Talk:Kingdom of Gwynedd
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Rydw i'n byw yng Nghwynedd. I live in Gwynedd. And a beautiful part of the world it is too.
For excellent novels about the Welsh princes see "Here Be Dragons", "The Reckoning", "Time and Chance" by Sharon Kay Penman [1] or "The Brothers of Gwynedd" quartet of books - "Sunrise in the West", "the Dragon at Noonday", "the Hounds of Sunset", "Afterglow and Nightfall" by Edith Pargeter [2]. These all chronicle the last century of independent Wales and the extraordinary intricate relationship with the Anglo-Norman crown and nobility that ultimately failed in Edward I's rampaging conquest that saw the end of an 800 year dynasty and Gwynedd become home to the highest concentration of the most formidable mediaeval castles castles of walesin the world.
[edit] Etymology
Cunedda = Gwynedd as follows
VOWELS change easily, only consonants have any real permanence "G" = "K" are very similar sounds that often evolve the one into the other, or the other into the one
SO
CuNeDDa = C.N.D(d)
GwyNeDD = G.N.D(d) ~ C.N.D(d) --> Cunedda
Thus, the Kingdom of Gwynedd is just a slightly varient pronunciation of Kingdom of Cunedda
Which makes sense, the Kingdom is named after its founding father
- Hmmm... Do you have a reliable source for this? It's certainly plausible, but equally it could simply be a convenient coincidence. I plump for the latter, and my main reason is that I can't see why the sound changes should have affected the place name but not the personal name. It's also at odds with the derivation from Venedotia (now referenced!). That, however, looks to me like a latinisation of an original British name. garik 16:49, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I have also read how Cunedda was an origion of Kenneth. Cunedda is pronounced as Kenneth-a. So Gwynedd becomes Kenneth's Land, in much the same way as Glamorgan is Morgan's Country. Many Welsh place names have origions after personal names, witness Merionedd and others.Drachenfyre 07:49, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
- According to the University of Wales Dictionary (Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru), the name Gwynedd is derived from Brythonic *Ueneda and is akin to Goidelic (ancestor of Irish) Fenia (which gives fiana, "war-band" in Old Irish - e.g. Finn and his warriors). Thus the probable meaning is "Land of the Hosts" / "Land of the Warrior Bands", etc. Going further back etymologically the root *uen- is akin to Latin vena- and suggests "to struggle; to desire, to like" (the root of Latin venus, "love", and also venari "to hunt").
- I've never come across the suggestion that Gwynedd is derived from Cunedda before. Etymological arguments aside, it would be a drastic change in such a short period of time, just a century or two. What is the source of this? So much speculation about things Welsh and Celtic (it's that mist again...) on wikipedia but never referenced! As for Venedotia / Venedocia, it's a perfectly good name which I personally like but which is of course a medieval Latin form of the Welsh Gwynedd, like Mona from Môn and Cambria from Cymru. I find it incredible that an article on wikipedia puts it the other way round! Enaidmawr 00:57, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Truthfully I am more like to agree with you reguarding the origion name if the source is from the University of Wales. I am no expert in the study of names, and from everyone I speak to Cunedda was the origion of Gwynedd. And the poster above where he demonstrates the plausability of Cunedda to Gwynedd seems valid. But does it not seem very odd that Kenneth and Gwynedd and even Cunedd (a) have very simular pronouncations? If the University of Wales has documented a different origion for the name then I clearly would defer to them. It just seems an odd coincidence reguarding the pronouncations. I didnt know there was a talk page for wales! Ill be there soon! Drachenfyre 03:41, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
The banner shown as the banner of the "Aberffraw dynasty" is incorrect and I assert is an historical misinterpretation.
All of the images I have ever seen showing the arms of Gwynedd consist of three red leopards on a white field. Occasionally they are shown as three white leopards on a red field but this is almost certainly a mistake caused during printing because at a distance it would be impossible to distinguish those arms from the arms of England - which in medieval Wales was quite a fundamental thing. The arms shown here are those of Owain Glyndwr who proclaimed himself Prince of Wales in 1400 and were never those of a Prince of Wales from the House of Gwynedd/Aberffraw.
Glyndwr was the son of the head of the house of Powys-Fadog. The arms of Powys-Fadog (and of Powys) were a red lion rampant on a yellow field. Glyndwr's mother was the daughter of one of the heirs to the house of Deheubardd whose arms were a yellow lion rampant on a red field. Thus, by heraldic convention, the arms of his mother and father were quartered creating the flag you see here. This is an established heraldic fact. These were not the arms of Llywelyn, Prince of Wales and Lord of Snowdon. His arms were three red leopards on a white banner.
How the arms of Glyndwr then got changed from being the lions rampant as shown here to the lions passant as seen on the modern banner of the English "Prince of Wales" is unclear. James Frankcom
That is sometimes said, but 1. J. Beverley Smith in his book Llywelyn ap Gruffydd gives the four lions banner as the arms of Llywelyn ap Gruffydd. Smith is generally accepted as the leading authority on Llywelyn. 2. David Moore in The Welsh wars of independence (2005), the latest major history of the period 3. Glanmor Williams - another highly respected historian.
What are your sources? Rhion 17:49, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi Rhion
I have read extensively on this subject, but obviously I concede to these experts if they would show me otherwise, but it is my held belief that it is a simple mistake from the 15th Century that the arms shown are the arms of "the prince of Wales". They are the arms of "a" prince of Wales - Owain Glyndwr. It has long been thought that Llywelyn used the four lions banner and this supposed 'fact' has never been questioned. This does not make sense to me. The arms ARE those of Powys and Deheubardd quartered. It would be a striking and illogical coincidence if the arms of the prince of Gwynedd were the same as the arms of the princes of Powys and Dehuebardd combined. I have not yet found a contemporary description of Llywelyn's arms and the only picture from the 13th Century depicting any arms of Llywelyn of Gwynedd is one where he is shown seated to the left of Henry III and paying homage. In this picture the arms attributed to him are three red leopards on white. I challenge anyone to find documentary evidence of any reference to the four-lions banner as shown here PRIOR to the uprising of Owain Glyndwr. I highly respect J. Beverley Smith's work which I have read - twice - but I would assert that the arms as shown on this page have been attributed to the "Prince of Wales" only since the 15th Century and are infact those of Glyndwr, not Llywelyn. Glyndwr raised "his banner" when he proclaimed himself Prince of Wales in 1400. Before too many Welsh patriots lay this flag on the tombs of the princes of Gwynedd perhaps this issue ought to be resolved. James Frankcom
Hi James
I've been looking into this a bit more - it seems that the original form of the four lions banner showed the lions passant rather than rampant. There are a number of records of the four lions banner before Owain Glyndwr - the earliest seems to be a drawing by Matthew Paris (died 1259) of the arms of Gruffydd ap Llywelyn Fawr, showing them as "quarterly or and gules four lions passant counterchanged" - reproduced in "Walpole Society Publications 14 (1925-6). Following this there are a number of independent references to the four lions being used by others of the family down to Gruffydd's grandson Thomas ap Rhodri (on his seal) and Thomas' son, Owain Lawgoch. There is also a record from 1310 describing them as the arms of Gwynedd. There is a good discussion of this in The Princes and Principalities of Wales by Francis Jones (1969).
Ideally we should have an image showing passant lions, but the image used for "Prince of Wales" won't really do because of the crown. I don't know of any "passant" version I could scan without copyright problems, and I'm certainly not up to creating one. Rhion 17:59, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
I can look for a copy of those arms online. The same graphics are shared by nearly everyone in these instances. I am ready to concede that I am wrong about Llywelyn's arms. It should be noted though that each othe princes of Gwynedd had their own personal arms. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth had different arms to Llywelyn ap Gruffydd, and Owain Gwynedd had quite different personal arms as well. Perhaps because Llywelyn ap Gruffydd was the last crowned prince of Gwynedd that his arms were retained by his descendants. However I am still yet to be convinced. On a contemporary picture found here Llywelyn is seen seated with his arms behind him. They are not these four lions.
However, is it fair to say, that there is a lot of confusion about the rampant and passant lions? Are the lions rampant the arms of Owain Glyndwr as I described? James Frankcom
- It may well be that Glyndwr was the first to have the lions rampant. According to Francis Jones, of the princes recorded as using the four lions quartered arms, Dafydd ap Llywelyn and Gruffydd ap Llywelyn are both shown by Matthew Paris as having the lions passant but not guardant. (Dafydd ap Llywelyn also has another coat of arms assigned to him by Paris, so it may be that they had a personal coat of arms as well as the family arms.) Llywelyn ap Gruffydd and Dafydd ap Gruffydd are both described elsewhere as having the lions "passant guardant". (Dafydd incidentally is stated to have used a colour variant, with the substitution of azure for gules). I haven't been able to find a reference as to whether the lions used by Owain Lawgoch were rampant or passant. Francis Jones incidentally refers to a Chetham MS. 6712, a copy of a work composed around 1260, which states that the quarterly shield was originally borne by Iorwerth Drwyndwn, father of Llywelyn the Great.
I see you have removed the crown from the POW arms image - I had the same idea last night but you have done a neater job than I did. This is the one to use I think. Rhion 12:53, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Rhion, you have enlightened me, and for that I am very grateful indeed. It is nice to be shown why something is the way it is. I would now like to now know why the rampant lions keep popping up and if these are indeed the arms of Owain Glyndwr which have become on occasions confused with those of Ein Llyw Olaf - but that is a debate for a different page. James Frankcom
[edit] "Gogs" and Gwynedd
I have marked the statement with "fact", since it seems quite far-fetched (the simple explanation from Gogledd is much more plausible). In any case, I think this statement belongs in Gwynedd, not here. Edricson 10:05, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
