your deleted my comment.
What manji-sai comment? I didn't delete any Manji-Sai comment. I MOVED the World War 1 comment if that is what you mean. That is why we READ. So we can find information. Is that what you keep claiming I deleted? Holy crap, I didn't know you skimmed that much. Go back to the Weapons section, read above M.C. IceTray's post, there is your post, I only moved it. That comment did not address the Weapons discrepency, just to let you know... TrueGamerOmega 18:25, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Nor does it does it adhere much to actual historic fact... just for the record. Seriously, no one's usin horses in the trenches...--M.C. Ice Tray 22:10, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
