Talk:José Rizal

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Peer review José Rizal has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.
José Rizal has been selected for improvement to Featured Article level by the Filipino Wikipedia community. Please see Tambayan Philippines: Featured Articles for details on the project. Go to the Featured Article collaboration section below for discussion on improving José Rizal.

Contents

[edit] Some suggestions

I noticed the article is a bit cluttered and the organization is clunky. Facts are haphazardly thrown in and there is no clear timeline. There are various poorly-constructed and lengthy sentences like

However, contentious litigation followed the friars' attempts to raise tenant rental fees which the farmers, led by Rizal, disputed while exposing the non-payment of taxes due on friar land taken over by the Dominicans from the Jesuits after their expulsion. (under "Education")

and

This period of his education and his frenetic pursuit of life, including his recorded affections--Gertrude Becket of Chalcot Crescent, wealthy and high-minded Nelly Boustead of the English and Iberian merchant family, the idyllic romance with Usui Seiko--'The last descendant of a noble family, true to an unfortunate vengeance, you are beautiful..,'and his earlier friendships with Segunda Katigbak and his cousin, Leonor Rivera--have kindled abiding interest in his story. ("Writings")

Also I suggest limiting our adjectives guys, given that stories involving Rizal tend to be notoriously arguable. The least we can do is to make the article sound journalistic. Sentences like

The intended consequence of teaching the natives where they stood brought about the obverse reaction, as the Philippine Revolution of 1896 took off virulently thereafter. ("Writings")

could be improved by omitting words. No one likes to consult a dictionary every two sentences because of unnecessarily uncommon adjectives/adverbs (obverse is not even an adjective —- the poster meant adverse —- and this is exactly the point). Some sections sound like they're right off a soap opera; see for example the section "Persecutions". I think the anecdotes or stories in the article are best laid out as quotes from a credible source —- a published book, possibly, and not a website. Maybe we can append "it is claimed that" when citing webpage references?

Also, I think the appearance of phrases like "It seems" and "thus" and "can be said" do nothing but diminish the credibility of this article. I haven't even finished the article yet, but these flaws just jumped out at me as i was reading thru it. ……210.4.12.17 05:06, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] to 210.4.12.17

You are welcome to make editions to improve the article. You complain that the article is a "bit cluttered" and "clunky", therefore I wish you could make contributions to make it less so. Remember wikipedia is a colloboration of several editors so some sentences might be haphazardly thrown in by any one who wishes to do so. Some months back someone complained that it sounded like it came from a high-school textbook. Now that editors tried to improve the language of the article, we still have complaints. I don't think those adverbs/adjectives are "unnecessarily uncommon", as you put it. Those words are very commonly used by college students. If one wishes to read it in simple English, there's a simple English Wikepedia on Rizal. I agree that the timeline is a bit out of whack. The paragraph "Legacy" should come at the end, perhaps before the par "Controvresy". Anyone who wishes to help re-arrange this, is welcome.KaElin 19:04, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jose Rizal in simple English

Here's the link to the simple English version on Jose Rizal: [1]. KaElin 19:37, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nomination for Featured Article

I think the article is very well written (mostly contributions by Umbriago), and covers most aspect of his life. I don't know what else you need, guys. We should go ahead and nominate it for FA (Featured Article). It's better than most bios i've read about Rizal. KaElin 07:10, 27 September 2006 (UTC)9/26/02

         --Not so. I totally agree with Johnyang2, there should be a section dedicated to the 
         lovers in Rizal's life as most of his more famous writings were either dedicated to or 
         were inspired by them. And why is the section on his writings that small? I think it is a 
         mistake to simply summarize this section as it is through his pen that Rizal was able to 
         change the course of the lives of everyone around him, and everyone who has read and truly 
         understood his writings. Sandra5482 07:37, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

What do you think, guys? Should we remove

Please help improve this article or section by expanding it.
Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion.

?

[edit] more famous writings

  • His education
  • His works and achievements
  • Contreversy of his retraction papers
  • A bit more detail about his arrest and trail
  • Stuff that will make him more human

(",)Mang Kiko 07:55, 7 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Nice. I'd be happy to help but I'm a bit lazy to go through my PI 100 (Rizaliana) notes. :) --seav 08:37, Nov 7, 2003 (UTC)
Darn! And I thought you'll do all the work. :). I'd appreciate some help from everyone. (",)Mang Kiko 23:10, 7 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The story of Rizal's language proficiency is most likely apopcryphal...the most common figure is twenty-two, but I've heard figures up to fifty! Like many national heroes, Rizal has been so shrouded in myth and embellishment that it's difficult to separate fact from fiction. Biographies about Rizal coming out the Philippines are the most suspect, as most authors there seek to glorify him.

It seems that he is not proficient in Cebuano. In his footnote in de Morga's discussion on the Pintados' plundering habits in de las Islas Filipinas he says:
[303] Gûbat, grove, field, in Tagál. Mangubat (so printed in the text of Rizal's edition) signifies in Tagál "to go hunting, or to the wood," or even "to fight."--Rizal. [2]
If he had known Cebuano, or any other language of the Bisaya, I think he would have commented that "gubat" means war, or "guba" means destroyed, or "manguba" means to destroy, or to plunder, as Antonio de Morga says... Happy Rizal day!--Nino Gonzales 06:59, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I would suggest any "historians" contributing to this article place themselves under a more rigourous standard of establishing facts, rather than perpetuating urban legends of "St. Rizal." Given all the hagiographies surrounding this legendary figure, that is no small feat.

Good luck.

--HunanLaoWai

--- I reverted older brother to youger brother as the edit was made by an anon contributor whose IP address has been used for numerous misleading edits in recent months. Please verify. adamsan 12:26, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Ambeth Ocampo

I removed the following line from the end of the article, which had been inserted there by 203.177.18.204:

Rizal Historian Ambeth Ocampo

I'm not sure what was meant by inserting the line, but it seemed to be in the wrong place. If you inserted there, let's figure out what we're doing with it. :) --Jtalledo (talk) 01:48, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)


[edit] TRANSLATION INTO SPANISH

Anybody who Habla Espanyol out there? How do you translate Bachelor of Arts ? Babelfish.altavista translates as soltero de artes. ...I'm trying to translate the article.--Jondel 02:10, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"Bachillerato"? I put baccalaureate through an English-Spanish dictionary. → (AllanBz ✎) 04:34, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Right now at the interwiki link it's 'Bachiller en Artes' . --Jondel 04:57, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
I know the abbreviation is A.B> at the time of rizal, so it may be Artes Bachiller. Justox dizaola 06:50, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion

Please specify what areas to expand. Do we assume the themes in Work in progress in the section above(eg:Stuff that will make him more human , etc.. )?--Jondel 00:39, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Hmm...what about his loveydudes? Y'know, Segunda Katigbak, Leonor Rivera, Josephine Bracken...it might sound like gossip but it's still a point of interest. Whoever might be interested to write about it has to be careful not to sound too gossip-columnist-like, though. Dunong 18:17, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The surname Rizal

A claim was made by a Tagalog Wikipedia user that:

[José Rizal] was baptized JOSÉ RIZAL MERCADO at the Catholic church of Calamba by the parish priest Rev. Rufino Collantes with Rev. Pedro Casañas as the sponsor.

This clearly goes against what is written in this article, which goes:

The surname was again changed by José himself, from Mercado to "Rizal", after he received advice from his older brother, Paciano Mercado, to do so to avoid bringing the family into problems that he was embroiled in with the authorities.

So which version of the surname story is correct?

Why not both? Say he were born José Protacio Rizal Mercado y Alonso Realonda. As a boy he is called José Mercado, his surname. Now comes a time when his political activities become onerous and start affecting his family: so he takes his baptized middle name Rizal as his surname, rather than his father's surname. So there is no contradiction. → ( AllanBz ✎ ) 03:52, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
The true story goes like this. Jose Rizal was born Jose Mercado y Alonso. But Claveria ordered people to take surnames from the government, and they followed the order. Alonso became Realonda, and Mercado became Rizal. So his full name is Jose Protacio Mercado y Alonso y Realonda de Rizal. According to my history books. Justox dizaola 06:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pride of the Malay Race????, It should be called "Pride of the Filipino People"

To: AllanBz! and to all the anonomous contributers out there. How's it going!:). José Rizal, is a Filipino and it should be called "Pride of the Filipino People".:) The term "Malay" is very "mis-leading" because that term this days, is used to identify the peoples of Malyasia. cool!Thanx!:) -Gonzalo (UTC), 5:30 p.m. 1 August, 2005

While I don't see why Rizal can't be called both, Roman Ozaeta's translation of Palma's biography of Rizal was entitled Pride of the Malay Race, and as such is the common usage. Plus, "Malay" is more general. Plus, there really is no precedent in the real world for calling him that, so it's unencyclopedic. I have seen him called "The First Filipino," but I don't remember where. → ( AllanBz ✎ ) 03:32, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

If "Palma" said so, So be it!:), I like the Native name of the malay race!, it's cool!:) - Gonzalo(UTC) 2:30 p.m., 2 August 2005

Malaysians study Rizal and they consider Filipinos as their cousins of sorts. Malaysian leaders have idealized Rizal such that he is considered a role model for defying the West. Any learned Malaysian would be aware of Rizal's legacy - 7258 04:01, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I heard the same thing from a Malaysian. They are very conscious of ASEAN/Malay identity. It is a pity that they know about Rizal but us Filipinos, in general, don't know of Dr. Mahathir of Malaysia or Suharto of Indonesia.--Jondel 11:37, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I may be wrong, but the title "Pride of the Malay Race" was given to Rizal. It's an appellation, which was accorded during a time when Filipinos were very conscious of their having some Malay descent (Of course, Rizal's a Chinese mestizo...). Blame it on whoever gave the appellation. WikiPedia, however, will have to accept. Rmcsamson 12:09, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Since these appelations were coined by some historians and writers, I have a proposal: how about a separate (sub-)section for the appelations given to Jose Rizal? That way, we can identify which writer gave which appelation and, if necessary, place appropriate notes or disclaimers about these appelations. What do you think? Tito Pao 19:14, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jose Rizal's Profile

Jose Rizal is one of the best heroes in the Philippines. We even celebrate a day devoted to him personally. Jose is a polyglot. Which means a person who can talk 4 different foreign languages. In Rizal's case, he mastered 22-25 foreign languages. Rizal studied in Ateneo. When he was murdered, the whole Philippines was devastated. Jose is thought to have never realized that he would be still be killed even though he spent all his life helping our country, but he also realized that he would do this for our own good....

He knew this from the very beginning. He is not more navie than his friends and family. They know that he will be killed by the friars if he knew too much. He also knew that he will be killed obviously because he was imprisoned a number of times. Thereby, giving him time to conclude that by making a novel that express your ideas that may be wrongly accused to be religious error/blasphemy and revolution. He was warning the people. He was writing about events that if taken place will have a disastrous effect. That is why he did not like the idea of revolt the Katipunan insisted to do.

So, what are you trying to say, eh?

[edit] Rizal's execution picture

I've heard that picture is pretty controversial. Any ideas?Circa 1900 15:20, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Controversial meaning that it's debatable as to whether or not the picture is real or because it's controversial material pictured? If it's just the nature of the material, then it it still belongs in Wikipedia, since Wikipedia isn't censored. --Jtalledo (talk) 20:56, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
About the picture as real, perhaps it deserves a section of its own. Circa 1900 13:05, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ambeth Ocampo Again

Anyone here who has read some of Ambeth Ocampo's investigations of Rizal's life. I forgot the title of which he (Ocampo) wrote, but some of the things in his work are controversial, if not interesting. Most of the articles in that certain book discusses Rizal's fallibility, gullibility and his more human side; it even has controversies and some minute but interesting details about Rizal's life. I do not have the book with me, but I have some of the articles and I was thinking whether these rumors and interesting articles have some space here in wikipedia. One article there discusses the manuscript of his unfinished work Makamisa, and, well I think it is a tad important. I'd be glad to help write them down.

Not very many Filipinos know a lot about Rizal. --Windspinner 09:40, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Ambeth Ocampo may be a controversial figure, but I think his work is well-researched and credible. I have the book Rizal Without the Overcoat, and yes, there are lots of material that could be useful in there. But some historians think Ocampo's popularization of history emphasized trivialities.

This page really needs editing, guys! So far, the facts sound like they came from one source, and the article looks like highschool textbook material. We need more depth, more insight! I think our National Hero deserves more than this. Dunong 18:33, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

FYI: The books are titled Rizal Without the Overcoat and Makamisa: In Search of a Novel. I have Overcoat in my personal library (and read it about ten times), while I borrowed Makamisa from my cousin's collection. The novel Makamisa was mentioned in Overcoat, but subsequent research prompted Mr. Ocampo to write a separate book.
About the writer...not that I totally agree with Ambeth Ocampo (in particular, with some of his opinions), but it helps to know that he has had access to archives and libraries in the Philippines and in Europe (especially in Spain). Many people doubt the veracity of his article collections in Overcoat, but Ambeth Ocampo includes a bilbiography at the book's end; it includes the standard Rizaliana and a lot more references. He has also viewed the original manuscript for the Noli Me Tangere and the El Filibusterismo (which are stored at the vaults of the National Library and, for security reasons, cannot be accessed without the permission of the National Library's director); so if Ocampo, say, made some references to particular erasures in the manuscript, he know what he's saying. Some people think Ambeth Ocampo is inventing some tsismis about Rizal when, in fact, he based these on primary resources.
Also, Makamisa won an award for it's unprecedented scholarly research---in particular, in his painstaking reconstruction of the unfinished novel, which is peppered with annotations. (If my memory serves me correctly, the award was the National Book Critics Award, and it was awarded in 1997 or 1998 [I might need to borrow my cousin's copy again]]). --- Tito Pao 19:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I think Umbriago made a huge contribution to the article. His edits and additional remarks made the article one of the best so far. KaElin 06:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Featured Article collaboration

Ok, this is exciting! How do we start? :D Would it help to get input (via email) from arch-enemies Ambeth Ocampo and Jose Arcilla?

I think it would be best to start with an outline. Once you fix the outline, you can farm out the rest and then seek the sources. --seav 12:17, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rizal's Ladies

It is surprising the "juicy" part of Rizal's life on his Casanova-esque romances with ladies has not been discussed. I hope somebody will add a good discussion on this one. - Johnyang2

[edit] Outline

I'm basing this off Fr. Arcilla's standard history textbook. Some parts are probably unnecessary and some parts lacking, but I expect that we can sort this out soon. :)

Jose Rizal

  • Family
    • Mother
    • Father
    • Paciano
    • other siblings
  • Childhood
    • Injustice to:
      • Mother (Teodora Alonso)
      • Paciano
      • Jose Burgos
  • Education
    • Ateneo
    • UST
  • Voyage to Europe (should this fall under Education?)
    • Experience with the liberal Filipinos and teachers (Jaena, Morayta...)
  • France
    • Blumentritt
    • Noli
  • Return to Europe
    • Problems in Calamba (ejection of family)
    • El Fili
  • Hong Kong
  • Manila
    • La Liga Filipina/KKK
  • Dapitan
  • Cuban revolution
  • Cavite
  • Last days and Death
  • Legacy
    • Writings
Good luck and best wishes with improvement to Featured Article level :) Imacomp 19:24, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rizal, originally Ricial

I would like more sources, links on the origin of the name to make corrections in the Latin version. Ricial doesn't seem to appear in any Spanish or Latin dictionary.Thank you.--Jondel 08:50, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Found this at rae:ricial. (De ricio). 1. adj. Se dice de la tierra en que, después de cortado el trigo en verde, vuelve a nacer o retoñar. 2. adj. Se dice de la tierra sembrada de verde para que se lo coma el ganado.


[edit] year of graduation in Madrid

What year did he graduate with a degree in medicine?--Jondel 02:03, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jose Rizal statue in Heidelberg

Should this be mentioned? Doberdog 11:03, 11 April 2006 (UTC)doberdog

ITA VERO(It should)!--Jondel 01:40, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Masonic Sources

I've added two American masonic sources, which may be an interesting area for new information on Rizal - particularly on his Masonic influences which are not discussed at the moment in this article.

One area that you may wish to consider would be whether his Freemasonry had any influence on his perceived anti-clericalism and pro-Americanism?

JASpencer 07:49, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

No it did not. Imacomp 13:20, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Removal of information by Imacomp can be seen here.
You'll also be able to see the sources there as well.
JASpencer 13:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

JASpencer, only you would want to know. Keep wako out of Wiki. Imacomp 13:36, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

What's whacko the Scottish Rite Journal or the Builder Magazine? JASpencer 13:43, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

Kamusta po.

The first paragraph on this article seems iffy. I don't deny that Rizal was a poet,or an eye surgeon and certainly a polyglot, but to have a laundry list of economist, architect,........seems a little dubious. If rizal had theorized about how economics should work, that wouldn't automatically make him an economist. Likewise If he drew a plan for a house it doesn't make him an automatic architect. I think we need to qualify a few things for an article. 1. Set a criteria of what specifically constitutes an architect, or an economist. 2. Find historical evidence that rizal met those criterias.

How about if we say amateur? amateur economist, amateur architect, etc.?--Jondel 02:28, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Blame it on Gregorio Zaide. IMO, his book started the trend of "Rizal the Architect, the Economist, etc. etc.". I don't find this kind of trivializing in Guerrero's book (although, given the circumstances, Guerrero's book also has a different slant of its own...it was originally entered in a national competition for biography-writing on Rizal). In addition, despite what other people say about him, Ambeth Ocampo himself has misgivings about this treatment of Rizal (Ocampo makes this clear in his preface to Rizal Without the Overcoat) --- Tito Pao 20:16, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it is very awkward how the introductory section was edited such that other supposed "titles" of Rizal read as amateur this and amateur that. Unless somebody finds something that would rightly prove Rizal had achieved such titles, I suggest not to place them in the article at all, especially not with the "amateur" prefix. --Sandra5482 07:27, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

No need to emphasize that Rizal is an "eye surgeon" and "an intellectual" in the first paragraph since it is already described in the succeeding paragraphs, especially paragraph 3. - 7258

[edit] Courage

"Courage" is hardly NPOV. The argument could be made that while Rizal was a reformer, he was essentially a Spanish loyalist, an accidental martyr more due to his personal pride rather than any sense of nationalism. See Nick Joaquin's "A Question of Heroes." ZoneSeek 04:45, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Well I guess that is a matter of opinion, Zone. But you can't deny it was his literary work (Noli, Fili, etc) and his MARTYRDOM that inspired the revolution led by Bonifacio which subsequently led to the Spanish colonialists washing their hands off us and handing us over to the Americans. Rizal was for reforms, which he hoped would ultimately lead to the end of colonialization. He could not just inspire an armed revolution because he knew we indios were incapable of it. He foresaw things. He was a visionary. He had much more common sense than Bonifacio and Aguinaldo who failed in their attempts. He was no accidental martyr. He went willingly to the slaughter house. Nick Joaquin was wrong. More than a century after his death, Filipinos would have realized by now whether he deserved to the national hero or not.KaElin 23:33, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Japanese blood?

I probably missed out on my Rizal class, but this I never learned that Rizal had a drop of Japanese blood in his veins. Any references for this? Thanks!

  • I think this was mentioned in Gregorio Zaide's biography. (I'll need to double-check this, though) --- Tito Pao 11:28, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Without Rizal

If it wasn;t for his literary masterpiece, The Spanish-American war would have more international involvement than the Spanish Civil War. Turthfully a Kaiser made a letter to help Spain save their colonies from America

[edit] Moved Page

I've edited the redirects so that when people type in "Rizal", they'll be directed to this page, not the province. This is because in the Philippines, when Filipinos (especially students in all levels) hear the word "Rizal", the first thing that always comes to their mind is the national hero, not the province near Manila. Also, foreigners may want to know more about Jose Rizal, so it's best to have the word "Rizal" redirect to Rizal's biography.

(Sorry if I made some mistakes along the way, this is the first time I've moved pages and edited redirects; please let me know if I made more mistakes and I'll be happy to learn from you :) --- Tito Pao 11:28, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted the move. Washington does not redirect to George Washington but instead to the actual state of Washington itself while there is a disambiguation notice for Washington, D.C.. It's most preferable to have the names of provinces by themselves (without the (province) suffix) as reasonable as possible. There is a redirect to José Rizal anyway on the Rizal page. Thanks. --Chris S. 18:33, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Noted. Thanks for the clarification :) --- Tito Pao 18:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPoV

_ _ I tagged the article {{POV}}, and User:KaElin [removed that http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jos%C3%A9_Rizal&oldid=80282115] saying

delete {{POV}} if there's conflicting opinion place it w/par or sentence, not the whole article

and said on my talk page in part "Which part of the article? If someone is questioning a sentence or paragraph, he/she should tag it with" {{fact}}.
_ _ Tag or not, the article as a whole is infected with PoV. The overwhelming bulk of the lead 'graph is emblematic of this: Beyond his name and vital stats it has 96 words.

In the first sentence, 29% of the 96 are devoted exclusively with poetic titles, each PoV, applied to him.
The next 8% calls him, as if it were a fact, (emphasis added)
the national hero of the Philippines.
47% is a sentence purporting as fact his "intelligence", "his passion as a patriot", and "the centrality of national identity as a social force in the project of nation-building ".
"Intelligence" is a PoV term: applied according to individual PoV to various subjective qualities, and to objective ones whose appropriateness as respective claims to constituting "real" intelligence is a matter of PoV.
"Passion" can only be inferred by various PoV standards, and the circumstances where it occurs support only (PoV) guesses at whether its objects are, for instance, "patriotism", greed, or megalomania.
What is "central" in "the project of nation-building" and in fact what a "nation" is and in what senses one can be "built" are all matters of vigorous debate, despite the author's implicit PoV that the Phillipine "nation" has the answers to those questions.
The final 16% is a presumably clearly verifiable statement by Benedict Anderson, a Marxist commentator. His New York Times Google hits are less than 1/30 of those of Richard Hofstadter (another commentator on nations that i have heard of before, and happen to have been reading about today), yet it was BA that the PoV of the article deemed to merit attention in the first 'graph.

_ _ If Phillipine nationals and/or ethnic Filipinos are hysterical, as the writer is, about JR's qualities, the statement that it is hysteria or enthusiasm or obsession is PoV, but paralleled by specific facts which should be stated at some point in the article -- facts that can be measured, probably by relative book sales and opinion polling. And the existence of the epithets will supplement those facts. But if the lead 'graph of this article were close to NPoV, it would still be improved by inserting, between the vital fact and the epithets,

... did nothing notable. Nevertheless, he is ...

I don't suggest that that would be improvement for his bio. But the emphasis of the lead graph, and the failure of the lead section to get down to specifics, are the highlights of a PoV problem infecting the article as a whole: the choices of what to say in the the lead sent and the lead 'graph reflect a PoV about what is significant, and the article is written as an expression of a PoV. There is a lot of undoubtedly valuable material in it, but it needs ruthless restatement, re-ordering, and selection in order to comply with WP:NPoV.
_ _ On reflection, i am restoring the PoV tag. The problem is article-wide; i think the use of the tag article-wide is more the rule than the exception, and even if it has shortcomings, it will be useful in bringing the attention of those qualified to fix it. Those who aren't, from inability to see at a glance that it has a global PoV problem, should defer to them, rather than flaunting that difference.
--Jerzy•t 03:20, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

_ _ If the Admin thinks the article is infected and hopelessly beyond repair, the whole article should be deleted. To replace sentences just to remove PoV, which text are prone to be, like labeling the effort which had veered too much into PoV, like "hysteria" which I believe is PoV, is likely to reduce it to mere statements of facts, more like number of homeruns hit, batting average lifetime, etc.
_ _ How accurately percentages were figured out by him is still beyond me, maybe he should expound on his formula more. There could be degrees of "accomplishment" so people who may have achieved something centuries back could be ranked with modern-day achievers, etc. There seems to be a lot more that should be said on this matter. Thanks. EAP
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.81.181.98 (talk • contribs) 21:49, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
_ _ Presumably "the admin" refers to me, tho i have not used any admin capability in connection with this article -- nor does it seem reasonable to anticipate my doing so. Yeah, it's an indication that i've hung around here editing for a while, and presumably learned a thing or two, but please remember that the "coat of arms" of the admins has a bucket and mop, and not even a bundle of sticks, let alone a carnivorous beast. Don't let me scare you! (Unless you and maybe a friend or two plan to ignore everyone else and resist every effort to solve problems.)
_ _ The numbers i cited were not intended to be examined closely. IIRC, MS Word reported something like 98 words total, which means 49 words is 50% and 24 or 25 is 25%; my math (done more by feel than by formal calculations) was implicitly describing the relative sizes of paragraphs, and intended to be as much impressionistic as scientific.
_ _ "Infected", IMO, but not "hopelessly beyond repair" -- and in retrospect, i see that i was playing too rough in throwing around "if ... Filipinos are hysterical", especially in speaking as a Euro-descended Yank about an East-Asian country that i used to think of as Hispanic. It is a very rare article that is so inherantly PoV as to deserve deletion, nor do i even think that this one should be reduced to an NPoV stub. There are a lot of presumably verifiable facts implicit in the article, and what is needed is not to cut out "X" but to change it to something along the general lines of "most Filipinos believe X".
--Jerzy•t 19:21, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
_ _ Jerzy, Rizal is the national hero of the Philippines. He was declared, confirmed, attested by a law (or Act) passed by your countrymen (if you're an American). I will get back to you on which Act it was. A province, many streets, many towns, many schools, a university and a national monument were erected and named after him. A Rizal Law was passed that made the reading of his literary work a requirement in high school and college. Rizal Day (December 31?, I've been out of the country 24 years) is celebrated as a national non-working holiday. The only other Filipino, I think, honored thus (with a national non-working holiday) is Benigno Aquino. Rizal is accepted, acknowledged, recognized by an overwhelming majority of Filipinos as the national hero. Of course, there are some who challenge this. We will try to change, esp. the first paragraph, to present a Neutral Point of View (NPOV) altho a difficult task because most writers/historians accounts are hagiographic, and, as you put it, tend to veer too much into "hysteria."
_ _ Although it is one writer (Umbriago) that dominates the article, it is in fact a joint effort of many. But you are probably right that we should include a dissenting view of Rizal being the premier hero, or question his status as such. There are a few books that hold this contention --"Rizal without the Overcoat" by Ocampo, books by Nick Joaquin and by Renato Constantino, altho I can't get hold of them.
_ _ Jerzy, you mentioned Benedict Anderson as having only 1/30th google hits compared to Hofstadter. Anderson, Maoist or not, is a recognized expert on Southeast Asian politics/culture (specifically, Indonesia) while Hofstadter, I think, do not write about Southeast Asia, if ever, and never about the little impoverished country called the Philippines. We (specifically Umbriago) have to quote at least one non-Filipino to write "hysterically" (as you put it) about Rizal. A foreigner writing about Rizal makes it more believable, right?
_ _ We will try to make editions to present a less biased POV. I will try to do some and invite all the other contributors to do so also. Thanks.
KaElin 15:01, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
_ _ Tho i'd not heard of Rizal before, i recall the martyred Aquino, and noting the similar rare holiday status between him and Rizal is a valuable fact for the article. (But keep in mind that "martyr" is PoV; my considering him a martyr for purposes of this talk page is not a endorsement of calling him one in the article, as opposed to saying he is called one.) Likewise, Congressional endorsement (probably, BTW, in a resolution, or in the ineffective preamble of a law, rather than as a matter of making law) of "national hero" status by a legislature (a foreign colonial one at that!), or the Pope, doesn't make heroism or martyrdom a fact: hierarchs and parliaments can only justify confering such statuses by using "hero", "martyr", and so on in special PoV senses, or by speaking only for the attention of those whose PoV includes slavish endorsement of their authority to change reality with a few words.
_ _ I do think foreign and mainstream historians have much less presumption of bias to overcome than those with ethnic ties or revolutionary PoVs, tho i wouldn't choose the wording "more believable". My citation of Hofstadter's ideas (i think the lk works permanently w/o registration) really reflected my awareness from that review of the "Intellectual Bio" on him, and IIRC his challenging some ideas of what makes the US a "nation". I'm pretty sure what makes nations remains a matter of PoV, while IMO the article presumes as a fact one account of how nationhood is established.
--Jerzy•t 19:21, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] jose rizal

is it rizal guilty in the revolution why he was a hero?

I betcha the British will punish George Washington if they've won. ;) --Howard the Duck 13:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
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