Talk:Judas Iscariot

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[edit] Motivation of Judas

This part is all wrong. It's definitely not encyclopedic material. It asks too many questions and tries to infer too much. I would delete it but I want to see what everyone else thinks first. SkepticMuhs 08:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

Iscariot may derive from sicari, or dagger-man , a cadre of Jewish rebels intent on driving the Romans out of Judea. Although Judas's name became synonymous with "betrayer," he may have turned Jesus in to the Romans because he felt Jesus had betrayed the rebel movement. (anon.)

I have a lot of doubts regarding both this etymology and the general perception of Jesus as some rebel leader. The rebellion against Rome (or rather, a civil war in Judaea) started in 66 A.D., more than 30 years after Jesus's supposed death. Moreover, anywhwere that I looked up, the name Iscariot is a corruption of ish qrayot (other transcriptions are possible), "a person from villages" / "a person from Qrayot". From a random Web search, the Catholic Encyclopedia seems to back me up on this. Any suggestions? --Uriyan

Ahalan, Uriyan! Looks like you beat me to it. SLR, what is the source of that etymology. It certainly does not work in the Hebrew/Aramaic and does not account for the initial I. In Hebrew, he has always (to the best of my knowledge) been known as Ish Kerayoth. Now, an article on the Sicarii (there are two i's) would be interesting. Danny

Aramaic, not Hebrew. Why would Hebrew come into it? The "-ote" is a Greek suffix meaning "-ite" or "-ian." If you think "Iscariot' is not identical to "Sicariote" you'd better "axe" a linguist! Where are these "villages" in any contemporary text anway? Why is this etymology made so controversial? that's a reasonable question. Wetman 15:45, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)~

BTW, the idea of Jesus as a rebel leader is not a new one. It is a major theme in Asch's book The Nazarene. Danny

Jesus does not have to be a rebel leader, Uriyan and Danny must understand, merely because Judas is labelled a Sicariot after the fact. This is not about Jesus being a rebel leader. This may be no more than name-calling. Wetman 15:45, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I will have to do some more checking on the etymology. I just remember several histories of Roman Judea describing, among the various factions (Pharisees, Saducees, Essenes) etc. a group of people called "sicarii" meaning basically insurectionists. Some of these books speculate (and I admit it is just that) that "iscariot" is derived from sicarii. I really thought this was common knowledge. By the way, the reversal of a vowel and consonant is common in language change. Today we call things that fly in the air "birds" even though the original word was "brids." Many today use the word "aks" to describe a question -- perhaps in a couple of centuries know one will say "ask" any more. This of course does not prove that the I and S in Judas's name was switched, but it opens the possibility.

As for the dating -- although a rebellion against Rome started in 66 CE, there was constant rebellious activity in Judea uner Roman occupation. You could say the rebellion started many years before Jesus' birth. For example, according to Josephus Herod the Great had two religious leaders executed for rebellion. In 6 CE Varus had two thousand rebels crucified. Around 48 CE two Galilleans were crucified for insurrection -- to choose "66" as a starting date is arbitrary, in this context. 66 marks the year that the rebellion became open and widespread.

In all 4 accounts in the NT, Pilate asks Jesus if he is "king of the Jews" -- the charge is sedition. Of course, there is good reason why this element of Jesus' career is toned down in the NT (although there are many textual indications of it): in the early years of Christianity (after 70, and especially after 135) Jews did not want Jewish Christians to go around preaching that Jesus would return as messiah. Once Christians turned principally to Gentiles, and gave up on converting many Jews, there was no sense to presenting Jesus as messiah in the Jewish sense (kick out the Romans, become king); a new notion of messiah would be more appealing to Gentile Romans, and this form of Christianity is expressed in the NT slrubenstein

By the way, I am not satisfied with the Catholic Encyclopedia as a definitive source. Aside from the fact that encyclopedias should rely on fresh research, and not other encyclopedias, for documentation, the Catholic Encyclopedia is obviously biased. I looked at the article and it does indeed assert that Iscariot means, without doubt, man of Keriot. But it does not provide an account of any academic debates (if there are any), nor does it provide the reasons for which it reaches this conclusion. In fact, the article (I only skimmed the rest of it) seems to rely entirely on NT quotes and references to Church Fathers. I didn't see any reference to contemporary texts or linguistics or anything else. slrubenstein

Hi, slr! First of all, I agree with you that the Catholic Encyclopedia is not the most reliable source. Nevertheless, I continue to hold that Iscariot is derived from the Hebrew Ish Kerayoth" for purely philological reasons. Here is the argument for it:

The term Ish XXX, meaning "Man of XXX" was a common appellation at that time. Examples include Nahum of Gimzo (Nahum Ish Gimzo), a legendary Tanna who appears in the Mishnah, and John of Giscala (Yohanan Ish Gush Halav), who is described by Josephus as a rebel leader in the Galilee.
While I accept the possibility of a consonantal shift in the name, there would have to be some evidence of this occurring in other, similar transliterations of names from Hebrew/Aramaic to Latin/English. I've worked on a lot of those texts professionally, and no such shift comes to mind. On the other hand, it is common in other languages: the Albanian national hero Skanderbeg was originally Alexander Bey, but the shift occurred in the Albanian itself, not in the transliteration.

("Iskander" for "Alexander" --as in Arabic --is actually very germane to the Iscariot/Sicariot issue. That has absolutely nothing to do with Albanian.Wetman 15:45, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC))

The Hebrew name for as far back as I can trace is Yehudah Ish Kerayoth, pronounced 'Ish [preceded by a glottal stop], Ke [the e representing a shewa] ra yoth. Stress is on the last syllable.

(Derivation of "-ote" comes when the original Aramaic is made Greek.Wetman 15:45, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC))

To assume that the name is from Sicarii requires a) a consonantal shift of the i and the s to justify the Is syllable, justification for the ot syllable at the end of the word. Ot (really oth), by the way, is a common Hebrew suffix, indicating the plural, most often for the feminine gender.

(Written vowels in Aramaic?

Iscariot does not require any of these explanations. The "Is represents the word Ish (the Hebrew letter shin used to represent the sh sound, is often used for the "s" sound as well, as in Yisrael/Israel. Furthermore the transliteration system began before the formalization of sh as representing that sound in English. Cariot is almost the exact equivalent of Kerayoth (say it fast a couple of times), with a simple shift of stress to the first syllable because of the addition of the suffix Ish. The stress shit can be attributed to the prefixed "Is."
The letters "sc" as transliteration appear again in the aforementioned Giscala, which is Gush Halav, the initial H being a guttural het. C appears in transliteration in place of certain sounds close to "k". Halav is sometimes transliterated chalav to represent the sound, while kerayoth is, more properly, qerayoth.
In all other of transliterations of biblical or mishnaic Hebrew, an initial letter I indicates the combination yod hiriq, combining to form the syllable yi. That does not exist in Sicarii
Apart from the historical vilification of Judas Iscariot, what evidence is there that he also belonged to a secretive band of assassins?

Sorry if it's kinda technical, but you asked about the linguistics … By the way, the Bible and later the Mishnah are full of false etymologies, intended to provide some insight into the character of the person or object. Sicarii as a source for Iscariot could well be one of those. Danny

Danny, I don't have any response to you -- this are good reasons to support Ish Keryot. I am not a scholar of Roman Judea, and my mentioning the sicarii was not an argument but a reference to something I had heard. My question is not "what is the real meaning of Iscariot;" my question is, do all scholars of Roman Judea agree as to the origin or meaning of Iscariot? If no one takes "sicarii" seriously, it should be cut; if many scholars agree with your reasons for supporting ish keryot, your reasons should be incorporated in. If there is any debate among credible scholars, I think that debate should be mentioned here. I must leave it to someone else to take this article further, I have read only a few history books. slrubenstein

Also, for what it is worth the very plausibility of your explanation would explain why the emendation I suggested might have happened. These kinds of error in verbal or written transcription occur in the direction of "more inteligible" or "more sensible," not less. In other words, a couple of cneturies after the fact, a transcriber may have read "sicarii" and thought, "This doesn't make sense, it must be a mistake" and made a correction to something that sounded a lot more reasonable -- "Is Keri" and so on. I am NOT claiming that this is what happened -- I still cannot prove it and your explanation is plausible. To prove it would require other evidence I do not have. I am just suggesting that if it did happen, it happened in something like this way, slrubenstein

Hi slr! I really mean no offence hear, but you seem to be grabbing at straws. Unfortunately, I haven't got all my resources with me at the moment, but I will try to see what I can find. It would have to be a pretty early source that made the transcription error, because all the early Aramaic sources I know say Ish Kerayoth, including photographs and slides of the earliest parchment codexes that I have seen with him mentioned. I will look around some more, see if there is a source for the sicarii interpretation. I actually think it happened the other way around. People heard the term sicarii (which was generally a negative term) and attached it to Judas. Thus a mistaken etymology was born. I'll keep checking Danny

Though it might be wrong, it's definitely been proposed. It's mentioned in "Life of Jesus", although the author says it's dubious: he cites Vito Fornari, Della vita di Gesù Cristo (1949). So, I think it deserves mention. Graft

I don't really have anything to add to the discussion, but I got to this page by searching for Skanderbeg through google. I'd like to mention that he was born under the name Gjergj Kastriot, was given the titles bey and Iskander (or whatever the spelling would be). In Albanian, the transliteration became Gjergj Kastriot Skënderbe. The Albanian language has all sorts of endings for names (depending on how it's used in a sentence) so you might see several kinds of spellings such as Gjergj Kastrioti, Skënderbeu, etc. In English you usually see Skanderbeg or George Castriota. All this makes it rather hard to find all the different spellings of a name in Wikipedia. Dori 05:35, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Regarding this text in the opening paragraph:

However, other accounts say Judas was merely the designated facilitator of a prearranged prisoner exchange (following the money-lender riot in the Temple) that gave Jesus to the Roman authorities by mutual agreement, and that the "traitor" aspect was a historical distortion.

What other accounts are being referred to here? I'd be curious as to what else they might say about Jesus, and non-Christian historical sources about Jesus seem to be few and far between. Wesley

I'm deleting the sentence listed above. The non-Christian accounts of Jesus, such as Josephus and Tacitus, do not mention any such thing. It appears to be pure speculation not attributed to any source. Wesley

Been a while since I read the Inferno, but wasn't Judas in one of the three mouths of Satan, getting chewed on? Graft

Indeed, that is the case (found my copy):

In each of his three mouths he crunched a sinner,

with teeth like those that rake the hemp and flax,

keeping three sinners constantly in pain;

The one in front-the biting he endured

was nothing like the clawing that he took:

sometimes his back was raked clean of its skin.

"That soul up there who suffers most of all,"

my guide explained, "Is Judas Iscariot:

the one with head inside and legs out kicking.''

Graft

by pointing him out to arresting Roman soldiers Not exactly. Check the documents. Wetman 15:45, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)~

Under the section 'Motivation of Judas' the text refers to Satan 'entering into Judas' - What is the bible reference for this? (sorry, would look it up but don't have a bible to hand).

[edit] Biased and/or Subjective?

This is a quote from the article:

Philosophical Questions

Judas' actions, and the divine punishment he receives for them bring up many similar troubling philosphical questions.

If Jesus foreees Judas' betrayal then Judas has no free will, and cannot avoid betraying Jesus

If Judas can not control his betrayal of Jesus, than his punishment and portrayal as a traitor in western culture is undeserved

If Judas is sent to Hell for his betrayal, and his betrayal was a necessary step in the humanity-saving death of Jesus Christ, then Judas is being punished for saving humanity

Many of these themes are brought up in Three Versions of Judas, a short story by Jorge Luis Borges.

My question (I am a little new here) is: would it be appropriate to change it to something like "For some people, Judas' actions, and the divine..." or something similar?

Sure thing. One thing you'll hear alot in Wikipedia is: Wikipedia:Be bold in updating pages! Anything you can do to add to the Wikipedia:NPOV of the article would be great. I just added these to round out the theological issues. Welcome to wikipedia! -- DropDeadGorgias (talk) 17:05, Jul 28, 2004 (UTC)

P.S. It's customary to sign talk pages with ~~~~, which appends your signature and a timestamp like so : DropDeadGorgias (talk) 17:05, Jul 28, 2004 (UTC)

Cool. Thanks. Tslag 21:56, Jul 28, 2004 (UTC)

If the themes are worth discussing, then it's best to concentrate on Jorge Luis Borges' use of Judas Iscariot and keep your own self in the background. A report is always more encyclopedic than a personal rumination. Wetman 22:09, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

A seperate question: where in the bible does it say Judas is sent to hell? i've never read the new testament, so if someone could find a passage regarding this, that would be good. Xunflash 16:08, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Judas Prohibition Eras

"In fact, in some jurisdictions it was against the law to name an infant Judas." The jurisdictions and the period would make this more informative. --Wetman 06:09, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning of Iscariot

I removed a chunk of text suggesting that 'Iscariot' comes from Aramaic. There are two main theories about the meaning of the name: a strong Hebrew-origin theory, and a weak Latin-origin theory. All other theories stand weaker.

The name is presented in Greek as Ισκαριωθ (Iskariôth) and Ισκαριωτης (Iskariôtês). This gives us a few clues: the second version is the first with a Greek ending tacked onto it. Therefore, the first, indeclinable version is likely to be the original name. As -ωθ (-ôth) would be a good representation of the feminine plural ending in Hebrew or Aramaic, it is likely that the name comes from either of those languages. It would be unlikely that a man would be given a feminine name, and therefore it is likely that this ending is part of a construct state. The Hebrew word איש (îš) means 'man', and this has been found as the first element in other topical surnames. It just so happens that there is a place called קריות (Qrîyôth) in Judah, which is mentioned in Joshua 15:25 (there's a place of the same name in Moab too). This name is the plural of קריה (qiryâ), meaning 'town'. Therefore, it seems reasonable to interpret 'Iscariot' as the Hebrew surname איש־קריות (Îš–Qrîyôth). Note that this cannot be Aramaic: the first element is clearly Hebrew. The derivation from the Latin sicarius just seems to be far more contrived, as it is improbable that Latin had any impact on Judaea. --Gareth Hughes 15:52, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

For contemporary usage of Latin sicarii in Judea, there is Josephus. --Wetman 23:01, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Any way to improve this "Bible history"?

"Judas Iscariot, son of Simon Iscariot..." Apparently we think "the Iscariot family" carried this as a surname... Thus "Mrs Iscariot, mother of Judas..." and so forth?
"...Tyrian shekels, the only coins accepted at the Temple of Jerusalem." This is a new understanding of numismatics and the economy of Antiquity. Or is this just a fanciful projection of modern foreign exchange problems: "I'm sorry we don't take those Canadian quarters here..."

The level of historical understanding here is apparently on a par with the etymological understanding. So, I have added to the text:There are two major theories on the meaning of this name the following each of which must satisfy certain expectations in order to be credible: Let us work out what are the requirements for any believable etymology— without pushing our candidates. Let us enter those prerequisites in the article. Prerequisited includes parsimony, contemporary parallels, etc. Then the reader can decide. That's an authentically neutral point-of-view (not the same as "NPOV" alas!) --Wetman 02:56, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Greek Misinterpretation

I watched a three-hour three part piece on the Discovery Channel about Jesus and there was a historian who mentioned something about the fact that when looking at the Greek of the text or something there is one word (which I am not sure what it is and I think it would be great if we could find out what it is) that he believed was misinterpreted. The word when used in all other Classical writings etc. is used to mean "hand over" but when associated with Judas the meaning has been changed to "betray". He believed this was a misinterpretation and that at the Last Supper Jesus did say to all the disciples something along the lines of, "One of you will betray me..." and then turned to Judas and told him to do what he had to do, but that none of the other disciples suspected or even thought that Judas was the betrayer. They simply thought he was either going out to give money and food to the poor so they could have a Passover meal or going out to set up preparations for the disciples Passover meal (or something of the sort). The historian mentioned how it was written that Judas was the only disciple that Jesus referred to as his friend and that Jesus probably chose Judas to hand himself (Jesus) over to the priests.

I came to Wikipedia to see what we had written up about Judas and was pleased to see that you had included sections stating that perhaps Judas had not betrayed Jesus etc. because it is good to get all sides of the story, but perhaps if we can find out about this word and the misinterpretation that would add a good bit of fact to some of the other claims. Have you or anybody else heard of what I have mentioned? I will keep looking, nice article though. --Nadsat 22:32, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)

I think the Greek word you're looking for is παραδιδωμι (paradidōmi). Its most basic meaning is 'to hand over'. It is the same word that is used in the Pauline Epistles (1 Corinthians 11.2 for example) to describe the handing down of the traditional eyewitness accounts. Therefore, the word doesn't have the negative connotations of the English 'betray', but its context shows that that is what is meant: Judas is the one who hands over Jesus to those who want him dead. It would be wrong to draw too much out of the use of this word, as its meaning is always part reliant on context. Gareth Hughes 11:51, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying the word, its been bothering me for days. Okay, I just thought that it was a more factual backing perhaps to why Judas might not actually have been the one who technically "betrayed" Jesus. I realize that its meaning is part reliant on context and that's why I thought it significant. The fact that humans have translated this word to mean "betray" when referring to Judas, versus its usual meaning of "to hand over" shows that if the word is looked at as it usually is, Judas merely handed Jesus over to those who wanted him dead, (as you said) but the significance lies in the fact that this handing over might not have been malicious and perhaps something planned that Judas "had" to do. Therefore it was not really betrayal and is only looked at that way because of human error. If you think best not to include it, that's fine, I just don't really understand. Thanks for the help with the word, again. --Nadsat 01:54, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] lost gospel ?

Apperently there is some discussion about a "possible" lost gospel from Judas which is found back again. Why is there no mention of it here?

http://www.ezilon.com/information/article_3083.shtml http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/gospeljudas.html http://www.grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=178928&t=178712

Wilbert 17:15, Apr 05, 2005 (GMT)

Interesting, but probably nothing earth-shattering. It's a Gnostic gospel, which is generally about as valuable as a Chick Comic. The Gnostics were extremely prolific and inventive, but pretty far removed from the original Christians ideologically. Graft 20:11, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

For a less dismissive view, Wilbert may want to see Gospel of Judas. --Wetman 20:42, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Portrayal of Judas

A few modern critics of European culture assert that in paintings and art of the Middle Ages and Renaissance, while the other apostles are portrayed as powerfully built Northern Europeans, Judas was given stereotypically Jewish characteristics. Specific examples of such portrayals in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, however, are hard to come by.

I added that "specific examples are hard to come by" because I thought it might flush out one. This text is an interpretation of what someone feels ought to be true, perhaps. Can anyone identify an actual European painting where Judas stands out as a "Jew"? German late Gothic panels would be a good place to start hunting. This is certainly not a familiar convention. Any reason to keep it?--Wetman 20:42, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

DaVinci's Last Supper?

Five years ago, in Colmar Museum (France) there was a renaissance-period painting - alas I did not note the painter's name - in which just one of the disciples was clearly given stereotypical 'jewish' features. Judas, of course.(wooolfy 19:43, 23 March 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Music

The song 'Potters' Field by Antrax seems to be about Judas and his betrayal. And I feel that Metallica's 'The God That Failed' is also of the same betrayal. "Healing hands held back by deepened nails". And I am sure I'm not the first to think of the latter.

I added a reference to Leon Rosselson's "Stand Up For Judas" awhile back; that reference seems to have gone away. While I concede that the English folkie is hardly a household name, I'd contend this song is at least as significant as some professional "wrestler" being referred to as "Judas". I don't want to get into a "revert war" but I would like to petition for restoring the reference. (Note: the "David Campbell" listed as performing the cover version on "And They All Sang Leon Rosselsongs" is not me.) --Davecampbell 22:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

On further investigation, it appears the entire section on songs referring to Judas was deleted in "Revision as of 16:59, 29 April 2006; 168.13.116.5". I don't see any discussion as to why that section was deleted. I propose to restore it, but not without discussing it first. Anyone have anything to say about it? --Davecampbell 20:28, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I've re-added and fleshed out the reference to "Stand Up For Judas" here, and in the pop-culture article as well. --Davecampbell 18:53, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other Religions

It is believed in Islam that when Judas tried to surrender Jusus Christ to the authorities, God exchanged the two persons' bodies and faces. So, Jesus looked like Judas and Judas looked like Jesus. The "police" took Judas instead of Jesus and crucified him. God then raised Jesus to Heaven without being killed. Hamadamas 10:12, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Judas is evil, not as the traitor, but as the suicidor.

The great significance about Judas is not his treason but his suicide. Should he repent, the other 11 apostles would have needed to forgive him and reconcile with him and he could wander the Eath preaching like the other Apostles did and suffer martyrdom. He would be venerated, even bigger sinners have reformed to become saints. It was his suicide which made him unredeemably evil, because that was the great crime against nature, not the treason.

- - - - Hmmm... curious to know if there has been scholarly speculation that (assuming Judas existed) the man's death may not have been a suicide but made to look like one? 202.156.6.54 15:19, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it was a hit. Probably by the Hittites, who specialized in that craft. Wahkeenah 22:31, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Judas" as a reproach

Do you think Wikipedia will soon need an article List of occasions when "Judas" was used as a reproach ? It's beginning to look like it. --Wetman 10:54, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Judas window

Somewhere should mention that the word "judas" or "judas window" means a peephole in a door. it's not worth having it's own article.

I am new to this discussion and not an expert either. But I noticed that the article states that Jesus was arrested by "Roman soldiers". Actually I believe that he was arrested by armed guards or henchmen employed by the Jewish authorities and wasn't turned over to the Romans till later. Thank you.

[edit] Why does this have photographs requested?

I think photography was a little bit after Judas's time. Ken Arromdee 05:29, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I've taken that out. Ken Arromdee 21:49, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Judas Info

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Judas Iscariot, vilified as Christ's betrayer, acted at Jesus' request in turning him over to the authorities who crucified him, according to a 1,700-year-old copy of the "Gospel of Judas" unveiled on Thursday. In an alternative view to traditional Christian teaching, the Judas gospel shows the reviled disciple as the only one in Jesus' inner circle who understood his desire to shed his earthly body.

Source : [1]

I think the quotation marks around "Jesus" and "Judas" should be removed in the section "Gospel of Judas". They imply that the persons mentioned in the text are not the same as the ones mentioned in the Bible, and there is no reason to suppose so. --Tail 12:29, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Seen this. Go to www.nationalgeographic.com to see more info. of this nature. Martial Law 06:43, 8 April 2006 (UTC) :)

[edit] Jesus didn't ask?

It said in the first line that Jesus asked judas to betray him, which, according to biblical texts, is quite innaccurate. I've changed it so that it says that he is said to have betrayed him, which is somewhat more accurate in my opinion.

[edit] Philosophical Questions

I cleaned this section up a little. There were remarks throughout that was not NPOV, attempting to discredit the philosophical questions posed. They served no purpose but to confuse the reader and distract from the observations. User:65.8.227.163 18:38, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

You were right to delete that stuff, but I've got a hunch the entire "Gospel According to Judas" is going to prove to be an elaborate fraud in any case, kind of an "antiquified" version of the Hitler "diaries" or the Howard Hughes "autobiography". Wahkeenah 18:42, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I just Undid my revert to 65.8.227.163's changes. Please include a edit discription if only a small one. It makes vandalism easier to spot, Espesially with articles like this which are prone to vandalism. Orangutan 20:01, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] General Improvement

I'd like to see this article come closer to featured material. I started today with a variety of edits - adding wikilinks to articles (Temptation of Jesus, Arrest of Jesus, Jesus and the Money Changers), improving the grammar (inc. removing several misused commas), and tidying up some of the sentence structures. Any thoughts? - Slow Graffiti 01:13, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Date of Death

How can anyone accurately detail the time of Judas' death? According to Matthew, 27:5 :

               "And throwing the down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; 
                         and he [Judas] went and hanged himself."

By this account, Judas committed suicide before Jesus even died.

They havent detailed the time of his death. Its somewhere around 28-33CE. That’s not particularly accurate...

Its more accurate than the date of death for Zoroaster which is 3000-560 BCE. Clinkophonist 20:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Photo

Last April I added a detail from statue of Judas in Malta. This was removed. Why? Maltesedog 11:07, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Going to Heaven

OK, many forms of literature (and the movie Passion of the Christ) suggested that Judas might had gone to Hell. But many Catholics believe that you can be the biggest sinner in the world, but you can go to heaven if you are truely sorry for your sins. In the bible, Judas admitted that he had sin and even feels bad to the point where he threw away the 30 pieces of silver and even asked the king (or what ever type of ruler he was) to release Jesus. It seems like he was truely sorry for his betrayal. Isn't it quite possible that Judas would had gone to Heaven?

I'm fairly certain Jesus said something about his betrayer, to the effect of the betrayer soon coming into a very bad situation.... Homestarmy 19:41, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

It never really said in the bible that Judas went to Hell (that's what I think, I could be wrong). Maybe the bad situation was being hung and/or feeling guilty.

[edit] Am I missing it

Or is the information according to the four Gospels of his time spent with Jesus missing? 74.137.230.39 04:02, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, actually, you appear to be correct :/. I don't see any conspicious edit summaries to indicate it being deleted for some reason either.... Homestarmy 04:27, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

It seems user Rara vandalised that section on 18 October and missed by a bot, I think it has been fixed now, but someone may wish to check Gazjo 08:33, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

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