Talk:Judicial astrology

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This article makes all kinds of claims that need sources. Some of them are likely to be unknown to or opposed by many people outside of astrology. These claims include:

  • astrology gave birth to the sciences of astronomy , biology, botany, chemistry, medicine, cosmology, and physics, among other applied sciences. (I toned that one down a bit)
  • Its practicioners invented the tools of algebra, geometry, and trigonometry used in mathematics.
  • Theology formed out of judicial and natural astrology (needs source and explanation)
  • many world religions continue to be heavily influenced by the ancient texts and astrological symbols in the major world religions of Buddhist,Christian, Islamic, Jewish, and Hindu cultures, among others. (needs explanation; it is not obvious in what regards each religion is heavily influenced by astrology)

Also, this article is lacking an explanation of who or what the "classicists" are. Algae 12:12, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Names removed from "Judicial astrologers of note"

Also, I fixed several links. Most notably, William Lily redirects to William Lilye, an English classical grammarian and scholar – not an astrologer, needless to say. When making links, please make sure they point to the article you think it should. Also, the degree to which some of the remaining people are known to have been involved with astrology varies quite a bit (e.g. Hipparchus), so I wrote a leading sentence to indicate that. Algae 20:30, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problems

I can accept the sources provided for anything astrology, but if you make statements about the history of science or religions, it is quite essential to quote authorities in these areas, not astrology. Of course they would claim to have invented everything, now wouldn't they?

I note that the term "classicist" has yet to be explained.

And the section on skeptical treatment is now very one-sided again. "Astrologers maintain that detractors who have not practiced, nor studied scientific astrology cannot state anything on astrology until they study and practice scientific astrology themselves." is wrong. Astrologers make specific claims about their ability to predict future events. Skeptics need neither study nor practise astrology to judge the validity of said predictions. You don't need to be meteorologist to judge whether the weather forecast works. Stands to reason. Algae 20:49, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Algae, these are your POV. The article is sourced. Suggest you also source your materials before making changes. Thanks.Theo 04:40, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
You are wrong. You have an obvious agenda. You care about having many names on this list. I, on the other hand, don't care if Isaac Newton, Abraham or even Albert Einstein were astrologers, and if they were, I appreciate your adding them here. What I care about is that what is written in WP is actually a documented fact. And I'm afraid in the eyes of most editors your sources are no good to support sweeping claims for areas outside astrology. – And once again, I note that you adressed none of the specific issues and questions I raised, other than claiming that I have a POV issue. Algae 09:10, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revert

You do realize that with this revert, you re-introduced the formating errors, the typos, and the broken links that you created and I fixed for you? Please try and work more carefully, this is supposed to be an encyclopedia and not a sketchbook. Algae 08:55, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Good work Algae, this article needs a clean-up: NPOV, Manual of Style, etc. Alexander 007 09:07, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Undue weight. Your astrology books may claim that Theology developed from Judicial astrology, but that is not in any way an accepted view in general scholarship.Alexander 007 09:21, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

See also:Wikipedia:Manual of Style. Alexander 007 09:21, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Suggest you read them yourself before claiming that they are incorrect. You cite "skeptical treatment" POV yourself without citing sources, but assume the burden of proof is a one-way street. I disagree with this view. General scholarship works BOTH ways - and does not assume that because you hold a skpetical view that therefore your POV is not to be sourced as well. Moreover, this article is just getting started, so if you have knowledge to the contrary - then, by all means add them - but cite your sources. Thanks.Theo 09:28, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I will get more sources. For now, see Ancient Greek religion#Theology, which is referenced (see reference section, Athenian religion, etc.), and see Jewish philosophy. You are reverting to a version that is evidently false. The different theologies of the world developed in different ways from different beginnings, and "judicial astrology" as the source of Theology is claimed by various astrologers. Alexander 007 09:31, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

That is fine. I have no problem with that as long as it fits into Wikipedia NPOV, and is not stated from your POV in an attempt to prove "otherwise" - since this is not the stage for that. In reverting a version that you consider "false" that statement is from your POV, and considering that nearly all theologies, or reglions of the world practice astrology and have the images of the zodiac in their reglious buildings, texts, etc., I would suggest you first read about what the cultures of the Hebrews, Arabs, Greeks, Christians, etc., believed about astrology in relation to their religious practices before entering POV into the article. Astrology, as you will find, was central to all these religions, and even the Greeks based their cultures on the zodiac: see the Hellenestic era. I am quite versed in this area, and welcome NPOV entries that are well-written, researched, and edited. Thanks.Theo 09:52, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome. I am assuming good faith on your part and not a blatant astrological agenda. But there are numerous hypotheses concerning the development of the different theologies in the ancient world. Walter Burkert writes of ancient Greek theology, Greek religion, translated from German, 1985, p. 305, my notes in square brackets:
"from the very beginning [of ancient Greek philosophy] a special form of theologia, of speaking about gods, is present too. Previously, speaking about gods in public had almost been the exclusive privelege of poets. Homer and Hesiod had provided the outlines of the divine personalities, and the lyric poets had elaborated ever more ingeniously on the familiar material, presenting it in new colors and shadings; even the reflections of wise men like Solon were put into poetic form, in the language and concepts of Homer and Hesiod. By keeping to the rules of poetry, each formulation is bound to contain a playful element. This falls away at a stroke in prose writing: the supports and predetermined paths of epithets and formulae disappear and literary tradition remains in limbo for a time, while writers attempt to state in a matter-of-fact manner what is the case."
---Elsewhere (pg. 125) Burkert further elaborates and states that ancient Greek theology developed from this new movement towards rational discussion and prose writing, away from poetry. Theology ("all of Theology", a rather generalized sweep there) developing from "judicial astrology" is just one idea, promoted by some astrologers. Alexander 007 10:05, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Most recent edits

I would have reverted the most recent edits by Theo as well. Reasons:

  • Alex did a good job at providing and citing sources for his view (just above).
  • Theo keeps reintroducing obvious linking and formatting mistakes, which I'm afraid doesn't speak for the accuracy of his work.
  • If I had any doubt left, I would tend to go with mainstream science.

That said, Alex, can I ask you to remain civil in your edit summaries? There is an RfC/Theo currently running if you have anything important to say about your fellow editor. And Theo: I suggest you take the current version as a starting point and make small edits – as others have told you before, there is no way you will succeed with large, controversial edits like these. Or even better: start discussing controversial edits on this talk page before making it. Algae 08:42, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Sure; however, I was the one who started this Wiki Page, and by means have done no large "controversial" edits. Moreover, I continue to cite sources, while some add POV, without citing sources - which I think is "controversial" considering the "strong views" some have on this subject, and certainly an adversity to historical fact. Moreover, this article is just getting started; yet some continue to act as if the current version is perfect. It is not, again, it is just getting started. As for the linking, and formatting - again - it is just getting started; and if not for the "instant reverts" would most likely be easier to fill out before getting to small edits. I started the current version since some did not find this article interesting until deciding to add POV to the subject matter without much knowledge, and more importantly, historical facts, on this subject itself. So, to achieve balance, and avoid cynical, and narrow-minded POV - citing sources is best, while remaining true to Wikipedia's "be bold" motto, and verifying sources, with NPOV.Theo 09:13, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Starting a page does not give you any claims of ownership. And a young age of an article is no excuse for reintroducing obvious mistakes that others have fixed for you. As for quoting sources, I suggest you take a look at how Alex cited his source above, and what he picked as a source (see also my comment on your talk page). I did not see others add POV, I'd be interested in specific examples of POV statements introduced by other editors. Algae 09:30, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Where in the above do I once claim any "ownership" Algae? Suggest you not make assumptions here, thanks. Sources are one of the best ways to avoid POV, and, as a judicial astrologer, and teacher, I am versed on this subject. As I stated, this particular Wiki-subject is new, and as for "obvious mistakes" I would then ask you to cite them - also using sources, as this "claim" is POV. Sources are referenced, and verifiable. Thanks.Theo 07:49, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I suppose I misjudged the significance of your assertion that it was you who created this article (you didn't, for what it's worth, but you added a lot of content). So you are not claiming ownership. – The obvious mistakes I am referring to are not POV: categories in the wrong location, incorrectly formatted sources, links that do not point to the intended article. It's now more than 24 hours that you reverted to your preferred version, and you haven't fixed any of these issues although I have pointed them out before. Algae 20:48, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
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