User talk:Jossi

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AMA Alert posted: There are 6 cases that need Advocacy. Remember to close old cases. The December 2006 Meeting is now open!


  1. 2006 December
  2. User talk:jossi/Archives/2006 November
  3. User talk:jossi/Archives/2006 October
  4. User talk:jossi/Archives/2006 September
  5. Older archives: archive 1 • archive 2 • archive 3• archive 4 • archive 5 • archive 6 • archive 7 • archive 8 • archive 9 • archive 10

Contents

[edit] Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University

Dear Jossi,

I am writing to you again since you are more familiar with the issues we have in that page. User .244 continues to modify the main page. The tags you placed in the article are gone. Moreover, I can place athird warning for vandalism in his talk page, but he will do the same to mine. What alternative do I have? As I said before, user .244 has started this page in wikipedia and he is against our organization. I have supplied reliable sources in the page which is being changed by him. Even the tags you placed are gone now.

User brahmakuris.info has edited all these pages [[1]] on the 15th November that used to link to this page and replaced them all with identical text. I believe this is called a "forest fire". I request that this is looked into.

Also, please take a look at this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahma_Kumaris This is the page that has been mirrored. It was started by user .244 as well. Could you check if 195.82.106.244 is a sockpuppet of brahmakumaris.info?

As I checked with you before, I will delete headers without reliable sources this Saturday. Hope to count with your support on this.

Best Wishes, avyakt7 15:33, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


I have reverted all of the above mentioned pages, and I would like to add to the list of "charges" that Bhramakumaris.info archived the discussion page with a lot of current discusions going on. Sethie 00:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Look, I am going back in to contribute to the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University. I have agree fine to work the citation the dominant contributor Brahma Kumari Luis Riveros is proposing. Much of my edit is in paraphrasing untidy verbatim copy and paste quotation into neater prose. Plpease note the bogus vandalism accusation made.
Riveros had be blocked on the basis of accusation of "not being willing to discuss changes". Wiki records will show that I instigated both a Request for Mediation and a Request for Arbitration with Riveros11 but on both occasions he refused to participate. You and another admin have cited Wiki policy of allowing self-published material which the other editor refuses to accept. I have even accept using the academic citation he suggests but am still subject to skillfully crafted ad hominen attacks by this member of the religious group in question. Please see discussion pages. It is laughable that I am the one being accused on not being willing to discuss!
Yes, it bores the pants of me too ...
So easy on that trigger finger until you have a better overview of what is really going on. Riveros11 seem to have sussed out the miracle of slapping Vandalism warnings on anyone that questions his worldview. 195.82.106.244 01:57, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I invite you both to pursue Wikipedia:Dispute resolution to resolve your differences. Please use your user:talk pages, to the article's talk page to continue your conversation, and remember that Wikipedia is not a battleground. 02:05, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Jossi, I have complied with your suggestion of giving additional days for .244 reliable sources. He has not provided any. He has reverted the page again and blanked his talk page so no one can see that he was blocked before. He has placed 2 warnings in my talk page so he is waiting for me to revert it so I could be blocked. He sent me a message about going into arbitration which I have agreed. I have no heard from him since. Is there any other avenue that I could take? I really do not mind if that article is not there...It wasn't Brahma Kumaris idea to have it there...it was the idea of someone who is against this movement. Could this article be taken off line? (at least while in arbitration) It is not fair to have a version which is innacurate and detrimental to us. Hope to hear from you. avyakt7 02:09, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


Articles that have been created cannot be deleted, unless placed on WP:AFD. I doubt that deletion is an option, although is some occasions, ArbCom rulings can include "stubbing" an article if there is substantial concern that the article is non-compliant with WP policies. I will check that anon's talk page, as removal of admin notices is considered vandalism. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 02:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


Jossi,
Please see reply in discussion page [2]
TalkAbout 21:26, 22 November 2006 (UTC)PEACE


For the record Jossi - as user Riveros11 well knows because he was informed on both occasions - both arbitration and mediation failed because he refused to sign up and participate.
I hope that you are getting the jist of this Jossi. It is fairly pointless for me to engage with this BK when he refuses to read, accept or acknowledge any alternative view - and refused to engage in any discussion with third party. If he say he will do so now, it is only to mislead you. A bit like this being a good boy to the admin by giving a few more days. Its bull. If you want, I play along for the sake of experiment. Or you bothered enough to be party to this?
The state of the previous article was fully referenced by the given biography etc. One would have had to actually read the biography to know known that but then an article is not required to be a copy and paste of academic papers. Question;
  • Did you manage to clear with him the matter of the self-published material or are we all still in denial of that?
Thanks. 195.82.106.244 20:56, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Ingrid Newkirk

Before you dash off warnings, it would be appropriate if you'd spend some time browsing through the edit history of the article. It shows that other users despite initial reservations have modified it to better represent the same well cited quotation. And you are reporting an edit from a couple of days back! As an admin you should do your homework before issuing warnings based on dated edits on issues that are resolved. btw, the issue was never about defamation as I'd like to quote the WP policy "all information being referenced through the citation of reliable published sources". The information was referenced through reliable published sources. San Francisco Chronicle is a reliable source. So please look at the current situation of the article and don't issue unsubstantiated warnings based on old edit summaries. Idleguy 05:24, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Idleguy distorted the referenced quote by leaving out a vital part of it, and the insulting edit summary was not from a source, but from Idleguy. SlimVirgin (talk) 05:46, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I didn't leave out any part, the original source only mentioned that part and I quoted that. The current one mentions the entire section. I admit the edit summary was a bit wayward and am genuinely sorry. Idleguy 05:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
It isn't true that you quoted the source you found. Your source quoted her as saying: "I would go to work early, before anyone got there, and I would just kill the animals myself. Because I couldn't stand to let them go through (other workers abusing the animals.) I must have killed a thousand of them, sometimes dozens every day." (emphasis added)
You quoted her as saying: "'I'd go to work early, before anyone got there, and I would just kill the animals myself' adding that 'I must have killed a thousand of them, sometimes dozens every day'."
You left out the crucial "Because I couldn't stand to let them go through (other workers abusing the animals.)" which explained why she was doing it. That isn't honest editing. SlimVirgin (talk) 07:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Edit summaries cannot be removed, so be very cautious with what you write there, particularly on BLPs. I would also suggest that you take it a bit easier with your edits. Wikipedia is not a battleground, neither it is a place for advocating for or against a subject. Do that and you will avoid warnings such as the one I placed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:05, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Point taken about edit summary. Re edits, it must be noted that PETA - and some of its people - are controversial in the real world and the article is but a reflection of reality. I always edit only with sources. WP:NOT is more applicable for a few editors who are constantly on such pages, whereas I only have a passing interest. In fact i only edited the peta and related pages in the last few days, because it doesn't specify anything about the new animal terrorism act; only to find more discrepancies and missing info in PETA article. Idleguy 06:27, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't matter how controversial you think PETA and its staff are, you must not only edit using sources, but you must use the sources correctly, and not quote or paraphrase material out of context, or conveniently leave out parts of quotes because they don't suit your aim of demonization. SlimVirgin (talk) 07:24, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Don't launch personal attacks stating "demonization" etc. This is the second time you're attempting to do so. It's not my opinion that they are controversial, the FBI too investigated them because of their controversial activities. It appears you just revert before reading the source - for had it been so then you'd have made the inclusion yourself. Remember that i am only a third party and do not hold any personal passion for the organization like you, which seems to colour your thinking. your statement "the PETA edits used terrible sources" in my talk page, when half of the original sources came from US Senate etc. only proves your blatant bias. All you needed to do was request for a better citation in a normal tone - that I've provided now - instead of just accusing others of having demonized your pet article. To think that you accuse others of being rude, when you don't seem too polite either is the irony. Idleguy 07:41, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Your edits to Ingrid Newkirk were clearly intended to demonize her. You distorted a quote of hers to make her look bad and you left an insulting edit summary about her. It's totally unacceptable editing. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I thought I said sorry for the edit summary, but you continue to harp on the same matter. Anything I say or do can and will be seen by you as a demonizing edit. I don't wish to continue this any further. Idleguy 08:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
You mention the edit summary but neglect to explain the distorted quote. Why did you leave out: "Because I couldn't stand to let them go through (other workers abusing the animals)"? SlimVirgin (talk) 09:03, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia: External Links

I noted your change on Wikipedia:External links and you titled it a "consolidation". However, you omitted a key paragraph that has been a part of this standard for some time:

"A website that you own, maintain or are acting as an agent for; even if the guidelines otherwise imply that it should be linked to. This is in line with the conflict of interests guidelines. If it is a relevant and informative link that should otherwise be included, mention it on the talk page and let neutral and independent Wikipedia editors decide whether to add it."

Did you intend to do this, is it already covered elsewhere, or simply an omission error? To me, this is a key clause and should be retained. BTW, thanks for restoring the Youtube example. I agree with you wholeheartedly! Calltech 17:00, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I will re-add that sentence witrh some necessary tweaks. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] tag

Regarding the "unreferenced" tag you just put onto the article about the Sergeyev Collection, there is an entire list of sources at the bottom of the page. Mrlopez2681 03:25, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I saw that, but it would be best if you can do add some inline references. A further reading section may be also useful. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:28, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conflict of Interest

I have nothing that can conceivably be called a conflict of interest in regard to Wiki. The only person who could be thought of as having a conflict of interest is yourself as you have been and are, on your own admission, a paid employee of Prem Rawat and a "student" of him. I think you should read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_of_interest. It seems to be simpler to make a small edit and discuss once it is up but I am pretty flexible. Tgubler 21:00, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I am very aware of WP:COI and so you should, and FYI, I am not been paid by Prem Rawat, and I have already declared that I am no longer editing these articles directly as advised by WP:COI (see User:Jossi/Disclosure). As a person that was involved in a legal dispute with a related organization, you could be easily perceived to try and use WP as a way to "get even" after having been found stealing computer data as per your own admission, and the subsequent legal imbroglio in which you were involved. You also forget your mention the fact that you have signed an affidavit in which you state that you did stole that data "with the purpose of harassing and harming Prem Rawat and his students".
Given your very obvious COI, and given the precarious situation you are in as it pertains to editing these articles, I remind you that you can easily contribute to the talk page and have other editors assess your contributions on its merits. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:34, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tgubler, Prem Rawat

I've commented on his Talk: page. Jayjg (talk) 22:37, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:46, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edited my bio and I'm creating bios for Joan Shogren and Dennis Fregger please check

Jossi,

I went to my bio and saw that it didn't meet requirements. Sorry, I love Wikipedia and don't want to do anything wrong. I'm still not sure I did it right ... but, not sure how else to handle it. I've also created two other bios, trying my best to meet your requirements.

Thank you. Brad Bradfregger 00:52, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

No problems. I would advise you to check if these two persons meet the notability criteria. One way to measure notability would be to find third-party sources about these persons. See Wikipedia:Notability. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:09, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for your support at RFA

I wasn't going to send thank-you cards, but the emotional impact of hitting WP:100 (and doing so unanimously!) changed my mind. So I appreciate your confidence in me, and hope you'll let me know if I can do anything for you in the future. Cheers! -- nae'blis 21:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Congrats! ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Source Question

Jossi,

You say a "published" source is needed, would a reputable online source work (i.e. MobyGames) or does it need to be an actual magazine or newspaper?

Brad Fregger Bradfregger 22:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

An online source could be OK, if that website is authoritative on the subject. MobyGames.com seems to me to be a discussion forum, and discussion forums are not considered a good source to support claims made in articles. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] EL

I'll give it some thought, Jossi. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:11, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Request

Hi Jossi, would you mind checking out the discussion at Talk:Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi#argh! and Talk:Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi#WTF?!? Thanks, Khoikhoi 03:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Sure. I'll take a look. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:27, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] please comment

here: [3] Slrubenstein | Talk 16:07, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Saipansucks.com talk page

I think it is wise and appropriate to include a link, or probably better several links, to external General Forums where people can talk about the content of saipansucks.com in ways NOT related to improving it. Otherwise, I predict that the talk page will soon enough become a place where people bicker about saipansucks.com itself. I have seen talk pages of controversial articles become a nightmare. I am just trying to head off a problem, before it even has chance to develop. I do not see anything prohibiting such on Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines so I am wondering what you rationale is for several times removing the external link I posted. C.m.jones 21:07, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

It is not appropriate to link to such forums in the headers of talk pages. See WP:SPAM#Canvassing. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:14, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't see anything relevant to what I am trying to do at WP:SPAM#Canvassing. C.m.jones 23:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Show me one article talk page in which there are links to discussion forums placed at the header. We are here writing an encyclopedia, neither advocating for or against anything, nor to engage in discussions or foster discussions about the subjects covered in articles. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:13, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I have seen it once but do not recall where. That is where I got the idea from. I am not trying to advocate, engage, foster, whatever, and I do not appreciate having my motives apparently questioned like that. I do not own a forum anywhere, if that is what you are wondering. I am simply trying to head off trouble on the Talk Page. I am trying to shunt people away from the talk page who will probably come to talk, but not about improving the article. I do not care to where users are shunted, there are several places on the Internet that have forums about Saipansucks.com; but if the children do not have a playroom they will play in the living room and disrupt those trying to talk. See what I mean? C.m.jones 00:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I see what you mean, but the fway to address this is to enforce talk-page discipline when there is a need for that. I do not see at this point that there is a need to ask the few contributors to the article to go somewhere else to discuss the subject. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
"Enforce talk-page discipline" - exactly what I would rather avoid!
The header at the page says, "This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject." I think it is acceptable and wise to add a box just below it saying, Forums for general discussion about this article's subject are available elsewhere on the Internet - and leave it at that for now. C.m.jones 01:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
No. That is not acceptable. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Can you point me to the policy stating that, please? C.m.jones 02:08, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
There is no policy for everything, but there is a shared understanding that what you are trying to do is not acceptable. You may want to consult with other administrators, by adding the {{helpme}} tag in your talk page. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:12, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. That is really cool that template exists. :-) C.m.jones 04:07, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Here is the comment I received:
I understand you want to head off a possible talkpage mediation headache, but until it manifests it probably isn't necessary. Still, there is no policy against such a pre-emptive action. If you really want to, then Be Bold and do it. If you do, please don't link directly to a forum but do as you suggested and direct people to the interenet in general. Otherwise we have a slippery slope where people figure they can spam their favorite forum by using a similar technique. In short, I don't see a need for it until there is a need for it, but if you really want to then I don't see how it would harm anything. SWAdair 05:20, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I think this is fair, a sort of middle ground between our viewpoints. I will leave it out for now but if (when?) extraneous posters start posting, will feel free to put it in as per the above. Is this an acceptable agreement to you, too? C.m.jones 05:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
If and when that happens, you can suggest to people to have non-article related discussions off-wiki. That would be acceptable i done in an ad hoc fashion. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:25, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anne Milton

Why is it justified to mention and describe the blog but not say where it is (not link to it, you seem to have read that wrong)? Please respond on Talk:Anne Milton. Fys. “Ta fys aym”. 00:40, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Preponderance of evidence" sources?

While trying to confirm second-week sales figures for Bianca Ryan, I've seen several posts at message boards; all give identical figures and claim to be the "Official SoundScan numbers". This creates two questions: one, is there such a thing as a "preponderance of evidence" source; two, would publication of this figure on Wikipedia prior to its public (free) release violate any copyrights? RadioKirk (u|t|c) 19:30, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Don't think it is an issue of copyright. But may be an issue with verifiability. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Okay, this just popped up today; any thoughts about this site's reliability? RadioKirk (u|t|c) 21:28, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Why don't you use http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/index.jsp as the source? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Two reasons: one, only the top 100 of the Billboard 200 is available to non-subscribers; two, sales figures are not listed. RadioKirk (u|t|c) 22:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Query

I was wondering why my editing policy worries you, considering I haven't changed the wording on any policy or guideline since December 1st (indeed, a "silent period"), with the exception of this warning about username blocks. Does that clause really worry you? (Radiant) 00:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Radiant, what worried me was your intervention on that dispute and making no distinction between long-standing editors and others that may be disruptive. We are having a very difficult time with some users that are endlessly introducing minutiae and wasting everybody's time in policy pages. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I believe you have misunderstood me. My suggestions have been to get the page protected (which should stop further disruption) and open an RFC on the people perceived to be disruptive. Also I note that the main dispute is about the "verifiability, not just truth" paragraph, and I wrote that I agreed with that paragraph. The intent of that all, indeed, is to put an end to the difficult time you mention. I fail to see how my opinion is then construed as endorsing disruption, for it is nothing of the sort. (Radiant) 00:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification. It is appreciated. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] [Rumi Poems]

Hi Jossi, I’m interested in adding more poems to the Jalal al-Din Muhammad Rumi page on Wikisource and I saw your name in the history log of one of the poems on that page. I understand from your note in discussion that rumi.net allowed the poem to be published under the GNU. Did they indicate that they might be willing to also allow this with further translations of Rumi poems? Also would you be interested in working to update this page? Thanks! S.dedalus 07:54, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I will love to help with that article. Check also Wikisource: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Author:Jalal_al-Din_Muhammad_Rumi ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Your Wiki Admin Work Shows Bias

You used admin warnings to shield bias in the Landmark Education article, and then you did something more outrageous by trying to silence objections to this. I will be surprised if you don't try to remove this comment. I seriously think you should consult WP:NPOVFAQ and review the section on biased contributors and editors. You are not above bias. I examined the Landmark Education carefully and I think almost anyone should be able to see a pattern of bias, not objective argument. To see this happening at the level of an admin is disappointing. I think that keeping a cool head would benefit you. Wbroun 02:30, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

As said in your talk page, below the warnings about your violations of WP:NPA, if you haveany complaints about my behavior as an administrator of Wikipedia, you can file a complaint at the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I struck out my earlier comments because I don't agree with them any longer. Wbroun 04:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Your input is requested

Your input would be appreciated at this Request for Comments. Kelly Martin (talk) 15:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More about Rumi

I recently found a large collection of uncategorized GNU Rumi poem here [4]. They appear to have been added to the wrong wiki and I was thinking of transferring them to Wikisource: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Author:Jalal_al-Din_Muhammad_Rumi. It looks like a big task (many poems are missing titles our have problems with translation) and I’m specifically looking for people to help organize and research these poems. Interested? S.dedalus 22:20, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Let's divide the task. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:25, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit war

Hi, i need your help on the Safiyya bint Huyayy article in wikipedia. She was a Jewish girl from the Banu Nadir tribe. Banu naddir where killed by mohammad and the women where taken as concubines. An editor there is making war about me including the word concubine in. Plz read the talk page, karl is neatral, and wants more editors to be involved. Thanks. Plz reply on my talk.

FrummerThanThou 14:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Commented in that article's talk page. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
RE "This should be an easy dispute to resolve. Just find how Safiyya is described in reputable sources. If there are conflicting descriptions, i.e. concubine and slave girl, use both descrptions and attribute each to the corresponding source."
  • Hi Jossi. That there is no mention in any sources of Safiyya as a concubine, is not the point of contention. We don't need a source in this case, in fact even if there where thousands of them in favor of Safiyya's alleged non-concubine status, it still wouldn;t be relevant. I asserted Safiyya was a concubine by the fact that she was captured, and given the circumstances (husband, family and whole tribe slain) she accepted to be a concubine so as stay alive. I do not need a source for this, i'm pushing for a re-phrasal of the title 'wife' (though arguably both titles could be included), given the facts in that very article. I am not just entitled to this edit and to revert but perhaps obligated in accords to WP:BIAS since from a global prspctv; for us Jews, she was a concubine who lived all her days so, while to Muslims she has the grand title of Mother of the Believers. We are not trying to determine Mohammad's intentions with her, whether she should be a sex slave A or a sex slave B, or whether she converted or not, and how she did. These facts do not change the underlying fact that according to what a concubine is, and according to the fact that she was captured, she was a concubine! Hope I've enlightened you on this point and reconsider your last comment. FrummerThanThou 05:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
That is what WP:NOR warns us about. We need to keep simply describing what reliable sources say about Safiyya. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University

You seem to have spent some time on the talk page of this article. Would you care to comment at WP:RFAR where the 195 editor has filed a request for arbitration? Thanks. Thatcher131 04:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:25, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thank You!

Thank you for your comment regarding Administrator Warnings versus User Comments on talk pages. Sm1969 04:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Barnstar for Safiyya bint Huyayy

The Original Barnstar
For excellent use of research skills and cool, reasoned thinking to defuse a debate about whether Safiyya bint Huyayy was the wife or the concubine of the prophet Muhammad. Karl Dickman talk 05:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi Jossi: I was supremely impressed with the way that you stepped into the talkpage and did a lot of research into the question. I tried to be a voice of reason and moderation, but was simply too lazy/distracted to put in the effort that you did. I don't know you that well, but that one example speaks very highly of your skills as a Wikipedian. Cheers, Karl Dickman talk 05:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Christian Democracy

Hello! As an editor of the article on Christian Democracy, I'd like to see you comment on Talk:Christian Democracy#Revolutionary socialism equated with violence. Thank you. Jobjörn (Talk ° contribs) 04:47, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Responded in that article's talk page. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:04, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
True that, but the issue at hand there is whether a phrase about revolutionary socialism is to be included in the article or not. Any comments on that? Jobjörn (Talk ° contribs) 05:07, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Landmark Education: Intro

Can you take a look at the Landmark Education intro and what Wbroun has done to it? Can we consider that vandalism? Sm1969 06:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I would hesitate to call it vandalism, simply because it seems that he has put a significant amount of work into his citations. However, I agree that parts of his new additions are inappropriate - or at least definitely inappropriate for the introduction section. Smeelgova 07:35, 9 December 2006 (UTC).
That was the funniest WP:LEAD I have read in a while. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 13:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Your message

Dear Sir, I noticed you left a threat at my talk page. Duly noted. As a reply, I would like to inform you that I have not edited any article on the en.wikipedia.org website in my entire life. Further, I will continue to leave my opinion on whatever Talk-page I feel like.

Cordially, An Anonymous User 88.113.137.249 17:20, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The warning message, was related to this posting from the same IP address, that was in violation of our no personal attacks policy. If you want to avoid problems of mistaken identity, please register with a username. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:26, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I have not made a personal attack on any one person. Please target your bullying elsewhere. Cordially, An Anonymous User 88.113.137.249 18:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Your rejection of the RFM

I'm just curious as to what all your involvement in the mediation case is, and whether you feel it can go on with your absence. ^demon[omg plz] 20:57, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Sure. That was my intention by removing my rejection and my status as a party. I tried to assist with the disputes there, but sides may need the type of help that I cannot provide. I may offer some comments here and there during the mediation, if I see that it may be helpful. Feel free to talk to me either via this page or email, if you need any assistance with the case. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:06, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Oh ok, I hadn't read deeply into it yet, so I didn't realize that you had been attempting mediation and weren't directly involved. Makes sense now. Thanks ^demon[omg plz] 22:02, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Seems that editors there are finding some common ground. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:08, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Safiyya

Jossi, your input into this topic is much appreciated, but please stay focused.

For now I have added in 'who was captured'. But I maintain she should be titled 'concubine'. Its not even a negative term by the way, it just makes it clear it wasn't a boy-meets-girl thing. You are quoting islamic sources as what she was. That is not good, after all Wolfgang Priklopil made Natascha Kampusch his wife, yet the headlines did not read 'WOLFGANG PRIKLOPIL'S WIFE FOUND ALIVE IN CELLAR'!? In other words, we can't quote Islamic litriture when it comes to enlgish titles such as concubine, they don't even have such a concept, they have Nikah (permanent marriage), Nikah Mut'ah (temporary marriage) and Ma malakat aymanukum (captive)!!!

Furthermore, you said we need a source for her being referred to as a concubine as apposed to (in this case) deducing from existent sourced facts. QUESTION, in order to call Deorge Bush 'President George Bush' would we need to find a source seeing the words 'president' and George bush arm in arm somewhere on Google?

I will reiterate the argument in simple terms. She was captured after the massacre of her family, tribe, neighbouring tribes (and possibly her own children since all males where killed in accords to the tradition then up untill recently). Mohammad 'married' her, yes he liked her and she wasnt just a 'non veiled' partner, wow, big deal, we in this day and age dont give credence to that meaning she was a wife as apposed to a sex slave. We don't know the exact circumstances of every day from there on, but she remained with him and bore children to him. After she died all her property went to her Jewish family (sister who followed Judasim, dont know what the story is there) which means she reconnected with her kin.

It is beyond my understanding how this discussion drew out over a few lines, the only possible reason could be our fear of being anti Islam. I would like this to come to a consensus, clearly the majority of comments are for it.

Remember this is in good faith. Cheers

FrummerThanThou 23:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I did just some research to help resolve the dispute. All the sources I found describe Safiyya s a wife and not as a concubine, that is what we are describing in the article. Of course, if you find sources that have a competing viewpoint, the article would be enhanced by adding that source. As for your comments about bearing Muhammad children, I have not found any sources that say that. Again, if there is such source, it would an excellent addition to the article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:33, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Jossi, that is not a satisfactory reply. Please answer me the two questions above. the George bush one and the Wolfgang Priklopil one. Thanks. FrummerThanThou 23:36, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
FrummerThanThou, I do not understand the analogy with Bush. George W. Bush is widely known as the current president of the US. There is no dispute about that, is there? We only know about Safyyia what historians and other scholars say about her, and we report that in the article. As for the analogu with kidnapper Wolfgang Priklopil, I do not see any possible analogy. Having responded to you to the best of my ability, I would appreciate it if you can continue this conversation at Talk:Safiyya_bint_Huyayy and not here. Thanks is advance. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
No, i would like to talk here for the following reason. You have taken us off the subject. The talk page there is a valuable space for unaccustomed editors to catch up on the issues involved. If we can get back to talking about why she shouldn't be called a concubine according to normal thinking then we can continue on the talk page there. You say above "We only know about Safyyia what historians and other scholars say about her, and we report that in the article." My point is that it is present in the article about how she was captured, there fore the status 'concubine' should be 'attributed' to her. You ask for sources of her being referred to as a concubine, but that is not needed, you belittled my Bush analogy, even if Bush WASN'T widely known as a President, and even if we couldn't find him on google referred to as a President, we would be ABLE to attribute that title to him if it said in his article he was elected to presidency and the election was sourced! As for Wolfgang Priklopil, in his warped mind, his concubine was his wife, but WIKIPEDIA DOESN'T CARE! ...and we call him a kidnapper and Natasha was KIDNAPPED... which means Saffiya was a concubine, since according to any dictionary the first criteria is "A woman who lives with a man, but who is not a wife.", which is exactly what she was. You see, bearing in mind the aforementioned Wolfgang Priklopil analogy... and this is getting annoying for me to repeat, Mohammad's classification of marriage is not ours, if you throw your cloak over a 17 year girl after you've killed of everyone she knew, you're not "married" to her in most normal people's opinion! This is what is so annoying, you took up the whole talk page with all your refs of Islamic discussions on whether she was this kind of wife or not and other irrelevant stuff... and you got me all worked up, I've never been so taken back on by sidetracking a point, i thought you would next propose that Mohammad's battles where all holy wars because he thought so himself. Mohammad was a barbarian who took any girl who caught his fancy, even his daughter in law, but I'm not going to smear wikipedia with it just to offend Muslims. By the way your paintigs are amazing! i thought they where vectors first! FrummerThanThou 02:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I understand your point. After all I am a Jew. But note that Wikipedia is not a place in which we debate our own views on anything, including historical facts about Muhammad. As editors, we simply describe in articles whatever information is available in reputable publications. That is all. As fascinating a subject Mumammad is, I do not want to engage in discussions in Wikipedia about the subject. If you want, you can email me to discuss the subject. As editors we avoid discussing the subject, and instead we discuss the article. A subtle, but very significant distinction, that many contributors miss, and as a consequence get "worked out". As for your mention of Google, this is my opinion: Google is a fantastic search engine, but that is all. A Google query is not a replacement for solid research. Maybe one day, when all books, periodicals, journals, and other printed material are on-line and searchable... ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Thank you for your Landmark Education article work!

I cannot overstate how much I appreciate your willingness to work toward a compromise on that extremely dicey article. I regret some of my earlier comments directed at you (I have no excuse), and see the wisdom of some of your earlier moves. You have shown patience and I appreciate that, too. Wbroun 04:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. And also congratulate yourself for having been able to come around full circle. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Brahma Kumaris

Hello,

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Brahma Kumaris. Please add any evidence you may wish the arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Brahma Kumaris/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Brahma Kumaris/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, --Srikeit 17:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Informal mediation?

Jossi, would you be willing to informally mediate some disputes on the Free Republic article?

We have differences of opinion on NPOV, RS, undue weight, and other issues as well.

Thanks in advance if you can. - F.A.A.F.A. 22:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I will take a look. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Blocked

You blocked me from editting when I didn't deserve it. I had been previously warned that if I reverted the article one more time I would be blocked, so I stopped. Then you blocked me without justification and without violating the three revert rule! Unfair and unjust! I demand apologies and compensation! Kiske 06:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gravitational flux density of Earth

All the formulas you need to calculate it:

http://www.imath.kiev.ua/~symmetry/Symmetry2001/Bedrij589-601.pdf

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I already know it, and you can actually calculate it extremely simply, without any of the formulas listed there. Have you calculated it? If you haven't, you'll be pleasantly surprised by the result. Karl Dickman talk 23:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I am all ears... ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

G=\frac{F_G}{m}=\frac{m g}{m}=g, where G is the strength of the field, FG is the force caused by the field, m is the mass of an object in the field, g is the acceleration due to gravity. Now, lete me explain what this means.

[edit] Gravitational and electric fields

The gravitational flux density is the same quantity as the gravitational field strength, just like electric flux density is the same quantity as electric field strength. What do I mean by this? Allow me to explain using a common technique for visualising electric and magnetic fields (it can also be applied to gravitational fields) is the concept of "lines of force", which was developed by Michael Faraday.

In the case of electric fields, lines of force start at positive charges and terminate at negative charges. Consider the case of a single positively charged body: it should have lines of force radiating from it in all directions like the spokes of a wheel. The larger the charge of the body, the more lines of force it has. For a negative charge, the lines of force should enter it from all directions; the field looks the same as that generated by a positive charge, but the arrows point in the opposite direction. Now consider two charges of opposite sign but the same magnitude (illustrated here). Some of the lines of force generated by the positive charge radiate into space, while others curve around and end at the negative charge.

Now consider a small positively charged body with a charge q0, such that q0 is negligible relative to the charge \pm q of either charge in the dipole (q_0 \ll |q|). In Physics, we call this a test charge. If the test charge is acted upon by no other force than that generated by the electric field, it will follow a line of force to come to rest on the negative charge.

A similar visualisation can be used for gravitational fields: lines of force start and end at a mass. But with gravitational fields, the concept of direction gets a little confusing, so I'll try not to go any further.

One final thing: if I define a region S with an area AS, then the number of field lines that flow through S is equal to the electric or gravitational flux (flux=flow) through that region. The number of field lines per unit area is the flux density. Remember that we said that the density of the field lines is proportional to the strength of the field? Flux density is the same thing as field strength.

[edit] Vector fields

These days, we express electric, magnetic, and gravitational fields as vector fields. I'm sure your at least acquainted with vectors. They are mathematical constructs with magnitude and direction. One way of visualising vectors is to draw an arrow from the origin (at point (0,0,0)) to a point P(x0,y0,z0). That vector can be expressed in coordinate form as \langle x_0,y_0,z_0 \rangle. In a vector field, each point is assigned a vector, and each component of the vector is a function of its coordinates. So a vector at any point (x,y,z) will have coordinates \langle P(x,y,z),Q(x,y,z),R(x,y,z)\rangle where P, Q, and R are functions of the variables x, y, and z. I'm sorry if this is to mathy for your; but having some idea of what vector fields are is extremely useful in understanding some of the math. Go to the articles on electric field, vector field, and dipole; you can see some nice pictures of vector fields there. So, each kind of force field can be expressed as a vector function, magnetic fields are usually denoted by \mathbf{B} (magnetic flux density/magnetic field strength) and electric fields by \mathbf{E} (electric flux density/electric field strength). I will use \mathbf{G} to denote gravitational field strength. I use bold to denote vector quantities here; that is the difference between \mathbf{G} (gravitational field) and G (Newton's constant): the former is a vector, the latter is just a number (or scalar).

One final properties to remember about vectors: their magnitude. Remember how we said that a vector can be represented by an arrow drawn from the origin to a point P(x0,y0,z0)? The magnitude is equal to the length of that arrow, which, by the Pythagorean theorem, is \sqrt{{x_0}^2+{y_0}^2+{z_0}^2}. The magnitude of a vector is denoted by |\mathbf{a}|. Magnitude is a scalar quantity.

[edit] How fields act on charges and masses

At any given point in an electric field, the force that is caused by the field on a particle of charge q is given by the equation \mathbf{E}=\frac{\mathbf{F_E}}{q}. Likewise, a graviational field acts on a particle of mass m with the relation \mathbf{G}=\frac{\mathbf{F_G}}{m}.

This last equation is the one that I introduced you to way up at the top of this rant. By Newton's second law, every force is equivalent to a mass times the acceleration caused by the force. Thus, we can say that \mathbf{F_G}=m\mathbf{a_G}, where m is the mass of the object being acted upon by the field and \mathbf{a_G} is the acceleration caused by the force of gravity. Plugging the expression m\mathbf{a_G} into the equation for \mathbf{F_G}, we arrive with the relationship \mathbf{G}=\frac{m\mathbf{a_G}}{m}=\mathbf{a_G}.

Remember that at the earth's surface acceleration is approximately g (9.80665 m/s²). By definition, the magnitude of the acceleration due to gravity must always be g (g=|\mathbf{a_G}|). So we are left with the conclusion that the local gravitational flux density \mathbf{G} is the same thing as the local gravitational acceleration.

[edit] Conclusion

At this point, you're probably wondering why I said that the solution was so simple. Well, the solution really is very simple: I could have just told you that \mathbf{G}=\frac{\mathbf{F_G}}{m}=\frac{m\mathbf{g}}{m}=\mathbf{g}. Partly, I felt that if I just tossed the equation at you you wouldn't appreciate the beauty of the result; partly, I just love lecturing on my favourite physics topics. I did my best to make it easy to understand, but you have to realise that I've packed about two weeks of math and three weeks of Physics into a few paragraphs.

Now it's time for me to tell a story. At the end of my AP Physics class my senior year of high school, we had spent a lot of time talking about electric and magnetic fields, field lines, fluxes, flux densities/field strength, electric and magnetic forces, etc. I had known for a while that gravitation can be portrayed with the same kind of fields that electric and magnetic forces can. So I sat down and thought about the implications of this. I decided to calculate the field strength at the earth's surface, and realised, with a shock that it was g. All that crazy stuff about vectors, lines of force, fluxes and flux densities boild down to simple acceleration. It was like some brilliant piece of poetry or an essay.

There are stories about how Einstein, upon learning Maxwell's equations, was so excited by them that he would lurk in coffehouses and corner passerby to lecture them on Maxwell's equations. If you can get to the point where you understand Maxwell's equations, they have a kind of indescribable beauty, like your favourite song or favourite sonnet.

Anyway, sorry about the rant. Hope you enjoyed it. Karl Dickman talk 04:16, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Whoa

You are way too fast on the draw to revert. That is not Wikipedia friendly style, Jossi. You just reverted my edit on the Sant Mat page, asking for a secondary reliable source. That is not required by wikipedia, sources need to be reliable and verifiable, i.e., you can go and read it. Also, you definitely need to let people do their thing prior to reverting or even changing someone else's work in real time. That is called courtesy. Sevadar 02:06, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Check my last edit, I added a disambig link at the top of the page. Hope it addresses your concern. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:45, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
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