Talk:Judo
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[edit] Gentle Way
In The Complete Kano Jiu-jitsu (Judo) by H. Irving Hancock and Katsukuma Higashy, 1905 (yes, over 100 years ago now), Katsukuma Higashi, writes in his preface of the book, "Jiu-jitsu, or jiudo, is in Japan the art of the gentleman." In The Canon Of Judo, Kyuzo Mifune states in the introduction that "...when explaining Judo that gentleness controls toughness." I don't know japanese, but I've always seen Judo literally translated as the Gentle Way. --Pereza 15:50, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Questions
Under Judo's theory of combat the claim is made that Strikes (i.e. punches, kicks etc) are not allowed due to their certainty of injury, but judoka are supposed to 'take them into consideration' while training by, for example, not fighting in a bent-over position for long, since this position is vulnerable to knee-strikes and others. This is highly questionable, no mention is made of the postures of judo, such as shizen-hontai, or the essentials of a technique, such as hen-nou, which are critical to the question why eg. jigo-hontai is not applied for long. This has little to do with the current point made.
response: Then read this quote from the founder of Judo please:
p.142 of "Kodokan Judo" by Jigoro Kano:
"Always keep in mind that randori is training in the art of attack and defense. In a martial art, it is essential to train the body to move freely and agilely to deal with punching and kicking attacks and to nurture the ability to react quickly and skillfully. The immediate goal is to win. Never admit defeat."
In the next paragraph, he attacks the trend of fighting in bent-over postures. I think the logic is clear.
Secondly, it is said under pins that, Pins are considered important since in a real fight the person on top who has control of the person beneath can hit him with knees, forearms, the head and so on. Generally this is correct, however, this is not the position of the term in judo. Hold-downs, together with strangling and joint techniques, complement each other, and together they form the basis of techniques for adapting and control, which are at the core of judo's philosophy. The reference to a so-called "real fight" is inappropriate, and odd, pinns form a technical basis of katame-waza.
Response: And what is the purpose of 'control' in a real fight? Either to maintain the pin until help arrives, to transition into a submission move, or to hit the opponent. The idea that it is to hit the opponent comes from Kashiwazaki through my coach Ron Angus (10 times Master Champion, Olympic coach etc etc) who told me this and who edited the article before I posted it.
Joccis 16:27, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
more response: Also consider the kime-no-kata, where you have a couple of pins followed immediately by strikes (to the solar plexus and groin, in particular).
[edit] Zen Judo
If a link to them is placed should some explanation be given? I know nothing about them bar what I've read tonight but their websites sugests they are substantially different from olympic judo.
Randori rules from http://gordonlawson.tripod.com/id13.html "1. During Randori, movement should be relaxed, and techniques applied without strength
2. One must not move against blocks applied during Randori
3. During Randori, the senior grade should permit the junior grade reasonable opportunity to apply techniques and must exercise care and control when throwing.
4. No Half sacrifices to be applied to white belts
5. No full sacrifices to be applied to any grade below green belt.
6. Green belts and above may be thrown over the body, providing this is mutually acceptable.
7. White belts must not be lifted during Randori, they should be thrown by the application of blocks only."
From http://www.zenjudo.co.uk/zenjudo/main_site/rules_history/zen_hist.htm " As Judo spread throughout the West it slowly gained the form of a sport. Its inclusion in the 1964 Olympic Games and popularity in World and Regional Games led to an emphasis on its physical aspects, sometimes at the expense of its intellectual, moral and spiritual underpinnings. In an effort to preserve the philosophical and spiritual aspects of Dr.Kano's art Zen Judo was created in England in 1974. ............... Zen Judo dojos do not participate in tournaments or competitions. As a Judo ryu it is devoted to technique, skill, and merit rather than the athletic ability."
I for one would like to know more.
[edit] RE: Zen Judo
I'm glad you're interested in Zen Judo, i'm going to try to build an article on it sometime in the next couple of weeks. OB-rad 19:10, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Romaji
IMHO some romaji of technics like goshi waza are written incorrectly. Or are they proper names of IAJ? --Aphaea
Do you know where to obtain an official English-Japanese Judo glossary? By using Yahoo! Japan's dictionary function, I find this Japanese definition of goshi waza:
こし‐わざ 【腰技】 柔道の投げ技で、主に腰を働かせて投げ倒す技の総称。浮き腰・大腰・腰車・釣り込み腰・払い腰・釣り腰・はね腰・移り腰・後ろ腰の九種。
こ(ko)し(shi)‐わ(wa)ざ(za)【腰技】 柔道の投げ技で、 A kind of throwing techniques of Judo, 主に腰を働かせて投げ倒す技の総称。 primarily it's the collective name of ... . 浮き腰・大腰・腰車・釣り込み腰・払い腰・釣り腰・はね腰・移り腰・後ろ腰の九種。 (which includes) ..... (9 techniques).
Sorry, if I made any mistake, please correct me. THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!
-- Toytoy 15:40, Jul 23, 2004 (UTC)
I suggest using the spellings from the "Kodokan Judo" book for consistency, I am sure most Judoka should have a copy. --Lancew 09:38, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] List of techniques
Hmmm is there a particular reason you used regular HTML? Man that was one long list! :P -- EmperorBMA|話す 11:38, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I think the list of judo techniques is great, but would it be better placed on it's own page, like List of judo techniques? It seems unweildy sitting in the middle of this more general article. --Aesopian 19:48, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Image of Kosei Inoue
The image of Kosei Inoue is now available also via Wikimedia Commons. In the article the picture could be inserted now with [[Image:Judo-KoseiInoue Uchi-mata.jpg]] and deleted here on the English servers. --(commons:User:Chrkl) 62.180.24.104 13:07, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Kata guruma the same as fireman's carry?
kata guruma = fireman's carry? kata =practice fight vs many oppenents, guruma = throw. am i right/wrong/indifferent?
Kata = shoulder Guruma = wheel
A word transliterated into English as "kata" is also used in other martial arts to mean ritualised training without opponents, I believe, but I don't know if there's any connection. "Guruma/Wheel" usually signifies a throw involving rolling the opponent's body across some part of your own. Kata guruma is indeed very similar to a fireman's carry.
See http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/kataguruma.htm
Donald Ian Rankin 14:27, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure they are the same thing. --Aesopian 14:24, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
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- Kata can mean either "formalized practice", or "shoulder", or even other things ... in Japanese writing the difference would be easy to tell from use of different kanji characters. One big reason why Japanese has continued the use of Chinese characters is that it contains so many homophonous terms that a text written only in kana would be very hard to understand... the ideograms do facilitate written communication, even thou kana are still necessary for grammatical particles and other uses. --Svartalf 19:18, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Kata-guruma translates into shoulder wheel, reference The Canon of Judo, Kyuzo Mifune, 1 ed. 2004. However, fireman's carry is a very modern term, and usually refering to the more competitive version of kata-guruma, performed as a sutemi-waza (sacrifice throw). However, by Kodokan standards they are not the same, and some international standards should be used here. Joccis 15:42, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] ===
The fireman's carry in wrestling is generally performed from a kneeling posture, and this indeed corresponds to one variation of "drop" kata guruma. In Judo there are several ways of performing kata guruma, involving loading one's opponent across the shoulders, and then "unloading" in various directions - sideways, backwards - or even somersaulting onto the opponent.
The word "kata" means "shoulder". This is a homonym of the word "kata" meaning "mould/form/model", which appears frequently in martial arts, as in "He performed a Karate (or Judo!) kata." In Japanese the word is not identified with the sound, but with the character (kanji), and to the Japanese mind, kata/shoulder and kata/form are different words, since the characters are different.
The word "guruma" means wheel and is also the Japanes word for car. (In North American English, we drive our "wheels".)
[James D. Currie, January 26, 2006.]
[edit] Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art add yourself!
Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art
[edit] Yudo: Korean Judo
Yudo is the proper Korean pronunciation of Judo. Here are a a few of the throws in Korean. English - Korean - Japanese// shoulder throw - obo chigi - seionage // body drop - bit dangyo chigi - tai otoshi // hip sweeping - hori horigi - harai goshi // shoulder wheel - ukerome chigi - kata guruma // scarf hold - kyutnorugi - hon kesa gatame // 4 corner hold - witnoragi - kami shiho gatame // Yudo has one throw that judo does not, it's called durome chigi, it means lift & drop. It's a throw taken from ssireum(Korean wrestling). A Korean won the 1984 Olympics with this throw. Donated by Jason White of Iron Dragon Martial Arts.
[edit] Remove an external link?
Perhaps the external link leading to "Dutch page Budo sports in Hoogeveen" should be removed, as this link leads to the website of a dutch judo club. It appears to be just one of many clubs in the Netherlands, and apart from advertising there's nothing there that will be especially helpful (unless you happen to live nearby and are looking for a place to practice judo). The site is only in dutch, not in english, which further decreases its value to Wikipedia. I'm rather new to Wiki and so far I've only corrected some minor spelling errors. Could someone please give me some feedback, as I'm still a bit reluctant to removing somebody's contribution? Thanks in advance! ^^ 81.69.214.8 10:35, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
UPDATE: I went ahead and removed the link.
[edit] Photo
Interesting photo - maybe the caption should be "judoka gives his opponent a thwack in the goolies".
Actually, the caption should say " A judoka preforms a perfect example of a competition o oichi gari, as it would NOT result in groundwork (But rather an ipon score). I think it would be best to show some actual groundwork (ne-waza) with that caption, rather than a throw. --124.187.49.98 21:27, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Marial arts category for Wikipedians
A new category for those interested in martial arts has been created at Category:Wikipedians_interested_in_martial_arts. To add yourself, simply copy the following code to the bottom of your own user page:
- [[Category:Wikipedians interested in martial arts|{{subst:PAGENAME}}]]
Shawnc 11:27, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Separate Article for Techniques?
Inspired by grappling hold I have created a new article judo techniques. - Rorybowman
[edit] Photo: 'formalism and strict conduct ... traditional judo '
Hey, you can't write anything about traditional judo and put a guy with a blue gi! For instance, you can't do a kata competition with a blue gi (in Canada, at least) because it's not traditional, and kata is traditional judo. It would be much better to put a picture of a guy with a white gi, at least with this caption.
[edit] Vandalism? Nationalism?
Someone changed most (all?) mentions of "Japan" to "Korea" ("Japanese" to "Korean" etc.) I'm reverting now because it's obviously wrong: "Judo (Korean: 柔道, jūdō; "gentle way") is a martial art..." That's kanji, not hangul. Sneaky, though. Jules 23:57, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Agreed - I'm led to believe that a blue gi was traditionally resevred for very high graded players and was not allowed in any form of competition.
[edit] Edited the Joint locks Section:
1. The notion that leg locks etc. are too dangerous is POV. BJJ and SAMBO disagree, hence saying that it was 'discovered' that these techniques are too dangerous isn't right.
2. All joint locks that I'm aware of can cause breakage or hyperextension of a joint, if the one applying the lock wanted this. The article seemed to imply that this is just an incidental aspect specific to joint locks which attack the elbow.
3. Maim is not the right term to use here, as it tends to imply permanent injury. This is certainly possible with joint locks, but not necessary.
I think the whole techniques section is a problem (there's two sections, for one thing) but maybe someone else wants to take the lead on that. Blowfish 22:37, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
1) POV is irrelevent here. International regulators decided that leg locks are banned. Its Ju-Do's position and they discovered the techniques led to more injuries, so that word is appropriate too. BJJ and SAMBO simply don't care as much for the well being of competitors which is their position.
[edit] Some Mistakes
I Have been doing judo for about six years now, and I am a referee. I noticed several mistakes (Mostly Spelling, but some more blaitant) at first glance. Im doing my best to correct the minor things (Ie, changing coca to Koka, Uko to Yuko and wazari to waza-ari). Also, as a referee I noticed that the requirements for certain scores are inaccurate and grossly simplified. (Ie, a waza-ari score requires more than just being 66% on your back, however im not going to change this, because at the moment, i dont have time to provide the appropriate sources.)
also "Chokes/strangulations are Judo's deadliest techniques. They enable the one applying the choke to force the adversary into unconsciousness and even death (though only two people have died while doing judo since 1882)[citation needed]. The differences between a choke and a strangle is that a choke cuts off the blood supply to the brain via the sides of the neck, and a strangle blocks the airway from the front of the neck. In competition, the judoka wins the round if the opponent submits and/or fails to get out of the hold in 25 seconds. A properly applied judo choke can knock an opponent unconscious in 3 seconds." - I beleive that is the wrong way around, where a choke is across the windpipe, and a strangle is cutting off the corroted artery. As a little note...I have been srangled into near unconsciousness in under a second. Also, as a new Wikipedian, im not 100% sure, but wouldnt "Chokes/strangulations are Judo's deadliest techniques" be a POV? --203.87.71.109 11:14, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
oh and another thing...there is no "Normal" Footsweeps, there are about 4 or five regularily used. and tehre are alot more than 2 main competition hold downs
[edit] "Judo is the successor to jujutsu..."?
Is Judo really the "successor" to Jujutsu? In my mind that implies that Jujutsu is no longer active and that the "crown" has passed to Judo. I'm fairly sure this is not the case today. Any comments? 81.216.27.2 05:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
No its not, judo is the SPORT that was developed by Dr Kano, whereas Jujitsu is more of a self defence thing. --203.87.71.109 05:46, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- I believe so too, I'll go ahead and change it.81.216.27.2 07:31, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Good Article followed by Featured Article status
This article is so close to Featured Article status one can almost taste it. The one thing holding it back from Good article status are sources and citations (please take a look at the Sumo for examples). I also think that the People and External Links section needs to be cut down significantly, the Aikido article has a nice way of doing this. Finally a quick check of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Martial Arts and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles) might also help with some minor improvment.Peter Rehse 05:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] School links
The external links section seems to have a lot of links to individual schools, are all these links really relevant? or can it be reduced to more notable ones, i.e. ones that regularly produce Olympic competitors or have there own article --Nate1481 09:43, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
- External links should contain real information about judo. Almost all of these links are just about particular dojos. In my opinion they should all be deleted or at least moved to a separate article list of judo schools. The same goes for all the links to judokas home pages. Eubulide 11:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
- lists like that are normally lists of wiki articles i'm going 2 clean it up based on Wikipedia:External links --Nate1481 12:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
- By the policy Wikipedia:Embedded list (read the very first paragraph), it is clear that these lists should not be in the article. They may be transformed into stand-alone lists, but even that doesn't seem to conform to Wikipedia standard. I just think that these lists don't give any encyclopedic information. I wait for replays; if none come, I will just delete the lists. Eubulide 17:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
