User talk:JFD

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2005-07-25–2006-08-20
2006-08-22–2006-09-07

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[edit] Atheism in Hinduism

Thanks for pointing that poll out. I notaced in some of your earlier private messages that some people have accused you of nationalism - id like to re-assure you that I do not think you are biased - although you quite obiously understand pluralism, its always nice to be re-assured :-) I sometimes favour one religion (or lack of) over another, or even one state over another, I have to admit, (and I regret it), but it is usually a philosophical objection - some of those people who accused you no doubt feel defensive thanks to the numerous illogical nationalistic orginisations that play a part in India - and indeed every other society and artificial divide on earth. But alas, you already know this :-) Vastu 00:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Indrancroos

I did'nt know that. I kinda recalled just some guy on an unsigned IP doing all of that. Freedom skies 16:11, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I guess JFD is trying to discourage you to get in touch with me via e-mail, since he fears some kind of academical threat. Just to clear some things up, I was not the guy who went "India did not exist until 1947". I would never post something as blunt, offensive, and ignorant as that. However, yes, I have changed a few things around as a correction. It is not to offend anyone, but like Kenneth Tennyson and his devoted sidekick JFD (the Green Hornet and Kato), I too have some historical points of views. I understand that you have been accused of being a pan-Indian nationalist, while I have been accused of being a Tamil nationalist. As far as Indian martial arts are concerned, martial arts from both your culture and mine are in the Indian martial arts section. Therefore, it effects both of us.

It seems like through this wiki-conflict, it has thrown us together into one pot. If I am here to put you or your culture down, or to discredit India, why in the first place would I have stuck up for you. I had not intentions in mind when I did that. It just ticked me off when Kenneth sent you that messed up message. Just like, for example, a few years ago, when a Punjabi store owner was beaten up in a hate crime. I was outraged...

I see you have a vast knowledge in the fighting styles of Northern Inda, while I have the same for Southern India. Likewise, you are very knowledgeable about ancient Bharat and its 16 Mahajanapada Republics, while I have the same for ancient Tamilakkam. Since this page on Indian Martial Arts effects us both, maybe together we can combine both our knowledge to present a remarkable page. Yes, I do understand our passions which may sometimes clash. However, if we could set aside some of that and work together in a "give-take" mentality we can make things work.

At the same time, we will present our contributions which may be opposite of what JFD-Kenny think, but at the same time their views shall be presented as well to give a fair and balanced view on Indian Martial Arts.

Do you agree with me on this? If so, it would be nice if we could communicate via e-mail. I have more ideas to share with you. I believe we can make this work. As far as JFD is concerned, I do not know what his intentions are. Maybe he feels a little threatened of the possiblity of you and me teaming up on this project? or maybe I am wrong... Indrancroos 20:33, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Indrancroos 04:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if the above can be called harassment? Kind of scary, he really really wants to get in touch with Freedom skies.... very close to being stalker personality. Kennethtennyson 17:38, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] more references

Oh, this is another Ph.D who wrote an interesting article on bodhidharma discrediting bodhidharma's association with the martial arts along with zen... Spiessbach, Michael (1992), "Bodhidharma: Meditating Monk Martial Arts Master or Make Believe?", Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Volume 1, Number 4 Kennethtennyson 20:20, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

If you can show me a "Phd." scholar from India who discredits the Bodhidarma theory, then I will believe everything you say, and even stop posting or editing on wikipedia. Is that is deal? Indrancroos: "I'll rather be happy than right, anytime." 20:38, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Leitai Platform article

I just finished writing a new article about the Leitai platform. I remember there use to be one, but it was so small that it was eventually deleted. I've added some famous Leitai fighters at the bottom (just 2 actually). I saw on Jarek's page that he mentioned some famous Xingyi masters who where leitai champions, but I don't have time to add them before I go to work. If you see any problems with it, write me or fix it yourself. Thanks. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 00:06, 10 September 2006 (UTC))

So far, I have a total of 4 famous leitai fighters in the article. I have more people lined up for the article, but I can't find the the "correct" Chinese characters for their names. (Please keep in mind my chinese is horrible) Do you think you could help me out? Here are the people and the limited info I have on them right now:
Grandmaster Ma Xianda
In 1952, the first martial arts championship was held after the founding of the PRC in 1949. Ma captured the Lei Tai championship, a free fighting event where fighters knock each other off an elevated platform, defeating Tongbi master Deng Hongzhao and Cuo Jiao master Li Xuewen. [1]
- Here is all I have for his name 馬 ? 達. I know what it looks like, but I can't find the correct character for "xian".
Zheng Xijue (aka Zheng Boying)
Zhaobao Taijiquan is one of rare branches of the style that has been practiced mainly in Zhaobao town in Henan Province. The set presents Big Frame of Zhaobao (He Style) as passed by renowned master Zheng Boying, who became famous after winning Leitai (free fighting) Competition in 1931 in Kaifeng. [2]
Shang Xueli
He first learnt Chazi boxing (boxing emphasizing hardening skills) from Yuan Fengyi and became his disciple. Later, when Yuan was defeated by Mai Zhuangtu and became Mai's disciple, Shang Xueli started to learn Xinyi Liuhe Quan from both Mai Zhuangtu and Yuan Fengyi. Shang was Yuan's best disciple and won Leitai (free fighting) competitions in Kaifeng where he used a combination of "Back Power" (Bei Jin) and knee strike (Ti Xi) defeating Shaolin expert, Zhang Qilin (who died few days later of internal injury).[3]
Chen Zhao Pei (a.k.a. Chen Jifu) (1893-1972)
He was the son of Chen Deng Ke, and the grandson of Chen Yannien. He was a sickly child, and almost died in infancy. His father taught him Taiji in hopes of improving his health. He travelled with his father on business in the Shanxi/Gansu regions as a teenager, continuing his studies with him ...
...In 1928 he was hired by a famous pharmacy in Beijing as a guard. He kept a low profile, wishing to avoid conflict with other martial artists. However, a newspaper account was published mentioning his skill, and Zhaopi was challenged. As a result, he set up a lei tai (challenge platform) by one of the city gates, and for seventeen days accepted challenges from over two hundred people, defeating all. [4]

If at all possible, I would like to get all of the names for all of the masters mentioned, even the ones who were defeated by said masters, and even their techniques. I'll keep on looking myself, but I would really appreciate your help. Thanks. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 22:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC))

Thanks for referring me to Mandarintools. I actually use this one all the time. I must have overlooked the "Xian" character there. So far, I've added Ma Xianda, Zheng Boying, and Chen Zhaopi to the article. I still want to put Shang Xueli on there, but I think I will take a rest before I do. I've also added info about San Shou. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 02:34, 13 September 2006 (UTC))
I've added a large section in the leitai page about the national competition held by the Central Guoshu institute in 1928. I've noticed that you practice the institute's curriculum. How much do you know about it's history? Check out the page and tell me if you see any errors. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 17:50, 17 September 2006 (UTC))

[edit] journal of asian martial arts

it should be a journal at a university. Kennethtennyson 22:03, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding Tamil Martial Arts

It is actually Marma (pertaining to nerves) in the Kerala language, and Varma (pertaining to nerves) in the Tamil language. Also, varma ati is actually Marma Adi, the art of pressure point attacks from Kerala. The Tamil pressure point fighting and healing system is called Varma Kalai. The Tamil foot and hand combat is called Kuttu Varisai. Varma Kalai can also be a healing art called Varma or Varma Cuttiram.

Sources:

  1. Marma adi : the deadly art and science of hitting the vital marmas, 

 / Sanjay V. Javalkar
  Belgaum, India : Warrior Publications, 1996

  2. Varma cūttiram, a Tamil text on martial art : from palm-leaf manuscript 

  / translation, M. Radhika ; editor, P.  Subramaniam ; general editors, Shu Hikosaka, Norinaga Shimizu, G. John Samuel.
 Madras : Institute of Asian Studies, 1994

Indrancroos 19:44, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm i'll see if i can get a copy of it at my university... oh.. do you know that NPR spotlighted wikipedia? Kennethtennyson 02:28, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Tamil Nadu and Kerala were never under the rule of Ashoka

(Restoring ancient India, a country which included the ancient south under Ashoka the great)

To Freedom skies: Did it ever occur to you that the link you had for Ashoka did not include Tamil Nadu and Kerala????Indrancroos 06:18, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Asoka's Empire did not include Kerala, Tamilnadu, and Sri Lanka. Did you know that you have just CONTRADICTED yourself? Here is the contradiction in your arguement:


(Contradiction)

1. it was stated that "Restoring ancient India, a country which included the ancient south under Ashoka the great".
2. a link was added to Ashoka in the sentence.
3. on the page of Ashoka, it showed the map of his empire which did not inlcude Southern India
  (primarily Tamil Nadu, Kerala, and Sri Lanka).

Here are some links to other wikipedia and websites on Asoka. Please take a look at the maps closely.


(Web Sites)

1. Ashoka
2. Maurya Empire
3. The Mauryan Empire [[5]]
4. Span of the Mauryan Empire [[6]]
5. Map of Mauryan Empire [[7]]

Still not satisfied? Please let me recommend you to take a look at these books in your University and take a look at the maps, and perhaps read the books itself. Here is a list of them which will prove you wrong.


(Books)

1. Mookerji, Radhakumud (1967). Asoka. Delhi: Oxford University Press.
2. Gokhale, Balkrishna Govind (1966). Asoka Maurya. New York: Twayne Publishers.
3. Smith, Vincent Arthur (1964). Asoka, the Buddhist emperor of India. Delhi: S. Chand. 
4. Thapar, Romila Aśoka and the decline of the Mauryas (1997): with a new afterword, bibliography, and index. 
   Delhi ; New York : Oxford University Press.
5. Nilakanta Sastri, K. A. (1967). Age of the Nandas and Mauryas. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass.


By the way these were books written by both Northern and Southern Indians and one European. This is about as fair and balanced it is going to get. As quoted on the Indian martial arts page, I shall use this to describe the sources I have used above as "diverse in nature and have origins of different times from various different ethnic groups", which all prove one point Asoka's Empire did not include Tamil Nadu, Kerala, and Sri Lanka. I would dare say the reason for this was because of the Dravidian martial arts and fighting tactics, including a strong infantry, cavalry, and a poweful Navy.

You need to get your facts straight if you are going to try to get your point across.

Indrancroos 06:18, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fabricated Maps

To Freedom Skies:Your fabricated maps [[8]] won't get your POV across. Anyone can modify a map with software, and anyone can upload trash on wikipedia, especially Indian Nationalists promoting Indo-Aryan facsism... By the way this map that you posted [[9]] only shows the different parts of Tamilakkam the Cholas, Cheras, Pandyas, Nagas, and Iyakkars ruled, just like your 16 kingdoms of Bharat... By the way, did it ever occur to you that the Ashoka the Little was alive for only 40 years when his empire ruled these different lands of the Indian sub-continent?Indrancroos 19:24, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bakasuprman vs. Peter Pan

I aint confused at all. The Ramayan and Mahabharat have not been revised.

To Bakasupran: You are absolutely right. The Ramayan and the Mahabharat have not been revised, nor do they mention of any kingdoms which are in Tamil Nadu, or Kerala. As a matter of fact in Mahabharata it mentions of the 16 Mahajanapadas. The southern most was in the Maharashtran state and parts of Central India called Assaka. The Ramayana mentions of how Hanuman crossed over to Lanka, true in the mythological story. Homer's Iliad speaks of the Trojan war between the Athenians and the Trojans. Does that mean that Troy was part of Athens at the time? Just because Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Java and Bali Indonesia dance the Ramayana or have arts depicting the Ramayana, doesn't mean they are part of India. Just because Islam is practices all over the Middle East, does not mean they are one country either... Stop living in a fantasy... Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Tripura, Mizoram, Pondichery, Assam, and Nagaland became part of India through the British. When the British left, they gave the princely states a choice to be part of India or not. Those who chose not to be part of India, were over run by the Indian army and taken over. A so called Indian Super Power, which is acutually a World Super Market for cheap labor... Wake up and smell the coffee...Indrancroos 01:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Here are some more facts for you:

1. Mizo Hills were formally declared as part of the British-India by a proclamation in 1895.[[10]]
2. The State of Nagaland was formally inaugurated on December 1st, 1963, as the 16th State of the Indian Union.[[11]]
3. The 'Tripura' is a small state within the union of India. It was an independent country till the merger with independent India 
   in 1949 A.D.[[12]]
4. Manipur was not a Part of India. It was forcibly annexed by India. In 21 September 1949 the king of Manipur was forced to sign 
   the Marger Agreement.[[13]]
5. Pondicherry becomes part of India in 1963. [[14]]

These are not the only states which did not become part of India until the arrival of the British or after the British left. If India was actaully one Empire during ancient times, how come there are over 23 distinct languages, and thousands of dialects? Why are there three major families of ethinic groups Dravidians (of African/ Australian roots), Indo-Aryans (of Persian roots - and of course where the name India came from), and the Mon-Kmher (of Burmese/ Cambodian roots)?[[15]]

"Come with me to Never Never Land" - Peter Pan

Indrancroos 02:30, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Influence of IMA

Hi. I added the influences of IMAs which were outside of the argument, and removed the influences which were not. Take a look. Freedom skies 08:32, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


Also,

  • I added a temple pic and a line accomanying it.
  • Relaced the colored pic in "Various IMAs" by a B&W one.
  • The Influence sections had too many links so created and external links section and placed the links there.
  • Added a line in the "IMAs under pop cultue" section.

That's about it. Freedom skies 11:08, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shaolin styles

I was about to get started on a stub about authentic styles taught at the Shaolin temple, when I realised that you hadn't translated them from Pinyin to English. I appreciate you putting them in the Pinyin for me, now I would like to ask for your help in getting the list started. It seems to me that you would be in the best position to help me. Also, having someone who knows Pinyin and chinese wushu should hopefully reduce edit wars.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. Dessydes 03:11, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Maybe try the user Kowloonese.


Thanks for that :) - Philbeer

[edit] Changes

I have made some HUGE changes to my Zhou Tong (Shaolin Monk) article that might affect the factualness of the information on the Eagle claw, Fanziquan, and Chuojiao pages. According to a Yuan Dynasty work entitled "History of the Song", Zhou Tong was a real person, but no martial arts other than archery are ever attributed to him. Neither is it mentioned that he was a Shaolin monk. The connection between Zhou Tong and these fighting styles must have been established from certain legends that evolved around Yue Fei centuries later. Tell me what you think. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 15:47, 10 October 2006 (UTC))

[edit] hey

hey welcome back. how's life going? Kennethtennyson 18:15, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

nothing much has happened except that our buddy freedomskies seems to have written as of yet another biased article - see indian influence on chinese martial arts... he seems to like disputes Kennethtennyson 23:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bodhidharma

Hi JFD

On Aug 16th you made this edit, stating that Dumouline argues that that Bodhidharma "was an entirely fictional character". The quote you refer to doesn't I think securely support the statement. The quoted text follows sentences relating the story of the robe and the begging bowl, and the "legend we are dealing with here" refers to what Dumouline calls the "Bodhidharma legend". I interpret that as meaning that this (and other) stories about Bodhidharma's life are legends, rather than implying that Bodhidharma himself was legendary. Admittedly the quote is ambiguous, at least in this English translation, but at line 7 of the next page Dumouline clearly accepts Bodhidharma's historicity when he says that "There are solid historical grounds for arguing that Bodhidharma was not really as original as legend would have it". Again, the word 'legend' is used to refer to stories about Bodhidharma and not about Bodhidharma himself. I'd suggest we remove the Dumouline reference and quote. What do you think?--MichaelMaggs 21:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, thanks, I'll have a go at fixing it in the next couple of days.--MichaelMaggs 06:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] hey

might need your help on the article "Indian Influence on chinese martial arts" Kennethtennyson 14:46, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] umm

About this diff[16] . (I had his talk page on watchlist) . In case you didnt know, he got blocked in september for three months for uploading pictures of human waste and fat people on a martial arts page.Bakaman Bakatalk 04:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sorry for bringing this up again

How about a List of Styles presently taught at the Shaolin Temple or something? That shouldn't be too much trouble. Dessydes 09:35, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reply

So, basically, a POV fork? If they couldn't source their claims in the right place, then an article with them shouldn't have been created elsewhere. └ OzLawyer / talk ┐ 14:59, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks!

Hi JFD - many thanks for your kind words. If you need anything lemme know. Rama's arrow 16:45, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reply

I'm good thank you for your concern. I don't recall either messing with your article or starting the cabal issue, or advocating the placing of conflicting speculations within the opening paras themselves, especially when one of them suggests that the man did not exist at all for that matter though. Freedom skies Send a message to Freedom skies 01:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] reply

Hi - that is a serious thought indeed! I really can't say if there is any substance to it and I don't know how RFCU could prove your suspicions. Worse, I think you're on a course of potential conflict - this is a "cat and mouse" game, which is not the intention of Wikipedia. People may find ways to game the system but its not Wikipedia's aim to create a foolproof system - we just want to build an encyclopedia, which is what you should focus on. It doesn't really matter if other users permit "borrowing" - if policies are broken, corrective measures will be taken against whomsoever. Hope this helps to assuage your concern, Rama's arrow 04:29, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 3RR Warning

Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly, as you are doing in Shaolin. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Rather than reverting, discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you. -- tariqabjotu 12:45, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reply

I dont know much about Shaolin at all, I merely wanted to check if the book was real and found a copy that I could read on the web. If some users get their way I might not be on wiki much longer.Bakaman Bakatalk 20:39, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll take that as a compliment. If you feel that way, your input might be valuable at three discussions (since you are diametrically opposed to my POV and we have a good editing relationship).Discussion1, the counter section to that and where they are trying to get me banned. Your input will definitely weigh more because you are a user who has been involved in some misunderstandings with me in the past, but we worked toward a better editing relationship.Bakaman Bakatalk 03:22, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bodhidharma

I'm always interested in the Anthology of the Patriarch Hall, but I think I'm okay for the present since I found the specific info I was looking for. Thanks for the offer; your dana is high, butterfly.

Also, sorry I didn't respond to your "spiel" on Talk:Bodhidharma yet—I think I missed seeing it because of Freedom skies subsequent message. I'll respond to it there sometime later, when I have the chance.

As for how I found the Chinese Buddhist canon online ... that, as I recall, was just pure luck stumbled upon in the course of googling random Buddhism- and Chan/Zen-related exact phrases. But I'll tell you, when I realized what I'd thus stumbled onto, I sent forth a low whistle and said to myself, "This is the motherlode right here". Cheers. —Saposcat 12:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, the Digital Library & Museum of Buddhist Studies has lots of excellent resources, if you're interested. —Saposcat 09:21, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
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