Talk:Kimi ga Yo/Archive 1

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Contents

Readability Concern

Some of the sentences towards the end of the article do not conform to the conventions of English. A revised version correcting grammar and flow/readability is needed.

The Emperor's Attitude?

I don't see anything in this article about some of His Majesty's recent remarks about the use of the Kimi Ga Yo and Hinomaru in school ceremonies. Should that not be mentioned? I think it caused some controversy, that the Emperor himself was opposed to the forcing of a song in praise of him to be sung... elvenscout742 17:46, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Natural?

"If you compare Kimi Ga Yo democratic countries' (for example England's God Save The Queen) National Anthems, this sort of praise of a ruler is very natural."

There is debate within the UK as to whether references to God are appropriate in a multi-faith country, and (as with Japan) whether references to hereditary monarchy are appropriate in a representative democracy.

Should the article reflect this in the 'response' the the arguments against Kimi Ga Yo? The response here appears slightly fallacious, or at leastr should be restated so as not to suggest that leader worship is 'natural' (which is a POV, not a fact). User:Phil webster

In taking a look at List_of_national_anthems, there really seems to be very few National Anthems that praise a ruler: Brunei, Jordan, Nepal, Netherlands (?), Oman, Saudi Arabia, Spain (?), and the United Kingdom. There are also a few countries that have separate Civil and Royal Anthems: Canada, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Thailand. Finally, there are a few more that mention God but not the ruler: Fiji, Ghana, Hungary, Kenya, Latvia, Libya, New Zealand, Republika Srpska (Serbia), Solomon Islands, Sudan, Suriname, and Tanzania. This data says that "National" Anthems praising a ruler are very rare, even for Kingdoms and Constitutional Monarchies. [[User:GK|gK ¿?]]
In taking a look at national flags, there seem to be very few with big red maple leafs... Since when did we compare national elements to each other? How does this equate with NPOV? The anti-anthem arguments, while spurious, are accurate for what I read in the news (when it comes up 1-2 times every year). The arguments for the anthem are equally spurious, but again-- the whole issue is a tempest in a teapot (IMHO). Basically, it becomes a political football for the nationalists on one side an the commies on the other to jump up and down a bit (and get membership dues from the riled). Perhaps, if anything, the article should scale back these arguments with such a description of the proper relevance of the issue.Davejenk1ns 11:45, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think that the comment "this sort of praise of a ruler is very natural" is very POV. Since the arguments do come up regularly, I guess that they should probably be kept in the article (I was thinking of suggesting just deleting them). Still, I do think that the arguments do need to be trimmed back. Are there any particular events (holidays, etc.) that seem to trigger the arguments? [[User:GK|gK ¿?]] 12:29, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Regardless of NPOV status, the section was badly written (I didn't look at other sections, so not sure about them), and also the original author has little knowledge in this issue. I rewrote it in such a way that it sounds more familiar and removed a number of irrelevant facts like if the song is about nature or not. Finally, I tried ot make it more clear why the government has got such a backlash. I hope this will help. (Don't forget to copyedit so it reads better.) -- Taku 16:31, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

World National Anthem Contest?

Someone please confirm that "World National Anthem Contest in Germany, 1903" bit. All I've found about it on Google is this same page; is there any factual evidence?

I was the anonymous who posted the above on April 15, 2005. As of now, no one provided the factual evidence to keep that part of the article, so I'm removing it. Lampiaio 04:16, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I think that the origin of "Kimi Ga Yo" is in the "Otogi Sōshi".

Shortest Anthem

Certainly Kimi Ga Yo is a contender, but not the clear winner. "Shortest anthem" is of course subjective, you can have five different orchestras play any given anthem and get five different lengths (I know myself from my extremely vast anthem collection I can't pin down a definitive time to any anthem.)

The fairest way to judge this (the NPOV way? ;) ) is to count the number of bars in the anthems sheet music (again, not the best way, but probalby makes it more even.) I found Japan's has 11 bars, but Jordan's has 10 and Uganda has 9, so they are very good contenders too.

Whoever posted the "shortest anthem" fact, please provide proof,a nd keep in mind how hard it is to subjectively prove. --Canuckguy 03:29, 11 August 2005 (UTC)


Unreliable information

Prime Minister Koizumi, however, has officially endorsed Hironobu Kageyama's Cha La Head Cha La for the coveted spot. After Koizumi's endorsement, so many protesters gathered in Tokyo to voice distaste for such a song to become the official anthem that traffic had to be blocked for multiple hours. According to one protester, "Although Kageyama-san's composition is valued in Japanese culture, it hardly represents what we are about as a people. In fact, if instituted as the Japanese anthem it will only appease a small minority." When asked about his choice for an anthem, the protester responded, "Cruel Angel's Thesis is a far more appropriate choice when it is considered that a national anthem is supposed to symbolize the ideals and values of an entire people through song." Although Cruel Angel's Thesis has strong support, Cha La Head Cha La is considered the front runner at the time of this writing.

This information seem very unreliable, and sounds just like a joke (CHA-LA HEAD-CHA-LA and Cruel Angel's Thesis are two Anime music). I wasn't able to confirm this so I'm leaving it there, as I don't know if it's true or not. Please, if anyone can verify this info... Zumbertinho 07:12, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Updated score now available

I've just uploaded a better copy of the score. Please check it for typos and wrong notes, and consider replacing the current image if you think it's a good idea - Sakurambo 17:35, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Filk

I think the lyric of the filk is unnecessary. There are huge number of filks in the world. Wikipedia should not cover such lyrics.--Mochi 01:39, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't me that added the "Kiss Me" lyrics, but I think they should be in there because this is a recent news story that has been widely covered both in Japan and other countries.
You also seem to be dissatisfied with the story about the schoolteacher being fined ¥200,000. The story is discussed in a news article from the Guardian newspaper which I recommend you take a look at (particularly with regard to the statement about the threatened 8-month prison sentence which you have removed twice without any explanation).
Sorry, but I'm going to revert your edits again. If you think this is wrong, please explain why. -- Sakurambo 02:53, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I know the news story widely reported, and the sentence "Recently a new English Language parody... " explains about this. I think this is enough and lyrics are excess because the lyrics are very far from the topic of Kimigayo itself.--Mochi 04:38, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
There is no logic in that. The lyrics are strongly connected to the topic of Kimigayo. How can you not understand that? -- Sakurambo 11:54, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Several sources says the parody lyrics intend to appeal "comfort women", but that have no relation to Kimigayo. Somebody says it is a propaganda, I agree. Adding the lyrics help the supporters of the parody, that is not neutral.--Mochi 01:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
The parody lyrics are related to Kimi Ga Yo because they were designed to be sung to Kimi Ga Yo. Either you don't understand the meaning of the word "related", or you know nothing about the parody lyrics. I have provided you with links to web pages (both English and Japanese) describing the controversy. Please take the time to inform yourself about the situation instead of persisting with these absurd assertions. -- Sakurambo 09:30, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a propaganda site. So explaining the fact that one or some groups like to sing the parody lyrics to insist something is OK, as I said before, but adding the lyrics is excess. The lyrics is a kind of propaganda, and mentiong too much makes the article unbalanced.
You are making personal attacks on me, that is not good.--Mochi 04:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Exactly what are you complaining about then? YOU removed the lyrics from the article [1], but you're still complaining to me because you think the lyrics shouldn't be in the article. What did I do to deserve this? Blimey, some people... -- Sakurambo 08:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid you or somebody add the lyrics again. If you don't, I say nothing about this topic.--Mochi 13:41, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Judgement

The retired teacher's story is another problem. Prosecution has no effect, so I delete. Why did Sakurambo delete the fact on the adjudication that the retired teacher jammed the ceremony?--Mochi 04:38, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Which encyclopedia publishes this ear duster? <<< Unsigned comment by 12:30, 16 June 2006 220.212.101.126
Mochi, once again you're just pushing your own POV. Please stop. It's rude and inconsiderate. -- Sakurambo 12:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
So, you will add prosecutions all the time, won't you? I want to know why do you want to add.--Mochi 01:19, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Mochi, I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. You're obviously more fluent in Japanese than you are in English. Why don't you put your efforts into working on ja:wikipedia instead of making specious remarks in here? Sakurambo 22:20, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Nonsense. I'm also contributing to the ja.wikipedia, so what ?
Prosecution has no effect. Why would you like to write such a thing?--Mochi 01:05, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I see, you're still complaining about the reference to the threatened 8-month jail sentence. Did you read the Guardian newspaper article I referred you to? Here's a quote from it:
...consider the case of Katsuhisa Fujita, a 65-year-old retired teacher who this week was fined 200,000 yen (£950) for committing the heinous crime of reminding parents of their constitutional right to remain seated during the national anthem at a graduation ceremony at a high school in Tokyo in 2004. In one sense Fujita was lucky: prosecutors had demanded that he be jailed for eight months.
Why do you suppose the Guardian newspaper decided that the threatened 8-month jail sentence was worth reporting? Don't you think it provides a useful illustration of the tensions surrounding the subject in Japan right now? I think this is particularly of interest to people in countries like the UK, for example, where (to the best of my knowledge) the national anthem is never sung in schools.
Why are you continuing to insist that this is of no importance? -- Sakurambo 09:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Prosecution tends to demand a long period, and often the adjudication decides a shorter one. You and British newspaper may be interested in, but such things often happen.--Mochi 04:16, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Mochi, I've tried as hard as I can in this discussion to present a neutral point of view based on verifiable references. If a news story appears in several newspapers around the world, then I'd say it's worthy of being included in Wikipedia. If you make a statement of your own personal opinion without providing any references, then I'm going to ignore it. As I've said to you already, this is not the place for you to push your own personal POV. Please try to be objective. -- Sakurambo 08:17, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Please read the Japanese Google News search results[2]. You cited " Fujita was lucky: prosecutors had demanded that he be jailed for eight months.", but you can find many people lucky. Prosecution tends to demand a long period.--Mochi 14:00, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, then. Why don't we just say that he was "threatened with imprisonment"? I'm also considering deleting your note about him holding up the ceremony for 2 minutes, because (a) you haven't provided any references to back up this statement, and (b) as far as I can tell, this is a trivial and inconsequential detail. -- Sakurambo 14:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
According to Asahi shimbun,
判決によると、藤田元教諭は０４年３月１１日午前９時４２分ごろから午前９時４５分ごろまでの間、板橋高校体育館で、午前１０時開式予定の卒業式のために着席中の保護者に向かい、「今日は異常な卒業式」と訴え「国歌斉唱のときは、できたらご着席をお願いします」などと大声で呼びかけ、教頭が制止すると「触るんじゃないよ」などと怒号をあげた。校長が退場を求めても従わず、式典会場を喧噪（けんそう）に陥れ、開式を約２分遅らせるなどした。
The retired teacher asked people to keep sitting. Consequently, the ceremony delayed for two minutes. His crime was "威力業務妨害罪"(charge of forcible obstruction of business). 威力業務妨害罪 is a crime that somebody jams others' business. So, if the ceremony did not delay, his behavior was not considered as a crime. So we should write "The ceremony was delayed because of the retired teacher's act". I agree that the length of delay is not so important.
I think it would be more meaningful to say that he was charged with "forcible obstruction of business" in that case. -- Sakurambo 17:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
"threatened with imprisonment" seems on the retired teacher's side and not neutral. Do you have some better idea?
I took a look at the Google reference you provided, and it seems that most of the hits either discuss death sentences commuted to life imprisonment or slight reductions of prison sentences (e.g., 16 years reduced to 13, or 4 years reduced to 3). In most cases there isn't a huge difference between the sentence requested by the prosecution and the judge's eventual decision, and frankly I don't think your assertion that sentences are liable to be reduced much more in Japan than in other countries really stands up to scrutiny. I think it's perfectly reasonable to mention that the teacher had been threatened with imprisonment, since it is quite possible that he would have been imprisoned (if not for 8 months then perhaps for a shorter period such as 6 months). You seem to be suggesting that it would be POV to mention this fact. Why? -- Sakurambo 17:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Plus, we should mind that the judgement is not over, will continue in the higher court(Asahi says "即日 控訴", or quick appeal to the higher court). The sentences on the Wikipedia are temporal.--Mochi 10:52, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Do you mean the teacher is appealing against the verdict? We could mention that too if you like. But is it really worth it? -- Sakurambo 17:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, he is. I'm not sure it is worth writing in the article of Kimigayo, though. --Mochi 09:02, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I think this dispute is not related to Kimi Ga Yo itself. I don't know where is most suitable to those incidents, but may be Anti-Japanese sentiment or Activity of the Japanese left-winger is better. But there are too poor information to understand those problem, we difficult to write certain things about it.--TOMATOBOMB 16:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
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