Talk:Kitniyot

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Danny -- One source I used (http://www.aish.com/holidays/passover/articles/all_about_kitniyot.asp) says rice is not Kitniyot. Is that source just plain incorrect? Or is it more complicated than that--is rice "kind of but not really" kitniyot, or something like that? Since I know absolutely nothing about this, beyond what I wrote in the article, and I assume you do, I'd love to hear what you have to say... -- SJK

Rice is not kitniyot, though halachically it is has most of the same characteristics, and the two are often lumped together. On the other hand, there are some groups that will eat kitniyot but not rice. (It is interesting that one of the examples appearing in the Talmud for the two cooked foods that must appear on the seder plate--now a shank bone and an egg--is rice). Danny

Would it be possible for you to include something about this in the article? What are the characteristics it shares with kitniyot? What groups will eat kitniyot but not rice? -- SJK

Does this mean Sephardim can eat corn bread on Passover? -- DRE

Depends on each particular Sephardi tradition and on the actual ingredients and method used for baking the corn (maize) bread. In principle, one could make a bread that contains e.g., maize (US-EN “corn”), rice, water, vegetable oil and baking powder and which would be fine from a strict legalistic point of view. In practice, however, those breads usually contain some form of ḥaméṣ and would therefore be forbidden. Also, even if one manages to make such a bread, many would be likely to avoid eating it since it seems to go against the spirit of the holiday — and also because of the principle of mar’it ‘ayin... -- Olve 07:53, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Rice is not kitniyyot, and that status (or lack thereof) does actually have halakhic consequences. There are in fact many Sephardim who have the minhag to permit rice, but not to permit kitniyyot on Pesach. The rice question has its root in an old maḥloket on whether rice belongs to the five species. (Talmud Babli) The general halakha is that rice is not one of the five species, and that it cannot by itself turn ḥaméṣ on Pesaḥ.

A similar question is actually the one of oats, which — just like rice — does not have the type of gluten which characterises the five grains that may become ḥaméṣ (and incidentally also whether most celiacics can eat a grain or not). The grain that was translated as “aveine” (oats) by Rashi was in fact described as characterised by a row-like structure in the Talmud Yerushalmi, and haRambam confirms that the species in question is שׁבולת שׁועל — “fox barley” — also known as wild barley or two-rowed barley.

Some have also claimed that rye is not of the five species. While this is probably true in the very narrowest perspective, it is clear that rye contains gluten (and may therefore become ḥaméṣ and that rye is cladistically extremely closely related to wheat. In our times, there is also a hybrid rye-wheat, the so-called triticale grain. -- Olve 04:29, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

A source I have (one person) suggests to me that the ban on kitniyot is not pan-Ashkenazi, but only on those from certain villages where it is part of their oral tradition. He will be enquiring with his rabbi for citation issues for it . . . --Vidkun 18:31, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, it is effectively pan-Ashkenazic. If you can cite exceptions that's fine, but it's not really an issue of minhag ha-makom (local custom). JFW | T@lk 19:30, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

My wife's family, who are Sephardi, maintain the following practical reason why rice was problematic for Ashkenazi: the ships that delivered rice from the East to the West carried flour on the return journey to the East; thus the rice became contaminated with flour dust, whereas in the East no such contamination need occur during transportation. In Iraq the custom was apparently that rice was permitted provided it was hand-sorted to ensure no contamination from any wind-borne grains. My wife's grandmother would apparently spend several weeks meticulously hand picking rice-grains to ensure they had sufficient supplies. Can anyone verify or comment on this explanation ? David Ruben ^Talk 14:23, 6 March 2006 (UTC)