Talk:Justinian I

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Contents 1 old talk 2 old talk 3 old talk 4 Justin I 5 POV 6 Justinian, Justinianus, Ιουστινιανός 7 Fact check 8 Caričin Grad 9 Illyrium? 10 Good information on Justinian 11 "The Great" 12 the article is biased 13 The Slav connection 14 Burial? 15 Revised Military activities 16 Succession and child(ren) 17 Justian on Suppression of Homosexuality

[edit] old talk

Contemporary historians tell us that Justinian dominated his uncle.

I know Procopius says this. Do any others?

dunno. Maybe not. I'm not a Byzantinist. I knew that Procopius did, but I was hedging. --MichaelTinkler

Ok. It's just that not everything Procopius says can be taken at face value, notably the secret histories, as he obviously had a personal grudge against the family.

Indeed. The phrase 'contemporary historians' makes a nice introductory statement for later qualification, I thought. Of course, Procopius *might* be right and he might have been possessed by a demon. --MichaelTinkler.

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I think it's nonsense. Justin was smart enough to scheme his way into the throne when he was about 83 years old, I can't see him then being kicked around by his nephew. Procopius didn't like Justin, Justinian or anything about them, and I take his comments about Justin as just one more expression of that.

Justinian wasn't even named as Justin's successor until Justin was in the last year of his life, and Justin's policies were nothing like his nephew's. He may have relied on Justinian's skills a great deal, but I'm convinced Justin was the real emperor until he died. John

Well, those same contemporary historians would contend that Justinian was also responsible for putting his uncle on the throne in the first place. G. P. Baker in *Justinian* (1931) holds that Justinian did manipulate much of his uncle's reign.

Also to be specified: the (mere) "university" Justinian closed in Athens was Plato's Academy.

[edit] old talk

Justinian is mainly remembered for his judicial revolution which organised Roman law in a form and organic scheme that is still in use today and remains more or less unaltered in some countries today (apart from obvious adaptations).

Is this really true? I know this is the most important thing Justinian did, but I would expect people to remember him more for the reconquest of the west, since it's more dramatic, shows up on maps, and is a necessary part of the narrative of events in Italy.

[edit] old talk

No mention of the Plague of Justinian? I would think that it had major lasting effects on the Eastern Empire, and we do know that Justinian made policies to deal with it. Sadly, I know not to where my copy of Charles Panati's Extraordinary Endings of Practically Everything and Everybody has disappeared; it treats the plague extensively.

Well...that's probably not the best source to use for the plague. But we do have a Plague of Justinian article, I thought it was linked from here. Adam Bishop 18:52, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Justin I

Sorry, saw "Uncle Justin" and thought it was Dukes of Hazzard or somthing. Stbalbach 17:07, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] POV

Sorry, I meant to put in the history comment of my recent edit to the picture caption that I was removing POV that the mosaic is Byzantine in nature. I personally agree with a very convincing Discovery Channel documentary called "Barbarians" that put forward that the figure in the mosaic looks exactly the same as coins depicting Theodoric, and the label "IVSTINIAN" was added later. I haven't read the whole article, but I would guess from this that it's still filled with POV. elvenscout742 18:55, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I would suggest we find a more authoritative source for that than some Discovery Channel documentary. What was the basis of their claim? They thought little images on coins kind of maybe sort of looked like a really big mosaic image? And why is it POV to suggest the mosaics are Byzantine, even if they do depict Theodosius? What style would he have been using, if not Roman/Byzantine? Adam Bishop 01:28, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, I didn't exactly represent it well. We know that Roman historians were incredibly biased against "barbarians", and so would try to exterminate any trace of civilized Gothic culture if they found it. The strange disembodied hands on some mosaics, as well as the fact that the crown, the "IVSTINIAN" label and anything else that would make them explicitly Byzantine were added later, as well as explicit Gothic elements removed. I am not saying it's POV to say that they may have been Byzantine, but that reference was naively assuming that they were Byzantine. I merely said that some historians contend that it depicts Theodoric, and removed the word "Byzantine" from the label, as it explicitly supported the POV that those historians are wrong. elvenscout742 09:32, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and I was not talking about Theodosius I. I was talking about Theodoric the Great (who, I might add, was also an Arian Christian, rather than a Roman Catholic ... he certainly shouldn't be allowed get away with that >: ( ). elvenscout742 09:35, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Here is a larger pic commons:Justinian_mosaik_ravenna.jpg. There is actually no label saying "IVSTINIAN". But I've never heard anyone claim that it was someone else. Did the documentaty say who the woman on the other wall could be? commons:Image:Theodora mosaik ravenna.jpg. -- Jniemenmaa 12:52, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

The only person labelled in the San Vitale imperial mosaics is Maximianus, the Archbishop of Ravenna who was the patron of the mosaic work. As he was Catholic, he'd hardly be associated with the Arian Theoderic. Furthermore, if there was a label attached to the emperor, it should read IVSTINIANVS, not the Anglicised version presented above. The argument recalled by Elvenscout742 seems to be built on unproven possibilities and lacks any evidence. I've never read that these mosaics are anything other than Justinian and Theodora, which is the overwhelming scholarly consensus. It would be more NPOV to report any doubts in a paragraph on the San Vitale page rather than doctoring image captions in this article. Reporting scholarly consensus (in what is meant to be an encyclopedia, not a forum for debating historical theory and fact) is hardly POV.--Iacobus 01:17, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Justinian, Justinianus, Ιουστινιανός

Just a small note. The different names in the introduction are quite chaotic:

• Flavius Petrus Sabbatius Iustinianus is the Latin full name,
• Μέγας Ιουστινιανός means Justinian the Great, cf. Alexander the Great = Megas Alexandros,
• Justinian is a modern/modernised version.

The Latin version of Justinian is Iustinianus, the Greek one ist Ιουστινιανός/Justinianos.

I agree.--BlaiseMuhaddib 15:33, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fact check

Fact check

Justinian Article: Justinian would have, in earlier times, been unable to marry her because of her class, but his uncle Emperor Justin I had passed a law allowing intermarriage between social classes.

Theodora article: She convinced Justinian to change the law that forbade noblemen to marry lower class women (like herself).

Justinian did not change that particular law. His uncle Justin also married a woman of disputable origin. His wife Euphemia was born a slave. See: Euphemia. This was before even rising to the throne. The problem was that Theodora was a former actress which at the time made her a subject to laws denying members of this class many rights common to other citizens. User:Dimadick

Justinian article: He is also known as "The last Roman Emperor" [citation needed]"

Known by whom? Although he is sometimes referred to in more or less those words, I'm not sure if it really deserves being mentioned here, especially as a direct quote. However, I do remember having read him being called "the last of the Roman Caesars" or something like that. Maybe Gibbon, or just some popular history book? Iblardi 19:39, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The article says:

"Justinian viewed himself as the new Constantine. He believed in a Mediterranean-wide Christian order politically, religiously and economically, united and ruled from Constantinople under a single Christian emperor. To this end he directed his great wars and his colossal activity in reconquering the western provinces from the Germanic tribes."

A source reference would be in place here. Of course, as a Christian Roman Emperor, he was supposed to be the political head of the Christian world, but how much is really known about Justinian's motivations? Iblardi 22:11, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Caričin Grad

I have put Caričin Grad as Justinian's birth place according to: The Cambridge Companion to the Age of Justinian, Edited by Michael Maas, Cambridge University Press 2005, p. 355 (with figure of Justiniana Prima = Caričin Grad on p. 356). ClaudiusGothicus 02:05, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok I reverted your edit before seeing this, I will restore it, and add the source. --- Stbalbach 14:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Illyrium?

This was just added:

Justinian was a Latinized [[Macedonia (region)|Macedonian]] peasant <ref> William George DeBurgh, 1953, “The Legacy of the Ancient World” - Penguin Books, p.421 ''Justinian'' </ref>

Which replaced/deleted text that said he was born in the Illyricum Province. I had always read the Justinian was an Illyrian. Is this not true? Was there a Macedonian Roman provence? -- Stbalbach 14:55, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree with the wording, too. You can't say Justinian himself was a Latinized person, his whole family just came from a Latin-speaking region. Iblardi 17:53, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good information on Justinian

Wouldn't it be a good idea to use this site: http://www.roman-emperors.org/ as a source of information on Justinian and other Roman emperors? (http://www.roman-emperors.org/justinia.htm for Justinian) It looks thorough and reliable and has lots of primary and secondary sources listed.Iblardi 17:53, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "The Great"

Hi, I was just wondering if there should not be a reference to the epithet often used with Justinian, "the Great". Whether or not this is a modern tag (I'm not really sure), it's certainly a relevant and popular identifier (it's the name by which I knew Justinian as a child). The last article edit that described "the Great" as vandalism is a bit of a stretch, particularly without an explanation. Also, new Wikipedians are just going to keep adding the epithet whenever they see it is not in the article. Just a thought. Rob Lindsey 20:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Unless its how the person is most commonly known as it's not part of the article title, and thus not in bold text. I suppose a case could be made that he is most commonly known as "the Great", but I think it would be controversial (not if he was "great" or not, but that "great" is most commonly attached to his name). I can say personally that in my studies from recent secondary sources he was not called "the great", but I understand there is a line of tradition that has done so. -- Stbalbach 13:46, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the article is biased

The article is biased against the Emperor, with words like "despotic" all over the body of the text.

See despotism. I believe this is being used in the non-pejorative sense? -- Stbalbach 00:52, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Slav connection

To Stbalbach and others, I removed a comment on Justinian being "by no means" of Slav origin, because it seemed to me irrelevant for an encyclopedic article. First of all, it looks rather polemical to put it that strongly, but that may be a matter of style. But more importantly, why so much attention for a "romantic tradition" that doesn't seem to be very wide-spread at all? I myself have never heard of it, and though I'm by no means a specialist, I don't consider myself completely uninformed. The Slavs entered the Balkans in any great numbers some time after 500 anyway, so there is no obvious reason to think Justinian was a Slav. (Personally I don't really care about his ethnicity.) Why state the obvious? This would be like saying "Alexander was not of Persian descent at all" in an article on Alexander the Great because there are some Persian legends that claim he was. That was my motivation. With regards, Iblardi 20:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe it is notable enough to include. It is historiography and every history article on Wikipedia should have more of it. In this particular case, there is a lot of racist and nationalistic scholarship out there that needs to be corrected and Wikipedia does a pretty good job at that. I suspect the reason you never heard of it is your not exposed to that kind of scholarship, which is a good thing, but take a look at Huns for example (origins section) and the article talk page to see how various countries nationalistic and/or racists agendas often make claims on history. Or Goths. Or Ancient Egyptians. etc.. -- Stbalbach 15:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, maybe it could be included in the form of a footnote then. I think some people's nationalistic claims don't deserve so prominent a place in an article that is supposed to merely reflect the scientific consensus. When I look up 'Justinian' in any encyclopedia, I find no references to this 'discussion'. If anything, it should be put in a separate section "Romantic traditions on Justinian's ethnicity" or something like that, or even a separate article on racist/nationalistic 'scholarship', linking to the encyclopedical pages. Iblardi 15:44, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Nah it's fine and normal to deal with historiography issues this way in history articles. -- Stbalbach 16:35, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

As long as it reflects serious historiography issues, not some uninformed or politically-inspired opinion. Why is this opinion so important that it should be dealt with so explicitly in an otherwise very general section? We could refer to every pseudo-scientific 19th-century tradition, however marginal, in every article, stating those theories are absolutely wrong. For instance, in an article about the Solar system, would you expect to find a comment like "the Sun does not evolve around the Earth, but the Earth actually evolves around the Sun" otherwise than in a separate section on "historical misconceptions" or the like? I still think a case can be made for mentioning it, but not here. The fact that he was born in the Balkans before the Slavs entered should speak for itself. Iblardi 17:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Burial?

Hi, is the place of J and Theodora's burial still existant? Are their bodies still where they were placed all that time ago? Or did something bad happen? This isn't discussed anywhere and I can't find any information on findagrave.com. Thanks! PatrickJ83 18:37, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Most Byzantine emperors were buried in the Church of the Holy Apostles, which was demolished by the Ottomans after 1453. Iblardi 20:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Well that's depressing - what happened to the bodies? Have their ever been archeo. expeditions - or were the bodies moved? PatrickJ83 00:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revised Military activities

I have made some modifications in the section "Military activities". I'll give some examples why I thought the old version was inadequate.

A) In general:

- Too little information on the Persian wars as compared to the West.

- Too much mentioning of Belisarius and too much written from his POV. He has an article of his own.

B) On sentence level:

- "Like his Roman predecessors and Byzantine successors" - This implies Justinian is the one 'last Roman emperor'. No general agreement on that.

- "However, his primary military ambitions focused on the western Mediterranean Sea" - An assumption is made about J’s ambitions (although admittedly a plausible one). Why not let the facts speak for themselves?

- "as a reward after successfully putting down the Nika riots" - How do we know?

I expanded the text in some places and cut it short in others and have, in general, tried to make it more balanced. Iblardi 21:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Succession and child(ren)

In an article on an emperor or king one normally expects to find some mention of any children and of the matter of succession. I wonder if this could be added? Norvo 15:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Fixed it in the 'Life' section. The whole article is in need of serious revision anyway. Iblardi 17:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Justian on Suppression of Homosexuality

While the article covers the suppression of Hellenism, missing is the criminalisation of homosexual acts, apparently based on the grounds that 'they cause earthquakes'. A reference is made in the Wiki article on pederasty, as practised by Classical and Ancient Greece.[1]

I've only a secondary source: Gore Vidal, United States, Abacus, 1993, pp 531, 922-23,1051.

As sexual politics are fundamental to understanding a culture and the individuals within it, I think it's worth a mention. If no one can find a better source, I'll put it in myself. --TresRoque 12:51, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd rather see a better source than Vidal who is a great 20th C American playwright, author, statesman etc.. (and who is openly homosexual) -- something from a neutral mainstream historical source would be great. -- Stbalbach 14:58, 12 December 2006 (UTC)