Talk:Kobold
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Contents |
[edit] Proposed Merger of Kobold Pages
This article isn't at all organized, isn't formatted normally, and contradicts itself! At the moment, i don't know enough about it to fix it myself. --Heah 07:35, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Support. Do we really need 3 pages about Kobolds? One on the general case, one for D&D, and one for other games? Otherwise, I agree with Heah.
-- GumbyProf: "I'm about ideas, but I'm not always about good ideas." 03:37, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
-
- Having more than one page allows for easier disambiguation of a topic, and allows the focus of each page to be more narrow. Besides, a D&D kobold is a completely different fellow from a mythological kobold. BOZ
- Oppose. Keep the folklore and anorak stuff seperate! --MacRusgail 14:07, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
- New Idea. I see how the folklore stuff could be seperate (although it's still pretty short). Could we combine the two gamer pages, at least? GumbyProf: "I'm about ideas, but I'm not always about good ideas." 16:35, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose. Several imaginary creatures share the same name in various works. Goblins, for instance, appear in folklore, Tolkien's works, Everquest, and Dungeons & Dungeons, yet none are exactly the same creature. Merging subjects just because they share the same name would make articles unneccessarily long, cluttered, & confusing. This is why we have disambiguation pages. --Robbstrd 23:18, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Nevermind. To retort the above, none of the articles are long at all; they're already confusing; and Kobold has no disambiguation page. The longest part is probably the least important (the D&D stuff). I think the goblin article maybe has the length and depth to be seperate, but I'm not sure three short articles, without proper links to one another is the right answer. As for the folklore, I do wish someone would flesh out the folklore page. I think it's really interesting. OK, well, then this is still marked for cleanup, and maybe that will take care of it all. GumbyProf: "I'm about ideas, but I'm not always about good ideas." 21:38, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Kobolds in a nutshell
I see that the article isn't organized well, but I'm not exactly certain where it is contradictory. Other than the fact that Kobolds have evolved to mean different things over time.
As I see it, in brief:
1. Kobold comes from German, and loosely translates as Goblin.
2. Kobolds primarily seem to fill the class of house spirit such as Domovoi in Slavic Folklore. They can be mischevious, or helpful, depending on how they are treated. They also seem to often be the spirit of a child killed in or near the house.
3. Now having been established as a mischevious goblin like creature, Miner's name the metal Cobalt after them, believing that silver has been replaced by "Kobolds" with the more useless metal.
4. Popular fantasy, mostly influenced by DnD, has diverged from the original meaning of Kobold. Different versions of DnD have described them differently. The most recent version has clearly described them as small reptilian humanoids. However, earlier versions have also called them Dog-like, and many people have come to think of them as such. Thus, their appearance in the Suikoden game as a dog race.
5. Neil Gaimen uses them in American Gods in a way that is closer to their original house spirit meaning. However, like much in that book, he twists the meaning. The name seems obviously derived from Heinzelmännchen, but instead of being the spirit of a dead child, it is a spirit that kills children. But then performs it's protective spirit role for the whole town. I can't seem to find any reference to the tribal protective spirit nature of Kobolds, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Or anything about the stabbing and wrapping a child.
Ok, so now I know more than I ever expected to about Kobolds. I'm not sure if I'm the one to write the article however...
Best sources I can find is:
Kobold from American Heritage Dictionary
--Deinol 23:15, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)
- OK. Here's a draft rewrite. I've deleted the "kobold named after cobalt" theory - kobolds predate the (1730s) discovery of cobalt - as well as the tribal god bit. I can't find it anywhere either, but it can be reinstated if anyone can provide a reliable source. User:Raygirvan:Raygirvan May 06 2005
[edit] 2nd edition
It should be noted that fantasy kobolds in D&D suffered a major change from dog like creatures in 2nd edition to lizardfolk in 3rd edition
[edit] Small Gods Section?
The section referring to "Small gods" seems to come -completely- out of the blue, and is therefore rather confusing, and certainly sounds completely unsupported. Is this in referrence to Neil Gaiman's book, or folklore of some regional spiritualism/superstition, or is it simply baseless?
Section removed pending some kind of referrence/citation or having it make sense. Here it is:
As far as small gods go, a Kobold is one of the more quaintly created. A kobold is usually the remains of a Teuton/Germanic tribal good-luck-god. These gods were made by raising an infant in an underground hut for five years, never letting it see the sun. Then, on its fifth birthday, it would be dragged up at night, and before the entire tribe be pierced by two blades -- one of bronze, the other of steel. The body would then by held over the flames until dry and brown; the end result would be a small dry fetish which would be carried around and worshipped. When the creature and container were finally destroyed and forgotten, the remains of the god would become a Kobold or a Brownie. They are usually bitter and malicious, a product of their creation and abandonment.
Tchalvak 17:58, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Etymology
I quote from a note in Herbert Hoover's translation of De Re Metallica, in which Hoover quotes from another of Agricola's works, De Animantibus Subterraneis: "Then there are the gentle kind which the Germans as well as the Greeks call cobalos, because they mimic men." Agricola goes on to describe creatures identical to knockers. If we accept this derivation, presumably the term was extended from the (benevolent) knockers to include malicious mine goblins, from whence we get kobolds, cobalt, and so forth. Choess 05:29, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
