Talk:Knyaz

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Knyaz is within the scope of the Russian History WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Russian History. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.


I changed the geographic reference from "the history of some Slavic lands (Ruthenia, Russia, Serbia)" to "...(Russia, Serbia, Ukraine)", since the casual reader would be more likely to recognize the modern names. Anyone who reads further would soon encounter Rus' and Ruthenia. I hope no one is offended. Cheers. —Michael Z. 18:05, 2004 Sep 7 (UTC)

Knyaz is a more common (not to mention that it is also more correct) way of transliterating the Russian word князь. Shouldn't the redirect be from kniaz to knyaz, not the other way around (as it is now)?--Ezhiki 17:09, Jun 14, 2004 (UTC)

Holy shmoly, looks like this article is yet another idiotic battleground between Ukrainian and Russian nationalists. I withdraw my earlier comment.--Ezhiki 14:16, Jun 24, 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Slovak, Czech

In today's Slovak, "kňaz", and in Czech, "kněz" means a priest.

Yes, thats true, and name for rulers changed from original knyaz/kniez → kníže (in Czech) or knieža (in Slovak).

[edit] "etymology"

Even earlier word from the Proto-Germanic *Kuningaz, a form also borrowed by Finnish (Kuningas), is related to the Slavonic word "kniaz'" because all of them are the derivatives of the common Indo-European root form meaning "a horse-mounted warrior" (compare modern Russian word "konnik" and English "knight").

This piece of "etymology" is pseudoetymology, and the most tell-tale sign is the claim that initial Germanic k- corresponds to slavic k-. It is sad that people won't stop adding bogus information in Wikipedia.--Wiglaf 18:51, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] middle ages sentence

the first sentence is "The meaning was changing during history." to me this makes no sense whatsoever. is history over? i think it should be changed to "The meaning has changed through history" or something of the like. any suggestions would be appreciated before i or anyone else changes it. --Tainter 01:46, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

I think the phrasing is fine. This word is not part of active politics, it is all about history now. --Ghirlandajo 11:25, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology of Polish 'ksiadz'

[edit] Ksiadz

Polish word ksiadz is a germanism-it comes from Old German language word kuning, not from kniaz.Perhaps add a article on the word. Saying ksiadz comes from kniaz is very misleading. --Molobo 09:44, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Have you ever heard of denasalization? Kniaz is a pan-Slavic word derived from konung. In Polish, the word evolved into ksiadz. You'd better follow the link to Vasmer's article I inserted in the article before making any sweeping assertions. --Ghirlandajo 11:07, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Sorry but your edit makes it seem like Polish ksiadz came from Eastern Slavic kniaz word.

Also I don't understand Russian language.Do you know a good translator from Russian to German or English ? --Molobo 11:33, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Sorry but the Polish word Ksiadz doesn't come from East Slav kniaz:
http://grzegorj.w.interia.pl/lingwpl/pochoslo4.html
  • kъnęʒь ‘król, książę, ksiądz’ (← sgn. kuning),
king, prince,priest-old german kuning. --Molobo
But who has told you that ksiads is derived from the East Slavic? Kniaz is a pan-Slavic borrowing from konungr, which developed as князь in East Slavic languages, knez in South Slavic languages and Czech, and as kziadz in Polish, where nasalization happened. The parent language is Common Slavonic and not Old East Slavic. Do you see the difference now? --Ghirlandajo 12:04, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Ok I can conceded to this however I will put explanation that the word itself has German origins, and as a title was used mainly by Eastern Slavs.No need to imply mythical "slavic" nation. --Molobo 12:19, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Kniaz is a pan-Slavic So you mean its old slovanic language word ? Please don't use the term pan-slavic as its highly ideological. --Molobo 12:23, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Language of Slavs dispute

I still think it seems strange than any common word between Slavic and Germanic seems to be borrowed by Slavs from Goths. Is it not possible that it could have been the other way?? I've read sites which have linked Slavic, Baltic and Germanic as forming a single branch of the IE family tree at a time when it was one of four languages. If all these words, Knyaz, Malako etc are taken from Germanic, what then is proper Slavic?

I don't have a clue what "Malako" is. If you mean the Slavic word for milk, it is not a Germanic loan by any means. --Ghirla | talk 10:05, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

It seems that every verb, noun and adjective is from Celtic, Latin, Greek, Germanic, Iranian (religious terms) etc. Has Slavic really not leant itself to anything? Or is it simply disagreeable to think with its low prestige in the 21st century that someone might have borrowed from your ancestors?

There are no Slavic loans from Celtic, as best I know. Early Latin loans are extremely sparse and may be counted with the fingers of one hand, so to speak. The proliferation of Germanic and Greek loans is easy to understand, as these populations were culturally more advanced than early Slavs. There are some Iranian (Scythian) loans, not more than a dozen really, and most of these are disputed. There is nothing denigrating in the abundance of loans, as it is a sign of extensive cultural contacts. Actually, a number of loaned words in East Slavic languages is astoundingly low, if we compare with - say - English. Both the Slavs and the Balts remained in the Indo-European urheimat after all the other branches departed, so it is hardly surprising that the Balts and the Slavs retain the largest portion of PIE vocabulary of all the living languages. Take a look at the Slavic terms of kinship in the List_of_Indo-European_roots and compare them with PIE roots, for example. --Ghirla | talk 10:05, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Slavs were led by dukes/princes from as far back as their origins are attested. It may sound stupid but I can't even see how Knyaz has roots in Germanic. This is not a suggestion that the Germanic word is taken from Slavic, as much as a suggestion that the proto-language variants descended from an earlier language spoken by ancestors of both. Same for all other Proto-Slavic words, either that or early Slavs were (Nems) themselves, no words for anything until told how to say things by more intellectual outsides. Is this how modern Poles, Czechs and Ukranians like to view themselves? Celtmist 27 February 2006

Please take a note that Wikipedia is neither a usenet group nor a chat room. I don't have time to explain it to your at large, but knyaz' - like all other Slavic words ending with -az' (kuning->knyaz, viking->vityaz, pfenning->penyaz, kalding->kolodez') is an obvious Germanic (Norse) borrowing. --Ghirla | talk 10:05, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
The Gerries were certainly not more advanced than your ancestors. Greeks and Iranians, maybe so, Gerries, no sir. Right until the early second millennium AD there is attested documentation that these Goth-descendants, chiefly those who a few centuries earlier devastated all of Rome, were still barbarians. This is classed as the previous stage of our mental evolution where-as Slavs were non-empirical and sought to settle and raise families in their pre-permanent settlement period. I do accept that this is not a reason that Slavs might not borrow words from Germanic. Celtmist 1 March 2006
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