Talk:John Dee

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Contents 1 To the Author(s) 2 In fiction 3 Kelley, Kelly 4 Levitation 5 British Museum objects 6 007 7 Spanish armada 8 Perpetual motion 9 Christ's College Manchester 10 Why the "in fiction" section has to go 11 Dee's Library

[edit] To the Author(s)

This is such a beautifully written entry. I have enjoyed reading it immensely and am pleased to see that it is a featured article. Thank you

[edit] In fiction

What no mention of John Dee from the famous Blackadder series? Maybe someone could add a little about that?

[edit] Kelley, Kelly

The link to Kelly (Kelley) appears to use different spelling than the article. Cimon avaro

Not to worry, there's now a "REDIRECT" to the other spelling. -- Someone else 02:52 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)

Everything's going to Kelley now. P. Riis 04:56, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Levitation

I have moved the following paragraph from the main page because there is no way that everyone would agree that this happened if levitation is to be taken to mean that it was done psychically. Ezra Wax

In February 1996, Manchester Area Psychogeographic levitated the Corn Exchange in Manchester to commemorate the 400th anniversary of Dr John Dee's arrival in Manchester, as Warden of the Collegiate Church, later the Cathedral.

[edit] British Museum objects

The objects listed in the "Artefacts" section can actually be viewed on the British Museum's website--the problem is, you can only go directly to the items using an absurdly long dynamic URL:

[1] (it widens the page if I actually leave it naked)

I feel nervous about making a permanent link to this kind of dynamic URL. The other option is to link to the search page, http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/ and tell the user to search for "Dee" but that seems kind of sloppy. The other thing I'm not sure about is whether the link should go with the discussion of the objects, or in the "External links" section. My initial inclination would be to put the link in that section of the article, but that seems to go against house style. Any thoughts? PRIIS 01:40, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] 007

Dee often traveled throughout Europe as an agent of William Cecil, 1st Baron Burghley, Elizabeth's principal secretary. Dee's reports were signed "007", and is the origin James Bond's designation.

I'm moving this to talk, because there's no evidence for it. The idea of Dee as a spy came from a book written by Richard Deacon in the late '60s, but his argument is highly speculative and not really taken seriously. Dee did have contact with Cecil and (more to the point) Walsingham at different times of his life, but to say he was Cecil's agent would be extremely misleading. I've never seen any evidence for the 007 part: Dee sometimes signed with a delta. Of course, if this can be backed up, it should go back in the article. PRiis 07:12, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

True, but the notion that John Dee was the original 007 is well-known, see for example [2] on About.com. Perhaps the above information could be included with the caveat that the evidence for it is scant, and even the explanation of why the notion exists in the first place. --Susurrus 06:00, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Harleian MS 6986 fol. 45. (figure 1 in Peter French's "John Dee: An Elizabethan Magus") in the British Museum is a letter signed by Dee and sent to Elizabeth dated 10th Nov 1588 and sent from Bohemia to England is signed with a simple "John D" with what looks to be the number 8 as a prefix... the idea that 007 was used as code for Dee seems pretty silly when he's writing to her and signing his name without a care all the way in Trebon. Furthermore I agree with PRiis, there seems to be no evidence at all that Dee was 007 besides it being written that he was.. about.com provides no evidence at all, perhaps someone could reference this? ie what Deacon says and the evidence he uses (or doesnt). Dee was obviously in contact with the crown and gave them all sorts of info, but thats not the same as being a James Bond (besides the fact he slept with someones wife). Saul Vodanovic

[edit] Spanish armada

I removed the following text: When the Spanish Armada was defeated by the British in 1588, Dee was credited by the Queen with having conjured up the storms that decimated the Spanish fleet. The design of the talisman he used in the supposed act of magic was incorporated into the medal awarded to naval officers for achievements in this series of naval battles. With an article on a figure like Dee, I think it's very important to strictly separate the fact from the fantasy. Dee was decidedly out of favor with Elizabeth by 1588, and was not even aware of the defeat of the Armada until months afterwards. PRiis 17:57, 29 July 2005 (UTC) There is a strange entry in one of the spiritual diaries which has an extremely tenuous reference to a threat to England from a foreign fleet in the early 1580s.. the rumours about Dee sinking the fleet by conjuring the storms seems to date from the 17th C so really cant be much more than adding his reputation as a magician. The medallion mentioned actually credits God with destroying the Spanish, 'God blew and they were scattered' (paraphrasing) which makes sense considering it fits with English Protestant sentiment. Saul Vodanovic

[edit] Perpetual motion

I removed this sentence:

In his later years, Dee reported seeing a perpetual motion machines during his travels (with a pension from Elizabeth I), but wasn't allowed a closer look.

It doesn't convey much as it is. PRiis 22:32, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Restoring, as it's part the history of perpetual motion. JDR

Do you have any source for this? Any more details at all? As a side matter, this is in the wrong part of the article, since Dee's travels ended in 1589. PRiis 02:34, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Sources?

• Krieg, Eric, "Eric's history of Perpetual Motion and Free Energy Machines". [original source]
• "The Book of My Life, Girolamo Cardano" [from a g.search]
  • "with Girolamo Cardano [...] investigated a perpetual motion device"

Sincerely, JDR 21:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

As for sources: "Eric's History of Perpetual Motion and Free Energy Machines" is just not a reliable source. If it were, any GeoCities page that made any assertion about anything would be a reliable source. Cardano, on the other hand, is a reliable source. (Your quote, though, is actually from Anthony Grafton's introduction, not from Cardano's book itself.) If that is what you were basing your assertion on, however, your statement contains several errors: Dee met Cardano in 1552 in London, not when he was on his "travels," and, of course, that was six years before Elizabeth was queen--obviously, she was not in a position to give a pension to Dee, which, in fact, she never did anyway.

The other part of my quesiton was about details. All Grafton says is "the two of them investigated a perpetual motion device." We now have even fewer "details" than we started with. Without putting it in the context of Dee's thought, this assertion serves no purpose. John Dee saw lots of things in his long life. Perpetual motion was not an important part of Dee's intellectual or spiritual interests. By highlighting this little fact, we falsify Dee by making it seem more important than it ever was.

You said there is a "History of Perpetual Motion" article. If you really want to salvage this bit of information, maybe it could be a footnote to that article. John Dee, because of his history and his interests, is naturally attracts a vast amount of false and distorted information--that's why we have to be extremely careful with the facts and extra vigilant in keeping the article accurate. PRiis 05:01, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

1st "Eric's History of Perpetual Motion and Free Energy Machines" is a respectable resource on such history.

2nd the two of them investigated a perpetual motion device and Perpetual motion was noted by Dee in his travels

3rd It's applicable to this article and should be noted.

4th Zealously excluding valid and citable information is not acceptable.

Sincerely, JDR

Personal websites and blogs are not acceptable as sources, except on the rare occasion that a well-known person, or a known professional journalist or researcher in a relevant field, has set up such a website. Remember that it is easy for anybody to create a website and to claim to be an expert in a certain field, or to start an "expert group", "human rights group", church, or other type of association. Several million people have created their own blogs in the last few years. They are not regarded as acceptable sources for Wikipedia. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources for more information. -- Wikipedia:Verifiability

You still haven't addressed the other factual errors I've pointed out. PRiis 20:57, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Eric Krieg isn't "anybody" ... he founded the Philadelphia Association of Critical Thinking known as PhACT and is a well known skeptic on "perpetual motion". J. D. Redding 16:44, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Look, he could be the world's leading authority on perpetual motion or Hummel figurines--the point is, how credible a source is he on Tudor history and 16C mathematical and esoteric thought? That's what this article is about. In the single sentence in which he mentions John Dee (with no indication of source whatsoever) he claims that Dee received a pension from Elizabeth, which is false. In fact, the lack of support from Elizabeth is a recurring theme in Dee's biography. How can we trust someone who gets a fundamental point so wrong?

What about substituting this as a compromise: In 1552, Dee met Gerolamo Cardano in London: during their acquaintance they investigated a perpetual motion machine as well as a gem purported to have magical properties.

At least this is solidly sourced, and it includes information on Cardano that should be included anyway. PRiis 22:53, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, the pension part is not Eric Krieg's page at all. Where did you get that? In any case, it's wrong--Dee never received a pension from Elizabeth, so no matter what, that needs to be removed, as well as the statement that Dee met Cardano on his travels. PRiis 23:01, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, it's been a month with no objection, so I've gone ahead and made the change. PRiis 23:51, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Christ's College Manchester

I don't want to insert anything myself as I would not want to unwittingly detract from such a classic and highly-regarded contribution. However, readers may wish to know that the school named as Christ's College (founded 1515 by Hugh Oldham, Bishop of Exeter) went on to become better known as Manchester Grammar School, in which form it still exists; I think an addition in the form (now Manchester Grammar School) with a link to that school's webpage (www.mgs.org) might be made after the article reference to Christ's College, especially as no such establishment now exists and the wikification of it is misleading.

Incidentally, another web page I've seen on John Dee opines that he was not a good warden (headmaster) (I think the word 'disastrous' was used) - he can't have been all that bad if the establishment still exists - at least he did no lasting damage!

For what it is worth, I tend to agree with Dr John Clarke, a Research Fellow at Manchester University's Psychology Dept. in the 1980's and a John Dee enthusiast (and author and producer of a playlet in which I appeared as John Dee!), that while Dee may or may not have been a natural teacher of children, he was respected by the pupils, brought a great deal of kudos to a provincial school and had a considerable effect on the city as a whole and its academics in particular; setting the tone for original research and applied science. Knowing him I believe John Clarke had firm evidence for saying this - but I regret I was not privy to it. Herra 15:31, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I live in Manchester and went to the Manchester Grammar School - hence I would love to know more about his work there and what is effect was on the city as a whole. Where can I find out about this? ThePeg 15:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC

Thanks for the info--that's very interesting! I've gone ahead and made the link to Manchester Grammar School. PRiis 23:55, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why the "in fiction" section has to go

Example: In Philip Pullman's novel Northern Lights (US title: The Golden Compass), Dee is mentioned briefly in an alternate Elizabethan England. This is not a statement about Dee, but about Philip Pullman's novel. If that novel gets an article it can be mentioned there.

In the [Wikipedia:Featured article review/John Dee FA review], Salix Alba argued: that section demonstates his impact today. Quite a few well know authors have used him as a sort of iconic figure. OK, so let's say something about the impact without putting up such a silly list. --Pjacobi 12:34, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

If you want to prosify it, go ahead; but the information is worth keeping. -- Gwern (contribs) 14:09, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

We disagree about this. See my statement above. A completely insane but pragmatic solution would be a spin-off article John Dee in fiction, just like Tachyons in fiction. --Pjacobi 14:44, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I have wielded the flame-thrower on it, leaving the sturdier-looking saplings but scorching (or indeed scotching) the weeds. I hope it is better. -- ALoan (Talk) 18:30, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dee's Library

According to the research of Frances Yates Dee's Library formed the focus of all the artistic giants of the day. Sir Philip Sidney, Sir Edmund Spenser all spent time there and were part of Dee's intellectual circle. Is it not likely that Shakespeare would probably have had access to this library? Many people suggest that the range of references in Shakespeare's work to History, Mysticism etc indicate that he couldn' have written his plays as a man of his class wouldn't have had a library or education of this kind. Manly Hall cites this as the best proof that Bacon wrote his plays! Surely Shakespeare, who must have been at the heart of the artistic life of his day, must have spent time in Dee's Library discovering and searching for ideas? The article says that Shakespeare based Prospero on Dee (in fact this can only be an assertion. We cannot prove this.). For this to be the case must he not have known him? I imagine Marlowe based his Faustus on anti-Dee propaganda. Interesting. ThePeg 15:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)