Talk:Ka'iulani

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Contents 1 Move proposals 2 misc 3 POV paragraph 4 Royal consorts and monarchs 5 Overthrow 6 poem

[edit] Move proposals

->Princess Victoria Kaiulani or -> Victoria Kaiulani, Princess of Hawai'i or -> Princess Victoria Kaiulani of Hawai'i

according to Wikipedia´s own rules of naming royalty, this needs to be changed. Antares911 23:49, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose. Unnecessary. Non-European royalty are not under that naming convention. The basic reason why royals in Europe have territorial designations is that first names are so common between countries that country name is the next useful thing for disambiguation. But here Victoria Kaiulani clearly needs no disambiguation. 217.140.193.123 8 July 2005 22:16 (UTC)
• Oppose, for the same reasons listed by the anonymous user above. 青い(Aoi) 8 July 2005 23:38 (UTC)
• Oppose Agree with anonymous user. --Gmosaki 14:24, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] misc

How could Stevenson have memorialized her if he died before she did?

As Victoria Kaiulani was never a reigning monarch of the Kingdom of Hawai'i, I removed the appendage "of Hawaii" from the namespace and article title.

It is entirely appropriate and accurate for the article to be Victoria Kaiulani of Hawaii (see Wiki titles and names) ... she must have her country designation as do other entries utilizing a royal woman's maiden name designation ... she had no other name, royally speaking, than Crown Princess, but since Wiki article titles do not use titles, I would suggest you rename the page "Victoria Kaiulani of Hawaii" ... do similarly with your other Hawaiian royalty pages ... Also, I don't understand the significance of the last sentence in your article. Also I think you should remove reference to her embodying the Aloha Spirit of Hawaii unless this is somehow official and known in Hawaiian history. Otherwise it sounds touchy-feely-weird. Mowens35 22:30, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Removed the "Aloha Spirit" reference. 青い(Aoi) 08:51, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] POV paragraph

A paragraph under "Late Years" said this:

"Doctors say she died from a health problem, native Hawaiians believe that their Princess died of a broken heart. She suffered so many losses in her life (her mother, Theo Davies, David Kalakaua, & her country for example). Her father also said that he thinks maybe his daughter was meant for the time of Hawai`i`s monarchy overthrow. He said that since Hawai`i was gone Ka`iulani should go too. She lives on though in Hawai`i`s Aloha Spirit."

The paragraph is strongly POV so I edited the paragraph to say this:

"Some Native Hawaiians believe that Ka‘iulani died of a broken heart, having suffered many losses in her life (her mother, Theo Davies, David Kalakaua, and her country, among other things). Her father also said that he thought that since Hawai‘i was gone, it was fitting for Ka‘iulani to go as well."

I think even this might be pushing NPOV a little though. I was hesitant to delete the paragraph entirely, however. Any suggestions? 青い(Aoi) 08:51, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

The medical analysis is a bit questionable here. Is this an article or a romance novel?:

"... her childhood friend ... passed away and ... Her health slowly began to deteriorate...

... Ka‘iulani's health worsened when she learned that her half-sister, Annie Cleghorn, had passed away ...

... a warmer climate did not help her health ... Her health continued to deteriorate as she struggled to readjust to the subtropical climate ...

... while on a horse ride ..., she got caught in a storm and shortly came down with a fever ...

... Some Native Hawaiians believe that Ka‘iulani died of a broken heart."

And yet she was "known throughout the world for her ... determination"? Seems more on the delicate side. Sixten8 18:37, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Royal consorts and monarchs

hi there. i´m trying to get a discussion going to change the rules on naming consorts, monarchs, etc.. it´s a bit of mess at the moment. maybe you wanna join in and give your opinion? feel free [1] cheers Antares911 23:50, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, that discussion had been going, where almost everyone has opposed Antares' schemes and propositions. Nothing came out of Antares' (who also has some sockpuppets such as User:at33) suggestions but a huge mess. Meanwhile, Antares had been busy to name articles according to those proposed Antares' rules (and even making cut-paste-moves). There are now a number of articles littered here around WP where Antares has written a full titulary in almost all paragraphs. I have nowhere else seen such bunch of repetitions of "Her Royal Highness the Princess, the Princess of...." and likes. The word sycophancy got to some use in related talks. 217.140.193.123 07:10, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Overthrow

Changed the following sentence: "In 1893, a revolution occurred and the Hawaiian monarchy was overthrown."

The word revolution imples the native population had revolted against the crown and deposed the monarchy. This does not properly characterize the overthrow as I understand it to have occurred. The overthrow is commonly taught to have been accomplished by powerful American businessmen dismayed at the commercial and diplomatic ties between the Hawaiian government and the British monarchy (and possibly their position vis-a-vis competing British business interests). The overthrow was effectuated using American marines from a warship docked at Honolulu harbor who were invited by the commercial interests to depose the queen in order to protect the American's property.

It has always been implied that the claims of the Americans were overblown in order to serve as a pretext to their real goal of annexation by the United States. Whatever the merits of the businessmen's claims of threat to life or livelihood under a queen who sought to increase her monarchal power, I hardly think their action amounts to a "revolution." So to preserve objectivity I deleted that portion. The sentence now reads: "In 1893, the Hawaiian monarchy was overthrown."

For more information on the overthrow and the response of the United States, I would direct readers to the article on Queen Liliuokalani.

[edit] poem

Actually, Stevenson's poem was for Ka'iulani when she was going to England, not for her death. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jim Bart (talk • contribs) 02:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC).