Talk:Jyotiraditya Madhavrao Scindia

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[edit] Hinduism/Hindu politicians

  1. He performed a Hindu ceremony at His coronation [1] as well as the fact he's related to a stalwart BJP politician (Raje). He was therefore "born as a Hindu" which fits the guidelines of the cat. Two and two can be put together. Bakaman Bakatalk 01:10, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
  1. Note the consensus on the CFD which ends in an unconditional keep.Bakaman Bakatalk 21:33, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
  1. Also, per BLP, since religion and politics go hand in hand in India, and he is part of the scindia family of politicians/Maharajas and because of his relations to raje, the category fits.Bakaman Bakatalk 21:33, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
My reply, as elswhere:
  1. Being related to a BJP politician and participating in Hindu ceremonies do not count as self-identification. By that count several prominent critics of Hinduism are Hindu, and so are several self-identified Muslims and Christians.
  2. This is not about the CfD itself, but about the application of the cat.
  3. "Religion and politics" may go hand in hand in India, but I fail to see its application to WP:BLP. He may be part of a royal family, but that is irrelevant as far as WP:BLP goes. The specific parts of WP:BLP are:
  • The subject publicly self-identifies with the belief or preference in question
  • The subject's beliefs or sexual preferences are relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life.
This individual does not satisfy either of these criteria. Hornplease 21:43, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


Reply- You are forgetting his coronation was a Hindu ceremony. I also have seen pictures of A.P.J. Abdul Kalam lighting diyas at the Akshardham, but Abdul Kalam and Christians/Muslims/Atheists going to Hindu temples are irrelevant to this argument. Since there is no verifiable proof he converted to another religion, he still is by law, a Hindu. That should take care of BLP as well, since the laws would categorize him as Hindu. You are forgetting that which family he belongs to makes a difference, the Scindia family of Gwalior, which includes Vasundhara Raje and his own grandma Rajmata Vijayaraje Scindia. His death ceremony was Hindu as well, as was the handing of the pugri. Bakaman Bakatalk 22:12, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


Since you obviously cannot bring anything up but your application of BLP I will be adding the cat.Bakaman Bakatalk 22:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


Sorry. I dont need to bring anything up until you have satisfactorily answered the BLP problem. Which you cant. As you yourself indicate with your Kalam example, participation in ceremonies is not sufficient indication. Also, the traditional religion of the Scindia family is inadmissible. ::Going on about the 'law' is pointless. You are firstly wrong; participation in Hindu ritual is not a legal proof of being Hindu. Having a relative in the BJP is not legal proof of being Hindu. Being a Scindia is not legal proof of being Hindu. For that matter, a lot of people would be classified as Hindu by law who would not self-identify as Hindus. Hindu Undivided Family tax status is a good reason.
And in any case, WP:BLP does not permit the category to be here, in the absence of cited information about self identification. What part of that do you not understand? Removing the category until you provide information about self-identification. Hornplease 08:40, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
  1. "The subject publicly self-identifies with the belief or preference in question" - His Hindu coronation shows he self identifies with his religion/customs.Bakaman Bakatalk 17:09, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
  2. "The subject's beliefs or sexual preferences are relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life" - Religion (in the land of Uma Bharti and Arjun Singh) is quite relevant for the politiians in MP.Bakaman Bakatalk 17:09, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
APJ Abdul Kalam, Manmohan Singh, etc. are not Maharajas and they wouldn't be permitted to have a Hindu coronation, therefore his coronation is a unique expression of the traditions of his clan/caste and in a wider scope the Kshatriya traditions of Hinduism. Bakaman Bakatalk 17:33, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


Wrong, wrong, wrong.
  1. A coronation is a public ritual, not a private one. The religion of the public ritual, is immaterial, as that has historical significance, and not personal signficance. He did not choose to have a Hindu coronation. You need to cite evidence that he states his preference.
  2. Just because he happens to be from the same state as politicians for whom religion is important does not mean that religion is crucial to his notability. On the contrary, his family is crucial to his notability.
"Would not be permitted to have a Hindu coronation"? Who would stop them? How do we know that Scindia isnt an atheist? The standards of WP are rigorous about this sort of thing; we need a statement, we need citations. Participating in a ritual is not enough. Hornplease 22:13, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Why not find proof he converted? Since you obviously think every hindu politician is an atheist why not find a ref saying he converted? Oh wait, he didnt. Since you obviously go out of context, since when did Advani say he was a Hindu, or Shaukat Aziz say he was a Muslim, or even that Sayyid Muhammad bin Sayyid Hasan ar-Rida al-Mahdi as-Sanussi (royal family of Libya) is Muslim. Well since you brought up his family, the Scindia family are documented Hindus as Vijayaraje scindia wrote in her own book [2]. Madhavrao did the proper 'Hindu ceremonies for his fathers death [3]. Since you obviously cant prove that Jyotiradtiya is of any other religion, the cat stays. I guess that must be a loss to Sonia Gandhi.Bakaman Bakatalk 01:05, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I dont have to prove that JS is of another religion. You have to demonstrate that he has self-identified as Hindu. Participation in a public ritual does not count. That's it. Nothing else matters. It's WP policy. Live with it. And once again, keep your comments civil, and mature. Hornplease 01:29, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Note that I dont think every Hindu politician is an atheist. I dont even think that being an atheist disqualifies you from being a Hindu. Consider Bal Thackeray, who self-identifies both as an atheist and a Hindu. I just want self-identification and citation. Hornplease 01:33, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Well now that we have dropped into the realm of "I want", I guess that I really dont care what you want. AFAIC I have provided enough proof to cement his Hinduness (Hindutva - even though he's a congressvadi). Now that I've noticed a "not good enough for me" and "live with it" pattern from your uninsightful and obstinate comments, I dont feel the need to explain anything to you.Bakaman Bakatalk 03:39, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I want self-identification and citation because that's WP policy. You have not provided enough proof. I repeat:I dont have to prove that JS is of another religion. You have to demonstrate that he has self-identified as Hindu. Participation in a public ritual does not count. It's WP policy. There's no other alternative here. In future, find citations for self-identification, as required by WP:BLP, before putting the category in, otherwise explanations will be owed. Oh, and avoid words like 'uninsightful' and 'obstinate'. Makes you appear churlish, which I am sure is an impression you do not wish to leave. Hornplease 07:09, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

After checking Google searches and his website I'm going to have to say that I don't think it is a significant enough factor in this case. The support seems to rely mostly on his relatives or public ceremonies which simply indicate he is born of it. I think slightly more is needed to meet WP policy. Bakaman is likely going to be angry with this, but I believe in this category and as I recall I supported it. Also I am not intending to enter a fight on this and I will erase any posts, from either of you, on my talk page if I deem them irate or offensive. I hope this is clear. You two asked for my opinion, I gave it, and I hope this ends my involvement.--T. Anthony 08:11, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

T. Anthony agrees he was born a Hindu, which makes him eligible for the scope of the cat. His participation in Hindu ceremonies (including shaving his head at his fathers death, his own coronation, etc.) merely fills the self-identification. You obviously have no idea what "proof" is, you're merely repeating the same nonsense over and over again and saying "wrong, wrong, wrong". AFAIC I have provided enough background info to make him eleigible for the cat, and to get BLP out of the way.Bakaman Bakatalk 15:42, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
You are misconstruing what I said, but in any event I'm done with this.--T. Anthony 16:01, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
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