Talk:Jogaila

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Archives
Talk:Wladyslaw Jagiello of Poland/Archive A Talk:Wladyslaw Jagiello of Poland/Archive B Talk:Władysław II Jagiełło/Archive 1 Talk:Wladyslaw Jagiello of Poland/Archive 2 Talk:Wladyslaw Jagiello of Poland/Archive 3 Talk:Wladyslaw Jagiello of Poland/Archive 4 Talk:Władysław II Jagiełło/Archive 5 Talk:Władysław II Jagiełło/Archive 6 Talk:Jogaila/Archive 7 Talk:Jogaila/Archive 8 Talk:Jogaila/Archive 9

Contents 1 Mediation 1.1 Participants 2 Draft RfM 2.1 Encyclopedias 2.2 Dictionaries 2.3 History Atlas 2.4 Are we getting close? 2.4.1 And if not 2.5 A modest proposal 2.5.1 Revote (moved, expanded) 2.6 Excuse me 2.7 Revised straw poll 2.8 Discussion 3 Building a name piece by piece 4 Informal Straw Poll #793 4.1 Yes 4.2 No 5 Stone, also English usage 6 Jogaila vs Vytautas 7 GA nomination On Hold 8 Thoughts on the article 9 Thoughts on the Title 10 Congratulations! Jogaila passed as Good Article

[edit] Mediation

All other efforts have failed. We need to proceed to the next step of dispute resolution, mediation. What we now need, is a list of people who are willing to discuss this naming issue, in good faith and in the spirit of compromise, with a neutral mediator. This is not a venue for those who wish to enter with a "winning" or "losing" mentality -- we need good faith editors who are as willing to listen as they are to talk. Be warned that this is likely going to be a time-consuming process that could drag on for weeks or months. Anyone is welcome to watch the discussion, but if you are interested in being one of the active participants, please list your name below. --Elonka 19:31, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Missed the deadline :(. Would've been 23, if it matters... Ulritz 22:31, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't change a thing. We have 16:16 votes interpreted as if it was a victory, we have victories interpreted as if they were a draw, we have empty accusations, voters arguing that the reason why they support or oppose is that the other people to vote are Polish or German or whatever nationality... Initially I was going to apply the very same rule that was once applied to this article, that is to move it against wiki consensus and then insist on keeping it. However, it would not change much, nor would mediation help. Wiki will remain the only encyclopedia to call the guy by the name he dropped not because this is the logical choice, but because that name is not Polish. No mediation could fix that I'm afraid. //Halibutt 22:38, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

So you suggesting that contributors did not assumed good faith during the vote? M.K. 23:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Halibutt, the world isn't out to get you. It's not the end of all that is fair! To quote The Crucible you seem to think "God is dead!" If this article should rightly be somewhere else, that's where it will eventually end up in. Personally, I think that every view should be considered and discussed, and the majority of people should be left satisfied. That evidently isn't the case with either Jogaila or Wladyslaw II Jagiello. A compromise needs to be found. Also, I did not vote because of nationalistc views, I voted on my personal opinion, backed up with (albeit disputed in some cases) points. Me for example - I am not a rabid Lithuanian POV-pusher nor do I hold any anti-Polish views. I haven't been "brainwashed by Lithuanian teachings" - what I voted for is what I believe in from my personal knowledge. Full stop. Andrius 23:07, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Well said. If only we had more editors willing to discuss things in a civil manner like you, and fewer with such 'arguments' like Ghirla or Matthead (see their 'oppose' arguments above)... Still, I fully believe that in the coming future, when increasing number of academics will join Wiki, we will see less 'POV pushing' and more serious debate.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:18, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Elonka, what steps lies ahead during this mediation, some brief moments could you draw? M.K.

I'm not Elonka, but the next step is to go to Wikipedia:Requests for mediation and create a request there explaining what needs mediated. Once that's done and the request is accepted, the mediation folks will create a subpage (like Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Shining Path, which is currently open, or Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Opus Dei, completed). Mediation only proceeds if all the editors named in the request agree, which is why Elonka needs to know who wants to be named on the request. There is no guarantee that a mediation request will be accepted. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:40, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for clarification M.K. 23:44, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Btw, what is the purpose of this mediation? I can understand if the purpose was to 'civilise' the few editors who don't respect WP:CIV, but so far none of those have signed below as participants. Of those who signed so far, I am sure we can have a pleasant and civilised discussion - but leading nowhere, as kilobytes of archives show. The only way to break that deadlock (i.e. rename this article to something we will all respect) is to get opinions of several academics, who (hopefully) would agree on a single variant. Because I don't see how efforts of a mediator, who will likely have even less knowledge than us about the content dispute (and none of us IIRC is a professional historian) will help contribute to the resolution of this problem.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  02:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree, such editors with contributions during the various vote like these [1][2] [3][4] should be not only "civilise" but also and learn some new policies. M.K. 09:14, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I was rather thinking that the mediation could civilize users who display signs of paranoia (per WP:CABAL) or accusse others of trolling instead of addressing the concerns raised.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Next time try to pick up all evidence "revert troll Halibutt 2006-10-21T22:24:32 compare dates and try to guess that "per example" means in mine. M.K. 18:23, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

One wrong doesn't make another one better, you are both behaving terrible.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:28, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Redirect this remark to yourself. M.K. 08:14, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Clearly, this discussion is going nowhere. Appleseed (Talk) 15:09, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

The purpose of the mediation will be to agree on a title for this page. It is my hope that in a structured environment, with a civil discussion, good faith participants, and a neutral mediator, we'll finally be able to resolve this long-running dispute. --Elonka 03:29, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Prokonsul Piotrus, I do not think you are the creep that others have continually tried to apply a negative broadbrush to. When you are neutral, your imput is outstanding. Why do you constantly attempt to whitewash this completely discredited editor who has caused continual and inexplicable damage to the perception of what the Polish contributions to English Wikipedia are? Dr. Dan 18:26, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Dan, I'd kindly suggest you take your personal remarks to appropriate userspace. I don't think this article is the right place for this. Especially after all it's seen so far. --Lysy^talk 20:22, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Apologies, I had looked at the article earlier (I made a correction regarding Uliana being Algirdas' second wife) but didn't realize there was some sort of dispute over the name of the article. It's a fine balance between original language name syntax and what's commonly used in English. I can only say that I just last week received my copy of Daniel Stone's "The Polish-Lithuanian State, 1386-1795," part of the History of East Central Europe series from the University of Washington Press. Checking his index at the back... "Jogaila. See Jagiello", with index entries actually appearing under Jagiello. (No diacritical/etc. markings.) As this is as per what can be considered a definitive and absolutely current reference on Poland/Lithuania, it's an option worth considering. I have enough dragons to slay elsewhere, so I'd rather stay out of this one otherwise. BTW, I can't recommend the book highly enough for anyone interested in Poland-Lithuania. Hope this helps! —Pēters J. Vecrumba 03:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

BTW, I should mention it's way too much energy to go through the history of the discussion, which does seem to have boiled down to whether sperm are Lithuanian or Polish. (Is this a mischaracterization?) This is as definitive an academic reference as you'll find—I didn't post this to agree or disagree with anyone. As I said, I hope it helps. —Pēters J. Vecrumba 03:56, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

P.S., For what it's worth I would take that to mean rename from single word "Jogaila" to single word "Jagiello". —Pēters J. Vecrumba 04:03, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I stand to correct myself (not the first time...). Index aside, Stone refers to Jogaila as Jogaila throughout, stating that "he reigned with the Polish name Władysław II Jagiełło" (written properly), and also (in the Lithuanian sense) refers to him as Grand Duke Jogaila. The text reverses the sense of the index so that Stone uses "Jogaila" alone prior to his Polish reign, then "Jogaila (Jagiełło)"—written properly—subsequently. Stone does not use Władysław, as he notes that was his "baptismal name" (so, not given name). Thus, my revised recommendation (!) would be "Jogaila (Jagiełło)" with redirects from Jogaila and Jagiello. My sincere apologies for having muddied the waters! But after finally ploughing through the rather lengthy discourse above I thought it would be a disservice not to read through all of Stone's Jogaila/Jagiełło references and provide as thorough and objective a suggestion as possible. Best regards, Pēters J. Vecrumba 02:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Stone adopts the convention of using "Jogaila" when writing about him until the Polish throne, "Grand Duke..." when writing about him acting in official capacity as Lithuanian monarch. He then uses "Jogaila (Jagiełło)" subsequently ("Polish era"); where Stone strictly means "Jogaila (Jagiełło)" acting specifically in his role as Polish monarch, then (and only then) does he use the full "Władysław II Jagiełło" (and no "Jogaila"). So part of the solution would be to use the correct name within the article based on context: (1) "Jogaila" later transitioning to "Jogaila (Jagiełło)" writing about him in general, and (2) using the proper titular names "Grand Duke Jogaila" or "Władysław II Jagiełło" when writing about him specifically acting in the role of monarch. Being Latvian, my predisposition is to "side" with the Lithuanians. But arguing about who Jogaila (Jagiełło) ultimately "belongs" to doesn't seem to be yielding any progress. And "Grand Duke Jogaila (Władysław II Jagiełło)" is really a mouthful, not to mention the argument which would ensue about which name/title "belongs in parentheses"--although Stone observes "original name (later name)." Really, wouldn't you rather be writing about Poland/Lithuania as the global power of its day? (And except for ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ below, it's been awfully quiet after the initial rush to sign up to dispute...) —Pēters J. Vecrumba 22:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe what you describe above is the convention we are using (Jogaila for L. related contexts, W2J for P. related ones). The question is which of those two should be the title of the article - we seem to be using both in articles without much problems. And yes, good call on reminding us on why we are here. Some of us (myself, Halibutt) are constantly writing about this era, trying not to get bogged down by talk arguments - and I pity those whose majority edits are limited to such discussions :> -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I pity those whose majority edits are limited to such discussions hmm somewhere I already heard this "argument". M.K. 00:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Another P.S. Link to Stone's book @ U of W Press is here, published in 2001 and extremely well reviewed, so as current and quality a reference as you'll find for appropriate English language terminology and usage. —Pēters J. Vecrumba 22:42, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Jogaila also bore the Orthodox name Jacob before he became High King of the Lithuanians, although I'm not sure if there is any evidence he was baptised as Jacob with Orthodox rite. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 21:30, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Vecrumba, why not use Jogaila (Jagiełło) for article's title (with redirect from Jogaila, Jagiełło etc.) ? --Lysy^talk 00:50, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Jogaila (Jagiełło) is my final suggestion for the title, then update the article for appropriate consistency and put in all the possible redirects. I was only commenting that Grand Duke Jogaila (Władysław II Jagiełło) would be just a bit too much for readers to deal with as an article title. —Pēters J. Vecrumba 04:20, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Participants

• Elonka 19:31, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
•  _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC) providing that WP:CIV will be respected.
• Septentrionalis 19:49, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
• --Beaumont (@) 07:53, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
• Angus McLellan (Talk) 17:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
• Evv 13:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC) - Restricting myself to policy adherence, for lack of familiarity with the long story of this dispute.

[edit] Draft RfM

I have created a draft for the mediation request at User:Angusmclellan/Jogaila mediation. Please add to it. In particular, I imagine that there are other dispute resolution attempts which might be connected to this request. Article content RfCs are not easy to find. Angus McLellan (Talk) 18:48, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

AFAIK, there's no open relevant article content rfc, only a user conduct rfc. --Lysy^talk 19:27, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid all the parties of the negotiation so far would support "Jagiello" vs "Jogaila". What's there to negotiate, then ? --Lysy^talk 19:32, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

If Jagiello was acceptable to editors who don't like Jogaila, I wonder why they didn't propose a move there. Anyone who believes that the have a view which would be unrepresented can sign up. (Everyone needs to sign up after it's opened anyway). Piotrus opened a content RfC on 25 October. Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:56, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Two points. The dispute it about title, not content. The user conduct RfM, while useful, is currently pointless as none of the users who were engaged in incivility (from my perspective - M.K, EED, Dr. Dan, Ghirla) signed for the mediation (which is telling in itself). As for the Jagiello vs Jogaila, while 4 people out of 5 indicated their perference for it I am not sure about Angus stance on that issue - but as I wrote above I don't see how any side can present any other arguments. If people were not convinved before, why should they change their minds now? Last but not least: indeed, a RM to Jagiello wouldn't be that bad of an idea.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:00, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

incivility? Try to apply some of your words to yourself.

Mediation can proceed, why not? M.K. 20:11, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Care to join it?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:26, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Care to withdraw? M.K. 16:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Taking Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Israeli apartheid as a guide, it appears that article name disputes may be subjects for dispute resolution, including arbitration. Since the objections to many proposed names turn on perceived non-neutrality, there's nothing to separate this from any other NPOV dispute. We've had talk, we've had disengage, we've had surveys, more talk, more surveys, more disengagement, and even more surveys, so next on the list at dispute resolution is mediation. Perhaps a third opinion would have been easier, but that only applies to a dispute between two editors. As to what the mediation people will make of this, I'll finish the draft and ask Essjay for an opinion. On the absence of supposedly contentious editors from mediation, Matthew 7:3 seems quite appropriate: Balcer, logologist ... Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I can understand why you mentioned logologist, although his sockpuppet excesses where more of an item for RfC/RfA than mediation - there is simply no denying they were wrong and had to be stopped. But he has not engaged much in discussions one way or another. And why Balcer?? Where has he been incivil?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:26, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

There's more that one kind of unacceptable behaviour: things like this episode for example. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I am indeed in favor of moving this to Jagello or Jagiello. If it is really possible to keep that RM limited to that, and not again go to Polish-language versions as other proposals (and consequently opening again that opinionated writing of some hundred kilobytes here about all sorts of diacritical marks), I would even make such a RM proposal. Shilkanni 23:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Why not, we can try Jagiello w/out diactrics, numerals or first names. It still beats Jogaila in my book.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:26, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I would opt for "Jogaila (Jagiełło)" or "Jogaila (Jagiello)" as titles (then use diacriticals in the text). It would seem to me that renaming to simply "Jagiello" is stating some kind of claim of Polish exclusivity which is not appropriate and which is not in keeping with the very latest scholarly syntax in English. —Pēters J. Vecrumba 22:40, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

While this does not seem to fit our usual naming convention, perhaps since they are both short this would be a feasible solution. But in that case why not Jogaila (Władysław II Jagiełło)?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

"Jogaila (Władysław II Jagiełło)" looks fair enough indeed. -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 23:38, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I foresee objections from people who think there should be no exceptions to WP:NC, but indeed, such a dual solution may be perhaps the only way both parties are satisfied.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:55, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

If we prefer diacriticals (which is fine, I've been using for Latvian articles) then I would say "Jogaila (Jagiełło)" for simplicity--the "fully titled" alternative would be "Grand Duke Jogaila (Władysław II Jagiełło)".—Pēters J. Vecrumba 00:31, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Why? If we want to include the titles (and I can't see why we would want that) it would be 'Grand Duke Jogaila (king Władysław II Jagiełło)'.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  03:51, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Presumably King is implied by the Roman numeral, but I agree that titles are pointless here. Septentrionalis 16:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I would support simple Jagiello. It is recognizable to English-speakers, and it seems neutral; which nation does it favor? Septentrionalis 16:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Poles. --Lysy^talk 18:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

What a surprise - is there any name that does not, in someone's POV, favor some nation? How about Jagello - which nation does it favor? Shilkanni 18:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I was about to ask the same: whether there exist any "neutral" name. Most likely not. With the content dispute we can balance the POVs, we can refine some statements, write separate paras etc. For naming, however, there is a decision to make and this why the issue is more difficult. We can, however, try to determine what is the less controversial. And I think that Jogaila is too far from a hypothetic optimal choice (I prefer W2J). Yes, that's my POV, but I'm ready to provide some more elaborated rationale that do rely on the English literature, especially the tertiary sources which by WP:NC are preferable in this case. I guess, this is not the moment. Instead, I observe that, possibly, Jagiello would generate a consensus, as probably more English natives would subscribe to this. If in this way we could terminate this counter-productive dispute, I'd not object. --Beaumont (@) 20:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I really don't see what was wrong with following Stone's syntax, I really don't think you can just get rid off the Jogaila. While I think "Jogaila (Jagiełło)" is the simplest, I've reflected on the above and would also support "Jogaila (Władysław II Jagiełło)". Hmm... I might not be an observer anymore... :-) —Pēters J. Vecrumba 02:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

First, I would like to thank Vecrumba for his valuable contributions :-)
As Beaumont mentions above, every name will be "unfair" for some people, but only to some Eastern Europeans, and not to over a billion English speakers from around the world. Furthermore, WP:NPOV doesn't apply to this dispute.
For naming the article we just have to follow the naming conventions policy: Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize.
For the case of rulers, the guideline on names and titles applies: Most general rule overall: use the most common form of the name used in English if none of the rules below cover a specific problem. One of those "rules below" does apply also: Where a monarch has reigned over a number of states, use the most commonly associated ones.
And WP:UE: If you are talking about a person, [...] use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article, as you would find it in other encyclopedias and reference works.
So, all we have to do is determine common English usage (through WP:V) and reflect it. If common English usage happens to be "unfair", well... so be it: it's not Wikipedia's job to actively correct "unfair" English usage, but to passively reflect it.

(It only has to be a source that's IN English to be verifiable, e.g., the Stone book which is all in English and does not transliterate. —Pēters J. Vecrumba 03:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC))

It is my personal perception that this most unfair of common English usages is Wladislaw II Jagiello or Władysław II Jagiełło (I'm heavely pro-diacritics, but that's a secondary issue). Of course, such usages do change in the course of time, and Jogaila could eventually become the norm; but Wikipedia should merely reflect those changes, and not spearhead them.
If mediation doesn't work, an arbitration on conduct and willingness to follow Wikipedia policies & guidelines could resolve this.
Best regards, Evv 02:35, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Evv, may I ask your opinion regarding the billion English speaking people (some believe it or not, being of Eastern European ancestry), who have been "corrected" to call Cracow, Kraków in English Wikipedia? Would you be in favor of changing this back to Cracow? Does this seem logical to you, or would it be better to learn to live with it? Dr. Dan 14:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

lol I'm rather conservative in these things :-) I use and prefer Cracow, so I would favour it in principle; but there's a strong case for Kraków (Britannica, books & travel-guides written after 1990 -the date I use to determine current usage-, NGS). I will give you a proper response in Talk:Kraków at a later moment. - Regards, Evv 15:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I do agree - you stolen my rationale ;). And I think the work has been already done. For the sake of reader's convenience I copy the essential part of it. Full details can be found here.

[edit] Encyclopedias

1. Grand Duke Jagiello (New American Desk Encyclopedia, under "Lithuania" )
2. Jogaila (Jagiello) and Jagiello (title Vladislav V) (The Encyclopedia of World History, Sixth Edition, 2001)[5][6] [7]
3. Jagielło (Władysław II) (New Catholic Encyclopedia)
4. Ladislaus II, king of Poland (Online Columbia) [8]
5. Ladislas Jagiello (Oxford's Encyclopedia of the Middle Ages )
6. Wladyslaw II Jagiello (Online Britannica)[9]
7. Wladyslaw II Jagiello (Webster's Desk Encyclopedia)
8. Władysław II (Encarta) [10]
9. Władysław II Jagiełło of Poland (1979 Brittanica, under "Jagiellon dynasty")
10. Władysław II Jagiełło and Jadwiga (1979 Brittanica, combined article title)
11. Władysław II Jagielło (Poland) (Lithuanian: Jogaila; c. 1351–1434) (Europe, 1450 to 1789: Encyclopedia of the Early Modern World)[11]
12. Władysław II Jagiełło, King of Poland (1975 Funk & Wagnall's Encyclopedia under "Lithuania")
13. Władysław Jagiełło (2003 Encyclopedia of Library and Information Science)[12]

[edit] Dictionaries

1. Vladislav II (The Oxford Dictionary of the Renaissance)
2. Ladislaus II (The Oxford Dictionary of English (2nd edition revised))
3. Ladislaus II (Oxford Dictionary of World History)
4. Jagiello (Wladyslaw II) (Sokol's Polish Biographical Dictionary)

[edit] History Atlas

1. Władysław II Jagiełło (The Times Atlas of World History, Fourth Edition, London, 1994, ISBN 0-7230-0534-6, page 333).

There is also a secondary sources review with 16:6 in favor of some form of "Polish" name, but this is more difficult to analyse, as in the secondary sources he appears under two names (we do the same!); in some indexes he appears as W2J with some redirects from other names. Anyway, I think I would support any form that is common in the tertiary sources (latinized or not, with or without diacritics). I have nothing against adding Jogaila in the title neither. What else can be called a reasonable consensus basis? And in view of the above survey, Jogaila in the first place is simply incorrect. --Beaumont (@) 09:52, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I will try and rememeber to check Stone tonight for the title of his Jogaila section. Be that as it may, I've also gone through Wiki naming conventions for monarchs/etc., where most prominent (perception) counts more than given/original (reality). Reversing the order would keep with Stone's index syntax order (how people are likely to look for him) versus his text syntax (how he should be referred to according to period/role). By that criteria, "Władysław II Jagiełło (Jogaila)" would be a more appropriate order which I could (were I involved) equally support. :-) The article would then use the appropriate name for the appropriate period/function ala Stone.

In terms of diacriticals, I would be in favor. Quite frankly, the historical lack of proper diacriticals outside of Spanish, French, German, etc. is more a function of the restrictions of hot-type (poured lead) typesetting technology than of some kind of "Eastern European references must be un-diacriticalized for the English (speaking) masses" movement. You don't have shift/ALT keys or control/ALT change language keystrokes at your whim when you're typing with your fist on a typewriter the size of an office desk and each key is the size of a coffee cup lid! (And watch the little molds slide down the chute and get assembled next to each other--positively Rube-Goldbergian!) A linotype machine with all the special characters at the bottom of the edit window we all use would need to be the size of a small house (OK, maybe I exagerate, a house trailer, then). Given today's technology, I don't see any good reason not to use the diacriticals in the title, it's just living in the past. It's not a POV kind of issue. —Pēters J. Vecrumba 13:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

P.S. In terms of spellings, I would tend to discount the others, to me at least it's a bit like using "Peking" when the world has moved on to "Beijing"... now it's just "Peking duck." —Pēters J. Vecrumba 13:58, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

lol Believe it or not, as Piotrus mentioned above this whole dispute is just over the article's name, not about content :-) Apparently there's no disagreement in using the appropriate name for the appropriate period/function. - Best regards, Evv 14:17, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Are we getting close?

So, are we saying that "Władysław II Jagiełło (Jogaila)" as the article title will satisfy all (albeit perhaps some not rapturously, my uninvolved self included) parties? —Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:40, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

It would me.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  15:07, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Me too. - Evv 15:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

this is ok. --Beaumont (@) 15:48, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

This is acceptable Szopen 07:51, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

OK. logologist|Talk 09:48, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

This would be acceptable to me. --Elonka 10:51, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Not OK

Not OK: if that is your best proposal, I'd prefer to keep the page name as it is now. --Francis Schonken 12:02, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I concur; Jogaila, with its flaws, is better than Władysław II Jagiełło (Jogaila), which nobody uses and is not English. Septentrionalis 19:24, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

which nobody uses and is not English - care to look above? -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:47, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I have; I didn't say that nobody uses Władysław II Jagiełło - although it is not English and is minority usage; nobody uses the compound form suggested. For anglophones, Ladislaus is better than Wladyslaw, which is better than the unpronounceable Władysław. Piotrus has also neglected to mention that apparently the numeral is debateable. Septentrionalis 21:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Could you define 'minority usage'? Out of 13 encyclopedias above, not a single one uses just 'Jogaila' and only one mentions it in name as 'Jogaila (Jagiello)'. Only DOES NOT use a 'Wladyslaw' variant; only one DOES not use a 'Jagiello' variant. 3 don't use numeral, 1 uses 'V', 9 use 'II'. 1 uses 'Vladislav', 1 'Ladislaus', 1 'Ladislas', 2 use 'Wladyslaw' without diactrics while 7 use 'Władysław'. 2 mention 'Jagiello' without Wladyslaw/Władysław; 8 use 'Jagiello/Jagiełło' with a variant of 'Władysław'. 1 use 'Władysław II', 1 use 'Władysław Jagiełło', 1 use 'Ladislas Jagiello' and 1 use 'Jagielło (Władysław II)'. 2 use exactly 'Wladyslaw II Jagiello', 4 use 'Władysław II Jagiełło'. I fail to see how you can argue that Jogaila is better than any other variant; and it is obvious that 'Władysław II Jagiełło' is the most popular variant AND a combination of most popular first name/numeral/surname/nickname/etc.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  22:36, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

To be precise, 17 reference works are cited; the 15th Britannica, as of 1979, is cited twice. Of those, four, including the 15th EB, use Władysław II Jagiełło; all of them use variants on one name, the other, or both. The online Britannica, which does not pretend to be bound by Use English has nonetheless dropped the diacritics; its statement on usage is: Lithuanian Jogaila, or Iogaila, English Jagiello, or Jagello. 4 out of 17 is a minority. Septentrionalis 23:33, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

None of the above variants is in majority. 'Władysław II Jagiełło' is in the largest minority of them all. Jogaila is in one of the smallest. It's as simple as that.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  01:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

A title with Władysław in it is the equivalent of saying that Clovis should be called Louis, or Ludwig, because those are the modern versions of his name. The relevance of modern Polish orthography to C14th Poland, Lithuania, &c, is not self-evident. Put simply, Jogaila is the least misleading of the various article titles on offer. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunatly for you, most of the academic writers seem to disagree, and for various reasons prefer to Władysław. Wikipedia's job is not to correct their (possible) mistakes, but to report verifiable facts - and it is evident that 'Władysław II Jagiełło' is the most commonly used variant.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  01:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more with Piotrus. In any case, "Jogaila" is the wrong title: let's move it to "Władysław II Jagiełło" and then discuss the posibility of latinizing ALL medieval Władysławs. - Evv 04:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Unfortuntly, that didn't work last time, thus we are searching for a compromise (i.e. a solution that makes everyone equally unhappy :>). Jagiello of W2J(J) seem like the two best next solutions...-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  04:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] And if not

I did go back and check the Stone text, unfortunately, nothing new regarding the actual chapter (yes, a whole chapter!) on Jogaila, the chapter is simply titled "Jogaila (Jagiełło)", same name syntax as already mentioned. Is there a specific reason, Francis Schonken, for your preference? As much as my personal preference is for the just-mentioned syntax, WP:NM is clear about monarchal titles being the dominant name. Leaving the title as is does not appear to be viable. It's very odd (to say the least) to be speaking of the Jagiełłonian dynasty's place in history and somehow not have the article title identify him as the first. "Jogaila (Władysław II Jagiełło)" is the only other viable alternative, but then it quite clearly does not follow naming convention, which is why I didn't make that my suggestion. (To quote Wiki conventions on someone--including myself--pains me more than you can possibly imagine....) I was really hoping that having Stone's new/definitive reference on Poland-Lithuania would help solve the impass. —Pēters J. Vecrumba 13:48, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean by "WP:NM"? --Francis Schonken 14:10, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Ooops, sorry meant to say WP:NC - Widkipedia naming conventions, "NC" not "NM". There's a section on monarchs and titles in Wiki titles. —Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:48, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, WP:NC is not clear about monarchal titles being the dominant name. It only has:

For most Western royalty and nobility, see: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)

And "monarchal titles being the dominant name" is a fairly inadequate rephrasing of the "names and titles" NC. In any case inadequate to solve the article name for this monarch of Poland *and* Lithuania. In other words, all attempts to solve the article name for this monarch based on Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles), have failed. Proposals to format the article name as prescribed by Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) have ceased several months ago now. I don't think we should go back to these times, that brought no solution.

But that doesn't mean I think we should let go of the principles of the more general guideline Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people).

• I object to a parenthical addition "(Jogaila)" because of:
  1. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people)#Qualifier between brackets or parentheses (bracketed disambiguators for people should not contain capitals, which excludes, for instance, proper names like "Jogaila").
  2. The bracketed addition isn't even a disambiguator:
     1. It confuses while something at the end of a page name between brackets should by Wikipedia convention only be a disambiguator;
     2. Unneeded disambiguators in this fashion are usually rejected, as was reconfirmed, for instance, recently at wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television). The addition "(Jogaila)" is completely redundant in this sense, there is no ambiguity to "resolve" by the addition "(Jogaila)".
• I object to the use of "ł" instead of "l" because I think "ł" the less appropriate choice in this case. I won't refer to existing guidance or proposals in this matter, they're inconclusive. But I still think the same about this as I did before. --Francis Schonken 20:32, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

First of all, for the purposes of WP:NC Polish and Lithuanian royalty and nobility is as Western as Spanish, French, English, Italian, German, Russian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Greek, Moroccan, Algerian, Tunisian, Egyptian, Jordanian and Iraqi ones: Most of the [naming] conventions [on names and titles] are intended for medieval and modern European and Muslim rulers and nobility. WP:NC (names and titles) does apply to this case as much or more than WP:NC (people), which only gives the general principles, making clear that in some cases more specific guidelines also apply, for example: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) (for monarchs and nobles in a Western tradition after antiquity).

Shunning WP:NC (names and titles) and relying solely on WP:NC (people) was/would be inappropriate.

I share Francis Schonken's objection to a parenthical addition "(Jogaila)" for the very same reasons he gives, which I consider a proper reading of Wikipedia policies and guidelines on the issue. The name should be "Władysław II Jagiełło" alone. But, for the sake of compromise, I'm very reluctantly forcing myself to accept the "(Jogaila)" addition.

I perfectly understand Francis Schonken's objection on the "ł vs. l" issue. Personally, I like diacritics :-), which I found a more perfectionist and educative way to display a name/word. However, I consider it a sepparate issue, which should be discussed in another place taking into account all similar instances and not this single case in particular.

Best regards, Evv 04:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Once again, I share the views expressed by Evv. More precisely, I hope "(Jogaila)" would help to build a consensus. I like the diacritics, like in Óengus I of the Picts, but this is not important to me at all. I'd prefer that it would not predominate the present debate. --Beaumont (@) 07:00, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Evv, I suppose you misread my comments:

1. "Władysław II Jagiełło (Jogaila)" is not OK w.r.t. WP:NC (names and titles). Pretending otherwise would be an error.
2. I think I was one of the last ones defending that the page name should conform to WP:NC (names and titles), at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles). I remember getting some support from John k at the time, the overwhelming majority of other editors forcefully rejecting the idea. That was several months ago.
3. Before and after that I've proposed several "mixed" solutions (that is page names that took some characterisitics from WP:NC (names and titles) mixed with other general naming conventions principles). None of these survived discussion nor eventual WP:RM. I think "Władysław II Jagiełło (Jogaila)" considerably worse than some of the "mixed solutions" I proposed. In that case I prefer "Jogaila" (the current page name).

In sum, if we can't get this page moved from "Jogaila" to "Wladyslaw II Jagiello" (which was the last WP:RM vote, which I supported), I don't think proposing "Władysław II Jagiełło (Jogaila)" via WP:RM is even worth the trouble (some of those supporting the move to "Wladyslaw II Jagiello", including but probably not limited to myself, won't support this time). But you're free: if you think enough time has elapsed since the previous WP:RM, go ahead, and propose it. --Francis Schonken 10:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

lol I did misread your comments, Francis Schonken, more than I thought I was capable of misreading anything. I'm bettering myself :-)

After the failure of W2J, I don't see any possible solution via WP:RM (other than holding a new vote restricted to persons already involved in naming conventions only, thus banning ourselves).

The "Władysław II Jagiełło (Jogaila)" aberration has my very reluctant support as some kind of common ground to start a mediation with, or some other avenue to resolve this. To be honest, I find "Jogaila" alone just as deviant from WP:NC... - Best regards, Evv 12:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think I can consider myself fully sucked into the vortex by now... Somehow, given Jogaila's pivotal role in uniting Lithuania and Poland (at that time, Poland was the far smaller of the two--I only mention it, it's not a mine is bigger than yours thing!), anything that's chosen is going to be an abberation. Like pretty much everyone, I do intensely dislike the parentheses; I also find myself agreeing that Jogaila alone is not appropriate. If we agree to be deviants (we probably qualify based on Wiki-time alone...), perhaps something more novel, such as...

Jogaila, Władysław II Jagiełło

I can rationalize this as loosely following "name, title" as the whole metamorphosis from Jogaila the Lithuanian to Jagiełło the Polish monarch was him taking on the whole "package" at once. One day he was Jogaila, the next, still Jogaila, but "Władysław II Jagiełło" joined in marriage with the Polish monarchy, converted to Christianity, given a baptismal name, given a Polish version of his name, and given his royal monarchal "ordinal." Perhaps I've just been staring at it too long with insufficient morning coffee, but it does seem to look a whole lot better without parentheses. Just a thought...
   Given his pivotal and unique role and the significance of the Lithuanian-Polish union (unlike other monarchies which simply expanded territorially over time without substantial changes to the monarchy itself), I find it far more palatable to support any variation that shows both than any variation showing only one. The history of article renamings already proves that an article title which is "the choice of one" is doomed to failure.

• So far in November, the article itself has seen only SIX edits to improve it, plus one bot edit, and one revert to make a correction. I would respectfully suggest we grit our collective teeth and pick something that shows both names and move on to improving the article. Personally, I've gathered some wonderful references (bibliomania), but lately they've all been going to talk page controversies and not at all to improving anything that someone actually reads when they access Wikipedia. It's a sad state of affairs.
  

   And just a P.S. on Władysław II Jagiełło not being English, my POV (!) is that for Latin script languages, it's time for Eastern Europe to stand up for itself and stop being rewritten (primarily based on prior typesetting technology limits). None of the Western European Latin script languages get "anglicized" and there's no need to do it anymore for Eastern Europe either. (And I'm aghast at the energy that's been expended over which anglicized transliteration is the more appropriate!) —Pēters J. Vecrumba 16:28, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, all Western languages, other than English, have anglicized titles. Henry IV of France is an anglicization; it's also English usage. Septentrionalis 20:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

In terms of spellings and dicriticals, I was thinking more basic, you don't take a Spanish name, for example, and transliterate the "ñ" character to "ny" as if it were the "њ" ("n" plus palatization symbol) from Russian. Stone's text is (POV) a beacon demonstrating English sources can write about Eastern Europe and not be compelled to anglicize beyond recognition. Where anglicized forms are common and have been in use for perhaps hundreds of years and are agreed upon, that makes sense. But where they're not (i.e., including pretty much all of Eastern Europe), it doesn't make sense. If there's no consensus on Ladislau versus Ladislav versus Vladislav etc. etc. etc., then the only predictable variant is to use the correct and original one, Władysław. Time to take on Wikipedia naming conventions. (I should mention anglicization is also the opposite of what people have been doing to Latvian proper names, including in titles, citing Wiki conventions as the reason.) —Pēters J. Vecrumba 21:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

   And a P.P.S. On showing both names, at this point, wouldn't it be better if everyone's cup were at least half full instead of one set of cups being full and the other set empty? I'm not one known for compromise, but when the article is rated "B-Class", our priorities need attention. —Pēters J. Vecrumba 16:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

This is part of the reason why Jagiello is popular in English: it's a Polonization of a Lithuanian name. Septentrionalis 20:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

There is a peer review open, btw.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:31, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

As far as these contraventions of WP:NC go, I keep supporting Vecrumba's original "Władysław II Jagiełło (Jogaila)", which I found much better than "Jogaila, Władysław II Jagiełło". - Best regards, Evv 13:40, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A modest proposal

How about we just compartmentalize the problem?

1. As a latecomer and not a party to prior mediations, etc., I boldly/recklessly rename the article to "Jogaila, Władysław II Jagiełło", put in all the redirects and required disambiguation updates and fix all the double redirects.
2. Those offended by the new title, instead of simply reverting and thus leading to a revert war, banning both themsleves and myself from future contributions here, agree to submit to mediation. (And I do promise to revert, I don't see any point to contributing to the article when all that gets done is to vetch about the title--no matter how good a reference I have sitting on my nightstand for bed-time reading.)
3. Mediation is over "No! Pick just mine! (only "Jogaila") versus "No! Pick just mine! (only "Władysław II Jagiełło").
4. That mediation will drag on forever because:
   1. no one will ever agree to their glass being "empty"
   2. no one will ever agree to showing both names, as that was the whole reason for the mediation in the first place
5. The resulting stalemate can then be argued on its (now) own dedicated mediation page which can simply be kept open as long as needed (the historical trend being an infinite amount of time—I can predict with full confidence that at some point in the future, the mediation page will be argued globally in real time via thought encoding/decoding wireless brain implants).
6. In the meantime, this Talk can be archived and put to bed.
7. A new Talk can be created and everyone else can return to improving the article.

I have a bunch of stuff to attend to and have a concert to perform in this coming weekend for Latvian independence day, so I'll check back in a few. I don't think there's anything more I could possibly contribute at this point in an attempt to arrive at a workable solution. :-) —Pēters J. Vecrumba 17:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The spirit behind this modest proposal is laudable :-) but let's follow the proper channels, waiting for what may come from eventual mediations or arbitrations. - Best regards, Evv 13:40, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I thought we were just continuing to discuss. If we manage to achieve an acceptable level of disgruntlement on the part of all, that would be better than winding up in arbitration which will surely leave a large number unacceptably disgruntled. Do, please, record your latest "vote". :-) —Pēters J. Vecrumba 19:37, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I think the problem is compartmentalized; it's confined to this talk page ;->. As for editing the article, I encourage anybody to do so; any of these titles will work with the text, as long as we leave the first sentence alone to introduce both local names. Septentrionalis 18:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Still lurking, break while working late... One thing to consider is that when using a single name subsequent to "Polonization" that the article should be using Jagiełło and not Władysław. —Pēters J. Vecrumba 00:05, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually the proper name of the article (according to Wiki rules) should be Władysław II of Poland. We insited on Władysław II Jagiełło just because we wanted to offer a version that would be a compromise. Jagiełło is a polonized version, Jagiello a latinized one, Jogaila a lithuanized one (it's not that we know what he was called back then in Lithuanian) and Jogaila was never used in reference to the king. However Jagiello was used both in reference to him as the king of Poland and as the overlord of Lithuania. So I think that Władysław II Jagiello (with the latinized form of Jagiello) should be a compromise. Otherwise it's like writing "Henry, Henri" in a title.--SylwiaS | talk 21:13, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Ignoring all the untruths there ... if this is a common idea here of a compromise, then it's hardly surprising this talk has been so long and so bitter. How about Jogaila Algirdaitis? Does that seem like a fair compromise? Exactly! There's a line in Curb Your Enthusiasm, "the best compromises are those in which both parties feel dissatisfied" or something'ong these lines. Maybe both sides should be looking for something like that. Jogaila (Władysław II) seems fair to me, or even Władysław II (Jogaila). Ignoring that, Jogaila is pretty much the simplest and least controversial of names ... but apparently not. There have been a number of names suggested which I think could be fair, but every time someone finds some reason to reject it. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 23:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I did not managed to follow discusion properly, but Władysław II (Jogaila) is unacceptable. M.K. 16:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

What about Jogaila (Władysław II) or Jogaila (Władysław II Jagiełło)?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  22:47, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Would leaving it just as it is now, be the end of the world? It pretty much covers all the bases and with the proper redirects allows anyone to find any necessary information about him. Dr. Dan 14:09, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I repeat my question: Which nation does the name variant Jagello favor ? Hope to see responses within a couple of days, be they saying "none" or saying name of a nation or several. Shilkanni 21:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I would guess British/American since it's the most popular version of the name in English. Far more popular than any other. Poles would favour Jagiełło and Lithuanians Jogaila.--SylwiaS | talk 21:23, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

"Jagello" (no "i") is Polonesque, but given latest scholarship, a misspelling at best. —Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:25, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Excuse me

Excuse me, but what in the world are you talking about in reference to "assuming a question away"? Did I offend you? You also obviously thought I was conducting a mere numerical poll (by your reincarnation below, which is of no help at all since we've got no idea what the choices look like anymore). I was attempting to go through a process to gather people's preferences--which you've frozen, replaced with your own, and made unrecognizable. I was hoping that:

1. if the diacriticalized "crowd" could come to a consensus (for the lack of a better catagorization, "Poles and Lithuanians"), then
2. we could deal with the un-diacriticalized crowd ("diacriticals are not English and do not belong in an English Wikipedia", i.e., everyone who doesn't use Right-ALT GRE shift on their--in this example, Windows XP--keyboard to shift to diacriticalized character sets on a regular basis) and then, finally
3. people who abstained to say only one name ("two names violate Wiki standards, read article XYZ standard XYZ talk XYZ..."), et al.

in a more structured fashion. (Here, or mediation, or arbitration should it come to that.) Before I decide whether or not there's just a basic misunderstanding here or you're simply unbelievably rude (and in any event I will need to reword your poll into something understandable and my position into something that doesn't sound like I'm laying down a gauntlet) I'd appreciate something a bit more constructive and far less cryptic that "assuming away" and a "replacement poll" which has no examples of anything which is supposedly (?) a Wikified improvement (?) which has had all the process and structure sucked out of it, and which also incorrectly states (your inference) my assertions are not negotiable and I'm (really) excluding all other possibilities. Addressing one thing at a time has a chance. You've reincarnated as let's address everything all at once, which will lead to the same schmutz that's been here for the last year and just be yet another dead-end rehash. Since we know that doesn't work, you might have let me continue to try it my way and see what happens before you preemptively freeze it out of existence on a basis that is described by a phrase which I don't even recognize the meaning of. There's always Talk:Vecrumba and Email requests are set to go to my primary personal Email (the only one I check every day). —Pēters J. Vecrumba 04:09, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

If "The good news is that given the latest scholarship in English, we don't need to feel obligated to argue over the most appropriate decriticalization/transliteration of Władysław (as has also been done over the last year)." is not a declaration of non-negiotiability, it is very poorly phrased indeed. Septentrionalis 04:48, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

My agenda is to push for a solution which we can all agree to, albeit reluctantly, and to start by chopping away the ones that we already know from a year of haggling won't be acceptable to one half of the Polish-Lithuanian contingent (i.e., only one or only the other incarnation). Then at least everyone is happy with part of the solution. From there, we can deal with the rest of the issues (diacritics or not in title, etc.). My favorite choice isn't among the choices I've presented, but I'm not here to lobby for my personal preference. "Negotiating" a solution won't come from starting with a slate of infinitely possible titles--which has been one of the main stumbling blocks to this point. —Pēters J. Vecrumba 20:47, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revised straw poll

Pēters J. Vecrumba asserts that

• the only fair names for this article contain both a Polish name (PN) and a Lithuanian name (LN) and possibly country (C)
• That C must be, if present "Poland-Lithuania".

(Pēters also asserts that PN must be Władysław II Jagiełło but there is evident disagreement on that, both above and here) It is possible that we can agree on these premises.

Should we use both names (and, if necessary, "Poland-Lithuania"?

Yes

No

Double names are undesirable; see the history of Bozen-Bolzano at WP:LAME. Septentrionalis 00:59, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, FYI another discussion on this took place at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions#One_major_shortcoming_with_place_names_and_disputed_territories_.5BProposal.5D

Some other examples that show that double page names (that is an article name containing twice the same word in a different spelling) are generally not successful:

• Airplane-aeroplane → Fixed-wing aircraft (see Talk:Fixed-wing aircraft#Requested move for a WP:RM vote reconfirming this solution a few months ago)
• Aluminum-aluminium → Aluminium (after endless discussions, see Talk:Aluminium/Spelling)
• There were some attempts to make some names originating in the currently bilingual part of Belgium (the region around Brussels) double page names in a "<name in French> <name in Dutch>" format, which failed. Neither do we have Geel-Gheel (both spellings are used in English).

In fact the only *still existing* example of a page name containing the same name in two different languages I know of is Vitoria-Gasteiz. But note that this double name *exists* outside Wikipedia: it is currently used (on road signs etc...) in both the Basque and Castilian parts of the country called Spain.

I don't want to say it is completely unthinkable that we end up with a "double page name" for Jagiełło-Jogaila, but I oppose to presenting this as the only possible solution at a moment that in general Wikipedians tend to reject such solutions.

I'd be tempted to make our next WP:RM on this page "Jogaila → Jagiello" (see also Pmanderson-Septentrionalis' suggestion below). This would make more sense to me, as Jagiello is a quite common anglicization of the name that in modern Polish is "Jagiełło" and in modern Lithuanian is "Jogaila". --Francis Schonken 09:56, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Which of the following formats do you find acceptable? Add more if helpful.

LN, PN

LN, PN of C

PN (LN)

PN (LN) of C

Other

I am certain I find some varieties of this acceptable, like Jagiello as a way of evading the question. Some of Francis's doubts whether any double name is reasonable also appeal; but I may vote for the others later. Septentrionalis 22:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I do not understand, is this yet another official moving poll; but i do not see any template above? Can anybody clarify that is going on, please very please?

No, this cannot be a move request; it appears to be an effort to produce consensus on the single question: if we use both names, how do we put them together? If you don't approve of this, please say so; I did. Septentrionalis 00:53, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

One reason I object above so strongly, I think, is that all of Pēters' variants include only my least favored choices. For the record, I have no problem with Poland-Lithuania; we'll see if anybody does. Septentrionalis 22:48, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

How is the straw poll above different from this contraption?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:50, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Chiefly because it doesn't include about half the options; but if Pēters wants to unify the people who want both names, this is the way to do it. If you want to ignore it or kill it, fine by me; I am myself the precedent. Septentrionalis 00:10, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Building a name piece by piece

I think I speak for many when I say that a move from Jogaila will not be approved until it's to a name that accurately reflects his importance to both Poland and Lithuania. I think Pēters has offered a lot of constructive input, but finding the right name won't be as easy as one vote. I propose that the only way is to take a series of votes. If agreement breaks down at any one point, we'll have to go back to the beginning. I see the process unfolding something like this.

1. Should the title have both names in it?

2. If so, should it be a dash, comma, or parentheses

3. Who goes first (this will be a tough one)

4. Which variant of Wladyslaw

5. titles? countries? numbers?

Otherwise, I don't see this article leaving Jogaila anytime soon--not that Jogaila is wrong, just incomplete. Leo1410 16:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC) PS. Wikipedia is not the place for new exciting breakthroughs in scholarship, and I realize this could result in a name that doesn't fit WP:NC or WP:UE perfectly, but for Jag/Jog, I don't think there is such a perfect name that would do so. In addition, such a process of give and take would provide ample opportunity for Polish and Lithuanian editors to demonstrate good will to one another.

Pēters Vecrumba contributions have been welcomed indeed, as is your current attempt :-) However, I would add three points for the beggining of that list:

0 a. Should the title follow WP:NC & WP:UE ?

0 b. If not, why ?

0 c. If not, how would this precedent affect all other articles ?

Best regards, Evv 20:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I can take 0 c.: Hardly at all; Wikipedia is inconsistent, and this case is extraordinary. Septentrionalis 02:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

In all honesty, I don't understand how is this case extraordinary. - Evv 03:08, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

What other ruler not only ruled two realms, but changed his name (as opposed to, say, translating it) when he gained the second one? Septentrionalis 04:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

But... in which way does that hinder adherance to the current naming conventions ? - Evv 18:08, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

There may be a need to revise naming conventions for cases like this, or for Eastern Europe in general. While in Western Europe if Carlos, Grand Duke of Castalonencia is crowned Karl III of Freidlenbergen but is called Charles the Third in English it's an easy case. But in this case, Grand Duke of Lithuania is not necessarily an inferior or subordinate title to King of Poland. The medieval Grand Dukes were powerful sovereign monarchs and weren't kings only because they weren't Catholic. There is no proof that he ceased to be Jogaila of Lithuania after he became Wladyslaw of Poland. With struggle, he ceded de facto power to Vytautas but kept the supreme title and tried to secure Lithuania after Vytautas' death. The man's English name Ladislaus has passed out of the common usage and is unacceptable to most editors here. He is called both Jogaila and Wladyslaw in current English scholarship depending which country the English text is focused on. Precedent is a concern, but if Jogaila moves to Wladyslaw II Jagiello then shouldn't Wladyslaw III of Poland move to Ulaszlo of Hungary, and similar moves for monarchs who acquired more titles later in life? As for 0a, 0b, and 0c, I'm sure the issues would come up, and have come up, in any discussion on moving to a two-name system. It can't hurt to try though. Leo1410 04:43, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Informal Straw Poll #793

Leaving aside, for now, considerations of who goes first, titles, spellings, etc. are there any circumstances where you would favor a move to a name that includes both Jogaila (as Jogaila not as Jahello, Jagiello, etc.) and a variant of Wladyslaw?

[edit] Yes

1. Leo1410 04:43, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
2. Very reluctantly, I would support "W2J (Jogaila)" - Evv 18:05, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
3. Pēters J. Vecrumba 20:49, 21 November 2006 (UTC) since we'll never get agreement to ignore one in the title in preference to the other
4. Not my top choice, but progress compared to current 'just Jogaila'.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  22:11, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
5. I hope this could solve the problem. --Beaumont (@) 22:44, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No

1. Doc15071969 21:46, 21 November 2006 (UTC) No, but I'd support "Jogaila (Jagiello)" (or the diacritic version) as the versions that include W and numeral should, IMO, lead into disambig. page for the reasons stated earlier

Oops. This vote is yes for two names I didn't mean for Jogaila(Jagiello) to be excluded. I just wanted to avoid claims that Jagiello is a variant of Jogaila an that W2J includes both by itself Leo1410 22:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

1. To the question as posed, absolutely not. To the broader question of two names, possibly, but not those two in combination. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:09, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I can see that the way I wrote the question has not had the effect I was hoping for. I should have just asked if people were willing to accept a "Lithuanian" name (Jogaila) and a "Polish" name (any of the ones that have been discussed). My intent was to see if a two-name solution was feasible, which I think it is to both you and Doc. Once we establish willingness for two names, then we can begin the process of establishing what those names should be. Leo1410 19:10, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stone, also English usage

It appears that Stone's "Jogaila (Jagiełło)" chapter in question (and I have not proofed against the original) is available here». I'm up to my eyeballs and then on the road, I'll be checking back in later in the week. Also, regarding the debate on diactiricals, I went to that talk page in Wiki conventions to argue the "diacritics can/should be considered current English usage." We'll see what develops there. I argued (we'll see how persuasively) that it makes more sense, and it is in keeping with current references, to use the native Polish usage (for Władysław and Jagiełło) and then have all the redirects for all the infinite semi-transliterated "English" versions. It's not whether the name is "English", it's whether it's appropriate "English usage." I thought at least that debate should be done elsewhere in a more appropriate venue here», then look for Technology, not "it's not English," is why diacritics were historically stripped in English. —Pēters J. Vecrumba 21:36, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

How can we be sure that Stone is not a Lithuanian nationalist, and that his real name isn't Stonas? Dr. Dan 23:26, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

lol Evv 17:54, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

lol here too... and a good question nevertheless. Stone is a Polish historian (as in an academic specializing in the history of Poland), so there would be no "pro-Lith" bias to his naming syntax--but then he would have a tendency, perhaps, to use Polish diacritics properly. I'll be checking the diactritics discussion next. :-) —Pēters J. Vecrumba 20:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jogaila vs Vytautas

Tokul 20:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

"He was the last pagan ruler of mediaeval Lithuania, the last to hold the title of Didysis Kunigaikštis, and the first to adopt Christianity. With the support of the Teutonic Order he managed to win the struggle for power against his cousin, Vytautas."

I suspect that this represents Polish side of story. Vytautas had several aggrements with Teutonic Order. He "sold" Samogitia to crusaders several times, left his brothers (I think, Butautas and Tautvilas) as hostages, fought together with Poles, Russians and Karaims in the battle of Grunwald and ruled Lithuania as Grand Duke. After all turnmoil Samogitia remained part of Lithuania and was babtized by Vytautas. Sigismund II Augustus was crowned as Grand Duke in Lithuania and as King in Poland. Later rulers got both titles in one ceremony. Last Grand Duke of Lithuania was Stanislaus II of Poland. Mindaugas was babtized before Jogaila.

As a matter of fact this was added by one of Lithuanian nationalists and I decided to leave it in order not to enrage anyone. However, you're right that he was neither the last pagan nor the first Christian ruler in Lithuania. But if that's how Lithuanian historiography presents him - fine with me. //Halibutt 23:13, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Which Lithuanian nationalist did you mean, Hali, was it Calgacus or Angus McLellan? Dr. Dan 17:11, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I am Lithuanian. History is one of my favorite things. In Lithuanian history (A.Šapoka "Lietuvos istorija") Vytautas is more important than Jogaila. Jogaila killed his uncle, Vytautas's father and went to Poland for king's crown. Vytautas remained loyal to his country. If you want, I can find all the references and dates when Vytautas went to crusaders and offered them Samogitia for support and peace. I liked that part of history, because Vytautas played diplomatic games with crusaders and won.

I don't think that I am nationalist. Lithuanian nationalist would say that Vytautas commanded all troups in Grunwald. If article on Jogaila contains negative writeups about Vytautas, it represents Polish side of history. Vytautas the Great ruled Lithuania after Jogaila from 1392/1401 to 1430. After his death title went to Švitrigaila, Jogaila's brother. Švitrigaila is not part of Jogaila's dinasty. He is Algirdaitis, son of Algirdas. Jogailaičiai ruled Lithuania only since 1440, when Casimir IV of Poland got title of Grand Duke of Lithuania. Vytautas (Kęstutaičiai dinasty) and Jogaila (Algirdaičiai dinasty) fought for control of Grand Dutchy of Lithuania. Eventually title went to Jogailaičiai, but that was after Vytautas and Jogaila died.

Some parts of our history are contraversial. If you decide to put your Polish-Lithuanian history in wiki, you should understand that Lithuanians won't like some parts of it.(Tokul 18:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC))

[edit] GA nomination On Hold

This article was nominated for WP:GA, but no nomination template was placed on this talk page. I placed one for you, backdated.

I was ready to accept this article as GA. The sticking point causing me to place it On Hold is the debate regarding naming conventions that is apparently taking place. This is an issue of stability, covered in attribute (5) within WP:WIAGA.

The article could also use some copyediting for run-on sentences and incorrect article usage [i.e., "a" and "the"]. But considering the depth and breadth of coverage in this article, I would not consider that a barrier to GA status.

Thanks --Ling.Nut 03:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh PS punctuation should be placed before the <ref> tag, not after it.

--Ling.Nut 03:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The naming debate has been raging for over a year now. I wouldn't bet it will end before another one passes... :> -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  03:25, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry to hear that. This is a very interesting article. Well, as a matter of form, I'll wait 7 days and cross my fingers for consensus on a solution. If none is reached, I'll mark it as a failed GA. You can always re-nominate it.

--Ling.Nut 03:32, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

At the very least, we can use the week for copy-editing. -Fsotrain⁰⁹ 03:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Important PS: I just remembered... if we have to fail the GA you have a second option. You can immediately list it on Wikipedia:Good articles/Review. There's a chance that things might go in your favor there. It's worth a try, anyhow.--Ling.Nut 04:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the location is fairly stable: It will probably stay here until (somehow) consensus emerges; and then it will be moved once (or not at all, as the case may be). Since, as remarked above, the dispute doesn't involve the text, it should even escape edit wars. Septentrionalis 16:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I was asked to comment on this article by Ling, so i'd like to start by asking, this naming dispute, is this over the name of the article or a name that changes some content? Because if its just a single name I don't think that's really a content dispute since there's not much content involved :/. Homestarmy 15:30, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The content seems to be fairly successfully using different names for different periods of the subject's life; one problem here is that he had one name when he was Grand Duke of Lithuania, and a different name (and religion) after he also became King of Poland. I don't think a change to any of the suggested names would require any change of the content; does anyone disagree? Septentrionalis 16:27, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the dispute is about the article title but any moves should not affect content (names as used within the article). And that's a bright side in this long play...-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:34, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

• (remove indents) I don't want to start an argument -- and don't want to become embroiled in the ongoing discussion, because I am not actually qualified to hold an opinion in any way on this issue -- please understand that I am asking innocently and naively -- but why don't you simply devote two or perhaps three very neutrally-worded sentences in the lead of the article to the issue of naming controversy? And as for the name itself -- is this historical figure listed in Encyclopedia Brittanica? If so, then why not follow that precedent, and state the reasons why many people feel the precedent may be inadequate?
• If my question is offensive then I apologize, and ask that you please extend to me the grace due to someone completely ignorant of the finer points of the discussion...--Ling.Nut 19:03, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

lol Following Britannica's article on Wladyslaw II Jagiello archieved no consensus in the last vote :-) I'm still not entirely sure of the reasons for rejecting this option, but I fear it may be just another attempt to "correct unfair English usage" *sigh*. - Best regards, Evv 20:28, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The last thorough discussion of the issues is here and may be useful; the problem is that this involves several issues, not just Poland/Lithuania. The poll Evv mentioned failed in part because it was a straight reversion of this !vote. Septentrionalis 02:27, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm torn because I think the article is fascinating, and I would really like to see it GA'd, while on the other hand...I just don't know how far we can stretch the definition of stability to include a debate over the name of the article itself (a debate that apparently has longer legs than Shaquille O'Neal).--Ling.Nut 02:37, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

As already mentioned above, the content is stable, and there's no "move war" either. Even a worst-case scenario (having the article very slowly but constantly moving between two or three names ad aeternum) wouldn't really impair readability at all: the body of the article uses all those possible names anyway, each one in the appropiate place. - Go ahead with the nomination :-) - Best regards, Evv 03:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I have to repeat my agreement, I just don't see how one can really bend stability of content to extend to the name of the article :/. (Of course, if there's some super horrible page move edit war, that might start to mess with Google rankings, so in a roundabout way that would affect content due to changes in visibility) Homestarmy 04:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

(remove indents). If someone has time, please do some top-to-bottom copyediting on this article. I've been thinking about this for a while and I agree that the article seems stable enough for GA. I'm gonna PASS it two days from now, and would sincerely appreciate some copyediting in the meantime. Thanks!--Ling.Nut 17:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

This article needs not only top-to-bottom copyediting, but good check of factual accuracy, because “facts” in this article hurting eyes.M.K. 00:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thoughts on the article

Was there something special about Jogaila's pontoon bridge ? If it was just a collection of boats, ropes and planks, then it wasn't anything unusual in medieval warfare. Saint Louis had a bridge of boats built across the Nile during the Seventh Crusade according to Jean de Joinville, and Edward I paid money to have one built over the Menai Strait. Referring to the Teutonic Order as "Teutons" seems strange, but perhaps that's just me. Angus McLellan (Talk) 17:13, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Neither of those is in Europe, strictly speaking, but a source would be nice; The Menai Strait is as impressive as the Vistula. "Teutons" should be "Knights", I think. Septentrionalis 00:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thoughts on the Title

This is to put this argument into another perspective, especially to the uninitiated to either this debate, or the history of the man. One of the great features of Wikipedia is to educate the public at large. You will also find a great deal of information not found in many main stream publications in WP. To my way of thinking, this is a very good thing. The chief argument of those opposed to the Jogaila variation is that "most" previous "English" renditions of the name are of the Jagiello spin. Jagiello is of course simply a Polonization of the original Lithuanian name, Jogaila. Why make a change from this perspective? Evolution of knowledge perhaps? So when one puts in Burma in WP's search engine, and they get Myanmar, or they put in Cracow and the get Kraków, and Peking gets you to Beijing, and now Wladyslaw Jagiello will get you to Jogaila. This is not the end of the world, and it is not only educational, but opens the door to greater understanding of history. And what of the argument of "most previous English renditions"? Surely Cracow, Burma, and Peking would beat out their modern (and perhaps more correct renditions). So as in those cases, the Jogaila variation reflects an evolution of sorts that should be completely understandable to those who prefer Kraków to Cracow. Dr. Dan 01:02, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

For that to be true one would need to show that modern research prefers Jogaila, no such proof has been shown to this date.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

For what to be true? That modern research prefers Kraków to Cracow, or that modern research prefers Myanmar to Burma? Or maybe "modern research" prefers Władysław to Ladislaus? Get serious, "modern research", my foot! Dr. Dan 01:10, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

For [having Jogaila as title to represent or reflect an] evolution of knowldge, [and be] not only educational, but [also to open] the door to [a] greater understanding of history to be true. - Best regards, Evv 01:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure Myanmar is a good example. I believe Aung San Suu Kyi still calls it Burma, quite understandably. That's political, as is Jogaila/Wladyslaw Jagiello. It's not just a case of a different transliteration, as with Peking/Bejing. I would like to see both names in the title; that might seem odd and ugly, but it's like putting up road signs in both Welsh and English, which we have got used to in my country. qp10qp 03:50, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Two thoughts, Qp10qp, first Jogaila vs. Jagiello is in fact a case of a different transliteration. Second as to whether or not Burma(Myanmar) is a good example or not. My point was simply if you put Burma in WP's search engine you get Myanmar. The politics are another issue. My actual change of POV, came as a result of Calgacus' scholarly and very erudite analysis of the entire debate (go to the archives). There was nothing political about it. Best. Dr. Dan 02:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

My point was that Peking and Bejing are both Chinese, so the case of Jogaila/Jagiello (not to mention Wladyslaw) is quite different, as I'm sure you know. And if there isn't a political element to the issue, then I'm an Englishman. (I've read all the discussions, and for some people it's clearly about which nationality gets to name this guy, scholarly and very erudite analysis notwithstanding.) qp10qp 03:35, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I guess you're not an Englishman then, because it's not which nationality gets to name this guy, nor are the French attempting to name him Henri. It's about what his name was. Witold is a Polonization of Vytautas, and Olgierd a Polonization of Algirdas. Although some would like to fantasize that it's the other way around, it's simply not the case. Dr. Dan 21:51, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not just ugly; experience on other articles suggests that the two sides will keep renegotiating the bargain, wanting "their" name to go first or quibbling over the punctuation. Septentrionalis 04:28, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

As I said above, I won't mind Jogaila (Władysław II Jagiello), as I (and other Polish editors) are all for compromise. We would however dearly like to see the 'other' side support anything other than 'Jogaila, Jogaila and Jogaila forever'...-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  05:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Piotrus, are these Polish editors who are all for compromise, the same who keep adding the Polish toponyms for Lithuanian cities like Panevezys or Birzai? Dr. Dan 14:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Dr.Dan, the same editors who have no problem with Lithuanian names in articles of Polish cities (see Suwałki or Augustów), and who don't understand why Lithuanian cities are the only European cities without important names in other languages. Would you like to explain why Augustów can has 'Augustavas', but Trakai doesn't need 'Troki'?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:51, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Prokonsul, why so formal? I thought by now we're like Mishpocha. Fortunately I have a half a day off and can catch up on my necessary dose of WP. Unlike yourself who can spend endless hours on WP (almost if it was like your job), I can't. Nor can I possibly put everything on my watchpage and "police" the whole project. I have been to Sejny and Augustow (have you?), and spent time walking through their old cemeteries. Very educational. Please feel free to remove the non-Polish names, from non-Polish cities, wherever you see fit. If this is not your preference, may I suggest that you get together with Ghirlandajo and Irpen, and ask them which Russian and Ukrainian cities should have their Polish toponyms placed in the leads of their respective articles. Maybe Beaumont can help too. Dr. Dan 18:09, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Dan (if you prefer less formal :> ), I asked you why Lithuanian cities are an exception and I am still waiting for the reply, just as I received no reply for it at Wikipedia:WikiProject Lithuania/Conflict resolution. Polish editors see no need to remove Lithuanian spellings from Suwałki, Sejny or Augustów; as those cities used to have significant Lithuanian population (either in them or in surrounding countryside) and it is a common practice on Wikipedia to note such names in the lead. Neither Russian, Ukrainian, German, French, Czech or editors from any country I know have problems with that solution, as Strasbourg, Cieszyn or Kamianets-Podilskyi to select just three random examples demonstrate. So, I ask you again, why, why, why, why...?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:50, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Since this is somewhat off-topic here, I have answered your query on my talk page (see: Why? Why? Why?). Dr. Dan 14:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes indeed why?; oh why?; oh why again?? and 100..n x times why??. And why your ethnic slur is still in the air?? M.K. 00:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, M.K, for so nicely illustrating the difference between us. While I ask why you remove Polish names often used in English sources and having been once part of a country where Polish language was official and spoken by a significant portions of those cities inhabitants, your examples are: removal of a Lithuanian of a person who is much better known under his Polish name; addition of a geographical Polish name which the editor adding it explained is widely used in various sources, again, this time restoring Polish and German names and an unfounded accusation of an ethnic slur. Keep digging that hole, indeed.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  00:59, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes indeed you perfectly and "nicely illustrating the difference between us". "geographical Polish name which the editor adding it explained is widely used in various sources" it is just another "pearl" as well as rest of your excuses. About "unfounded accusation of an ethnic slur" try to be more attentive next time when reading my statements. M.K. 09:01, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the same. More precisely, it was me. As for Panevėžys can you imagine that a historical name of the city is not offensive and should be mentioned in the article? If in doubt, then we can discuss it on the relevant talk page. Please stop adding sarcastic or provocating remarks, especially as they are not so important and are counterproductive here. --Beaumont (@) 17:00, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

That my friend, is only your opinion. Glad to hear it. And please feel free to "admonish" some of the Polish editors who are all for compromise (like you have demonstrated by your recent contribitions), just to show a little more neutrality. Dr. Dan 17:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Let's make it clear. Anybody who declares or even suggests that "this is a fight" would probably have to discuss it with me (whatever "this" is, I'm still to fresh to believe that we're fighting here). Consider, however, that IMVHO your remarks do have some flavour of attempts to group or divide editors by their nationality and this does not help. BTW, a few days ago, Lithuanian press published some public opinion polls on sympathy for other nations. And here you are - Latvia and Poland were the first. According to Atanas Valionis, for some commentators it was a surprise. Not that much for me. Since I'm getting OT, the last line is that I do believe that there will be some compromise.--Beaumont (@) 18:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

... although difficult to believe it, when confronted with Piotrus' examples above (sigh). This clearly indicates who could show just a little bit more neutrality... --Beaumont (@) 22:18, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

My dear Beaumont, since you are new here, I'm still to fresh (sic), you may have not noticed my lamenting the fact that relations between Lithuanians and Poles on WP are poor, and that fortunately "in the real world", this is not the case. This has been stated by me often enough. On the other hand since you are still too fresh, you do need to read the histories of the articles and talk pages that have led up to this state of affairs as they stand today. And I mean long before Dr. Dan added his contributions. I often asked myself if the ultra-nationalist chauvinism directed towards Lithuania and Lithuanians espoused in these arenas were the wellspring of the hopelessness of Miedzymorze and the cause of these stalemates so often encountered in WP? And Polish-German relations and Polish-Belarusian-Russian-Ukrainian relations are different, yet related, and I dare say thanks to some "editors", not good on WP either. Dr. Dan 23:12, 21 November 2006 (UTC) P.S. Valionis' first name is Antanas.

So do not give up, join my efforts and try to "admonish" nationalists on both sides; as far as I can see, not much symmetry can be observed, especially in the mainspace. And you seem to support this... As for the freshmen, you may have noticed that actually I used at least two quotations from some relevant talk pages, the assertion concerning you included; I still declare publicly that I'm too fresh to believe that we (all) are not able not collaborate. BTW, we (you and I) have already met elsewhere and you clearly tried to suggest the contrary. If you claim that all of this could be the result of some earlier development, then do not disrupt wikipedia to illustrate a point. This never helps. Anyway, our discussion becomes more and more personal and OT, so should not be continued here. If this is really necessary we should move to our talk pages. --Beaumont (@) 08:04, 22 November 2006 (UTC) PS. Thanks for indicating the typo!

Beaumont, are you continuing the path of established author of the name slurs by your Atanas Valionis? M.K. 00:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Please stop flaming, M.K. If you continue to accuse others of ethnic slurs, you may found yourself on WP:PAIN.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  01:07, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I do not flaming, and stop misinterpreting my messages. M.K. 10:41, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

M.K., Beaumont made a typo and acknowledged it. He made a request to delete the whole article as it existed already. Chill out. Dr. Dan 02:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC) p.s. To Piotrus, on the dramatical question of why, why, why (and one more why) . I feel I have stated my reasons in various locations numerous times. As a courtesy to you I will recapitulate them on my talk page very soon, once more. Just need to get Thanksgiving out of the way. Chill out too, and peace. Dr. Dan 02:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

M.K, yes, I did make a typo, sorry. I thought the article was not there, so I stubbed it. BTW, my stub was not that much different from the present Antanas Valionis. Just try to think this way :-)--Beaumont (@) 07:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes indeed. M.K. 09:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Congratulations! Jogaila passed as Good Article

This article is truly fascinating and extremely well-referenced. I hope it will press on to become a Featured Article.

• Kudos to all editors involved!

--Ling.Nut 12:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, and great job guys! I want to particularly thank Halibutt, who has done most work expanding the article, adding inlien citations and even made the family tree. Keep up the good job - this can be a FA with a little effort (let's just reach some compromise on name first, shall we?).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:45, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Prokonsul Piotrus, since you're so pleased with Halibutt's virtual singlehanded expansion of this article (Halibutt, who has done most work expanding the article (sic)), may I suggest that you give him another medal for it. Dr. Dan 17:56, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, that sounds like a good idea - thank you, Dr. Dan, for that suggestion.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:28, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Glad you agree, and while you're at it, maybe you can give me a medal for making the suggestion too. Dr. Dan 03:26, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Done, and done, my Dear Dan!-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  06:28, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I love this sense of moral superiority stemming from the fact that I did the job while others were only bragging at the talk pages. :D //Halibutt 10:38, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

lol Congratulations everyone, especially Halibutt :-) - Evv 13:40, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

And to think there were actually fears that Halibutt had been so upset lately, that we might lose him because he might quit the project. Dr. Dan 14:03, 24 November 2006 (UTC)