Talk:Kelsang Gyatso

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[edit] I deleted the passage of Patrick

I deleted

In response, it is pointed out by NKT followers that Trijang Rinpoche is the root Guru and Spirtual Guide for Geshe Kelsang, and the recent lineage Gurus for the NKT are therefore Geshe Kelsang, Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongka Rinpoche. NKT literature states that any praise to Geshe Kelsang in their publications is put there at the request of Geshe Kelsangs students.

According to Kay NKT followers couldnt provide any reason for that removal and exchange of the lineage Gurus. Also he stated that new members of NKT are unaware of the history of NKT and this is clearly belonging to Patrick who added this passage to justify GKG removal. I would agree to rewrite this point. regards --Kt66 10:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Avanze edit

Hi there, I hope you are well. Can you please explain your latest edit, why is it contradictory? Maybe beings in a Pure Land can send eminations to help other people? Is it possible to prove that they can't?

Thanks Patrick --Patrick K 11:24, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I revised some passages on the basis of kays research. I think the article has to be revised more and also references should been included. I balanced the point of the dedications which you pointed out here. --Kt66 22:09, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


Hi again, I have just added where this information came from, and a bit more info on the requests to Geshe Kelsang bit.

Cheers

Patrick --Patrick K 09:05, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

hi patrick. see Kays research What Kays recognized on the removal of his dedications and and lineage holders is a fact which is recognizeable by mere checking it. There is no need to remark this is a belief or a saying of David Kay. Thats why I reverted that passage. Also the emphasize on Trijang Rinpoche is not really correct. Allthough GKG emphasizes his relation to him. GKG had of course different techaers (!) which he normally do not talk about and never he had the close relation towards Trijang Rinpoche like HHDL. Thats why I remarked your addition as a opinion of NKT. Hopefully you can understand this. However you can improve that remark. But I do not accept to soften the facts on the removals. I will give a link the source of that passage. Have a nice day, --Kt66 10:38, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I hope you are well. With regard to my edits just now, where they factually correct or incorrect? I think they are factually correct. Therefore I think I have a right to put them in. Is there anywhere in the rules of Wikipedia which say I can not put a fact into this page? Cheers Patrick


Dear Patrick, thank you for your contribution and work. I am fine. First I'd like to ask you to give reference or more details to the claim: "that Trijang Rinpoche has always been the root Guru and Spirtual Guide for Geshe Kelsang". When he started to be that? When GKG was 8, 12, 20, 30? And what were his other teachers? GKG had different teachers as all the other Geshes and Tibetan Buddhists too. As with your question on the facts: If it is a fact, that "that Trijang Rinpoche has always been the root Guru and Spirtual Guide for Geshe Kelsang" or we have a reference for this, we can leave it there. As with the reference to the removal it is surely a fact, so we can stated as recognized by Kay and there is no need to blurr it. Kay just gives this fact which is surely the case. If there is a doubt on that fact or you find out the opposite than we can balance this. Also Kay does not "suggest" that Geshe Kelsang said this, he states that he did this. Your wish to make clear upon whom this passage is based I put in the reference to his research. I know it is quite hard what he has done but it is a fact that he removed these, as well as he let removed the pictures of HHDL in his centres. However for this I think there is no need to mention this in the article. --Kt66 11:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


Hi thanks for putting up with me, I am really tired at the moment and have lost my inner peace a little, and can not think too straight!! The ref. for Spirtual Guide as Trijang Rinpoche - off the top of my head, Geshe Kelsang says in the introduction to 'Guide to Dakini Land' written in 1990 something like 'These teachings have come to me from my Spirtual Guide Trijang Rinpoche'. I will have to check to get the exact wordings. Sorry, I do not know enough to say 'always', only that I meant that in all the books I have read by him he has said his Spirtual Guide is Trijang Rinpoche and that the teachings come from him - I don't think I have ever read anything where he has said that his teachings that he is presenting come from Ling Rinpoche. This is why I suggested those edits for the time being. As for the removals of pictures of HHDL, from what I can tell he has nothing to do with the NKT, so there is no need for his pictures. All the best and thanks for putting up with me! Patrick

Hi again. You say here - ' As with the reference to the removal it is surely a fact' and 'Kay just gives this fact which is surely the case' . Do you actually know it is a fact - do you have the old and new books with you? For me, the first step to do with this statement from Kay is to see if it is true, so I am going to have a look for the books which he has quoted (if you can help that would be great). Some people have written that the Holocust didn't happen, and that the Sepetember 11th attacks were from the US Government or the Israel Government. So just because someone writes it in a book it does not make it a fact. Of course what he has written may be a fact, I am not saying this didn't happen (I didn't suggest deleating it from this page), just that I feel that both you and I have not actually seen the books he is refering to. Therefore, this is why I wanted to make it clear in my edits that it is 'according to Kays' because I feel that we can't actually verify it at the moment, but hopefully can in the future. All the best Patrick

Hi, I've just added a little edit to try and capture the points I made above. --Patrick K 13:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Patrick, the fact is that he removed the senior tutor of HHDL and Ganden Tripa, Ling Rinpoche, from the lineage Gurus and replaced him by himself. A lineage Guru or the Ganden Tripa is not nessaccarily once own root Guru (or one of once own root Gurus - normally there can be many root Gurus, because you can receive different Tantras from different teachers and this is a common behaviour), but one hold them in high respect. Thats why of course Ling Rinpoche as the present Ganden Tripa (to that time) was added. This humble attitude is common. The removal show the change in the mind of GKG who felt that Ling Rinpoche should be replaced by himself and make clear the split in his mind to the Gelug school authorities. So your addition of "and not Ling Rinpoche, so Kay may be mistaken. Please see the talk page for more details [[1]]." is itself mistaken, so I will remove it. Kay does not say that Ling Rinpoche is GKG root Guru, he just shows the removal to make clear the split. So your sentence is more confusioning than clarifying.
Please Patrick don't mind to much. I am really sorry for you when I read your passage: "I am really tired at the moment and have lost my inner peace a little, and can not think too straight!!" I see what struggle there is in you. For this I am really sorry. My wish is not to make you tired, loose your peace or increase your inside struggle/conflicts. This I am sorry for! You are confronted with this discussions because I and others felt responsible to work out a proper article what NKT is and you and NKT followers feel not good with that and maybe feel to defend some positions and engage in it. Also we have different views on what NKT is and how it functions, so we have a natural conflict in a way. This can be overcome by openness and unbiased. This I try, I do not say I have these qualities. My intention is even more to help necomers of Buddhism to get valid critical information so that they do not step blindly into NKT because they love the books of GKG and do not know much on his past and organisation. If people have proper information they can decide free minded. If critical information based on facts is not there people have no basis to proof their ways. Thats not freedom in a way.
As with the books: surely Kay is in the category of Wikipedia:reliable source and because he clearly states when the removal has taken place there is a high degree of validity to this information. It seems quite clear that he not took over this information and rather checked it himself, otherwise he wouldn't be able to say when it appeared and when it disappeared. If you whish you can write him an email and ask him directly: David Kay, Doctoral Student and Part-time Lecturer, Department of Religious Studies and Social Ethics, University College of St Martin, Lancaster, United Kingdom, d.kay@ucsm.ac.uk. I do not know if he will answer. What I know that his research is high recognised among scientists and Buddhists too and it would be quite unbelievebale that he didn't check this fact himself because he quotes no external source for this fact, so it must be recognized by his own fieldwork analysis. If we can not come to conclusion I think it is a good compromise to write "According to Kay.." but normally in such situations this is not common.
As with the teachers of GKG: He had of course different teachers. He agreed to have also listen to HHDL teachings but denied to receive tantric empowerments from him. In the monastic system he had many and different teachers, later he choosed Trijang Rinpoche as his root teacher. This is common. Uncommon is to over emphasize one root teacher and neglect all the others. So we don't know who were his other teachers, but there is the possibility too, that he received also Empowermenst from Ling Rinpoche into different Tantras. But because GKG prefers not to mention his other Lamas, we do not really know from whom he received what... However for the passage it is not that important. One person also critically remarked that behaviour some years ago:
"In the news group I am shocked to see how dreadfully Geshe Kelsang has managed to make his western followers completely blind. This often happens especially to those who are newer in Buddhism. In such a wide Buddhist world, he together with his administrators systematically make his innocent followers limit themselves to believing principally himself, GK, and secondly, Trichang Rinpoche and Kyabje Phapongka. In order to support his claim to represent a “pure Gelugpa lineage” he makes out that Trichang Rinpoche and Kyabje Phapongka are also acceptable (it is interesting to bear in mind that these two important lamas are no longer with us to support these claims). He makes his followers believe that he and these 2 lamas are the only important figures representing pure Gelukpa lineage. He ignores hundreds of other Geshes and Rinpoches of his time from his own and other monasteries. This intentional omission also applies to many important Lamas of Trichang Rinpoche and Phapogka Rinpoche’s time. All of the Geshes are equal to or often more eminent than GK, and at least no worse than GK, as far as attitude is concerned. He initiated a battle for private center organization with the pretext of a lineage and faith in a root guru."see [2]
Cheers and many regards. I wanted to make a pause but came back to chekc this discussion. However, I try to go on with my pause and hopefully you can understand my changes to your changes, please feel free to disagree if you see no reason in this. Take care, --Kt66 11:35, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I added and "other Gelug teachers". The reason is: GKG acknowledged that he received teachings by HHDL but denies to have received Tantric Teachings from him. GKG does not tell on his other teachers and from whom he received empowerments besides Trijang Rinpoche, but it is obvoius that he had different teachers in his Gelug education because Trijang Rinpoche did not taught Geshe Kelsangs Geshe classes and it is common to receive different techings and empowerments from different teachers but focus on the one most inspiring to oneself for the own practice. Also one of GKG'S teacher must be Zong Rinpoche too, because he gave empowerments during the stay of GKG at Majushri Institute when it still belonged to Lama Yeshe. But if he took part is not for sure to me. --Kt66 11:47, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inadequate sources

I have removed and rewritten several section of the article which were based on inadequate sources per WP:V, WP:RS and WP:LIVING. WP requires more reliable sources than a letter posted by some unknown individual on a free Geocities-hosted site. And USENET/Google groups posts are definitely not allowed as a source of information. Please find better sources if you wish to include the alleged expulsion from Sera Monastery in the article. Reliable sources would include published books, academic or other vetted journals, or official Sera Monastery publications, including their official website if they have one. Short of these sorts of reliable references, WP:LIVING prohibits the inclusion of negative information in the biography articles of living people, or for that matter, elsewhere on WP. Ekajati 15:56, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Please discuss what passage you with what reason can not rely on. The letter of Sera is a public letter and mentioned also in scientific works. Please do not cut the work of the many editors coming to a conclusion by mere changing as you like:
WP Guideline:
All editors are encouraged to be bold, but there are several things that a user can do to ensure that major edits are performed smoothly. Before engaging in a major edit, consider discussing proposed changes on the article discussion/talk page. During the edit, if doing so over an extended period of time, the inuse tag can reduce the likelihood of an edit conflict. Once the edit has been completed, the inclusion of an edit summary will assist in documenting the changes. These steps will all help to ensure that major edits are well received by the Wikipedia community.
Thank you for your consideration, --Kt66 19:35, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I repeat, material published on free hosted websites such as Geocities is not permitted. Neither is blog, Google group, Yahoo group, mailing list, or other internet forum. I removed material which was only supported by such "references". If you wish to support this information, you will have to find books or journals and cite them. Only the most reliable and reputable sources are permitted for negative information about living people per WP:LIVING. Editors are required to remove negative information which is inadequately supported. I shall continue to do so per WP policy. Ekajati 20:23, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I repeat: The Sera Letter is an official document and is used in scientific works too, it is also acknowledged by Kelsang Gyatso. So I revert once more and please lets discuss point by point and don't offer an instant reversion of the article. --Kt66 20:34, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
It's not good enough to assert that. You must cite a reputable source. Ekajati 20:42, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok do what ever you like. Another will do the work. I have done enough. Take care. --Kt66 20:50, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, you have not bothered to read the official policy on the biographies of living people which I have pointed out many times. It's all in there. Ekajati 20:53, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I ask you to discuss the paragraphs step by step here at the talk page. However I will make a month pause at WP --Kt66 21:21, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] rewrite of the article

I will rewrite the article. Is was a product of many editors and their discussions, now the basis of the article (like publications of Geshe Kelsang at google.group and the publication of the Expulsion Letter by Thubten Gonpo) was removed from the article and other sources and remarks have no qualified published source (like the statements of Geshe Kelsang on his past), so I will all this remove and ask other who wish to re-include it by giving sources accepted by WP Rules. I will add sources published according to WP rules. Thank you for your consideration, please fell free to discuss, oppose and contibute to improve the article. --Kt66 08:59, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I think there is more work needed for the article to improve it. Take it as a start. --Kt66 10:54, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Please care that the article is balanced. I concentrated more on the controversies. I just added BBC. To not tend to let the article become too onesided I abstain from putting in the article the critical notes of David N. Kay about his policy after the retreat and let there just the statement of NKT. The critical notes on the retreat were included in the NKT article still - as far as I remember. It would be nice if more engage to imrpove the article and care for its balance. Thanky to all the editors. --Kt66 10:12, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Have a look at

Hi Ekajati, it would be fine if you can have a look at Geshe Kelsang Gyatso if the article is fair, unbiased uses proper language and leave your comment for improving it there. Thanyk you, --Kt66 11:22, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

It looks much better!!! Thanks to you and Hanuman Das! Looks like you both did a lot of work over the weekend! Ekajati 18:14, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] bibliography

I'd like to suggest adding a section entitled 'bibliography' and list all of the books written by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. I think this is fairly standard practice for a biography. Regards Excellentone 16:47, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

nice. just do it. --Kt66 00:42, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV "One of the strongest tenants of Buddhism is to never forsake your teachers teachings."

some NKT follower stated (and I removed it from the article):

One of the strongest tenants of Buddhism is to never forsake your teachers teachings. Both Geshele Kelsang Gyatso and the Dalai Lama had the same teacher, Geshele has never forsaken Trijang's teachings, therein lies the conflicts listed below. Trijang demanded Geshele go to the West, to preserve the pure lineage teachings, which he understood would be extinguished in Tibet. We are all Buddha's in the makeing. Do not make up your mind about this mountain of compassion without meeting him personaly. If you should ask him in person, if he is the "third Buddha" his answer will be laughter.68.164.2.147 20:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)Dwain Kitchel(a poor example of a student of NKT and this wise teacher)
some points to the content of this POV:
Where is the quote in the scriptures for your claim:
One of the strongest tenants of Buddhism is to never forsake your teachers teachings.?
This claim is not in the Buddha's teaching or in a teaching of the Indian masters nor is it in one of Tsongkhapa's teachings. The Buddha's teaching (see Vinaya) as well as that of Tsongkhapa (see his commentary on Guru reliance) state, when the teaching of the teacher is not in accordance with the Dharma forsake it, don't follow it. Never they taught to follow wrong teachings or errors. Shugden practice can be seen as against Buddha's doctrine (if one sees it as secterian - sectarianism is always against the doctrine of the Buddha, see the scriptures) or can be seen as in accordance with what the Buddha has taught. What you'll see depends upon your discriminating intelligence (wisdom) and ability to have valid recognitions. When the Dalai Lama understands this topic on Shugden different and even better than one of his earlier main teachers, than this is a common thing in Buddhism and it is wished for, that the desciple becomes more wise than his teachers. This happened many times in the Buddhist history. Just study the biografies of past masters. There is an example of one of the Lorig and Tarig lineage masters (when I remember correctly it was Dharmakirti) who had heard the teaching on logic (Dignaga’s Pramanasamuccaya) from his teacher Ishvarasena. The first time Dharmakirti listend his teacher's teaching he understood it as good as his master did. The second time he listend he understood it better than his master. The third time he recognized the faults in the teaching of his master, Ishvarasena. After this third time Dharmakirti went to his master and said it to him. Then his master replied: Oh you have a better understanding than me, please I ask you to teach it. (So he had no problems that his desciple had a better understanding than him!) For some furthrt examples lets look on a short extract on the Heart Sutra commentry by HH the Dalai Lama. May it be of help!
DEFINITIVE VERSUS PROVISIONAL INTERPRETATIONS
Earlier we observed that one of the principal features of the Buddha's teachings is that they were spoken to accord with the varying spiritual and mental needs and dispositions of the listeners. The tenets of the various schools can similarly be viewed as fulfilling these diverse needs. We have just seen how the Mind-only School distinguishes definitive from provisional teachings, and in fact each school has its own criteria for determining whether a teaching of the Buddha is definitive or provisional. In each case, the process is similar: first, one uses analysis to determine the Buddha's ultimate intention in making a particular statement; second, one determines the Buddha's contextual rationale for making a particular statement; and third, one demonstrates the logical inconsistency, if any, that arises when the particular statement is taken literally. The need for such an approach is found in the Buddha's own sutras. There is a verse in which Buddha urges his followers to take his words as they might accept from a'jeweler a metal that appears to be gold: only after seeing that the metal does not tarnish when burned, can be easily cut, and can be polished to a bright shine should the metal be accepted as gold. Thus, the Buddha gives us his permission to critically examine even his own teachings. Buddha suggests we make a thorough inquiry into the truth of his words and verify them for ourselves, and only then "accept them, but not out of reverenced". Taking direction from statements such as these, ancient Indian monastic universities, such as Nalanda, developed a tradition whereby students would critically subject their own teachers' scholastic work to analysis. Such critical analysis was seen in no way to go against the great admiration and reverence the students had for their teachers. The famous Indian master Vasubandhu, for example, had a disciple known as Vimuktisena, who was said to excel Vasubandhu in his understanding of the Perfection of Wisdom sutras. He questioned Vasubandhu's Mind-only interpretation and instead developed his own understanding of the sutras in accord with the Middle Way School. An example of this in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition is Alak Damchoe Tsang, who was one of the disciples of the great nineteenth-century Nyingma master Ju Mipham. Although Alak Damchoe Tsang had tremendous admiration and reverence for his teacher, he voiced his objections to some of Miphams writings. Once a student of Alak DamchoeTsang is said to have asked if it was appropriate to critically object to the writings of his own teacher. Alak Damchoe Tsang’s immediate response was, "If one's great teacher says things that are not correct, one must take even ones lama to task!" There is a Tibetan saying, "Retain your reverence and admiration for the person, but subject the writing to thorough critical analysis." This demonstrates a healthy attitude and illustrates the Buddhist tradition known as the approach of the four reliances:
Do not rely merely on the person, but on the words;
Do not rely merely on the words, but on their meaning;
Do not rely merely on the provisional meaning, but on the definitive meaning; and
Do not rely merely on intellectual understanding, but on direct experience.
The same is with what Atisha and Tsongkhapa did: they revised the teachings of their teachers and corrected errors and misunderstandings. Atisha when critisised by Serlingpa about his Madhyamaka view answered to Serlingpa, who followed Chittamatra school: What ever you say: I will not give up my view and the more you talk about your Chittamatra view I'll see more more clearly that my Madhyamaka view is correct.
However Atisha was nevertheless grateful to Serlingpa and honoured him as his most important master. You can apply these understanding to the Shugden topic as well.
I found another summerize of some examples to the subject matter and put it here:
Therefore, Arya Vimuktisena, whose teacher was Vasubhandu, saw that Vasubhandu’s manner of explanation of the Abhisamayalankara had been more affected by his own personal bias towards a particular position than being a true reflection of the author’s ultimate intent. He therefore composed a commentary refuting that view, displacing it with a Madhyamaka interpretation. Now was this a case of a corruption of the spiritual guide – disciple relationship on Arya Vimuktisena's part or of him showing disrespect for Vasubhandu? It was neither of these things.
Then we could look at accounts of the relationship between Jowo Je Atisha and his teacher Serlingpa. Serlingpa was the teacher who Atisha himself accredited as the one who helped him most in his quest to generate bodhicitta. In this area, he was like his root Lama. Despite this, on the philosophical level they were at variance. Serlingpa held the Cittamatra view. Accounts have it that Serlingpa congratulated Atisha for his practise of bodhicitta, whilst informing him that as far as his philosophical view was concerned he was incorrect. Atisha said though that Serlingpa’s instructions only served to boost his confidence in the correctness of the middle way view.
Likewise, we have the case of Dharmakirti. Vasubhandu had many students, one of whom was Dignaga. He was said to have been the one who surpassed even his own master in terms of his understanding of Pramana. Dignaga then had a disciple called Ishvarasena. He in turn had Dharmakirti as a student. Dharmakirti heard explanation of Dignaga’s Pramanasamuccaya text from Ishvarasena, but rejected Ishvarasena's interpretation. He then incorporated Ishvarasena’s views as the objects of attack in sections of his Pramanavarttika. Thus, when it comes to helping to clarify the doctrine, creating, and rectifying mistakes, even one's own teacher may come under criticism. One can see it in terms of one's teacher having given certain instructions directed at a few specific individuals (when there is a need to give a different message). Whilst this might generally work though, it would be difficult to square in the above-mentioned case of Vasubhandu. At least in the way that Haribhadra has put it, it sounds as though it was Vasubhandu’s own bias (as opposed to consideration of any particular disciple) that led him to interpret things in the way that he did. Anyway, whether the original reasons for certain interpretations were due to individual students, other considerations or plain misunderstanding, it may prove necessary for later individuals to clarify things. Rectifying, clarifying and the like are generally accepted approaches for the learned and completely in step with the correct general approach to the teachings. This is way to proceed and help to guard against decline. (see http://www.dalailama.com/page.153.htm)
Another view you'll find here:
Based on his realization, Tsongkhapa revised completely the understanding of the Prasangika-Madhyamaka teachings on voidness and related topics that the teachers and learned masters of his day had held. In this regard, he was a radical reformer with the courage to go beyond current beliefs when he found them inadequate.
Tsongkhapa always based his reforms strictly on logic and scriptural references. When he established his own view as the deepest meaning of the great Indian texts, he was not committing a breach of his close bond and relationship with his teachers. Seeing our spiritual teachers as Buddhas does not mean that we can not go beyond them in our realizations. Tsenzhab Serkong Rinpoche II explained this with the following example.
To make a cake, we need to put together many ingredients – flour, butter, milk, eggs, and so on. Our teachers show us how to make a cake and bake a few for us. They may be very delicious and we may enjoy them greatly. Due to our teachers’ kindness, we now know how to make a cake. This does not mean that we cannot make some changes, add some different ingredients, and bake cakes that are even more delicious than those our teachers made. In doing so, we are not being disrespectful toward our teachers. If the teachers are really qualified, they will rejoice in our improvement on the recipe and enjoy the new cakes with us. (see http://www.berzinarchives.com/bioghaphies/short_biography_lama_tsongkhapa.html)
your claim Both Geshele Kelsang Gyatso and the Dalai Lama had the same teacher, Geshele has never forsaken Trijang's teachings, therein lies the conflicts listed below. I feel as contorting and on a very surfaced level. Firstly they had teachers (not a single one) and they 'shared' mainly one of them, the junior tutor of HH the Dalai Lama, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. When I use the term 'shared' maybe it is useful to acknowldge that GKG had not the same education as HH the Dalai Lama and also was not tutored in private by HH Trijang Rinpoche. Better not to put GKG at the same level as HH the Dalai Lama. Further the senior tutor of HH the Dalai Lama, Kyabje Ling Rinpoche didn't taught HHDL to follow Shugden, instead he showed people how to follow the Buddhist path without Shugden...in short from my POV the conflicts doesn't lie in "forsaken Trijang's teachings" as you claimed.
I have not the time to argue further, maybe this gives some other perspective to you or the reader and lights the subject matter more differntiated. Regards, Kt66 00:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your great exposition of my POV edit to the main article. I call myself a "poor student" at the end of signing my name because Geshele would not approve of me being involved with defending his name. It is wasting time i should be studying the dharma, in his correct view. Dwain Kitchel(i have self edited this long winded response of mine, because brevity isn't one of my strengths unless writing poetry) Dwaink 23:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


Wow! I will read your reply in the next days. Thank you for your efforts! Regards, --Kt66 23:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Kt66 i must admit to making this reply before fully reading all these sections, i see that you are a former NKTer, but one that has had a bad outcome from that experience. Dwain Kitchel(edited personal stuff) Dwaink 23:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Dear Dwain Kitchel, sorry but personal stuff should be discussed privat or on the usersites. I made the same fault in the past. I have put a short reply to your former contribution at my usersite see here]. Let's please discuss here only what can be improved on the article. It's my fault that I could not resist to make a comment on your statement, however WP is no discussion forum and I will resist to answer personal experiences. Enough has been stated and published at different places, both pro's and con's alike. Many regards, --Kt66 00:57, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The article makes every effort to "paint" Geshele as someone who represents great negatives: he was thrown out by his abbots, he runs a cult, he has insulted the Dalai Lama, his followers are sheep, NKT teachers are fly paper waiting to trap unwary migrators. Where in the article is the balance to this? Oh some people allow his books to be used? Nothing is mentioned about all of these conflicts being related to the same thing, a refusal to break his vows to his root guru. It is one thing to state his sins and little else, it is quite another to present a balanced article that deals with these issues from both sides. The article allows mention of his expulsion, without ever covering why, how is this correct? How is his expulsion a valid fact? How do you kick out someone gone 20 years ago? He is excommunicated by the abbots? He was a valid community member for 20 years and then suddenly he is not? An article that has claim to be unbiased would question that don't you think? Would it also hold the statement that some sections were being written by an ex NKTer with a terrible bias?? Both of us may tell the same "facts" but by the slant of our telling we may tell two distinct versions of the same story. The representation that he runs a cult, is like me asking you if you are still beating your wife every night? No matter what is answered the insinuation remains, that you beat your wife. You can no more prove that NKT is a cult, than i can prove that you have finnaly stopped beating your wife. I have been a member of this "cult" for nearly 20 years, i come and go as i please, they may remove me from their rolls if i am gone too long, they never have done this, they are always happy to see me back. They send no drones after me to insure that i do not leave the fold, they do not send me death threats if i speak out about my experiences. What sort of cult is that...where is that fact in this article??? They remain completely open to these spurious article's attacks, in it anyone who acts as if they wish to promote him are only allowed facts. And yet though there is no proof Geshele has ever said "i am the THIRD BUDDHA", but that unfactual claim is implied by the statement that some of his followers may have said this. It is not a fact, it should be stricken from this article. Have you ever heard Geshele say this? No you have not, because i know you haven't, because he would never say such a stupid thing. He has stated clearly that he never did anything inappropriate about the Dorge Shugden affair in his open letter to the Post, that is a fact. Yet no where do i see this posted openly. You may think he lied, but you have no proof, why is this fact not listed openly? I may list as a fact about your personal life, that some pyschologist listed you as a potential homophobe, only i leave the truth about this spurious accusation on some page 10 link jumps away, where a homosexual friend of yours says that he has been your friend for years and knows that you are not a homophobe. People will think you are a homophobe, before they jump somewhere else to find the hidden truth. I can call you a jack booted rascist because i once saw you cut in line in front of Jewish person, and you are German so the idiocy of that lie may stick. The lie that Geshele is a cult leader is difficult to disprove, especially so when the accused has no desire or interest to defend himself or engage here because his beliefs tell him it is a pointless struggle. Still as someone who knows this is not a cult it offends me to no end, it is as offensive as me calling you a rascist. There is no proof, nothing in an encyclopedia that is not fact or statement from the person the article is written about should be included. Remove all mention of him leading a cult and being the third buddha, include both points of view at every mention of an action involved with the Dorje Shugden controversy, if he is to be listed as controversial then so should the Dalai Lama, in the same sentence or remove it. It should state; Because of a controversial ruleing by the Dalia Lama, Geshele is considered by some to be a controversial Buddhist leader. No where should it state that he is considered by some to be a cult leader, without equally mentioning that there is absolutely no proof of this slanderous statement and in fact no one can find any instance where cult like actions have been taken toward someone. Sure you can say he stripped someone of their standing in "his" right as leader of this group, it is his responsibility is it not? In an opinon you might state that you think he is 'such and such' because of something, in an authoratative article in an encyclopedia this is not allowed, it is all POV and as my addition to the article was removed as such, so should these spurious claims or it isn't an authoritative encyclopedia article, it is a hatchet job by someone with an axe to grind. As it stands it is a hatchet job, and as such it is offensive to me. A good lawyer would make enough money off of the slander in this 'article' to keep NKT going for many years. Wiki should be aware of that. It should be balanced or removed. Dwain Kitchel

to make it short: because these are facts that he has been expelled from the Sangha (Monastery), that he was involved denouncing the Dalai Lama and that he has set up many Buddhists and has drawn the media attention, because he has been citizised for overtaking control at Manjushri centre and because he has estbalished himself as the lasting authority in NKT and so on and because there exist WP:reliable sources for this, it is stated here. That's it. If there exist information which tells the opposite of this and belong to WP:relibale sources it can be put in the article. If you have a quote about "a refusal to break his vows to his root guru" just add it. Because a monk belongs to the ordained Sangha and the ordained Sangha is responsible for the members they have the possibility and duty to expell someone who damages the rules of the Sangha. If you want to know more you have to write to the Sera monastery where GKG has belonged to in the past until he was expelled. However this will be a primary source. The quote of von Brück tells a little bit. If GKG has raised up that much controversies it is not the fault of the article, is it? However your welcomed to improve the article. It seems still not to be that good. What are your specific suggestions? The third Buddha claim has been stated in different sources and was stated by his official former successor and also published by the NKT themselves. GKG is skilful enough to establish himself not directly as a Buddha he does it indirectly. Also when NKT announces him as "a fully accomplished meditation master" this is just another word for claiming he is a Buddha. Maybe it is not needed to explain this in detail once more. There are sources for it, so it can be stated. your claim: "Because of a controversial ruleing by the Dalia Lama, Geshele is considered by some to be a controversial Buddhist leader." I can not follow he is regarded as a controversial leader because of his behaviour and controversial deeds. Of course NKT members see it not that way. To balance this we can put in the views of the NKT members of course, this would be a good idea. Do you have some sources for this? Regards, --Kt66 14:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I joined wiki today, with the cause of clearing Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's name. My first attempts to complete this task, will be to petition wiki to recognize the slant of this article. That because, it rises to the level of unbalanced slander. My suggestions that it be balanced by user Kt66 have included mention of the fact that it states: Expulsed from Sera Monastery, with no link to the the clear fact that this did not occured until after the Shugden controversy. A lay person not completely aware of this controversy would have no indication that a controversial reversal of doctrine was done by the Dalai Lama, before this expulsion happened. They would have no reason to search further links, it seems pretty clearly stated he was a bad monk, and they kicked him out, no reasoning is listed. It is not my duty to balance this statement, i did not make the one sided statement. Controversy is implied with no balance as well, not my duty to change slanderous statements to make them unslanderous. KT66 seems to think this is an arguement about Buddhist scholarship, it is clearly the case of slander in a bio of a living person, either he must rectify this mistake or wiki at large must face the possible legal actions. Most dangerous is the mention of Geshe Kelsang being considered a cult leader, or claiming himself to be a "God". I use the term God because people who have not studied Buddhism will have no ability to discern the difference of the slander of being accused of calling oneself the "third Buddha". They will think instantly that he is crazy and deluded by this charge. This charge that he is a cult leader is founded in no fact, it is point of view slander. No mediating action has been allowed by the poster to maintian wiki's own policy on negative statements about a living person and fair light, this portray's a good man in a highly charged negative light with no balance and no substatiation of the charges. It is slanderous. I am not going to change it, my attempts to make changes have been met with POV revert, when the statements on this article are exactly that, POV slander with no mediation. So i will seek recourse through wiki's own boards,failing timely response, then with governmental orginizations, newspapers, FCC, law firms and schools until the need for quick remedy is forced on wiki.Dwaink 17:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Kt66 i have edited out personal rant stuff, am learning this wiki way(brevity) and i will have difficulty with it because this is a long subject. I still stand(after searching and reading)behind my contention that it is slanderous because of it ommissions, ommissions we may never be able to add 'source' wise. Thank u for not "biteing this newbie" while i get up to speed. I think these sections should be removed if source for the other side can not be obtained. I have little doubt what me writing Sera monastery will produce(the party line). This party line will not add to both sides of this issue.Dwaink 23:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

If we can not remove the slander of cult insinuation then i offer some section of this abstract as being inserted to disclaim,define what a cult is or isn't. I can provide the needed refrences.: Joining a 'cult': religious choice or psychological aberration? From: Journal of Law and Health | Date: March 22, 1996 | Author: Davis, Dena S.

II. What Is A "Cult"?

According to the anti-cult Cult Awareness Network, a cult is "a closed system whose followers have been unethically and deceptively recruited through the use of manipulative techniques of thought reform or mind control."(7) Probably the best definition comes from sociologists Melton and Moore, who explain, only somewhat tongue-in-cheek, that "cults are religions that espouse an alien belief system that deviates strongly from the traditional faiths with which most people have grown up."(8) For sociologists, a cult is the starting point of every religion, at the stage where there is simply a charismatic leader and an enthusiastic band of followers, who have not yet developed anything more than the simplest organizational structure. Most cults die before they get beyond this stage; others become more bureaucratized, as happened to Christianity.(9) However, when the term cult is used today, we know that the subject is a controversial "high demand" religion, or some other group which has come to be associated with the term in the minds of the media. As we shall soon see, there is much disagreement even among the most strident anti-cultists as to which groups fit the category. Leo Pfeffer suggests: "[i]f you believe in it, it is a religion or perhaps the religion; and if you do not care one way or another about it, it is a sect; but if you fear and hate it, it is a cult."(10) Meanwhile, social scientists proffer phrases such as "alternative religions," "marginal churches," "new religious movements," and so on. ..........

The second assumption, that membership necessarily entails a pathological state, is also the subject of much debate. On one level, as Melton and Moore point out, this is an a priori argument which does not lend itself to empirical proof. "If one has a religious stance that assumes a person of another faith is either deluded by false teachers or inspired by demonic forces, then a negative interpretation of a person's involvement in a religious group . . . outside the national religious consensus is guaranteed."(49) Melton & Moore, Supra note 8, at 40.Dwaink 01:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

One of the strongest tenants of Buddhism is to never forsake your teachers teachings.?

This claim is not in the Buddha's teaching or in a teaching of the Indian masters nor is it in one of Tsongkhapa's teachings.

The Buddha clearly stated to use discrimination before choseing to follow his path, but once one has taken a spiritual guide and made vows, he is also clear. From the sutra's: "Good man, if one wishes to accomplish the wisdom of all wisdom, then one must decisively seek a true good knowing [spiritual] advisor. Good man, in seeking for a good knowing advisor, do not become weary or lax. And upon seeing a good knowing advisor, do not become satiated. As to a good knowing advisor and all his teachings, you must follow and accord. As to expedient devices employed by a good knowing advisor, do not find faults."Dwaink 21:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


>>If you have a quote about "a refusal to break his vows to his root guru" just add it.<< In his letter to Newsweek he comes very close to expressing this in his own words, close enough to leave no doubt.

"Many thousands of disciples of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, the Spiritual Guide of the present Dalai Lama, have suffered under this treatment but we do not wish to give up this practice because it is a commitment received from our root Gurus, and because we know from our own experience that it is a very meaningful practice for the development of spiritual realizations. So now we are in a very sad and difficult situation." Dwaink 18:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Here we have in Lama Zopa's own words proof that Trijang Rinpoche taught and held the beliefs of Shugden Practice. And indirect proof that he never renounced these practices, the same vows he took from his root guru and passed down to Geshe Kelsang. Also an interesting bit about "worry" that these lineage practices might pass away...and to not worry about that because "others" keep that practice alive. How would this be true if Geshe Kelsang Gyatso didn't keep them alive? How can we slander a man for doing what needs to be done?This part of his letter does a magnificent job of tip toeing around this whole Dorje Shugdan subject...stateing both sides.

...."" My root guru, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche; Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s guru’s root guru; His Holiness Song Rinpoche, from whom many of the older students received the initiation of Shugden; and the previous incarnation of Gomo Rinpoche, who has a strong connection with Istituto Lama Tzong Khapa, here in Italy, all promoted the practice of Shugden. They were all aspects of the Dharmakaya.

I myself took the initiation of Shugden from His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche. There were four of us—Lama Yeshe, Claudio Cipullo, Piero Cerri and myself. However, this initiation can be given to only three people at a time; there cannot be four. Kyabje Rinpoche had set up the altar and made all the preparations perfectly—of course, everything he did was always perfect—and was there, waiting for us. After the four of us sat down, he said, “You cannot be four; only three. Whoever has bodhicitta, who has let go of the I and cherishes others, should leave.” Lama shot up immediately. I just sat there like a donkey, as if I were made of stone. So then the three of us, Claudio, Piero and I, took the initiation.

Of course, Lama and I practiced Shugden for many years. That was always the main thing that Lama did whenever there were problems to overcome. At the beginning of every Kopan course, Lama always did Shugden puja to eliminate hindrances. Of course, this was not Lama’s principal practice. His principal practice was bodhicitta, emptiness, clear light, illusory body and so forth. The protector puja was done simply to overcome obstacles.

However, all these lamas giving different kinds of advice are all manifestations of the Dharmakaya. The point is that many great lamas who had incredible qualities and were of unbelievable benefit in Tibet, preserving and spreading the stainless teaching of Lama Tsong Khapa, advised against the practice of Shugden.

Similarly, His Holiness is of enormous benefit to sentient beings and, furthermore, has taken on the incredible burdens of his position. Therefore, it has become crucial that we support him, especially in his efforts on behalf of Tibet. This is very important and the main reason we changed—why Kopan changed; why I changed [i.e., stopped practicing Shugden]. As I understood how hard His Holiness works and what heavy burdens he has assumed, I changed. How could I be against His Holiness? There was no way. The only thing to do was to support, serve and help him. That’s the main thing.


The next question—and here, I’m just posing hypothetical questions and giving the answers, like the debate texts do—that comes up for some people is that if the incarnation of His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche doesn’t practice, the lineage of Shugden will degenerate and die out. Some people might think this because in his previous life, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche was the main lama preserving this lineage, which had come down through his root guru, Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo. To that, I say there’s no need to worry because many other people do the practice, so the lineage will not get lost.

Then, some people say that this practice should continue because it promotes wealth and prosperity in the world. In response, I say that the practice of Shugden is not necessary for wealth. There are many rich and powerful countries in the world, like Saudi Arabia and the USA, that don’t practice Shugden. They haven’t taken the initiation; they haven’t made a commitment to practice. As everybody knows, wealth and prosperity comes from merit and virtue; from the creation of good karma.

After Guru Shakyamuni Buddha left his father’s palace but before he began to practice Buddhism, he practiced Hinduism. That’s not because he didn’t know that Hinduism was not the way. It was to show sentient beings that his first choice was wrong and that Buddhism was the right path.

At one point, when things in Tibet became very difficult politically, His Holiness came to Dromo Geshe Rinpoche’s monastery in southern Tibet. At that time the Tibetan government could not decide whether His Holiness should go on to India or back to Lhasa. So His Holiness and his ministers consulted Dromo Geshe Rinpoche’s monastery’s protector, the one in question. Through the oracle, Shugden said that His Holiness should not go to India. This protected Tibet for another year or for so. What I have heard is that after that experience, His Holiness would recite prayers to Shugden regularly. However, after many years of analysis, when His Holiness was about to take the initiation of Shugden, he received signs in a dream that he should not. As a result, he didn’t take the initiation.

This is the same as what Guru Shakyamuni Buddha did. He first became enlightened inconceivably long ago, not, as history tells us, two-and-a-half thousand years ago in India. According to the Theravada tradition, that’s what happened, but the Mahayana does not accept this—we believe he became enlightened inconceivably long ago. Therefore, as an enlightened being, how can the Buddha make a mistake? He simply practiced Hinduism to show sentient beings that it was the wrong path. This is just what His Holiness did; he practiced Shugden to show us it was wrong."".... http://www.lamayeshe.com/lamazopa/shugden.shtmlDwaink 18:00, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

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