Talk:Joe Lieberman

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[edit] Lieberman still is a Democrat

END OF DISCUSSION: On Meet the Press on Sunday, No. 12th, Lieberman stated that he wishes to be referred to as an "Independent Democrat" and that he informed the clerk of Congress that he wished to be labeled as such. (japhy1979)

I think it's inappropriate to refer to Sen Lieberman as an independent because he will be a member of the Democratic caucus in the U.S. Senate until January, whether he wins or loses. --204.108.237.194 22:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

He's also a registered Democrat. User:Jules1236

This is a VERY IMPORTANT point to make. First, Senator Lieberman is still a registered Democrat and has said publically numerious times he is a lifelong democrat and will remain a democrat until the day he dies. His affiliation should be displayed as "independent democrat" wherever it comes up. Although he's running under the party Connecticut for Lieberman he NEVER declared a party change on his voter registration form. Furthermore, if he wins reelection he plans to continue to caucus with the Democrats. Finally, in the state of Connecticut there is an "Independent Party." If one refuses to acknowledge the Senator's allegiance to the Democratic Party he must consider Senator Lieberman an "unaffiliated" candidate.

Right; the Senate's official website still lists him as a Democrat, as it probably will until January (http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm?Name=Lieberman) Rowsdower45 15:45, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Lieberman is a Democrat, and he has never been a member of the CTfL. There is really nothing extraordinary (in the US, at least) about running for another party than the one the candidate in question are registered with. The section on the 06 election is technically accurate, and the information in the lead should be harmonised with it. I will make the necessary changes. --Thorsen 05:45, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

According to this, he'll remain a democrat even after January: [1] Case closed? 66.194.253.20

ok, Sen. Lieberman ran as a member of the "Connecticut for Lieberman" Party after he lost the primary to Ned Lamont. Since he voted in the Primary (For Himself), he had to register as a DEMOCRAT. When he lost the primary, he was STILL REGISTERED AS A DEMOCRAT! He just ran as a member of the CFL. When the senate convenes in January, he will still be a Democrat because he is registered as a democrat. In fact, if he wasn't a democrat, than he wouldn't keep his leadership position in the senate and couldn't vote for leadership in the senate (Majority leader,ETC.) Therefore Lieberman is STILL A DEMOCRAT. he was just running as an independent...he didn't switch parties.--User:soldierboy753 01:22, 11 November 2006

I think it's quite obvious that Joe Gun is still a democrat, for all of the reasons stated above. Is anybody still arguing that he should be listed as an independent? If not, I recommend that Wikipedia declare this particular issue resolved.

There will be a question mark through the opening of the new Senate, and even after that. "D" in the infobox? Seems ok. But prominent mention in the lead of his role in 2006, for at least some time. I would drop the CFL (mindless detail) but retain that he lost the primary and ran against the democratic nominee (I don't recall his name) as a 3rd party candidate.
Look, there will be anxiousness about Lieberman for quite some time. He helped defeat one (or perhaps two) democratic challengers for the house. He set a precedent that sitting senators need not obey primary results. Every time the Bloomberg/new third party rumors float, Lieberman will be one of the first few names that jumps to mind.
Infoboxes may be resolved, but not Lieberman per se. Jd2718 13:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
One more thing: statements by Lieberman himself are important, but when he speaks about himself, he indicates how he wants to be seen, which is not enough. Jd2718 13:20, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The matter of Lieberman's party affiliation is also relevant to the article on the Senate, specifically the tally box under future composition. Recently, different editors have been going back on forth [2] [3] as to whether the future composition is 49 Dems, 49 Republicans, and 2 independents, or 50 Dems, 49 Republicans, and 1 independent (Lieberman being the difference between the two tallies). - Walkiped 06:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Sen. Lieberman has said that he has not ruled out the option of becoming a Republican.

[citation needed] Avt tor 15:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe that came from this article in the New York Times. The quote is:
. . . a senator without a political party.  Mr. Lieberman, a longtime Democrat of Connecticut who was re-elected as an independent and calls himself an “Independent Democrat,” has not ruled out becoming a Republican.
Hope that helps! --Tim4christ17 talk 15:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I changed his party affiliation to "Democrat." I agree with soldierboy753. I think this issue should be firmly settled. This has been changed way too many times, and the dispute is more political than it is factual. The facts are that Lieberman is a registered Democrat, a member of the Senate Democratic Caucus, and a member of the Democratic leadership as a Democratic committee chairman.

The fact that Lieberman has not "ruled out" becoming a member of the Republican Party shouldn't change the fact that he is currently a member of the Democratic Party.

User:Jules1236

Being an "Independent Democrat" reflects more accurately on Lieberman, as he has on numerous occasions crossed party lines on major issues, and has a very centrist viewpoint in the political arena. Ironically Lieberman has been receiving most of his support from Connecticut's Republicans and a large share of unaffiliated voters, while he has lost support among the state's Democrats. Regardless, Lieberman along with Senator Jeffords from Vermont will be considered "swing votes" in the up-coming 110th Congress.

User:wxstorm

[edit] Religious Identity

I changed two fairly glaring issues in the opening paragraph relating to Lieberman's religious identity. First, I changed the opening sentence from "Joseph Lieberman is a Jewish American politician..." to "Joseph Lieberman is an American politician." This prominent religious reference isn't found in any other senators article.

Also, I got rid of the ridiculous reference to him as a "leading anti-Palestinian legislator" also in the opening paragraph. Again, this isn't seen in any other pro-Israel senator's article, and I think this was religously motivated.

The article mentions both his religion and support of Israel, as it should, but none of this belongs in the opening paragraph.

User: Jules1236

[edit] Jewish Person or Jew?

Is there some reason why my change of "Jewish person" to "Jew" was reverted? My usage was correct. JFK is not referred to as a "Roman Catholic person", he is referred to as a "Roman Catholic" An example of the proper use of "Jew" and "Jewish" can be found in Judah P. Benjamin as follows:

He was the second Jew (after David Levy Yulee of Florida) to serve as a U.S. Senator and the first in the cabinet of a North American government, and had the opportunity to be the first Jewish nominee to the U.S. Supreme Court, though he declined the position.

From Etymology of the word Jew:

However, when used as a noun, "Jew" is preferred, as other circumlocutions (e.g. "Jewish person") give the impression that the term "Jew" is offensive in all contexts.


Other senators are not singled out for their religion. "Jewish" is part of his biography. It's inappropriate to single out this religion for special mention in the intro paragraph, as this is not done for others. Avt tor 23:52, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sweet Vacation?

It's okay to mention this in the environmental section, but they way it is written clearly shows an anti-Lieberman bias. Plus, the ontheissues link say nothing about a vacation. If you do have real evidence present it in your link, if not, erase that sentence about the sweet vacation the lobbyists gave him.

[edit] Bush's Favorite?

Who put that "Bush's Favorite Democrat" thing? I couldn't remove it and there is no evidence that he's Bush's favorite Democrat, now is that an appropriate category to have on here!

[edit] Reliable sources

Checks needed on the following for WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:BLP (which demands only the highest quality sources in biographies of living persons).

There may be others; these are only the ones I saw on a quick glance. Are the edus self-published? If so, they must be deleted per WP:BLP. Blogs are not reliable sources. I wasn't sure on some of the others. Sandy 13:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The Gamespot website is owned by the tech news media company, CNET and is a well-known source for video game-related articles but it is debatable for an American politican biography. It could have a better source. That story could have be easily replaced with the Reuters article that was being cited by Gamespot, however I can't find it. I'm assuming Reuters gets rid of their old syndicated articles. --4.253.35.149 19:44, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Nevermind, I found it. I will replace the Gamespot link with Reuters/Forbes. --4.253.35.149 19:52, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Hotline is run by National Journal. It was a direct quote from Schumer. I dont think there's a reliability issue here

[edit] "Website Hacked" Claims

I added a section about this, with all the info I have. If anyone has anything to add, please do. And please discuss drastic edits here before going ahead and deleting a whole paragraph or two.--Zaorish 13:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Zaorish, please familiarize yourself with WP:BLP; any poorly-sourced criticism on BLPs is deleted from article *and* talk pages. Sandy 14:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Sandy, I was not aware of that policy. Thanks for showing it to me.

If WP:BLP demands a source for any news at all, then I can go and put back the same information with pointers to the news articles I got it from. I don't have time now, but I'll do it later.

-->I don't understand what you mean by "criticism", I was only reporting the *claims* of two sides of a story now under investigation. Could you please explain? And, if you consider what I wrote "criticism", then there is boatloads of that stuff in the talk archives here. Why is it not deleted?

--Zaorish 15:29, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Zaorish, I can't keep up with all of it: I can only keep up with what I see. Statements added to BLPs should be well referenced. There are plenty of places where you can source those comments: just do it. Sandy 15:45, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] NPOV?

I clicked here to see the NPOV rational but there's none here! Why is that tag still on the page? ~~ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.2.249.168 (talk • contribs).

Check the archives. Smedley Hirkum 16:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Endorsements

The endorsements section is now irrelevant since Joe lost the primary. I added a little note above the endorsements stating they were inaccurate since so many people who endorsed Joe in the primary have endorsed Ned in the general. Can we delete this and instead link to the Connecticut Senate race page?? --Smedley Hirkum 16:22, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I would support moving it somewhere; not needed here. Sandy 16:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
What are you talking about? Sure, he lost the primary, but he's still running. The endorsments are still accurate. dposse 16:40, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The endorsements aren't even accurate in the first place. Lieberman got the support of all of Connecticut's state legislators? That can't be true. And the cited source doesn't work. --Smedley Hirkum 22:39, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree: I'd like to see them on the election page, rather than his personal page, to help keep the more static info here, and the dynamic info there. It's too hard to keep up with things in so many places. Sandy 16:43, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Smedley, let's get a drive for consensus, which we had before the LionO Stephenzhu revert war. All of this election stuff needs to go to the election article. Much of it is poorly sourced and poorly written, yet repeated in the election article, creating double work: we need to get it to one place so it can be cleaned up. Sandy 22:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I propose we delete our endorsements page (because it's inaccurate) and shorten the election section considerably, linking to the Senate Race article instead.

--Smedley Hirkum 22:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Like I said on the archived talk versions, I don't care where it ends up, just that we get all in one place. Right now, the series of articles are a mess, with repeated info, unreferenced info, limited adherence to BLP, need for copy editing. I support any move that gets the election stuff consolidated, for clarity and easy of editing. I keep deleting the same blogs from 3 articles ! Sandy 23:02, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I propose pretty drastic changes, cutting the election portion of the article by, say 60-75%. Should we vote on this or something? --Smedley Hirkum 23:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm in favor of drastic change. The editing chore if we don't consolidate is ridiculous. There is an article for the election, all of the election material should be there. This is one small part of Joe Lieberman's entry, and right now, all of the articles are sloppy. I don't know who will help build consensus. Let's give it some time and see if anyone disagrees? Sandy 23:07, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't we keep this infomation as it was accurate during the primary? Also, Let's try to find infomation on who is supporting him for the November election before we delete everything. Working togther now will solve problems later. dposse 23:40, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I just re-read above: I didn't mean we should delete anything, just get all the election info to one place. I wouldn't have a problem with keeping a list of those who endorsed Lieberman in the primary here (since that info isn't needed in the general election article), but think it would be better (now) converted to a simple, prose paragraph. These articles look awful. Sandy 02:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Let's do that with the CT senate race page, not this one. I say we delete this list. --Smedley Hirkum 23:42, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm also in favor of drastically cutting down the "Democratic primary" section of the article. --MZMcBride 00:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't know that the endorsements should have ever been listed so completely on Lieberman's bio. That's something more appropriate for a campaign web site than an encyclopedia article. I can't think of any other bio on wikipedia that lists all the endorsements a person received in a single election, even if that election was a current one. Furthermore, leaving the endorsements on the page could mislead readers since many of those who endorsed Lieberman in the primary have announced they will support Lamont, the Democratic nominee, in the general election. Are the endorsements being moved or deleted?Jim Campbell 02:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree 100% Jim. I wanted the endorsements gone from the beginning. I say we delete the endorsements and refer people to the CT Sen race article. --Smedley Hirkum 05:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Okay, based on the consensus here, I've deleted the "endorsements" section. The endorsements were already listed on the page for the election, so I didn't need to add them there. If any editors have a problem with the removal of the endorsements, let them revert now or forever hold their piece.
I have a procedural question. If a consensus has been reached and acted upon, how long does the talk page have to reflect that? Specifically, how long do we wait until deleting this thread from the talk page? --Jim Campbell 16:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
We don't delete threads from talk pages: we periodically archive talk pages, when discussions are closed. What's the hurry? Sandy 20:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
NO hurry, just wondering when that gets done. --Jim Campbell 17:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Party status should change

moved from: [4] dposse 20:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

When this page is unprotected, Lieberman's party status should be changed from Democratic Party (US) to Independent (politician). He has stated his intention to run against the Democratic candidate. Thesmothete 03:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, isn't he both? Independent means that he's not running for the Party in this years election, but that doesn't mean that he isn't still a democrat. Why should it be only Independent when he's only being a Independent for this one election? dposse 04:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, by way of example, what if he was "for this one election" running as a Republican? Would we still call him a Democrat? We might say that he was a Democrat, but not that he is one. The template uses both, and I think that makes sense. But he should not be listed unqualfiadly as a Democrat in any general sense, such as had been the case in the opening sentence. Thesmothete 04:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Then not only would he be going against his political beliefs by running as a republican, he would destroy any chance of winning by alienating himself from a completely blue state. It should be listed as both because he is still a democrat, but he's running in this election as a Independent. dposse 04:35, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Respectfully, that's missing the point. The point is that to be a Democratic politician, by definition you must support (or at least not oppose, certainly not run against) the Democratic nominee for the office. You can't run in and lose the Democratic primary and then merrily still be a Democratic candidate for office. Otherwise, why would the Democrats have a primary at all? Thesmothete 05:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Article 8, section 1 of the Democratic party charter states that the Democratic Party is open to all who desire to support the party and who wish to be known as Democrats. If he decides to run as an Ind, Lieberman is showing he doesn't support the party.--riffic 06:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Not until and unless the papers are filed. Expect every senior member of the party to sit on him --Gorgonzilla 05:02, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

He had something like 48 percent of the vote. The petition should be ok. dposse 05:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Lieberman is still a democrat. This article states infomation about his past, when he was a democrat. His political views are democratic on the Political spectrum. He is just running as an Independent as a title so he can keep his job. It should be listed as both because not only is he still a democratic, this article states factual content about his past where he was a democrat. I added a reference to the "political party" Independent thing so than it shows that he is running as a Independent in this one election. dposse 20:16, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

All the same, Lieberman may have had a fighting chance if he had the "balls" to appear on the Colbert Report for his interview. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cagreen20614 (talk • contribs).

Please sign your talk page entries by putting 4 tildes ~~~~ after your entry. Sandy 20:27, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


  • Lieberman's concession speech last night and his appearance on CNN's American Morning today represent a de facto resignation from the Democratic Party. As such, his party status should change to solely "independent," even after he drops out of the Senate race. ---FoodMarket talk! 20:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
First of all, he has not made any indication that he's withdrawing from this Senate race, although I suppose it's a possibility in the future.
Secondly, he did not resign from the Democratic Party.
He has already stated-repeatedly-that if he is re-elected he will caucus with the Democrats in the United States Senate.
Simply because he was defeated in this primary, and is not going to be the Democratic nominee in this election, does not mean that he has renounced his ties to the Democratic Party.

Ruthfulbarbarity 21:53, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

This whole conversation is very confusing: for Wikipedia, his party status changes only when a *very* (WP:BLP) reliable source says it changed. Any other change here is original research. Sandy 22:04, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

What is the not-out-of-date source that says he is a Democrat? The default should be that a candidate has NO party affiliation (D) (R) (G) (S) or (I) until it has been established what that candidate's party affiliation is. There is a Democrat running for Senate. It is true, and there are many sources, that he WAS a Democrat. But where is the reliable source that says that he IS? All we know is that he is on the ballot as an independent candidate -- that's been widely reported. Can anyone find a Democratic Party website updated since the election that says he is, currently, a Democrat? Thesmothete 22:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I think you're misuderstanding the issue here.
No one is asserting that Joe Lieberman is the Democratic nominee for this seat-nor asserting that Ned Lamont is not the official Democratic nominee-or that he is not running as an independent candidate, .
Those are indisputable, established facts.
However, the contention that he is no longer a registered Democrat, or that he has abjured any affiliation with the Democratic Party is not a fact.
In fact, there is no tangible evidence supporting this claim.
Perhaps he will leave the Democratic Party in the future, but that is merely speculation and conjecture at this point in time, not factual evidence.

Ruthfulbarbarity 22:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

But see riffic's comment, above. Is there no other act, short of their own explicit renunciation, that could make someone not a Democrat? According to the Democrat's own platform, the criterion is support for the Party. He's opposing the Party's nominee; how else would you "not support" the party? It does appear that Lieberman is registered in Connecticut as a Democrat, but is that conclusive evidence of "Democrat"ness? What if he voted for Frist for Majority leader? Still a Democrat then? Perhaps the undisputed facts are that 1) he CLAIMS to be a Democrat, 2) he is REGISTERED as a Democrat, and 3) he filed to run AGAINST the official Democratic Party nominee as an Independent (another form of party registration, I might add...).Thesmothete 22:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not familiar with CT's election laws, so I don't know if placing your name on the ballot as an independent candidate nullifies your enrollment in another political party.
What I do know is that Joe Lieberman has never expressed any desire to leave the Democratic Party, and has reiterated his intention to caucus with the Democrats, should he win re-election as an independent candidate.
The Democratic Party platform in this respect is of dubious value.
There are many Democratic candidates who have broken with the Democratic Party platform, and even voted against Democratic presidential nominees, and yet still remained members of the Democratic Party, even members of the Democratic caucus within Congress.
Gene Taylor voted for each one of the articles of impeachment brought against former President Clinton, and yet he remains a member of the House Democratic minority in good standing.

Ruthfulbarbarity 23:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Thesmothete, your argument is original research. He's the Democratic senator from CT, and he's a Democrat on Wiki until a reliable source says otherwise. Sandy 23:16, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand your argument. It's incontravertible he is not running as part of the Democratic Party, but rather a party he just created called "Connecticut for Lieberman". You don't get to lose a Democratic primary and still run as part of the Democratic party. Isn't the petition for signatures to start a political party "Conneticuts for Lieberman" good enough for WP:BLP? "Lieberman also filed papers with the secretary of the state's office Monday to create a new party called Connecticut for Lieberman." - AP. He is not running as part of the Democratic party but as of a third-party called "Connecticut for Lieberman. Are you saying he's still a Democrat now but he's not running as a Democratic candidate, because I will agree with that. --kizzle 00:07, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I think "Democratic senator" means he's a member of the Senate Democratic Caucus, which as far as I know is still true, and it would be huge news if it changed (e.g. Jeffords quit the Republican caucus, and every now and then a Congressmember gets booted out of their caucus, usually the result of a scandal). It doesn't just mean he's registered as a Dem on the CT voter rolls. But if he's reelected as an independent, I think JL will probably still try to stay in the Dem caucus, and IMO he'd be permitted to stay. So, I'd describe him as a Democratic senator running for reelection on an independent ticket after losing his party's primary. Phr (talk) 00:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
He is not running as a member of the Democratic Party, and no one here is asserting otherwise.
That does not negate the fact that he's still a registered Democrat-to the best of my knowledge-or that he intends to caucus with the Democratic Party if he is re-elected on a third party line this November.
As mentioned above, he is also still a member of that caucus for the time being.
That hasn't changed.

Ruthfulbarbarity 00:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the term "Democrat" is not well-defined. There are, apparently at least three ways a person could be a Democrat. 1) registered to vote in the Democratic primary of their state of residence, 2) a participant in the Democratic Caucus of the body in which they hold office, and 3) The possessor of or opponent of, the Democratic Party endorsement for office. Usually, all are the same. Here they are not. Therefore it is inappropriate to use the word "Democrat" to describe Lieberman when he is the opponent of the Democrat. I don't think it constitutes original research to ask where we would find the originial source for who is and isn't an unqualified (meaning no asterisk) Democrat. Another way to put it is that his status as a Democrat is disputed. That disputation a verifiable fact. I'll provide citations if needed, but I feel it should be obvious. Thesmothete 00:54, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

1. This wikipedia article states infomation about his past. In his past, he has always been a democrat.

2. Last night, he stated that he is going to be a "Independent Democrat". I'm trying to find a video of that, but have had no luck of that so far.

3. His political beliefs are still that of a Democrat. His followers are all democrats.

4. He is becoming an "Independent Democrat" in a final attempt to save a job that he has held for years.

5. I put a citation in the infobox to a MSNBC article where it states that he is running as a Independent Democrat for this election. It says NOTHING about the future.

I don't know why this isn't good enough for you. It's logical, isn't it?dposse 01:04, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

You left out the part where he explicitly filed under the political party called "Connecticuts for Lieberman". This party is a distinct entity from the "Democratic Party". He can call it whatever he wants, and we can attribute that he has said he is running as an "Independent Democrat", but his actual party affiliation for the purposes of the November election is of the newly formed "Connecticuts for Lieberman," a separate and distinct entity from the "Democratic Party." This point is indisputable. --kizzle 01:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I think we just have to be precise about what we're expressing. I'm fine with calling him a Democratic Senator as long as he's a member of the Dem senate caucus. He's certainly not a "Democratic candidate" for the 2006 election (that's what the primary decided) but he's accurately a Democratic senator running as a petitioning candidate. I think dposse's point #1 above is accurate; point #2 is accurate but irrelevant to an objective description (it just states JL's opinion; JL could similarly say he's the Queen of Sweden but that wouldn't make it true); point #3 is POV and not relevant; point #4 is meaningless since "Independent Democrat" doesn't mean anything; point #5 mentions an MSNBC article about "Independent Democrat" but I can't find those words in the article. Nonetheless, I'm satisfied with the current (revision 68732856) phrasing in the infobox, that states both "Democratic" and "Independent". Phr (talk) 01:36, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. --kizzle 01:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Then we are in agreement that the way it is now, stating him as "Democrat, Independent", is ok. ^_^ dposse 01:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
This whole argument strikes me as tedious and off-topic.
He will be on an independent, third party line this general election.
He will not be a representing the Democratic Party ticket in the state of CT this November.
That does not mean, however, that he is no longer a Democrat.
It seems pretty simple to me.

Ruthfulbarbarity 02:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

To be clear: I'm ok with the infobox since it expresses "independent" and "democrat" separately (the two terms apply in different ways, as we've discussed). I don't like the intro section's description "Shortly afterward, he announced he would run in the 2006 November election as an independent Democrat on the 'Connecticut for Lieberman' ticket.", which cites an MSNBC article that actually says "Unbowed, Lieberman immediately announced he would enter the fall campaign as an independent." The MSNBC article does not use the phrase "independent Democrat" and we should not use that neologism. Even if we do find a cite for that phrase somewhere, it should be attributed to its source, rather than simply cited as a neutral fact. CT election law forbids 3rd party candidates from using terms like "democrat" in their party names for a reason, and so any use of "independent Democrat" should be considered POV. Phr (talk) 02:07, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Try to get a video his speech last night. It states it there. Or i suppose we could try to find a news story that says that, or just reword the paragraph. (i vote for rewording) dposse 02:13, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Since there is no consensus on how Lieberman's party should be listed on the infobox, we should probably leave it as is. However, unless “Independent Democrat” is the name of a party, the intro section should continue to read that he is running as an independent. The article itself will clarify Lieberman’s position that, if he wins as an independent candidate, he’ll caucus with the Democrats.
-Jim Campbell 02:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Technically speaking, regardless of what Lieberman says himself, the party he has registered under is called "Connecticuts for Lieberman". If he says he's running for the Queen of England, we don't put "Queen of England" party under party affiliation. There is no "Independent Democratic" party, so the infobox I think should stay the same. Democratic, Independent (Connecticuts for Lieberman). Democratic because he's a Democratic senator until elections. Independent because of the ticket and party formed by petition after that. --kizzle 03:07, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Whether Lieberman caucuses with the Democrats if relected is partly up to the Dem caucus and not entirely up to Lieberman. He's said he'll vote with the Dems on procedural issues, which is the current situation with Jeffords and Sanders (neither of whom are in the Dem caucus but they haven't asked to join it). I don't think JL is likely to get expelled from the caucus involuntarily, but it's not impossible (I remember there was some agitation to get Zell Miller kicked out for supporting the Republicans so often, though I don't know how serious it got). Caucuses hold private meetings to discuss political strategy, and so they might well boot a member who they think is leaking info to the other side. I think Jim Traficant was kicked out of the Dem caucus after his criminal conviction but I'm not certain of this (he was eventually kicked out of the House altogether). I wonder what other examples exist. Btw, I did modify the intro to say JL is running as an independent instead of "independent Democrat". I haven't checked whether anyone changed it since then.Phr (talk) 03:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I support the emerging consensus that the infobox should say "Democrat, Independent". I think the only thing I would oppose is that the infobox or any other reference to Joe Lieberman *unqualifiedly* call him a Democrat. So for example, I would oppose a statement that he is "a Democratic US Sentor from Connecticut" because that's disputed. However, I would support calling him "a US Senator from Connecticut who <either or both> caucuses with the Senate Democrats/won his seat with the Democratic nomination". I don't think anyone has disagreed with this, either. I'm glad we seem to be making progress. Thesmothete 03:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

He isn't both democratic and independent. He's Democratic now, but if he wins next term he will be an Independent under the Connecticut for Lieberman party. Can't we explain that?

I don't think it's seriously disputed that JL is (as of today) a Democratic senator from Connecticut. He's still in the Senate, he's still from Connecticut, he still is in the Senate Democratic Caucus and serves on various Senate committees as a Democrat, he's still a registered Democratic voter, etc. That may all change (especially the committee assignments) if he's elected as an independent (I don't know whether "reelected" is the right word for that situation) in November, but we're talking about today. There's some pressure from Lamont supporters for the Dem leadership to strip JL's committee assignments immediately if JL doesn't drop his independent run, but I don't know if the leadership is taking such suggestions seriously. As of right now I'd say JL is clearly still a Dem Senator in any reasonable "official" sense, just like Zell Miller was officially a Dem Senator all the way to the end (even though Miller endorsed Bush in 2004 and was the keynote speaker for the 2004 GOP convention and an awful lot of other Dems wanted to rip his lungs out). One can of course hold the opinion that JL is not a "real" Democrat in terms of philosophy or whatever, or speculate that he might get booted from the caucus sometime in the future, but those are different issues. I think if someone well-informed describes JL as a non-Democrat, they're speaking philosophically rather than literally. He stops definitely being a Democratic Senator only if either 1) he himself announces it, 2) the party leadership announces he's been booted; 3) he leaves the Senate. There's only a real dispute if he says one thing and the party leadership says another, and that hasn't happened (at least yet).

How a Senator got elected isn't terribly conclusive about what party that senator is a member of at any moment. Jeffords was elected as a Republican but he quit the party and is independent now--describing him as a Republican senator today is just plain incorrect. Ben Nighthorse Campbell similarly switched parties right in the middle of his term, so he was a Dem senator one day and a Republican senator the next. JL can in principle get elected as an independent and continue to serve in the Senate as a Democrat, and it's pretty clear that he hopes (realistically or otherwise) to do exactly that.Phr (talk) 06:13, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Joe Lieberman (as of today) is still a democratic senator in Washington D.C. Just because Ned Lamont defeated him in the primary does not mean Lieberman is no longer a senator. You'll have to wait for the actual election for that. -Trega123 14:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

So are we drawing a distinction between him being a "Democratic Senator" and a "Democratic Candidate"? Thesmothete 14:40, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I believe we are drawing a distinction between being a "Democratic Senator" and being a "Democratic Candidate." I also believe that that is an appropriate and factual distinction to draw. I agree with Phr that the fact that Lieberman is a Democrat is not being "seriously disputed." If he wins the election, I think he would still be considered a Democrat if he caucused with the Democrats and was registered in Connecticut as a Democrat. However, that is both debatable and an issue for another time. As the situation stands, I would say Lieberman is a Democratic Senator and an Independent/ Lieberman-for-Connecticut candidate for the Senate. --Jim Campbell 17:10, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
That seems to be a fair distinction since he is a registered democrat, but has a received the nomination of a party other than the democrats and was not granted the democratic nomination (to cover for some politicans who may get nominated for multiple parties). FleetAdmiralJ 05:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me as long as Lieberman is listed as a Democrat on the U.S. Senate web page, he should still be a considered a Democrat. Jeffords, who was elected as a Republican, is listed there as I-VT, but Lieberman is still D-CT. Talmage 02:58, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Just to throw in my 2 cents, as long as he is a registered Democrat, than his party affiliation should be labeled Democrat. In New York Politics, the Democrat candidate usually gets endorsed by the Liberal Party, and accepts that endorsement. Does that mean Hillary Clinton is a member of the Liberal Party? Of course not. Lieberman is a Democrat running as an independant --67.105.241.226 18:59, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

That's what i was saying! Talk about going full circle... dposse 17:12, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't fully agree with 67.105.241.226. We shouldn't go by his voter registration alone. If, for example, in the unlikely event that the Dem senate leadership decides to throw Lieberman out of the caucus or if he quits it, then we shouldn't refer to him as a Democrat any longer, at least in contexts referring to his role as a Senator. This is true even if he keeps his Democratic voter registration (though of course we could note that in the article text). It's possible that Jeffords is still a registered Republican voter in Vermont but I don't think anyone cares very much. For purposes of "Senator Jeffords" he became "I-VT" the day he quit the Republican caucus. But as Talmage says, Lieberman is still a D as of today. Phr (talk) 18:22, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
What your party affiliation is and who you caucus with are seperate issues. You can be an Independent and causus with a party (see Jeffords). You can be a member of one party and caucus with the other (I believe Zel Miller did this). I haven't found anything yet about whether Jeffords is still a registered republican, but I'm pretty sure he's not because he's officiall an Independent in the senate, and if my hunch is correct, voter registration is the determining factor. Unfortunately I can't find a source that says one way or the other. However, it clearly isn't the party you are elected as, because politicans can change their affiliation mid-term. FleetAdmiralJ 05:50, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More on Lieberman mediation

Can I close Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-08-04 Joe Lieberman? There doesn't seem to have been any further discussion, and the revert wars appear to have ended. Fishhead64 06:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Stephenzhu and User:LionO haven't posted here again since you responded to the mediation. I suggest you might leave an inquiry on their talk pages. Sandy 11:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
They might have gotten temporarily sick of the subject after the primary ended. I wouldn't be surprised to see them here again as the general election campaign intensifies (assuming JL stays in). Phr (talk) 13:36, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
No, they both disappeared several days before the primary, when they realized there were some rules they would have to follow. Things like WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, WP:RS, and WP:BLP Sandy 20:46, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WaPo endorses indy bid

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/09/AR2006080901632.html

Someone might add that. I'm tired ;-) Phr (talk) 08:03, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hard time displaying on larger resolutions

On larger resolutions (1600x1200), this page has a few large gaps, the largest one at the top of the page. -Trega123 14:18, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

"800×600 was the standard resolution until around 2000. Since then, 1024×768 has been the standard resolution. Many web sites and multimedia products are designed for this resolution." [5] dposse 16:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Remove current event marker

Should we still have the current event marker at the top? Other Senators up for re-election don't have them. See Lincoln Chafee and George Allen. Thesmothete 14:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll second the removal of the "current event" marker. Although the election is ongoing, I don't believe that "information may change rapidly as the event progresses," as the marker indicates. I think that was an appropriate header as we headed into the Senate primary. For now, the facts and events have been decided. Lamont won the primary. Lieberman is running as a third-party candidate. We might have a few polls to post, but other than that, no big news until November.
If we get another agreeing opinion or two without a descent, I'll pull the marker. If someone disagrees, tell us so and tell us why so we can hash it out. Thanks.
--Jim Campbell 17:21, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd say that we keep it. Lieberman's situation is pretty much unique- he lost to the primary, and in the next couple weeks this race will really shape up. Since his name is still in the news, I say we keep it. --Smedley Hirkum 17:42, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree that in the next couple of weeks the race will shape up. The unfolding of the 2006 campaign, however, refers to the Connecticut_United_States_Senate_election,_2006, which already has a current event tag. Although it seemed to be briefly, this article is not about the 2006 election. It is a biographical encyclopedia article about Joe Lieberman’s life. Only major events in that life are worthy of inclusion. His loss in the 2006 primary was a major event and should therefore be included, as should some details about that loss. However, this article is not a proper place to detail the day-to-day, blow-by-blow unfolding of the general election. Those events should, as I said, go on the Connecticut_United_States_Senate_election,_2006 page.
As far as significant events go, the next major event in Lieberman’s life will likely not come until November. Therefore, I’ll reiterate that I believe that the current events tag should be removed. The article should detail the *major* events of the 2006 primary and general election. This article should reference the Connecticut_United_States_Senate_election,_2006 page, where a more detailed (and volatile) account of the 2006 election will be available. --Jim Campbell 17:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Sounds fine to me. Sandy 20:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Campaign timeline

Why isn't that info also moved to the election article ? Sandy 20:54, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. --Smedley Hirkum 23:01, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Zogby poll

This is pretty interesting: http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1155

Phr (talk) 03:04, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] If anyone wants to add anything about Rove

calling Lieberman on primary day, here's a reliable source: http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=politicsNews&storyid=2006-08-10T164937Z_01_N10461049_RTRUKOC_0_US-REPUBLICANS.xml&src=rss&rpc=22

--Smedley Hirkum 05:06, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

And that's notable because?

It's notable because on primary day, the campaign accused Lamont supporters of '"Rovian tactics", and Karl Rove has said "[Lieberman is] a personal friend, and I called him Tuesday afternoon -- 5:00, thereabouts -- and wished him well on his election that night, it was a personal call."[6] --The lorax 14:04, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
OK, so he's friends with Rove. I don't see what the big deal is. Had Lieberman suddenly won the primary and someone suspected "Rovian" foul-play, I could understand the need to think about including it. Otherwise, where's the beef? Dubc0724 14:18, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Not that I advocate this kind of random slander, but "Rovian tactics" is usually meant to mean legitimate abuse of the US media rather than actually cheating. While Lieberman is far from the only person whose campaign was founded on FUD and lies, his campaign has been, well, founded on FUD and lies. Associating with Rove is not a great way to distance onesself from this. Chris Cunningham 19:02, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
It shows a relationship with Republicans and also the "partisanship" that he denounces so much. --Smedley Hirkum 20:08, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
How does associating with someone of an opposing party-and a starkly different political philosophy-demonstrate "partisanship" on his part?

Ruthfulbarbarity 00:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Karl Rove is one of the most partisan figures in modern history. Now that Joe's using republican talking points wiht Lamont, this friendship doesn't show bipartisanship, it shows Republican partisanship. Smedley Hirkum 04:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
It is extraordinary that Lieberman is on such good terms with Rove. I wouldn't overplay it though - they are said to be friends, nobody claims Rove is advising him. Rove coming out and saying he's a good friend and he'll help him any way he can is probably a deliberate ploy by Rove to help draw Republican voters in Connecticut over to Lieberman - it's hard to imagine Rove would say stuff like that publically without thinking of the consequences. But there is no evidence that Rove is actually advising him. 195.93.21.37 05:44, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Paranoid much?

Ruthfulbarbarity 13:11, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Who, me or 'Smedley'? 195.93.21.37 01:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I like the way it's all turned out. Any time there's a 3rd party candidate and things get nasty, count me in. This 2 party crap is why we're in the mess we're in. Dubc0724 20:17, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
With the RNC refusing to endorse the Republican candidate in CT, I think a 3-party race is probably not accurate, seeing as Lieberman is running as the de facto Republican. --kizzle 20:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


Some users are verging on both bias and using this page to discuss the subject of the article, rather than the article itself. As I understand the rules of Wikipedia, both are inappropriate.

I think a phone call from Karl Rove on election night and Lieberman comparing Lamont supporters to Rove are more appropriate for the article Connecticut_United_States_Senate_election,_2006, which is the article about this election. As I see it, the Rove phone call is a significant event in the context of the 2006 election, but not a significant event in the context of Joe Lieberman’s life. That’s my opinion on this matter.Jim Campbell 19:54, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

To be honest I don't think the separation between Lieberman and the election is really worth making during the run-up. This article will doubtless generate more traffic because of the runup. It probably isn't worth expending a lot of energy enforcing what is still essentially an artificial separation during such a high-energy period; once the current argument settles down consensus can be reached on what is and is not pertinent to this article. Chris Cunningham 21:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Feuds

I added {{fact}} tags to this sub-heading. It assumes a lot, but there are no references for it. Jerry G. Sweeton Jr. 19:24, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the entire "Feuds" section should be removed. I regularly watch the show, and there doesn't seem to a feud between Stephen Colbert and Lieberman. Also, a Google search revealed nothing substantial. Any thoughts? --MZMcBride 19:53, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
It's rubbish, I've removed it. Chris Cunningham 21:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The "Waterbury is evil" quote

Does this quote really belong on Lieberman's page, it's a comment made by a Lamont aide and isn't about Lieberman, so does it really belong here? Surely it would be make more sense to have that quote on Lamont's page? Regardless, if it is included, it seems slightly misleading the way it's presented here. It's claimed here that the aide said 'Waterbury is evil'. In fact, if you look at the source article, he says something like 'Waterbury is where the slime and the evil meet". He claims he was talking about two specific political figures in Waterbury whom he names (one being the 'slime', the other the 'evil') and he denies he was talking about the town or it's people in general. Nobody seems to be actually accusing him of saying the place or the people there are evil (although he has been asked to apologise), but that's the impression you'd get from reading this Wiki page. If it's to stay, surely it should be re-worded to feature his actual quote ("Waterbury is the where the slime and the evil meet" is rather different to "Waterbury is evil") and at least give his own explanation of what he was talking about. 195.93.21.37 04:52, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't directly relate to Joe Lieberman, and the election run and Lamont have their own articles, so it doesn't belong here. Again, nothing to do with whether it's accurate or biased, it's simply irrelevant. Chris Cunningham 07:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree that it doesn't belong in the Lieberman article. It did get some wide press coverage, probably due to political operatives pushing the story. San Francisco Chronicle story. Phr (talk) 11:34, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I put it back because it is obvious here in CT it was done in retaliation for the locals not supporting Lamont. hence it is very relevant to the November election.

That's nice. It's still irrelevant to Lieberman's campign. Get a blog or something. Chris Cunningham 15:31, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I removed the Waterbury quote after it was put back again. That somebody else's campaign aide said something about a town in Connecticut is not relevant to Joe Liberman's life and career or even his campaign. It belongs on Lamont's page and on the page covering the 2006 Senate race in Connecticut. If anyone still disagrees, can they please come on here and justify the quotes inclusion on this page before making any more changes? 195.93.21.37 18:48, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

It's being put back silently by the same anonymous contributor every time. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. When the article is eventually sprotected for abuse (like every other political article on wikipedia) this will stop. Chris Cunningham 20:20, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Is the official Wikipedia position that posters from Waterbury are evil?

Yes, please see Wikipedia:Waterbury is evil. --kizzle 20:28, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Header changes

I went through and changed the specific issue headers (e.g. "Social Security") to a different format in order to remove them from the table of contents box. I don't think it's necessary to have every single issue Lieberman has talked about directly linkable from the top of the page, and using {{TOCleft}} was condensing all of the "Early life" section in an awkward way. If this new format is really disdained, I won't be offended if it's reverted, but I do think the page looks better now. --MZMcBride 04:38, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

it's less semantically useful; the TOC thing is a technical limitation, and ideally articles should try to avoid compromising themselves for the sake of technical limitations. However, I don't think this article is in danger of being abandoned any time soon, and for the time being it makes the intro far less ugly. Chris Cunningham 12:48, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lieberman was a harsh critic of rap music

Joe Lieberman is a respectively a critic of the music and entertainment industry. He teamed up with the conservatives Jack Thompson, Bill Bennett, Tiper Gore (the wife of former vice president Al Gore) and (former civil rights movement leader) C. Delores Tucker to create the warning labels that we see on our video games, rap music, rock music, and ratings on television. The reason for his defeat did come from a little of Hollywood. LILVOKA 18:05, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

That's already mentioned in the article. I dare say his desire to have thousands of Arabs blown up is slightly more controversial than a desire to stop ickle children listen to rude words on the radio. Chris Cunningham
How is defending Israel's right to exist-and to resist Muslim aggression-controversial in the United States Congress?
I could probably count the opponents of Israel, and the number of members who opposed the resolution expressing support for Israel's counter-offensive in Lebanon within that body, on one hand.
And the people Israel is attacking are not simply "Arabs,"-as you would disingenuously have us believe-but Arab-MUSLIM terrorists.
I haven't seen many IAF pilots strafing Maronite Christian or Armenian Catholic neighborhoods.

Ruthfulbarbarity 02:18, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Well if you say so but I think he was talking about Iraq, not Israel. I suspect there is more to Lieberman's defeat than just his pro-war attitude but clearly that is the main reason. However I don't think either his pro-censorship or pro-Israeli views have anything to do with it. 195.93.21.37 01:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
On top of that, last I looked Lieberman wasn't in the United States Congress. Chris Cunningham 15:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Israel? I think he's talking about Iraq. --kizzle 20:27, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nicknames

Someone added a section on Lieberman's alleged nicknames, but didn't provide references. Someone should take a look at it. The contributor was an anon IP address, so in my eyes the information is suspect. Jerry G. Sweeton Jr. 01:27, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Yep, no links, no placement

[edit] Bush kiss section

The "Bush kiss" section seems to have been deleted without comment, or discussion. Should it be re-added? --MZMcBride 03:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Disclaimer: I hate Lieberman and am glad he lost the primary. But I feel that the Kiss section belongs in the primary article and not his own personal article, unless it's a *brief* mention as to why he lost the primary (like <5 words). --kizzle 04:38, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Well I'm glad he lost his primary but I wouldn't say I hate the guy. Regardless I don't agree that the Kiss section should be removed. It was a controversial incident that occured long before his primary challenge and was widely remarked upon at the time. Sure it should be mentioned on the primary article as it could have played a part in his defeat but I think it's a controversial enough moment in his career to warrant a mention on his personal page also. Fair enough if others don't agree but I can't think of too many other things in Lieberman's career that got him more media attention and controversy. 195.93.21.37 01:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Hate is a strong word...
Perhaps the bush-kiss incident should get its own wikipage. It is notable. Readers may want to know what it was all about and its significance. That way it doen't have to be too prominent on this particular page. Thesmothete 04:12, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The looping video seems a little excessive. I like the idea of a seperate article, the video would belong there more, I think. Jules1236

[edit] interesting The Hill piece

Bunch of stuff about senators agitating to strip JL's committee memberships if he gets reelected. Probably should go in the article. Re above about the Bush kiss: that should be mentioned in the article about the 2006 election, preferably with a photo. It was a very memorable image from the campaign. Phr (talk) 07:43, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

http://www.thehill.com/thehill/export/TheHill/News/Frontpage/081606/news1.html Phr (talk) 07:43, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Joe Lieberman is NOT an Independent

I was about to post this and saw someone else already beat me to it, so I'll just provide a justification here:

Joe is not an 'Independent', Joe is the candidate of the Connecticut for Lieberman (CT4L) party. The Independent Party is a registered entity in Connecticut that has no association with Holy Joe. One can view their website here, where one can plainly see Joe is not mentioned anywhere. Instead, he belongs to the Connecticut for Lieberman party, which is clearly a distinct entity from the Independent party, thus he is not an "Independent". --kizzle 20:49, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Being an 'independent' means not being a member of one of the organized political parties. It generally doesn't mean that one is a member of the Independent Party (which is a silly idea, even if it does really exist). Calling Lieberman an "independent candidate" is perfectly appropriate. Calling him an "Independent candidate" would not be, I guess. john k 02:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

And obviously there is no "Connecticut for Lieberman" party. That's just silliness. john k 02:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

For clarification, there is a "Connecticut for Lieberman" party. (Source: [7]) --MZMcBride 03:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
There may be technically, but it isn't a real party. john k 16:08, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Why create confusion by saying "independent", and instead just say he's a candidate from the "Connecticut for Lieberman" party rather than using "independent" when it is so close to the "Independent Party"?--kizzle 06:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Because that's how he's referred to. While a note might be made that he isn't the big-I Independent candidate, it's perfectly appropriate to refer to him as a small-i independent candidate because it's an accurate description of the event. Chris Cunningham 09:34, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Indeed. The "Connecticut for Lieberman Party" is not a real political party. It is an on paper only political party which exists solely for the purposes of Lieberman's independent Senate bid. john k 16:08, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
It's a real party insomuch that 25 notable CT people are listed as party founders. The party may be single issue and single candidate, but that doesn't make it any less of a political party in the eyes of the Conencticut Election Board. [8] --waffle iron talk 16:23, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
"On paper" or not, it still is the political party he is running on, which is separate from the "Independent party". Referring to him still as an independent candidate will be confusing to readers. --kizzle 02:26, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Some observations/comments:
1: We (Wikipedia) aren't in a positition to determine what is and what is not a "real party".
2: Connecticut has a legal process for creating political parties, and Lieberman (along with his supporters) has chosen to avail himself of that process.
3: There exists in Connecticut a political party with "Independent" in their name. It is possible (but not highly likely) that calling Lieberman an "Independent" candidate could cause some confusion.
4: The language Connecticut appears to use to describe candidates not associated with a party is "unaffiliated". By law, no party can be registered with "unaffiliated" in their name.
At the moment, it appears that Lieberman is unaffiliated. A "Connecticut for Lieberman" party has been formed, but he has not yet been officially nominated by that party. - O^O

The existence of Connecticut for Lieberman is a technicality resulting from oddities of Connecticut election law. It is a "political party" under the terms of Connecticut election law, of course, but it is not a "political party" in the generally understood sense of the term. john k 23:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

"Political party" under the terms of Connecticut election law is sufficient for us to refer to him as part of the party, whether or not we all know it is a joke. I think O's reasoning above is perfectly sound. --kizzle 02:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
You have this backwards. Nobody is disputing that Lieberman is running as Connecticut for Lieberman. What is being argued is whether it is inappropriate to refer to him as an "independent" candidate given that there is a real Independent Party. I dare say that most of those self-described as "independent" in United States political discussion are not, in fact, affiliates of the Independent Party, so it is foolish to speculate that any confusion caused thereby is caused by those who use the word (with a small i) in its most common meaning. Chris Cunningham 14:44, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

It's proper to refer to him as an "independent Democrat." Yes, it's a new term that Senator Lieberman created, but it's the only one that fits. He no longer has the endorsement from the Democratic Party, but he's still a registered Democrat intent on caucusing with the Democrats in the Senate if he wins. If he wanted to petition as an unaffiliated he could have done so. By creating this real/unreal political party (Connecticut for Lieberman) he guaranteed himself a promminent position on the ballot. --70.233.73.20 07:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC) There are four possible classifications for Lieberman: Democrat Connecticut for Lieberman Independant Independant Democrat

I would argue the correct classification is in fact Democrat, here's why: Joe never left the party and is still registered with them (as reported above). Second, he still calls himself a democrat. Third, he will still act as a Democrat in the Senate and fourth he would have been a Democrat had he been permitted to be. Also consider the case of Hillary Clinton in New York, she was nominated by three parties and shows on the ballot three times, as a Democrat, a Working Families candidate and, yes, as the Independant Party canidate. Her party is not, and should not be, listed as Democrat, Working Families, Independant.

Connecticut for Lieberman is incorrect because he is not a member of this party.

Independant is wrong because Lieberman does not classify himself this way and one can be a member of the Independant in Connecticut and Lieberman is not a member of this party.

Independant Democrat is perhaps the most reflective title at explaining the elction but for one unfamiliar with Lieberman this title would be really confusing. What is the difference between Independant Democrat and Democrat?132.162.216.186 22:11, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I posted the above because I thought it was accurate at the time, however on Meet The Press today Lieberman said that he wanted to known as an Independant Democrat, so I guess my position has changed.132.162.216.186 18:51, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Polls

If there is to be a section on the poll predictions for the CT Senate general election, then it should be ongoing and objective, without a summary that will quickly be obsolete. The current commentary that polls show a tightening race is not really true. Major polls to date are as follows: - August 17 Quinnipiac showed Lieberman ahead of Lamont by 12 percent - August 21 ARG poll showed Lieberman leading by 2 points - August 21 Zogby poll showed Lieberman leading by 10 points

The most appropriate poll discussion is simply a list of major poll results as they come in.

[edit] Campaigning with Republicans

The following statement in the article is extremely misleading:

"On August 28, Lieberman campaigned with GOP Congressman Christopher Shays at a motorcycle rally."

Although it is technically true, in that Lieberman was campaigning at the same event as Shays, the entry makes it seem that Lieberman has endorsed Shays or that he is campaigning ON HIS BEHALF, neither of which is true. Their appearance at the same event was coincidental, and Lieberman has endorsed Shays' opponent. A number of politicans were campaigning at this event, including other major CT Democrats.

Whatever side one is on, this kind of misleading statement has no place in wikipedia.

Just want to second this, as it's really quite an important note to keep in mind. As the user below stated, Joe Gun never has supported any Republican Candidates, and any user adding a section that either says or even merely implies this should be eyed with extreme suspicion.IDontGetThatJoke 11:26, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Lieberman has has not endorsed any Republican candidates and has committed to caucusing as a Dem in the Senate. Dem leader Harry Reid has promised that Lieberman will keep his current committee positions.

Secondly, this entry conjectures that Lieberman's run will hurt Democratic Congressional candidates. Rahm Emanuel and some other Dem leaders have asserted the opposite: that by having two Dems in the race, Lamont and Lieberman will attract a full spectrum of Democratic voters who will all vote for the single Dem candidate for Congress.

To the extent this article states facts they should be truthful and not misleading.

To the extent it puts forth conjecture, both sides should be expressed.

Otherwise wikipedia is just propaganda and we will all have to pay Britannica to give us objective truth.

The segment links to a Fox News report that shows the event. "Campaigning together" would seem to include one candidate standing on stage and calling the other candidate in attendance a "national treasure." Watch the link - they report, you decide.

[edit] A question

Can someone explain to me why the religion professed by Lieberman does not appear in the infobox at the right of the article, even if in "edit this page" everybody can find that he is Jewish? I observed the same problem in many other articles dedicated to US Senators, but I can't find an answer. Checco 21:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

It was an issue with Template:Infobox Senator. It's fixed. Thanks for noticing and telling someone. --MZMcBride 00:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sembler fundraiser

I haven't contributed to this page for a month or so but I seen this on the London Guardian website and figured it worthy of mention on Lieberman's page. I'm a little wary that it may contribute to the perception that Lieberman is really a Republican but I think the fact that a notable Republican is holding big money fundraisers for Lieberman is worthy of mention regardless. Feel free to disagree. Also, the source may vanish after a couple of days as it's on the Guardian's 'Breaking News' page. 195.93.21.37 04:08, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Closing mediation

This case seems to be dead. I will close it; I can reopen it if necessary. --Ideogram 02:11, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Popular vote

Did he win the popular vote?--Gkklein 17:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] DLC commentary

"Like Bill Clinton and Dick Gephardt, Lieberman served as chair of the Democratic Leadership Council, a group that has now been overtaken by conservative, corporatist Democrats with the goal of shifting the Democratic party away from traditionally populist and pro middle class positions." (Emphasis mine).

Gee, that sounds even-handed!

[edit] Lamont conceded

See [9]. JoshuaZ 03:35, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing sentence in lead

Why is this sentence: "As the Democratic nominee for Vice-president in 2000, he was the first Jewish-American to win a plurality of the popular vote, with over half a million more votes than the Republican Vice-presidential candidate Dick Cheney, but he was defeated in the Electoral College by a vote of 271 to 266. " in the lead?

Is the intent to underline that he was the first major party Jewish nominee for VP? Or to underline that he received more votes than any other American Jew has? Or to make claims about the 2004 election? Whichever it is, there should be a pared-down sentence focused on what is important enough to go in a Joe Lieberman lead. Jd2718 01:58, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] He just became a Democrat again

See [10] 144.35.254.12 19:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

So, it basically states what i said a month ago. He's both a Independent and a Democrat. dposse 19:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-Palestine lobby

As far as I can tell, administrator 1ne protected the page because of the "anti-Palestine lobby" line in the header (we could be certain if the administrator left a message on this page, but he hasn't). If this was indeed the cause of the protection, would it be agreeable to insert a sentence in the lead that indicates that Lieberman has been a concistent, long-time, strong supporter of Israel? I think the editor who was reverting the 'anti-Palestine lobby' might accept this as a reasonable compromise, and it seems likely that Lieberman's supporters would believe this to be accurate and reasonable. Frankly, the current (protected) version buries his position pretty deep. Jd2718 20:05, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

The fact that Lieberman supported anti-Palestinian causes is not the reason the Democratic Party chose him as a candidate for vice-president. Senators are not elected to meet a religious quota in the Senate, and senators who happen to be Protestant, Catholic, agnostic, or whatever are not normally identified in this way for their religious beliefs. The place to describe his religion is under Religion (2.1), not in the first sentence. The place to describe his foreign policy re Israel is under Foreign Policy (6.2), not as a reason for his vice-presidential candidacy. Singling out Jewish politicians for their religious beliefs seems to me to egregiously violate WP:NPOV. Avt tor 16:37, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
The current version has his religion in the lead, but towards the back of the first paragraph. Lieberman's religion is significant, though I agree that it is not why he was chosen to be the VP candidate in 2000. The current version has a 3rd paragraph in the lead that touches some of the positions Lieberman is best know for, including his support of Israel. This seems to me appropriate. Jd2718 18:43, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Had to revert implied anti-Semitic bias ("Jewish American politician", "anti-Palestinian" in first paragraph) again! This kind of highlighted comment is not used with non-Jewish politicians, and therefore strongly violates WP:NPOV. Avt tor 19:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Party affiliation in userbox

Since it doesn't seem that this page was protected over Lieberman's party affiliation, I wonder if it couldn't be changed in his infobox to Democratic. Disuptes over his party affiliation have been resolved on the 2006 Senate elections page already, and having this article still stating his affiliation as "Independent" could cause confusion. Bridge Partner 03:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Done. -- Avi 03:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
The text on the 2006 Senate elections page falls far short of a resolution. Certainly consensus has not been reached on this page. Further, the admin who protected this page never wrote on the talk page, never told us what the protect was for. My guess was the "Palestine lobby" phrase, but most discussion (and most edits) concerned what party should be next to his name.

What can a regular user do when an admin edits a protected page on a disputed issue? Jd2718 04:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone know why the article is fully protected? I was under the impression that full protection is imposed for a limited time while a specific dispute is sorted out on the talk page. If that isn't the situation here, you might consider requesting that it be downgraded to semiprotection at WP:RFP#Current_requests_for_protection. -- Jim Douglas (talk) (contribs) 04:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you. I will try that. Jd2718 05:02, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

No need. I think that semi-protection would work for now. Also, it seemed that the affiliation was worked out, I apologize if I misunderstood, but I would caution y'all to try and work this out on talk once I downgrade to semi-protection, because edit-warring will get this page locked up again. Also, if the libelous info comes back again, it may need protection for wiki's own good again. Good luck! -- Avi 05:13, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Campaigning on the Sabbath

The article states or implies that Lieberman campaigned on the Jewish Sabbath (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday) during the 2000 Presidential election. No documentation is given that he did so. Here are quotes from various news articles showing that he did not campaign on the Sabbath at that time.

NOVEMBER --- JOE LIEBERMAN: Source of 'enormous pride' for U.S. Jews; ELECTION 2000: AROUND THE NATION The Atlanta Journal and Constitution November 8, 2000

Lieberman, 58, is an Orthodox Jew whose religious faith drew attention during the campaign because of his refusal to make appearances on the Jewish Sabbath.

--- Gore campaigns to the end USA TODAY November 8, 2000,


"I haven't at any moment felt insecure or uneasy or threatened," Lieberman told reporters on his campaign jet. "I haven't felt any slight indication of anti-Semitism. The reaction has been totally to the contrary."


He spoke of La Crosse, where the Liebermans spent their first Sabbath after the Democratic convention, dropping off from campaigning that Saturday to observe the Jewish day of rest.


OCTOBER

FACE TO FACE WITH LIEBERMAN VICE PRESIDENTIAL HOPEFUL SEES BUSH BEHIND EVERY NADER VOTE, VOWS HIGH-TECH SUPPORT The Columbian (Vancouver, WA.) October 28, 2000


Q. As a Jew, you don't campaign on the Sabbath. What does the public need to know about you and your observation of the Sabbath if you are elected?

A. I appreciate the question. I know people reasonably have that on their minds. I've always distinguished in my public career between doing politics on the Sabbath, which I don't do, and fulfilling my governmental responsibility, which I always have done and would do if I were elected. The justification is that you are stopping on the Sabbath to honor God's creation. If you are in a position with a responsibility to protect God's creation people and that involves picking up a phone, going to a meeting, whatever, it's a higher obligation than the rest.

--- TRYING TO RAID NADER'S CAMP;LIEBERMAN MAKES DEMOCRATIC PITCH TO OREGON VOTERS Hartford Courant (Connecticut) October 28, 2000


After a stroll down the main street of Beaverton, Ore., chatting with voters, Lieberman wound up his day with a private visit with clergy and African American community members at the Bethel AME Church in Portland. He planned to spend the Sabbath here before flying tonight to Michigan, where he and Gore will begin a two-day campaign swing in Michigan and Wisconsin.


--- Running mates talk high-tech at Internet companies The Associated Press October 20, 2000

From Pennsylvania, Lieberman was heading to Washington for the Sabbath, the traditional Jewish day of rest, and Simchat Torah, which celebrates the end of one cycle of reading from the Torah and the start of a new one.

--- Gore Juggles Campaign, V.P. Duties Associated Press Online October 14, 2000

GOP running mate Dick Cheney, spending the weekend at his home in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, canceled an early-morning fly-fishing trip because of the icy weather. Cheney returns to the campaign trail Monday, traveling to Missouri and Florida. Democratic running mate Joseph Lieberman was off the campaign trail Saturday for the Jewish Sabbath.


--- SEPTEMBER


Smooth ride leaves time for some fun Cox News Service September 30, 2000

Although Lieberman continues to leave the campaign trail each week for the Jewish Sabbath, he has toned down his statements about religion in public life after complaints that he had crossed a line.

--- ROSH HASHANA;A TIME OF NEW BEGINNINGS, AND, FOR MANY, NEW QUESTIONS The Boston Globe September 29, 2000

In numerous interviews about their sermons, rabbis repeatedly compared Lieberman to baseball players Hank Greenberg and Sandy Koufax, both of whom drew attention for their refusal to play ball on Jewish holidays. Lieberman has refused to campaign on the Jewish sabbath, and he is taking time away from his campaign this weekend to celebrate Rosh Hashana at his synagogue in New Haven and next weekend to mark Yom Kippur, most likely at his synagogue in the Georgetown section of Washington.


--- CAMPAIGN 2000; U.S.-ISRAELI TIE WILL BE PRIORITY, LIEBERMAN SAYS Los Angeles Times September 25, 2000

Lieberman spoke to the group at the end of a weekend trip to Chicago, where he spent the Sabbath with his wife, Hadassah, and attended two fund-raisers Saturday night with Gore that helped raise $ 2 million for the Democratic National Committee.

--- GEORGE W. BUSH ARRIVING ON MONDAY Palm Beach Post (Florida) September 7, 2000

On Friday, U.S. Sen. Joe Lieberman, the Democratic vice presidential nominee, and his wife, Hadassah, will go to Miami Beach. With the Jewish Sabbath starting at sundown, the Liebermans will stay in Miami Beach until the Sabbath ends Saturday at sundown. The Liebermans are expected to worship at a Miami Beach synagogue.

---

AUGUST

--- ANTI-SEMITISM SURFACES IN DEMOCRATIC OFFICES Ha'aretz August 27, 2000

Last Friday, Lieberman made his first solo campaign appearance, in Delaware. He did not campaign yesterday, on the Jewish sabbath.

Energized Gore barnstorms Illinois, Iowa Agence France Presse -- English August 21, 2000

In the wake of his nomination acceptance speech at the Democratic National Convention last Thursday, the candidate embarked on the Mark Twain riverboat to cruise down the Mississippi, in a photo-friendly campaign swing to court voters in middle-American states who often decide national US elections.

Lieberman, an Orthodox Jew, split off from the campaign Friday to observe the Sabbath.

---

CAMPAIGN 2000; The Houston Chronicle August 26, 2000


The first person of Jewish faith on a major presidential ticket, Lieberman was returning home by sundown to observe the start of the Jewish Sabbath.

---


Businessman enjoys river trip with Gore Wausau Daily Herald (Wausau, WI) August 22, 2000

Lieberman left the boat Friday evening and returned to La Crosse, spending Saturday observing the Jewish Sabbath, Phil Bickley said.

[edit] Sen. Joe Lieberman (I/D-CT). Meet the Press transcript.

“
 MR. RUSSERT: You will caucus with the Democrats?

SEN. LIEBERMAN: I will caucus with the Democrats. I said that to my constituents throughout. I’m going to caucus with the Democrats both because it’s good for my constituents in Connecticut, because I retained my seniority, I become a committee chair, but also I want to continue to work to bring the party back to its historic traditions of, of strength on national security, foreign policy and innovation, and progress in domestic policy—the, the Harry Truman/John F. Kennedy Democrat that, that I was raised to be.

But, but I’m going to be an independent because that is how and why I returned to the Senate. I was elected as an independent, I was elected, I believe, because I said to my constituents in Connecticut, “I’m, I’m as fed up with the partisanship in Washington as you are. I promise you I will put progress and, and patriotism ahead of partisanship and polarization.” So I’m going to—I am now an Independent Democrat, capital I, capital D. Matter of fact, the secretary of the Senate called my office and asked, “How do you want to be identified” and, and that’s it. Independent Democrat.

MR. RUSSERT: So you’ll be Senator Joe Lieberman, I/D, Connecticut.

SEN. LIEBERMAN: Yeah, we checked with history and actually in the late ‘70s Senator Harry Byrd of Virginia listed himself as an Independent Democrat. You got to go back to the mid-19th century to find the last Independent Democrat.
”

[11]


So, can we please end this little revert war? Joe Lieberman is offically an "Independent Democrat", just as Senator Harry Byrd was in the 1970s. dposse 23:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

  • Lieberman cannot define his political party how he wants. Michael Steele, for example, repeatedly tried to misrepresent himself as a Democrat, but he's not. He was the Republican candidate. Lieberman is not a Democrat. He is a Connecticut for Lieberman member who caucuses with the Democrats, the same as Barry Sanders is and Jim Jeffords was (not CFL'ers, but indys who caucused with a major party). Staxringold talkcontribs 20:49, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Agree with Stax. Joe Lieberman can call himself a "Green Eggs and Ham Democrat" if he likes, but that does not make him officially any such thing. His listing should be either "Independent (Caucuses with Democrats)", or list the "Connecticut for Lieberman" party he was elected under. He is officially (as you seem to misunderstand what "officially" means) a Connecticut for Lieberman ("Independent") senator who caucuses with the Democratic Party. Italiavivi 00:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Um, doesn't what you two are saying go against verifiability, not truth? It seems like it does. You see, i provided a proper source. Can you provide a recent source that says anything different, and make what came straight from the mouth of Lieberman wrong? dposse 03:59, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Yes. A Connecticut ballot. Lieberman was elected a Connecticut for Lieberman candidate, not an Independant Democratic candidate. That is his party. Period. End of discussion. He doesn't get to change that by dancing around on television and saying something else. That is his officially filed and elected party. Democratic party was included in my edit (which I've reverted to) to follow the style of Lowell Weicker and note that he says he'll still caucus with Dems and such. Staxringold talkcontribs 05:07, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with the assertion that whatever was on the ballot is what party he belongs to. Like Jim Jeffords, senators are free to switch parties, regardless of what they ran as. If he informed the Secretary of the Senate that he will be an Independent Democrat, then he should be listed as such. While I don't dispute that "Connecticut for Lieberman" is a valid political party, I don't see Lieberman as a member any longer. --MZMcBride 06:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
AFAIK, there is no active "Independent Democratic Party," or, if there is, Mr. Lieberman was not elected as a member of such. I suppose "Independent Democratic" or "Independent Democratic Party" could be put in the box following Democratic and Connecticut for Lieberman; he may or may not be the founding member of such a party. Settler 07:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Someone will need to provide a source for the "Independent Democratic Party" having been legally and officially created before it is added to the article. As for now, though, "Independent Democrat" is nothing more than a pet name Sen. Lieberman chose while chatting with Tim Russert. Nothing official or legal to it. Italiavivi 12:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
No, they won't. There is no "Independent Democratic Party". "Independent" is an adjective, "Democratic Party" is a proper noun". Lieberman was elected on an independent ticket at the ballot, and he does not merely choose but will be accepted as a member of the Senate Democratic caucus. That makes him an independent and a Democrat. Calling him an "Independent Democrat" is more factually correct than calling him merely an "Independent" or a "Democrat". Avt tor 21:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
He was not elected as an Independent. For the sake of a higher ballot position, he created and was elected as a member (one of currently... two) members of the Connecticut for Lieberman party. Not as a Democrat (Ned Lamont ran as the Democrat), not as an Independent, but as Connecticut for Lieberman-er. A simple look at the United States Senate page will reveal thi9. Current Democratic Senators: 49, Lieberman not among them. Lieberman is a member of the Connecticut for Lieberman party, a party he founded, and... well... the end. Any kind of revert war is simple ignorance. Preston 03:21, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Certainly "independent" is an adjective. However, when capitalized as in "Independent Democratic Party," the implication is that is the name of a party.
There's a bit of speculation at work here, as Lieberman has hinted and talked around this (very weird) issue a bit, and we've been left to interpret his words. When the 2007 session begins, the list of senators in the US Senate page will either list him as "D - CT" or "I - CT" or some other way. (Currently, it lists him as "D - CT.") At that time, this article can be edited to reflect his official affiliation.--RattBoy 10:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
People..Lieberman is still officially a Democratic Senator until the new Senate is sworn in in January. Therefore his infobox should reflect that he is simply a 'Democrat' until that time. We can go ahead and have this little argument again then, but as of right now it is factually inaccurate to call him anything but a Democrat.--Mike 14:59, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] We need to decide when "Democrat" leaves his party affiliation.

I'd imagine he's still formally an elected Democrat until he's re-sworn? Could editors agree to hold off 'til then on the edit warring over the link to Democratic Party (United States). Italiavivi 12:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

support - I know this isn't a poll, but the number of changes and options is dizzying. Since he was unambiguously elected to this term as a Democrat, Democrat is accurate in the box. We can leave it and be accurate until the swearing in. Rather than re-editing the article we could use the time to 1) discuss on this page, and 2) follow developments, both what Lieberman does and says, and what the rest of the Senate does and says. Jd2718 17:38, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Someone edited Independent Democrat to Democrat. I don't think this is consistent with Lieberman's stated position. There was a comment about "Independent Democrat" being a neologism, though Wikipedia itself has an article with history on this terminology. IMO, NPOV calls for usage consistent with the senator's own preferred usage and with the official Senate usage (the latter is not yet determined). Avt tor 16:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Lieberman is not a Democrat simply on a technicality. He has stated many times that he is a lifelong democrat and he will caucus with the party in the senate. While I agree that it should be mentioned that he won the recent election as an independent and he has called himself an "Independent Democrat", he should be listed as a Democrat. Let's not forget: at present he still is considered technically a Democrat as well. Mike 16:06, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Some Democrats feel that he abandoned any claim to being a "lifelong Democrat" when he chose to run against the party's nominee in the election. That said: I agree with Jd2718's position: don't waste time futzing with the infobox. And if you read U.S. history, the article on Independent Democrat lists only a tiny fraction of the number of American politicians who have been estranged from the party but called themselves "Independent Democrat" over the decades. Remember Will Rogers' proud proclamation: "I am not a member of any organized political party; I am a Democrat." Democrats are a fractious bunch (and I say that as a delegate to the 2004 Democratic National Convention). --Orange Mike 16:15, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you, but Independent Democrat is not a real political party. Plus, he is still a Democrat until January, so the userbox should reflect that fact. In January, it can be another story, but as of right now he is a Democratic senator. And I still think he should be listed as a Democrat in January because he is a registered member of the party. It doesn't matter that some Democrats don't like him. Lots of Republicans don't like Arlen Specter, but we're not calling him an Independent are we? The only reason Joe ran as an independent is, like you said, because he lost the primary.--Mike 16:26, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I changed the infobox from "Connecticut for Lieberman" to "Independent Democrat" because the former seemed to be clearly not a political affiliation and the latter seemed to more accurately reflect consensus of editors. I did not change "Democrat" back to "Independent Democrat" because that is a smaller change not requiring immediate correction. I think a final determination requires an authoritative citation, either in the senator's own words or from other official source (e.g. senate.gov). Notwithstanding any of our personal views, the encyclopedia's purpose should be to inform readers with relevant information, not to promote a particular political view above others. Avt tor 17:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
See below - he is officially a Democrat in the Senate, so Democrat needs to be in his userbox. However, he officially ran as a candidate for the Connecticut for Lieberman party in the election, so that also should be in his infobox. The most recent, official statuses are the ones that should be elected. What he is officially going to be for the next Senate term will appear at www.senate.gov in the future, but presently he is officially an incumbent Democratic Senator and a successful Connecticut for Lieberman Senate Candidate. --Tim4christ17 talk 09:57, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Difference from running for the Senate and sitting as a Senator

1) Lieberman ran for the Senate as the "Connecticut for Lieberman" Party. There are many more parties other than the Democratic and Republican Party. For all charts and articles regarding the Senate Election of 2006, Lieberman was either elected as a "independent" (as opposed to the traditional parties such as the Democrat, Republican, Green, or Communist Party)

2) Lieberman will sit in the new Senate as whatever he wants to! If someone is elected as a Democrat, there is nothing that says they could not switch and sit as a Republican. It is the convention for someone to run and sit for the same Party, but no requirement that they do. Someday a group of Senators and Congressman will decide to create a new party and decide to switch to this new party and there is nothing the Democratic or Republican Party can do to stop it. (The new party better have a majority or else they would lose all their committee seats. By the way, what happens if no one party can get 51 votes to create the majority?) So, if Lieberman wants to call himself a "Independent Democrat", then that is what CSPAN will call him. I suspect Wikipedia will resolve this problem once CSPAN (and Senate.gov) define him on their web pages.

By the way, where in the Constitution were Parties even mentioned? user:mnw2000 16:33, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

1) If no party has a majority, then major negotiations go on until 51 senators can agree on a Senate leadership. 2) The parties were not contemplated in the writing of the Constitution, and indeed such groups were fiercely deprecated by most of the Founding Fathers.--Orange Mike 18:13, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
There would be no such problem in this case, as Lieberman will caucus with the Democrats, even if he isn't officially a Democrat. Also, while parties are not mentioned in the Constitution, the requirements for forming a party and benefits or restrictions related to being part of a party are listed in the law. With regards to the Lieberman issue, let's keep his "official" statuses for the time being - what he is serving as for his present term and what he ran as for his next term - and after the inauguration, the Senate website will be updated to reflect his official status for the '07 term and we'll be able to update Wikipedia accordingly. --Tim4christ17 talk 20:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
But: "the requirements for forming a party and benefits or restrictions related to being part of a party are listed" in 53 different sets of laws (50 states, D.C., Puerto Rico, and federal law).--Orange Mike 21:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Exactly - except that only the Federal and Conn. laws would apply to Lieberman. --Tim4christ17 talk 21:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
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