Talk:Kipchaks

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to merge with Polovtsian? Mikkalai 09:08, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, I think that one should redirect here (this spelling should resemble the native one better), but the content should be fully merged first. --Shallot 13:56, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Actually, The native spelling is "Kypchaks" (with the "dull i" sound, spelt "Кыпчак" in Cyrillic). I happen to have a book written by an "ideologist" of this movement. It contains quite a few interesting facts, but they are hard to be separated from politically biased crap, kind of Zestauferovisms in Habiru/Eberite/Avar stuff some time ago. Mikkalai 17:52, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Okay, I've moved it to the version with y. I figured it was a Cyrillic transliteration anyway so it'd be imprecise in any event, but if Kypchaks is better that's fine. --Shallot 18:50, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Move from 'Kypchak'

Sorry if the move from 'Kypchak' to 'Kipchak' offended anyone. It's simply that 'Kipchak' is the commonest form of the name, and that most frequently encountered in academic publications (it's taken from Russian - Кипчак - rather than Kazakh or Uzbek). One advantage of this is that one avoids becoming embroiled in nationalist debate about transliteration, as both the Uzbeks and Kazakhs have a claim on the Kipchak heritage, and they do not transliterate in the same way (or, indeed, consistently). If we really want to be accurate then it ought to be 'Qipchaq/Qypchaq', but this seems to be getting into the realms of pedantry. If people feel strongly about this then it can be left, but on the whole using the most familiar form of a word seems to me to be a good rule of thumb. (Sikandarji 14:21, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC))

I've consulted further with a friend of mine who speaks both Uzbek and Kazakh, and it seems that the spelling 'Kypchak' is really rather misleading. It's true that "ы" is normally transliterated as "y" in Russian, but the sound represented by the same cyrillic letter in Kazakh is quite different, not a Russian "uy" but the Turkic back-vowel "u" (as in 'put') which in modern Turkish in the latin script is represented by an "i" without a dot. Accordingly I still think "Kipchak" is the best spelling, whereas "Kypchak" is a wholly unfamiliar form of the word, and is no more accurate as a transliteration. {{Sikandarji 23:40, 22 Feb 2005 (UTC)}}

[edit] The Kipchaks (Polovtsi) in russian steppes

They arrived in the steppes of the northern shore of the Black Sea during the 11th century. In 1068 they win Russian army on the river of the Alta, devastated the Russian borderland. The Dasht-e Kipchak (the Kipchak' plains, polovetskaya step is the steppes von the Volga, Don, Azov regions). Don't rv it. Ben-Velvel 22:20, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't rv it if (1) you have a source (see WP:CITE) and (2) if the information you're putting into the article made sense in English! Tomer^talk 04:29, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

The Citation from your article: "They arrived in the steppes from the northern shore of the Black Sea during the 12th century, under the pressure of the Mongols." It is nonsense and absence of logic.!!! Mongols in 12 century lived in the central Asia, but not of the shore of the Black sea. Kipchaks were nomads and lived in steppes only. At 11-12 centuries Kipchaks moved from the river Irtysh to the river Volga, and then to the Dnieper and to the Danube. The Desht-e-Kipchak is the area from Irtysh to Danube. In 1068 Kipchaks devastated Kievan Rus. Polovtsi is yellowish in old Russian. The Old-Russian dictionary is the source. Citation from The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001-05. "Polovtsi or Cumans, nomadic East Turkic people, identified with the Kipchaks and known in Russian as Polovtsi. Coming from NW Asian Russia, they conquered S Russia and Walachia in the 11th cent... They founded a nomadic state in the steppes along the Black Sea..." Other sources: Pouchenie by Vladimir Monomakh, medieval Russian Annal (in Russian) and the Tale of Igor's Campaign, medieval Russian Annal (in Russian). Ben-Velvel 15:40, 5 December 2005 (UTC)