Talk:John Shelby Spong

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Portal:Biography
 Biography Portal
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article. [FAQ]
WikiProject Anglicanism This article is part of WikiProject Anglicanism, an attempt to better organize information in articles related to Anglicanism and the Anglican Communion. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.

Point of clarification: "Drawing salary". Bishop Spong is retired - is he drawing a salary or a pension?

I've no idea. It could be plain wrong (which from what I've seen of some of his critics wouldn't surprise me), could be outdated, or could be referring to a pension, seeing as he works at a university these days. Ambi 13:56, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Hmmm... the ignorance here is that as a retired Anglican bishop he will continue to collect a salary. - Ta bu shi da yu 14:22, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
T, I don't know to what "ignorance" you're referring, but the article states that he's drawing a "salary". In the US, retirees typically don't draw a salary, they draw a pension (there is, in fact, an organization by the name of "Episcopal Pension Group"). That's the minor point I'm attempting to clarify.Daniel Luechtefeld 16:19, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Category: Heretics

The intro to this category reads, "In theology, heresy is the holding of a belief that is in fundamental disagreement with the established teachings or doctrines of an organized religion. This category covers people known for their supposed heresy." As Spong believes that Christianity's fundamental doctrines need to be reformulated, and his beliefs are of course published and relatively well known, he seems to fit the category very neatly. Hence, I'm restoring that category. Wesley 04:15, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

It is a blatantly biased label in this context. If you want to add it to the article with a proper source, by all means do so, but I'm removing the addition of the category, which suggests established fact. Ambi 05:54, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Considering that he openly disagrees with the established teachings of his religion, starting with theism, and is calling on Christians to change their traditional doctrinal stances, it exactly fits the definition of the category, within this context. All I'm doing here is comparing what the article says about him with the category's description. Are either the article or category description in error or misleading in some way? Or, am I misunderstanding one or the other of them? Wesley 16:07, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
"Heresy" is indeed a very loaded term, outside the bounds of NPOV. "Criticisms" is sufficient as a categorization, and within "Criticisms" you can elaborate on the subject by stating something to the effect that "Spong's views are viewed as heretical by....". Daniel Luechtefeld 18:43, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
So your objection is based on the emotional associations with the word "Heresy" and not based on the description of the category or of Mr. Spong. Perhaps a more objective reason is that the Episcopal Church has a process for identifying heretics in place, and have not as yet employed that process to officially identify him as one. On that basis I'll agree to leave the category label off for now, and instead add some more representative criticisms. Wesley 16:50, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Wesley, I appreciate your compromise on this matter but your response says a lot. In my experience, Spong's views concerning Biblical literalism and the place of homosexuals in the Communion are maintained by a large plurality if not outright majority of North American Anglicans. If you wish to hang the banner of heresy somewhere may I suggest one of the other Anglican-related entries; an entry more specifically focused on the broader context of tension between the orthodox and reform wings of the Communion.Daniel Luechtefeld 03:55, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Do North American Anglicans generally reject theism in favor of panentheism? Are they no longer part of the world wide communion of Anglicans, making it appropriate to ignore that larger context? Mind you, I didn't initially apply that category to this article, I'm just trying to learn exactly why it was removed once someone added it. Wesley 04:20, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Wesley, labeling a whole section simply as "Heresy" is to endorse a certain view. "Heresy" is NOT a neutral term - it carries nearly the same connotation as "Fraud". Why do you find the category label "Criticism" insufficient? Charges of heresy by Spong's critics can be discussed comprehensively within this much less contentious term. Daniel Luechtefeld 16:36, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Agreed, however I really feel that the battle would be best spent on other endeavours. For the record: Spong denied the divinity of Christ, therefore I personally consider him a heretic. However, no current theologian or Christian leader will get in to that category (no matter what they do or say) because of their supporters and because of misinformed outsiders - Ta bu shi da yu 14:03, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Just for clarity, the edit being discussed was not whether to change the section title "Criticisms", but whether to add a 'Category: Heretics' tag to place the article in the 'Heretics' category. As above, I've agreed to leave this category off, but mainly because Spong has not been tried and convicted of heresy in the Anglican church, according to their formal procedures. "Heresy" and "Fraud" do carry some emotional connotations, but they also have specific meanings and definitions, and there should be no reason not to use such terms where it is appropriate and warranted. Daniel, I hope I can conclude from your answer that most Anglicans, even in North America, are still theists, and that most are still in communion with Anglicans around the world. (And TBSDY, you're quite right. Some people have been called heretics for disagreeing with just one or two words in an established creed; it seems to me that Spong has managed to set himself in opposition to most of the words in most of the older creeds I can think of. And it seems that he would not disagree at all with that assessment.) Wesley 17:00, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Heresy is a bit of an ahistoric category when discussing most modern churches. I think most believers who have done some thinking on theology will conclude that no one is completely "orthodox" and thus all are in some way heretics - i.e., won't be "totally accurate in every point of belief" until all is revealed. And "heretic" is also not a category in Scripture so has fallen by the wayside. A more relevant notion for today is that of "apostasy", which is scriptural, and far more serious than heresy - this is when someone claiming to represent Christian doctrine (some kind of Church teacher of authority) misrepresents Christ's teachings. The Biblical advice regarding dealing with such people isn't torturing them or burning them, but more along the lines of "not having dinner with them," & not having them in the congregation, i.e., excommunicating them. Had churches held themselves to scriptures - reading the full context, as living documents, instead of plucking out bits that were most useful - the aweful persecutions of heretics would not have occurred.

As for excommunication, then, the most "serious & aweful" instrument for dealing with individuals by the institutional ECUSA: The only known excommunication in the ECUSA in the last fifteen or so years was of Lewis Green, on May 30, 2000, who was angry that gay people were administering the eucharist, and expressed himself in a very inappropriate manner. But this then wasn't for apostasy, but rather "disrespect" - the excommunication was done on the grounds of disrespect for the eucharist, but it seems the real issue motivating both parties was Green's disrespect for having gay people administer the eucharist. Sources: http://www.beliefnet.com/story/28/story_2819_1.html , http://listserv.episcopalian.org/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0008a&L=virtuosity&H=1&P=1386 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.241.39.117 (talk • contribs) .

Heresy is not an ahistoric category when discussing the Episcopal Church. Around 1999 or 2000, that church formally tried William Richter for heresy, with Spong defending him. He was found not guilty. Since it has a formal and specific meaning within the Episcopal Church, in which Spong is a bishop, that seems to be the most applicable, neutral way of determining whether it applies to him. By that standard it does not, which is why the article does not call Spong a heretic, or categorize himself. I think we agree that the article as it is now is appropriate in this respect, do we not? If a reasonably noteworthy source has called him one in a relevant, published forum, that might be worth including under the "Criticism" section. Is there anything else you would suggest changing in the article? Wesley 17:10, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Does anyone else find some of the titles of Spong's books somewhat ridiculous?

  • Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism: A Bishop Rethinks the Meaning of Scripture
  • Why Christianity Must Change or Die: A Bishop Speaks to Believers In Exile
  • Here I Stand: My Struggle for a Christianity of Integrity, Love and Equality
  • A New Christianity for a New World: Why Traditional Faith Is Dying and How a New Faith Is Being Born

Honestly, Evangelical Christianity (which has roots in Fundamentalism — that's a loaded term but in it's original form is not as bad as people think it is) is not dying, and in fact seems to be growing stronger. And though mistakes have been made, Spong's "struggle" for a Christianity of Integrity, Love and Equality is quite mistaken: I believe these things are already here. - Ta bu shi da yu 14:01, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

T, "Evangelical" here refers specifally to an influential and very wealthy group of US Protestants.Daniel Luechtefeld 16:24, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Another trend is that in the US at least, many Episcopalians have been transferring to the Roman Catholic Church or to the Orthodox Church (Antiochian, OCA, etc.). So the trend towards liberalism in the Episcopalian church is happening at least partly because its more traditional members are leaving for more traditional churches, while their own continues to self destruct. Every few years the Episcopalians do something new to outrage their traditional members, and another wave of them join the Catholic and Orthodox churches instead. But I'm not sure how this helps with the article itself. Wesley 17:12, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Well, society's backward and ignorant have to have a place to express themselves; I guess the Episcopalian churches just don't want to be that place. Ambi 17:19, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Folks, this is getting kind of nasty. I know that Bishop Spong illicits strong opinions from many people, but I don't think this is the appropriate place to express them. Thank you. Rockhopper10r 17:23, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Comment

Spong writes:

Martin Luther ignited the Reformation of the 16th century by nailing to the door of the church in Wittenberg in 1517 the 95 Theses that he wished to debate. I will publish this challenge to Christianity in The Voice. I will post my theses on the Internet and send copies with invitations to debate them to the recognized Christian leaders of the world. My theses are far smaller in number than were those of Martin Luther, but they are far more threatening theologically.

However, Luther didn't want to change the church initially. He had no intention of starting a new Protestant church, and it was only circumstances outside of his control (I think divine, but that's my opinion) that forced him to go up against the might of the Roman Catholic church. Spong, however, is far different. His goal is to fundamentally change the face of the church. In this he is different from Luther, who's goal was only ever to clarify matters of doctrine. For Spong to compare himself to Martin Luther is the height of arrogance and self-deception. - Ta bu shi da yu 14:15, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Resume

Spong's resume can be found here. Might be worthwhile updating it. - Ta bu shi da yu 14:18, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Falwell

I'm removing this mini-section for two reasons: 1) his words on Falwell not an important part or aspect of Spon's words, writings, or work; and 2) the statement about supporting Israel's policies regarding Palestinians runs counter to his writings (e.g. http://www.dioceseofnewark.org/97bpadd.html ) and I cound find no support for or reference to such a position anywhere. BCorr|Брайен 01:30, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Added a link to the Virginia Senator, William Spong. I'm actually related to them both and a search for spong is automatically redirected for the bishop. If someone would like to ass a disambiguation page for "spong" they might want to, for I don't know how. ~Shploo

I've removed it again. We only disambiguate at the top of the page where people share the same whole name. This isn't the case here. Ambi 05:00, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
My mistake. Still a newbie at this. Shploo 15:22, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

Question: Can anyone prove claimed Antagonisim toward Palestine from his writings? I have read some of his work (including Here I Stand, and Gospels from jewish eyes) and found nothing along those lines.202.150.112.126 11:25, 11 October 2006 (UTC)Gabrielle


I know nothing about Spong other than what I see in this article, but I'm removing some passages which seem blatantly POV:

  • Spong is the bestselling and, arguably, most visible liberal theologian of recent times, though some liberal Christians would be uncomfortable in being classified with the same terminology and would prefer to think of Spong as considerably beyond "liberal" -- radical, perhaps.
  • Others are troubled by a lack of intellectual rigour in his thinking.

Also, would someone please change the "Spong, 1991" and "Spong, 1994" references to proper ref links? I don't know exactly what writings they refer to. - Brian Kendig 17:42, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Good catch. :) Rebecca 11:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. :) I have a few more comments on this article, but as I don't know anything else about the man, I don't feel comfortable making these edits myself:

  • The "New Reformation" section - is "New Reformation" a proper noun, is it the title of his movement? Or should it be capitalized as "new reformation", or is it a term coined for this article?
  • The list of twelve beliefs - is there really a need to list them here in this article? I think it would be better to simply link to the web page where he presents them, but I couldn't find that page.
  • In the "Criticisms" section, could someone please replace Many of Spong's critics... and Critics also argue... and Spong is also criticised... and similar weasel words with verifiable references of actual people quoted as saying these things?

- Brian Kendig 15:52, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

"New Reformation" is a term coined by Spong, as best I can tell, to describe the movement he wants to see. At this link, it's capitalized in the title, but later in the essay he uses "new Reformation." His home page links to the essay as "A Call for a New Reformation." That page also lists the twelve beliefs, along with his intent to publish them elsewhere. I'm sure I've seen them elsewhere. As the article isn't terribly long, and they represent the core of his argument as best I can tell, it seems both fitting and helpful to include them here as a concise summary. I'll see about cleaning up some of the weasel words, using the critical links already present in the External Links section. Wesley 16:19, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Wesley that the 12 Points are important to understanding Spong. I came to this page specifically to find out the basic premises of Spong's theology (essentially what makes him tick and what all the fuss is about) and the list was the most helpful part of the page to that end. 128.158.14.42 16:29, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh, the "Spong, 1991" and "Spong, 1994" references probably correspond to the books he wrote in those years, which are listed in the "published books" section. Looks clear enough to me. (shrug) Wesley 16:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../j/o/h/Talk%7EJohn_Shelby_Spong_7594.html"