Talk:Kangnido map

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[edit] old talk (may be unorganized, unsigned and out of date order)

Some of the claims made for this map are exaggerated. If it describes the "totality" of the old world, where is India? For that matter where is SE Asia? Actually the area labelled as Africa seems to correspond with one of these to some degree. There is no detail at all in the depiction of Europe's coastland, and what's that hole in Africa. It shows only the vaguest grasp of shape and proportion beyond South China. I'm not Japanese by the way. Wincoote 09:39, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Added an explanatory map. Please see the following cartography link for details: The Kangnido mapPHG 10:38, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Just for comparison, this map was redrawn in the 1400s, by Europeans, using Ptolemy's World Map of 150CE as the basis: Image:PtolemyWorldMap.jpg. It is well known that a large corpus of geographical knowledge existed prior to the European Voyages of Discovery - perhaps the article shouldn't make it sound like such a startling revelation! Also, there is fairly good depiction of the European coastland in the Kangndido Map - but unfortunately even now it doesn't show up well in the pictures used in the article. Looking at the outlines given at Henry Davis's site (in the external links), the Black Sea, Spain and Italy appear quite distinctly. Probably the most fascinating point of interest in this map is the way southern Africa is detailed, and this is a major point of controversy (although Africa was circumnavigated in very ancient times, later ancient civilisations tended to see these earlier reports are merely legendary, so they didn't contribute to the geographical knowledge available). I think the article could go into greater depth on the African point. --131.111.8.97 12:04, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

For this page don't use Korean reading, I changed. - ko:사용자:Galadrien

With all due respect, I must agree with the points above. The Kangnido map may represent extensive Asian geographical knowledge of the era, but it hardly describes the "totality of the Old World". Especially given the Ptolemaic map pointed out above (which itself naturally does not describe anything past Arabia very well). Are the labels on the Kangnido map clear? For I can't see any (not that I could read them anyway :p). In the absence of labels, identifying any nation or region in the western part of the map is pure speculation. I know, it's easy for us with 20/20 hindsight to sit here and point out such things.... As for the hole in the middle of "Africa": Probably it represents a region for which they had no data (think "deepest darkest Africa"), so it remains uncoloured as if it were an inland sea. --Jquarry 21:36, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

These are all very interesting points - perhaps we should start a History of cartography article to discuss these issues. --Oldak Quill 22:59, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I must agree that this seems a little far-fetched: The area named as Africa and Europe here resembles far more India than anything else. I would believe the arabian peninsula is more likely to indicate the Ganges estuary than anything else. There is one very positive thing however; and that is the quite remarkable accuracy in depicting the shoreline of China - especially considering the relatively poor seamanship of the chinese at this time. SWA 23:22, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC) In short: THIS ARTICLE IS HIGHLY DISPUTED!! SWA 11:58, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Maybe, but please read an example of schorlarly analysis associated to this map [1]. Continent shapes may be poorly represented, but I do not know of any academic analysis so far doubting that the African and European continent are represented on this map. The main rationale is that Arab maps of the West were available to China since the time of the Mongol conquests (Joseph Needham, also discussed in "Art in the Age of exploration" ISBN 0300051670). PHG 12:31, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think the problem is that for whatever reason the mapmakers did not fill in the Mediterranean with black as they did for other bodies of water, though it is clearly outlined. This does make it rather hard to see Europe. The one image in the article that labels the Mediterranean does make this clear, though. Any idea why they would not fill in the Mediterranean as they did the other seas?

Reference should also be made to Gary Ledyard, "Cartography in Korea," in *Cartography in the Traditional East and Southeast Asian Societies*, ed. J. B. Harley and David Woodward, vol. 2.2 of *The History of Cartography* (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1994), 235-345, esp. 244-49. Among other things, Ledyard reminds us that the map that survives was made ca. 1470, from an older original, ca. 1402; the failure to fill the Mediterranean and Black seas with wave patterns might have originated with the now lost 1402 original, the surviving image, or an some putative intermediate image. Ledyard agrees that the left-hand 'promontory' is Africa, with Arabia just beside. (I looked into this because I too wondered about the depiction of India; but Ledyard argues that India actually constitutes the left-hand side of China, the two regions making "a monstrous cell that has not yet divided."John green 20:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] disputed

flagged as factually disputed. see 1421 hypothesis 128.114.60.186 10:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The Kangnido map is scarcely discussed on that talk page; please be more specific about what you consider to be disputed. -- Visviva 11:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)