Talk:Kaddish

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kaddish is part of WikiProject Judaism, a project to improve all articles related to Judaism. Judaism Portal If you would like to help improve this and other articles related to the subject, consider joining the project. All interested editors are welcome. This template adds articles to Category:WikiProject Judaism articles.

Project Judaism To-do: edit purge watch Here are some tasks you can do: Requests: Jewish and Biblical Units of Measurement or some such name, to include material of Ancient Hebrew units of measurement but also Talmudic units and use in Halacha (a la the Hebrew Wikipedia article he:מידות ומשקלות תורניים) Collaboration of the week The current Orthodox Rabbinical Biography Collaboration of the Week is Rabbi Chaim Michael Dov Weissmandl. The current Judaism Collaboration of the Week is Ghetto mentality. Translate Please note that in many instances, projects related to Torah study proceed much faster in Hebrew than in English. Mikraot Gedolot (rabbinic bible) at Wikisource in English (sample) and Hebrew (sample). Mishnah at Wikisource - Hebrew text with translation and commentary; there is also a Hebrew version. Shulchan Aruch at Wikisource - Hebrew text with English translation New projects Mikraot Gedolot Project at Hebrew Wikisource Megillot Mikraot Gedolot Eikhah Copyedit: see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Rival Biblical views Cleanup: Jewish mythology - needs to be rewritten to be inline with our other mythology articles. Expand: Wikiversity: School of Jewish Studies. Part of the new open content university, Wikiversity. Stubs: Category:Judaism stubs, Category:Tanakh stubs Update: Portal:Judaism is WikiProject Judaism's frequently updated portal. You can help make this the best portal on Wikipedia. Look at the talk page to see how you can help.

What about a section discussing the sociological aspects of the mourner's Kaddish? Eg. The Orthodox Jewish custom that only male relatives recite the Kaddish, and the dilemma which arises when there are no male heirs etc. Also the minimum age for reciting the Kaddish (Bar Mitvah), and the cultural aspects that non-Jewish readers might not appreciate, such as the fact that the prayer is generally recited by older members of a congregation, and the stigma/sadness/meaning(?) when teenagers have to recite the prayer for their parents. Also references to Jewish literary and other pop culture sources on the Kaddish (in addition to the books and essays, I recall an episode of the show Tour of Duty where the Lt. recites Kaddish for a fallen Jewish soldier,) and the question of whether it is appropriate to recite the prayer for non-Jews.

Contents 1 Reworking 2 Text 3 Update, october 2005 4 Translation and transliteration 5 New "text of kaddish" 6 Yitgaddel veyitqaddesh vs. Yitgaddal veyitqaddash 7 Too POV. Rewrite. 8 11 months and Gehinom 9 Leon Wieseltier 10 Unicode

[edit] Reworking

OK. I'd like to recommend an almost complete reworking of this page, as follows: Kaddish: ==Background== *What is the Kaddish *What kinds of Kaddish exist *Text, Transliteration & Translation of Chatzi Kadish ==Origin & History== *Origin :Why is it in Aramaic? *History :Talmud :Inclusion in Siddur ==Purpose== :Praise :Role in Liturgy :Standardization ==Types of Kaddish== [[Kadish Shalem]] [[Kadish Yatom]] [[Kadish dRabanan]] [[Chatzi Kadish]] [[Graveside Kaddish]] others where the text of each individual kaddish could be put into the individual articles "types of Kaddish" articles, along with transliterations and translations of each, and a background of each, including its role in the liturgy. ==Related Topics== ==External Links==

TShilo12 08:06, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Text

What on earth is the point of giving the text of the Kaddish in another language that most English-speakers can't even read, much less understand? We should either give a translation or not have it at all. john k 03:24, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

This was a project that was started and never finished. I'll try to get back to it in the near future. Tomer ^TALK 17:29, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Update, october 2005

I tried to move this along. Kaisershatner 17:56, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Translation and transliteration

At this site is given both a translation and a tranliteration.

TRANSLATION OF KADDISH

May the great Name of God be exalted and sanctified, throughout the world, which he has created according to his will. May his Kingship be established in your lifetime and in your days, and in the lifetime of the entire household of Israel, swiftly and in the near future; and say, Amen.

May his great name be blessed, forever and ever.

Blessed, praised, glorified, exalted, extolled, honored elevated and lauded be the Name of the holy one, Blessed is he- above and beyond any blessings and hymns, Praises and consolations which are uttered in the world; and say Amen. May there be abundant peace from Heaven, and life, upon us and upon all Israel; and say, Amen.

He who makes peace in his high holy places, may he bring peace upon us, and upon all Israel; and say Amen.

KADDISH TRANSLITERATION

Yis'ga'dal v'yis'kadash sh'may ra'bbo, b'olmo dee'vro chir'usay v'yamlich malchu'say, b'chayaychon uv'yomay'chon uv'chayay d'chol bais Yisroel, ba'agolo u'viz'man koriv; v'imru Omein.

Y'hay shmay rabbo m'vorach l'olam ul'olmay olmayo.

Yisborach v'yishtabach v'yispoar v'yisromam v'yismasay, v'yishador v'yis'aleh v'yisalal, shmay d'kudsho, brich hu, l'aylo min kl birchoso v'sheeroso, tush'bechoso v'nechemoso, da,ameeran b'olmo; vimru Omein.

Y'hay shlomo rabbo min sh'mayo, v'chayim alaynu v'al kol Yisroel; v'imru Omein.

Oseh sholom bimromov, hu ya'aseh sholom olaynu, v'al kol yisroel; vimru Omein.

The translation give here is fairly traditional, but I see no credit to a specific translator. DES ^(talk) 20:48, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

this site gives a similar but not identical tranalation:

Translation --

Glorified and sanctified be God's great name throughout the world which He has created according to His will.

May He establish His kingdom in your lifetime and during your days, and within the life of the entire House of Israel, speedily and soon; and say, Amen.

May His great name be blessed forever and to all eternity.

Blessed and praised, glorified and exalted, extolled and honored, adored and lauded be the name of the Holy One, blessed be He, beyond all the blessings and hymns, praises and consolations that are ever spoken in the world; and say, Amen.

May there be abundant peace from heaven, and life, for us and for all Israel; and say, Amen.

He who creates peace in His celestial heights, may He create peace for us and for all Israel; and say, Amen.

this site gives line by line hebrew, transliteration, and english traslation for the Mourner's Kaddish. it carries a copyright notice, and again does not credit a particular translator. DES ^(talk) 21:22, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

But of course such translation could have just been made by the Wikipedia editor and not any published translator. I don't think a transliteration is necessary here, and it gets too complicated considering different accents and transcription conventions. --jnothman ^talk 10:26, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New "text of kaddish"

Does this belong here or in WikiSource? I assume the latter, but would like someone to agree. jnothman ^talk 15:48, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

What's wrong with "both"? :-) Tomer^talk 01:13, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm...I don't think the text is quite long enough to send it to wikisource (although I would support adding it to wikisource, I wouldn't support removing it from the article). That said, the fonts you used are...unpleasing...especially the italicized versions... Tomer^TALK 04:44, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

The fonts used were the fonts used by the prior editor of that text. I am not sure what to do about Hebrew fonts when you want the vowels to show correctly. Having Ezra SIL on my computer, I wouldn't say it looks unpleasing as such, though... What do you suggest? Thanks for the feedback. jnothman ^talk 05:22, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I dunno...something sans serif maybe wouldn't look so pixelated. Also, what's the source for the text? I see "vechayim `aleinu ve`al kol yisra'el" everywhere, even "vechayim tovim `aleinu ve`al kol yisra'el", but not "vechayim lanu ul'khol yisra'el". Tomer^talk 01:48, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Appropriate place for such discussion is probably Talk:Kaddish. Still: the sources were essentially found quickly on the internet. I was too tired at the time to do thorough research, but was fed up looking at the ugly page that was there! The lanu, though is an artifact of my inability in deciding how to note that "lanu" follows "v'revach v'hatzzala" (or really "rewah whazzala" when I often hear it), but "ʻalenu" occurs in the Ashkenazi variant and follows "chayyim". It should probably be added as a footnote. As for "tovim", we should probably include that but it will mean splitting line 28 and thus renumbering in the text and in the footnotes. jnothman ^talk 04:32, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, so ya. I think it would probably be sufficient to note the inclusion of "tovim" simply in a footnote, it would be nice if we could track down its origin and distribution... Tomer^talk 04:49, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

No, we can't actually: it would be inconsistent, considering the other uses of [brackets] to refer to minor variations in nusach. If someone can research it, or knows where to, we could have a separate section on nusach variations, or maybe this belongs in a more general Jewish prayers article. jnothman ^talk 04:55, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

btw, lines 29-31 translate as:

and satiety, and salvation, and comfort, and saving (in the sense of "maintaining", I think...IZAK may know for sure)

and health and redemption and pardon and atonement

and plenty and deliverance (or "rescuing")

Hope that helps... Tomer^talk 07:31, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

It does. Thank you. jnothman ^talk 08:44, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Yitgaddel veyitqaddesh vs. Yitgaddal veyitqaddash

Footnote 2 currently says "On line 1, some say Yitgaddel veyitqaddesh rather than Yitgaddal veyitqaddash, putting these words into a Hebrew rather than an Aramaic form." Shouldn't that be "yitgaddeil v'yitqaddeish", and shouldn't it also say "putting these words into an Aramiac rather than Hebrew form"? 15:54, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Nowhere else here is a tsere written as 'ei', so no. And again, no, such a pronunciation is putting the word into a Hebrew form, hitpa'el instead of aramaic itpa'al. jnothman ^talk 13:59, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

According to a big long discussion on mj a few months ago, its original form in some traditions does indeed use the Hebrew form. This was apparently more common before the Sho'a. Tomer^talk 07:56, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Too POV. Rewrite.

The point is that there are several nuschaos for Kaddish. I can't believe no one has mentioned this yet. For another example, the phrase "v'yatzmach purkoney vikoreyv m'shichey" is according to the Ari z"l but nusach Ashkenaz omits it. The Temani (Yemenites) say it, along with even more words. Also, the responsorial customs (where to say amen, whether to continue with yisborech/yisborach or even until shmey d'kudsha b'rich hu) differ widely. Furthermore, to transliterate into Roman script begs some sort of discussion of different havaros (ways to pronounce the Hebrew). This is one of the most varied prayers in Judaism—I would say, even more than the Shmoneh Esrey on a word-for-word basis. As presently written, with occasional brackets around words and "Some people say..." as footnotes, ain't cuttin'. I suggest this article cut out the transliteration, list one Hebrew kaddish with translation (I'm Lubavitch but Ashkenaz is most common), discuss the difference in nusach, and link to a Wikisource article listing the different nuschaos, possibly transliteration in different havaros correspondingly (e.g., ...sh'mai d'kid'shu b'rich hi (Cong.: b'rich hi)...). Steve Shuck 13:59, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

There's no reason a discussion of the variations you metion can't be included right here in this article. Tomer^talk 23:17, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I have just bracketed the words veyitsmach purkanei et cetera due to the same reasons stated above. As a curiosity, in my community there is now a (luckily very light) dispute due to the occasional use of the new chief Rabbi of the Mizrachi form, to which the traditional Italian community traditionally opposed the shorter version, incidentally sponsored by the all-pervading siddur of Rav Disegni z"l, which is the closest thing to a codification of the Minhag Yitalki. I hope Rav Arbib understands my standing...--UbUb 17:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 11 months and Gehinom

On the Purgatory page, someone wrote "Rabbinic literature describes gehinom as a place or state of temporary suffering immediately after death. A belief in the efficacy of prayers for the dead is manifest in the Mourner's Kaddish which is prayed for 11 months after a loved one dies." Here on this page we read, "It is important to note that the Mourners' Kaddish does not mention death at all, but instead praises God. Though the Kaddish is often popularly referred to as the "Jewish Prayer for the Dead," that designation more accurately belongs to the prayer called "El Maleh Rachamim," which specifically prays for the soul of the deceased." Can someone shed some light on this? Jonathan Tweet 14:05, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Leon Wieseltier

Leon Wieseltier wrote Kaddish after his father's death and writes very sympathetically and in a historically highly relevant way about kaddish - its meaning and halachic perspective. Should definitely be included here. JFW | T@lk 20:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unicode

I am a Hebrew text entry newbie (or in this case Aramaic), however, as I was going thru the text today, I a problem.

I believe that the Dagesh character must be added before other vowels -- perhaps since it's more a part of the character? -- such as the Patah in "talmidai." When I copied it into Melell, which is a unicode-savvy editor, the dagesh was outside the letter.

I can't edit this right now. But if someone has the time to go through it ...

David Morgenstern

71.131.179.71 22:45, 25 October 2006 (UTC)