Talk:John Locke

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John Locke is a former good article candidate. There are suggestions below for which areas need improvement to satisfy the good article criteria. Once the objections are addressed, the article can be renominated as a good article. If you disagree with the objections, you can seek a review.

Date of review: 21 October 2006

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[edit] More Vandalism

the answers.com wikipedia entry has John Locke's father listed as 'Doushe Bag'. Please change that if you are able to, thank you.

[edit] What did Locke say?

In Chapter xxvii of book II Locke discusses personal identity, and the idea of a person. What he says here has shaped our thought and provoked debate ever since. there is no such thing as John Locke

For god's sake man, what did Locke say! You just leave me hanging like that. ==Modifications==

Hello, I'm thinking of adding and modifying a few things, like changing Locke's status as an Enlightenment to a 17th century philosopher and expanding and clarifying the parts about the Essay. 5 Nov 2004

there needs to be mention here of his view on the social contract. Kingturtle 18:32, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I wonder whether mentioining that hew was much influenced by Polish brethren thoughts (he had their works in his library) szopen

They need to mention the Earl of Shaftesbury.

User:david

There is now a link to Lord Shaftesbury's page. --Publunch 11:16, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Some flaws

There needs to be a more detailed discussion of his philosophy, especially his _Essay Concerning Human Understanding_ and the _Two Treatises of Civil Government_, although perhaps not to the point of making separate entries redundant. The social and political context in which Locke worked would also be valuable. He was raised by Puritans and associated himself with a number of political subversives (and participated in the Rye House Plot). The discussion of Locke vis-a-vis the American Revolution seems a bit POV, and reminds me of the assertions made by Lyndon LaRouche and his followers. It may be that Locke's views, viewed in toto, were not a perfect match for the ideology of the American Revolution, but to say that they exercized no influence is false. Jefferson himself declared that the Declaration of Independence was "all Locke."

The article doesn't say that Locke's views "exercized no influence" on the American revolution, but that he was not "an important intellectual influence" on it. Of course, it partly depends on how you define "important". Jefferson was the most intellectual of the "revolutionaries"; I would be surprised if Locke made much of an impression on Patrick Henry for example. (But this is probably a matter for people who know American history better than 18th century philosophy.) That sentence definitely needs to be fixed however, since you can be opposed to some movement even if you are at the same time an influence on it.

I apologize for overstating the case, but Locke's influence on Jefferson certainly had consequences that, perhaps mistakenly, I view as important. Locke's philosophy was by no means the exclusive influence; Bernard Bailyn's _Ideological Origins of the American Revolution_ certainly illustrates the varied motivations for seeking independence. As for Locke's 'opposition' to the American Revolution, I must admit to some misgivings for the reason that Locke lived and wrote in a separate context from that of the revolutionaries. We might speculate that he would have opposed the Revolution, but since he died 71 years before the outbreak of hostilities we can only evaluate his views in their context. Although most colonists in 1704 would have bristled at an authoritarian imperial policy (if the experience in New England is any indication), independence was not high on their list of concerns. It should also be noted that the American Revolution happened after liberal values had over 70 years to flourish (and perhaps diverge from Locke's vision) in the mother country.

Why don't you modify the Locke article along these lines? No one seems to be doing much work on it at the moment, and I think your familiarity with Bailyn's book qualifies you to do it. (I bought the book but never read it...) You might even consider writing a paragraph about whether Locke would have supported the American revolution. (I would guess he would have, given that to the best of my memory Burke, the "father of conservatism" who reacted against Locke's liberalism, supported it. But given the time difference of almost a century which you point out, the question might not be one that makes much sense.) I'm new to wikipedia, but I think it thrives on people with developed views on a subject putting their thoughts down in articles. -- Hyperion 05:07, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I agree absolutely that Shaftesbury's influence on Locke should be noted. There would have been no Locke as we know him without Shaftesbury.

Hyperion 20:58, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thomas Jefferson's Declaration of Independence is almost identical to John Locke's writing in terms of its philosophy on the government. John Locke is not only important but essential, although he himself did not have much interests in colonies.

Well, de optimo senatore :) Jefferson (i've heard) hda this book. Goslicki's opinions on government were once banned in England, but had many editions. Could Locke just quote Goslicki as well as Jefferson? What were phrases in Declaration of Independence you are referring to?

Some of the quotes from the Goslicki's book: "..The public happiness of the community lies in the private happiness of individual subjects…" " All citizens are born equal and have equal rights". "Kings are created not for themselves but for the good of their subjects". "… sometimes, a nation frustrated by tyranny and excessive powers of its king, takes upon itself the undoubted right to fight for its freedoms, and either by conspiracy or in an open struggle to shake off the yoke and to take the helm of government in its own hands…" Szopen 09:04, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

The phrase 'British empiricist' is used, if I click on it, I get redirected to 'empiricism'. I prefer 'english empiricist' to 'British empiricist', where 'english' is the language that these people used. Berkeley was Irish, and Hume and Reid were Scottish. Maybe just 'empiricist' is best, because Scots don't like being called English and Irish people don't like being called British. --Publunch 18:49, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I've started to put some more content in, but I am all too aware that this entry is still inadequate. I know a bit about the Essay, but need an historian and a political philosopher to write about his life and about the Two Treatises. Maybe I'll do some reading and then see if I can precis what I have found out. --Publunch 11:58, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Probably won't do much more to this page now, not because it is perfect, but because I've got as far as I can get and I've got other things to see to.--Publunch 11:16, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

are all of the links necessary? law, america, etc...

Just to point out, it's tabula rosa not tabula rasa

No, rasa is correct. Rasa means blank, as in a blank slate; rosa means pedestal or table, as in under the table: a secret arrangement.

Yes, "rosa" is incorrect, but not for the reasons stated. "Rosa" means "rose" (ie, the flower); "tabula" is from where our English word "table" derives ("tabula," meaning "board," "plank," or "slate"). "Tabula Rasa" is "Slate + Scraped" (ie, a blank or clean slate). "Tabula Rosa" would mean "Slate Rose." Scottclemens

[edit] The social history of John Locke's Family

Recently i review a somewhat "sketchie" genealogy of the English/American FISKE family, of which it is suggested John's mother was a Fiske. The details of the period in which he grew up must have had a great influence on his later writtings. What is known about his pedegree and youth?

A discussion of Locke's Constitution of the Carolinas is entirely missing, and would help flesh out how Locke actually applied his ideas. Also, his justifications for Native American genocide should be mentioned. AaronSw 03:52, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This needs some serious work. the epitaph part is all messed up.

[edit] why noam

john locke influened american philosophy. This is what is essential. How noam chomsky uses Locke to interpret history is irrelevant. Stick with his conception of individual rights come property rights and his epistemology.

Note how his detractors tend to rely on Locke's uninfluential works, written when he was still a young man, living under Stuart tyranny when publishing controversial political sentiments could get you sentenced to death - rather than on his influential works, written by the older more mature thinker, after the Glorious Revolution under conditions of political liberty, where he was free to write what he really meant. This is weak and pathetic. TimShell 21:45, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

this section is way too critical of Locke's ideological flaws and ignores his very influential second treatise on government.

[edit] Addition 5th June 2005

The stuff added here about the Essay Concerning Human Understanding was also posted here a couple of months ago. If the person who inserted it in the Wikipedia article is not John Perry (a Stanford prof, and author of the blog posting), it needs to be removed. I'll be emailing him tomorrow, and removing the addition unless he indicates that he posted the material and/or he's happy for it to be there under the normal Wikipedia licence. --Andrew Norman 23:01, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The addition is also long enough that it might be better located in the ECHU article (currently a stub) than in the main Locke page. This is assuming, of course, that Prof. Perry doesn't want it removed outright. -RJC 02:33, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion in Section on Two Treatises

There is a separate article for the Two Treatises of Government (as there is for An Essay Concerning Human Understanding and A Letter Concerning Toleration). Greater detail should probably be put on those pages, with the main article (this one) giving only a brief outline of conclusions and the general flow of the arguments. -RJC 29 June 2005 00:39 (UTC)

[edit] Mistake concerning his view of the church

The article mistakenly states that Locke believed that a national church "would serve as an instrument of social harmony." I could be missing out on something, but I am not aware of such evidence. In his "A Letter Concerning Toleration" Locke actually argues AGAINST a national church and in favor of separation of Church affairs from government affairs. While a devout Christian, Locke advocated dialogue and tolerance towards other "religions" that were in minority in Britain, such as Catholicism, Islam, etc. He advocated tolerance and love towards them, even towards Atheists, as long as their views would not be imposed on the majority of the Christians.

Unless I am confusing my political theorists, I am pretty sure that in "A Letter Concerning Toleration" he does not advocate toleration for atheists because he says that they cannot be bound by oaths. He also does not believe in toleration of religions that would include allegiance to a foreign prince or anyone except the magistrate, thus ruling out Catholics in his estimation. -G

[edit] Deletion of Infobox

Why was the infobox deleted without discussion first? I'm the creator of the template, so I would like to know ways it can be improved. I've re-inserted it for the time being. This template is used on other philosopher's pages as well. Please offer criticisms on its talk page Thanks! --FranksValli 06:05, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Internal link to South Carolina Landgraves/Cassiques List

If it is the same John Locke, Landgrave, Created 1671; I suggest that where appropriate in this artical, an internal link be made to the list of approximately 50 South Carolina Landgraves & Cassiques. Also, on his name in that list, a link back to this artical be made.

[edit] John Locke quote

Hello this is my first post here, I hope I'm not making any mistake. Someone posted a quote at the end of the article on randomness (I think the user name is John locker):

"That which is static and repetitive is boring. That which is dynamic and random is confusing. In between lies art." —John A. Locke

I would have liked to investigate that quote further as I'm working on a paper for college. Could anyone give me the reference for that quote? I tried to contact the user but it didn't seem to work. Thank you very much to anyone who can help.

I don't know the answer but you may want to ask that question on wikiquote as well. Morphh 18:44, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

he had optimistic views said all humans started out with a clean slate

[edit] John Locke relation

John Locke was my great-great-great grandfather 24.233.51.131 23:53, 12 January 2006 (UTC)avi

[edit] Revision

This page needs to be closely reviewed and revised, and should not be considered a reliable source. The writing is poor in many sections and statements do not flow in a reliable narrative structure. For example, see the sentence "Also, he was inherently anti-democracy." This comes out of nowhere and provides no explanation. I don't mean to criticize for the sake of criticism, I was just struck by how unhelpful this article was. I will post more on this when I have more time. Others help!

It certainly needs improvement, and citations - the biography section is OK, everything from "influences" onwards needs major revision, with references (e.g. "Most American liberal scholars" - which ones? Where?). Much of that later section looks like notes from somewhere else. --ajn (talk) 16:27, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I randomly stumbled upon this article and wondered what exactly happened with the "influence" section. Looking at the history, this edit seems to have tried to add a lot on Locke's ideas, but ended up looking like notes or an outline someone took from high school. --68.142.14.96 02:10, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] indirect realism

And also, it is written under an unaceptable "American" focus.

Would be glad if that was changed

hello, sometime lets add lockes metaphysical views of indirect realism. see also Philosophy of perception#Philosophical ideas about perception. i cant do it now, i have a test 142.104.250.115 18:47, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crazy imbalance

The introduction, and the rest of this article, paint a seriously one-sided picture of Locke. There is essentially nothing on his non-political philosophy, which has also been enormously influential (e.g. the distinction between primary and secondary qualities, the distinction between nominal and real essences). I might try to fix this soon, but since it might require some major changes I wanted to get some input. Cadr 11:31, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

To back up what I'm saying, see [1], which is about 50/50 political/non-political. Cadr 11:40, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I can't join in, because I have enough going on at the moment without starting an in-depth study of Locke, but the article does need major rewriting, as I said above. Nothing at all on An Essay Concerning Human Understanding - one sentence which links him with Hume and Berkeley. The article as it stands is very much slanted towards "Locke as father of the American Revolution", which is a caricature of his actual importance. As I say, I can't get involved in a major rewrite, but I'd strongly support it. --ajn (talk) 12:02, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

There is half of an article at An Essay Concerning Human Understanding which I have never finished. Otherwise, political philosophy is pop philosophy and is the most covered aspect of virtually everyone's work here at WP. Christopher Parham (talk) 12:59, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Please add Locke's non-political philosophy stuff. I only know Locke's political philosophy so I can't really help much... Mikker ^... 20:05, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Influence

The last paragraph of this section, I think, needs some citation, since it itself admits that the issue is controversial, as well as flies in the face of what is conventional wisdom on the topic. I mean, it claims that Locke was not a big impact on the founders, yet we know that Locke was a huge impact on Jefferson. In addition, the paragraph only provided examples from Madison and The Federalist Papers, which were controversial and certainly did not represent the opinion of all of the founders. I'm going to remove that section, but please add it in again if you can find a citation.Jackson744 19:01, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I've also removed this comment from the same section:

"though not to the degree that was once thought" due to, I believe, the need for a citation.Jackson744 19:19, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Philosophy other than Politics

There is no mention of Locke's thought as regards epistemology, metaphysics, ethics etc. All is devoted to his political philosophy, which is indeed, a masterly political philosophy. But might I suggest that the editors on this page focus also on his ideas such as the tabula rasa, his conception of knowledge as founded on experience, on his ideas (simple/complex) and emphasis on scientific enquiry. These were all massively influential ideas at their time, and continued to be. --Knucmo2 12:31, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is stunning that nothing is mentioned about Locke's theories of perception and mind. They were hugely important and influential! Inexcusable oversight. DJProFusion 18 July 2006

[edit] Against Democracy

Locke was against democracy, at least the Athenian model. He knew that if the mob rules the individual would loose rights. I think he was for republicanism though. Shouldn't it be noted he is against true democracy (not republicanism found in most countries)? Zachorious 09:08, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I really don't think it's necessary, as so few people think of the Athenian model when they think of democracy. In fact, I don't think the article mentions much about Locke and democracy in the first place. In any case, the differentiation between a democracy and a republic carries little currency among scholars or in public opinion. Maybe it would have 300 years ago, but not today. To make the distinction risks being idiosyncratic. Feel free to mention mob rule or individual rights however. --Beaker342 14:56, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I would argue that the difference between Athenian democracy and republican (or representative) democracy is all important. The same fears were held by the framers of the American Constitution (indeed, the constitutions of most of the Anglo-Saxon nations). Athenian democracy is mob rule, unlimited rule of the people, whereas representative democracy is rule of the people selected by the people. The reason that today many people can't see the difference between direct Athenian democracy and, say, American Republican democracy is that, for many, representative democracy is democracy; we are told that America is a democracy... I would say that to add Locke's anti-direct democracy views are valid and explain why representative democracy evolved to what it is today.Mdgr 01:51, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV bibliography

Wikipedia is not a soapbox for you to praise this or that scholar. --Beaker342 03:56, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Agnes Keene

His mother, Agnes, was "reputed" to be very beautiful? It appears that John took after his father.Lestrade 15:40, 21 August 2006 (UTC)Lestrade

[edit] Locke's Religion

Was Locke a Unitarian? It's certainly a contentious issue, since I don't think Locke ever self-identified as such. Thus the claim appears self-serving. Feel free to expand on Locke's religous thought, however.--Beaker342 03:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I beleive we should add that important part of his bio here. I did add it with a citation but someone deleted it claiming that this is unfounded. Any opinions on this?Omerlives 03:27, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I deleted it because the claim seemed to take the form "Unitarians are tolerant. Locke was tolerant. Therefore Locke was a Unitarian." --Beaker342 03:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, the source is self-published and therefore of dubious reliability.--Beaker342 03:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm open to discussion, however, if we can find evidence that he denied the divinity of Jesus. My edit may have unduly harsh. I'm just so very skeptical of slapping a label on someone who never used it himself.--Beaker342 04:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV-ness

why is the bit about where he lived taken in miles from bristol, don't you (everybody who reads) think this is a bit POV? but I haven't changed it in case there's a valid reason and it has just escaped my extremely powerful and logical brain, hehehe

[edit] Minor Birthplace Issue

Locke was born on August 29, 1632, in a small thatched cottage by the church in Wrington, Somerset, 11.42 miles (18.38 km) from Bristol.

Is it really appropiate to have 11.42 miles as the measurement? It implies a degree of precision that I cannot verify in a seperate source. cobalt91 23:47, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] vandalism

sigh...someone has written of Locke's douchery and erections, among other things. Youaredj

While I am a neophyte when it comes to Wikipedia (though still a proud member), I corrected Vandalism and other issues such as "Spanish Empiricist". There was no such thing as Spanish Empiricism as such. While speaking of Locke's 'douchery and erections' may be amusing, it is altogether inappropriate for the credibility and the reputation of Wikipedia, not to mention its accuracy. In short, all is back to normal. Kirobos

Found some more vandalism; has been eliminated. 138.192.19.6 15:43, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Nom

This page has been nominated for Good Article status. I dropped by to review the article and am impressed with the thoroughness of the article. There are several improvements I'd like to see before I promote the article, so I've put it on hold. These are:

The article is a little difficult for the average reader to comprehend. Try avoiding passive constructions such as "Locke has often been classified," "a tanner's daughter who was reputed to be very beautiful," and "Locke was sent to the prestigious Westminster School." Simple past tenses are also easier to read, for example, "who served" instead of "who had served." I do not see much of a problem with participle in the article or longer sentences with multiple clauses, which also can make prose difficult to follow. While these constructions are not wrong, most readers of English take longer to process them than active tenses and simple constructions. The result is that article can feel a bit fuzzy and overly abstract. Obviously, we can't avoid abstraction completely in an article on a philosopher, but it would help to reduce such to a minimum.

The article could also be a bit more organized. I think a section on Locke's major works would be helpful. We could extract the details of the discussion of An Essay Concerning Human Understanding and other works and put it there. We also could use more subheads in the biography section. In the lead, it would also help to move the information about the influence of Locke upon the American Revolution and Socialism to the first paragraph and the discussion of his place in philosophy proper to the second.

Finally, the article needs to be more thoroughly referenced with in-line citations. I look for about one reference per section. This helps with verifiability and makes it easier for a reader to follow a point that interests them to more reading material. A rule of thumb beyond that is to cite every quotation made in the article and any information that you find in only one source.

Thanks for the nom. I look forward to approving it after you all have improved it. --CTSWyneken^(talk) 12:23, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural depictions of John Locke

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 17:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

John Locke;s mother is Anne Keene, not Agnne.

- - Maybe someone could add a link to the 'other' John Locke, the American Union supporter who during the civil war published the Natsby Letters. There is a coincidental connection between the two of these John Lockes, and in their ways of thinking. Also, they both had direct and enormous(sp) influences on American history. Peace.

[edit] Vandalism

We really need to get this page semiprotected on a semipermanent basis. The vandals are really running rampant. --Beaker342 15:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Human nature

“Unlike Thomas Hobbes, Locke believed that human nature is characterized by reason and tolerance."

No wonder Wikipedia object to POV. This is wrong and couldn’t be wronger. Below are all relevant references to human nature from Locke’s Second Treatise (Cambridge UP 1960, but presumably the paragraphs would be valid for any edition)

Para 123: Enjoyment of the right to be free in the state of nature “is very uncertain, and constantly exposed to the Invasion of others. For all being Kings as much as he, and every Man his Equal, and the greater part no strict Observers of Equity and Justice, the enjoyment of the property he has in this state is very unsafe, very unsecure.” Note: the greater part.

He goes on in para 123: “This makes him willing to quit a Condition, which however free, is full of fears and continual dangers.” This state of nature is a lovely free place except that it is crawling with horrible humans.

Para 124: There needs to be known law because of “Men being biased by their interest.” Note: not some men, but men. I am not omitting anything nice he had to say; he hasn’t got anything nice.

Editor Peter Laslett, in his footnote to 124, quotes from Letter on Toleration, “But the pravity of mankind being such that they had rather injuriously prey upon the fruits of another mans labours than take pains to provide for themselves…” Delightful creatures.

Para 125: “…Men being partial to themselves…” (Not some men.)

Para 128: “And were it not for the corruption, and the vitiousness of degenerate Men…” Here Locke actually allows the possibility that some men might not be vicious. This is about as positive as he ever gets.

Para 135, footnote by Locke: “Laws politick, ordained for external order and regiment amongst Men, are never framed as they should be… unless presuming Man to be in regard of his depraved Mind, little better than a wild Beast…” Note a presumption of a depraved wild beast.

Para 136, Discussing the need for separation of Legislative and Executive: “And because it may be too great a temptation to humane frailty apt to grasp at power…”

On the whole, a pretty bleak picture of human nature. Locke did say people were blank slates but he clearly didn’t believe it as we tend to interpret it. Perhaps he was thinking of some superficial level, such as your language or religion. From the above quotes there seems to be no question that Locke thought that men were bad and made that way.

Hobbes never describes men in such insulting language as Locke. Hobbes just said people were self-interested and a deadly war of all against all was the natural outcome.

They both thought human nature bad, immutably bad. But Hobbes couldn’t think straight. If human nature is bad, why would you give one human absolute power? Locke follows through on bad human nature and offers the solution: divide power and make the executive answerable to the “legislative.” - Pepper 150.203.227.130 09:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cyrus the Great?

Why is Cyrus listed as an influence on Locke? (In the the Western philosophy infobox.) I am not aware of any connection (philosophical or otherwise) between these two figures, and none is mentioned in the body of the article. Can someone explain, or should Cyrus' name just be removed? (Looks like the addition was made by Aytakin on 28 Nov.) Sarvodaya 15:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Labour theory of value?

Could someone please assist the section I've altered on the labour theory of value (now the labour theory of property)? The previous author had stated blatantly that Locke asserts the value of an object is "created" by labour upon it. This is not so. Locke suggests that rightful ownership of property is determined, under the law of nature, by labour. He makes no assertion that labour determines the "value" of said poperty. I've removed all reference to value. He does suggest that man's ownership, via labour, of land can increase the value of that land by increasing its yield. This alone, however, does not support an association with the labour theory of value. For example, Locke posits that formerly common property such as fruit fallen from a tree in the forest, rightfully belongs to the man who labours to gather such fruit and bring it home. He does not suggest that this act increases or creates the value of such fruit. He leaves quite clearly implied that the value of the fruit is in its utility as food. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mxbozz (talk • contribs) 07:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

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