Talk:Jewish Task Force/Archive01

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.

This archive page covers approximately the dates between DATE and DATE.

Post replies to the main talk page, copying the section you are replying to if necessary. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.)

Please add new archivals to Talk:Jewish Task Force/Archive02. Thank you. jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 01:12, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Contents

Allegations of Racism

Take away the Jewish element and what is left is a program indistinguishable from your typical militia group in the backwoods of Idaho or the Church of the Creator.

I have to agree with the comment above, but this article's language is horribly non-NPOV. Secondly, their website (which reminds me of Timecube with extra racism), doesn't seem to say anything anti-black I can see. Did I miss something, or could the original writer provide some more evidence of their anti-black views? --Robert Merkel 01:45, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I have tracked JTF for many years. They are consistently racist and some entire programs are nothing but making fun of blacks, calling them stupid, etc. If you look at archive.org, you can find evidence of this, for example:

JTF is not a Jewish terrorist organization. The category should be removed.

Chaim Ben Pesach said that while he was in jail, he became very thin because they wouldn't give him any kosher food until Senator Jesse Helms intervened on his behalf.

LIsten to their audios of "Take Back America" they say many anti-black and anti-hispanic comments.

Chaim continuously makes anti-black, and anti-hispanic comments and his webmaster never misses a chance to present the worst exploits of Black criminals in the media. He refers to all Hispanics as "Cucarachas" (spanish for Roaches) regularly, he refers to blacks as Swartzas, sewage and even "niggers" when he can pass the quote off to someone else. He said: "I would call Blacks nigger, but, I am a moderate and civil rights leader, so thats not a good thing" while his assistant David laughs in the background.

This article needs a lot of work

JTF is nothing more than two guys, a webmaster and a public access show that does nothing but insult everyone not like themself. There is no membership to JTF, just a request to "send us money!" and then there is no accounting for what is done with the money sent it. Trying to pass this on as a valid political or humanitarion organization is insane. Just listen to the shows, it is usually much harsher than what is written on the front page. These guys are nothing more than potty-mouthed white supremists with the exception that they don't hate Jews. And he does use the word nigger.. in one episode he said "and I never use the word "nigger", even when addressing one"

This article was obviously collaborated by JTF themselves or one of their fans. They are not a serious organization. They have no forum, no e-mail address, no contact person, no organization. If you wish to contact them the only contact they will have with you is recieving money sent to them at their PO Box.

--Leftist vandalizing JTF article and comments section--

I noticed that the sick and cowardly individual whose comments are seen above has been regularly vandalizing not only the JTF article but also the comments section here. He keeps inserting that JTF is a "white supremacist" organization, which is a lie. At the very least, his contention is hotly disputed and to insert it in the article as if it were an accepted fact violates Wikipedia's rules. He also keeps stating that there is no proof of where JTF's money is going--that is an absolute lie for which there can be no dispute. JTF's daily advertising on Rotter, SOS and other large and famous Hebrew internet sites to promote its two weekly Hebrew internet broadcasts are something which anyone who reads Hebrew can easily check. Obviously, the arrogant and ignorant individual above does not read Hebrew. JTF's funding of the Hilltop Youth and leading Jewish dissidents are also a matter of public record--Noam Federman, the leader of the Hilltop Youth, proudly lends his name to the JTF web site that says explicitly that most of the Hilltop Youth's activities are only made possible by funds they receive from JTF. Another ridiculous assertion by the "politically correct" vandal above is that JTF has no members. JTF is raising funds to help save Israel and eventually America. It does not have the time to formally recruit and organize membership drives. But if JTF is so tiny and devoid of support, why does the leftist vandal above spend so much of his time for so many years monitoring JTF's activities? The vandal above is a liar. By the way, I am not Jewish. If the vandal above continues to violate Wikipedia's rules, I will complain to the editors and he will be banned from Wikipedia. If he wants to make legitimate criticism that is based on facts, fine. But to intentionally lie and to vandalize is unacceptable.

Careful on the language you use. Calling editors sick, cowardly, arrogant and ignorant is considered a personal attack which are against Wikipedia policy and can get you blocked.
While I personally would not label JTF a ¨white supremist¨ group I would call it a hate group. I have a collection of over 60 episodes of JTF and about half of them contain hateful remarks about people of other races as a whole. This can not be disputed. If anyone wants I can send them a copy of some of the articles in question.
Looking through the edit history I see where two of you have been slowly and steadily turning this article into something meant to glorify JTF and play down the hate aspect of the ¨group¨.
As of the money being used by JTF, Chaim himself admits he is unemployed. Doing a google news search for Jewish Task Force comes up with nothing. A normal google search comes up with entries that are mostly in blogs regarding JTF. It would seem the media is largely ignoring or not aware of JTF´s activities. You say there are articles in Hebrew that show where the money is going? Can you point them out? Sure, he might spend money on advertising, but that is advertisment simply meant to get more donations. 196.22.1.2 10:06, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

RESPONSE TO MALICIOUS ATTACKS ON JTF BY ONE OBSESSED READER

You admit that JTF is not a "white supremacist" group yet you keep posting on the JTF article the term "white supremacist" to describe JTF. This proves your dishonesty, your malice and your intent to deceive readers.

Criticism of black leaders or rappers or street gangs is not racism. It is legitimate criticism of a culture of crime and violence. Your attempt to censor all criticism is a form of totalitarian "political correctness" that has no place in a free society.

I am amused by your absurd claim that the current JTF article "glorifies" JTF. The opposite is true. The article unnecessarily dwells on liberal criticism of JTF. The article is written in a way where most readers will not have a positive view of the group. But you will not be happy unless malicious and lying attacks are also included.

Chaim is not unemployed. He sold his private and lucrative business so that he could spend full-time helping the heroic people that he loves in Yesha. He made that clear on the program. Yet you maliciously describe that as being unemployed. Early retirement to be a full-time volunteer for an idealistic cause is not unemployment. But you intentionally distort every aspect of what Chaim or other JTF leaders say.

I am not the one who wrote about Hebrew articles, but I know that his daily advertising in Israel does not request or receive any donations from the young Jewish soldiers, students and Yesha pioneers who go to the right-wing web sites where the ads appear. These young Jews do not have any money to contribute. The daily ads make no request for money whatsoever. They only publicize the two popular Hebrew internet programs that Noam Federman and Chaim host every week. But you maliciously claim that the advertising is to obtain donations. You also deliberately ignore the fact that the leader of the Hilltop Youth, Noam Federman, credits Chaim with funding the activities of his group and does a weekly program through JTF.

Speaking of being unemployed, you seem to have an awful lot of spare time on your hands spending so many hours monitoring JTF. Do you have a job? Do you have a girlfriend? Or a maybe a boyfriend? If JTF is so unimportant, why do spend so much time on it? Do you also monitor the PLO, Hamas, the Black Muslims and other groups who call for genocide against all non-Muslims or do you feel they are not hate groups? Instead of making up lies about JTF, do you ever tell the TRUTH about the real haters and mass murderers of this world?

While I have never had the privilege of meeting Chaim, I do write him letters and he always answers. He answers even though I have never sent him any money.



JTF and ¨White Supremist¨

Okay, first thing... You seem to think that all of the critical comments were made by one person while they were in fact made by several different people.

Chaims racism goes far beyond black leaders and criminals in his program and you know that. He openly says he wants all blacks to be sent back to Africa, calls black men violent, stupid, lazy etc. He has also told his listeners that it would be a good thing if everyone stopped buying Arab oil so that the Arab nations would starve due to lack of money. The list goes on and on.

I have gone through the history of your edits and it is very clear you are here on Wikipedia on a mission to paint Chaim in the best manner possible while playing down racism. Your only other edits have been on similar topics such as JDL.

While his advertisments of the program may not be direct requests for donations, anyone who listens to his shows are bombarded with requests asking for donations while promising blessings from God for doing so.

And, yes, I do monitor other hate groups. Fortunately I feel JTF is less dangerous because there are no obvious efforts to do anything but bring in donations. The ones to worry about are groups such as Hamas, National Alliance, National Socialist Movement and such because they mobilize and organize.

RESPONSE TO OBSESSED READER

YOU are the one who repeatedly wrote in the JTF article that JTF is a "white supremacist" group even though you have admitted that you do not believe that this is true. So you are an admitted liar who sought to deceive readers. Nothing you say has any credibility. Your latest claim that "others" have posted these critical comments is also a pathetic lie. While a couple of the minor critical comments above were posted by others, YOU have posted all of the main anti-JTF comments and you have vandalized the JTF article repeatedly with statements that you know are not true. At least be man enough to admit when you do something.

Chaim does NOT advocate sending all blacks back to Africa. He only advocates offering those who hate whites and Jews and who hate America, financial compensation if they agree to permanently leave. His proposal is for a voluntary and fully compensated repatriation of blacks who claim to love Africa and who hate what they call "racist" America. Abraham Lincoln actually proposed an involuntary black return to Africa but his proposal was defeated in the U.S. Senate by one vote. Chaim has also stated many times that his proposal also applies to whites who hate America: they would also be offered financial compensation to voluntarily agree to surrender their U.S. citizenship and to permanently leave the U.S. with the understanding that they will never be allowed to return even to visit. Many black leaders such as Marcus Garvey also advocated that blacks return to Africa. This proposal is not racist.

As far as making America energy independent so that we do not buy oil from Arab Muslims who hate us, have murdered us and seek to destroy us, in my opinion, only an anti-American traitor would say we should continue to fund Islamic terrorist genocide by buying oil from Arab Muslim terrorist nations like Saudi Arabia and Iran. Chaim has said that without oil exports, America's Arab Muslim enemies would either have to control their population boom or starve. You are more concerned about America's enemies than about America. No wonder you hate JTF!

Your claim that JTF's programs "bombard" listeners with appeals for donations is another lie. Chaim spends a minute or two at the most talking about donations during the course of a half hour program. That's on his English-language programs. On the Hebrew programs, Chaim NEVER asks for any money for JTF. He urges Israeli listeners to contribute directly to Noam Federman's organization in Israel. On the two Hebrew sections of the JTF web site, ONLY the address for Noam's Hilltop Youth group are listed for donations. Despite the fact that Federman, the Hilltop Youth, Baruch Marzel and the Chayil Party have credited JTF as being their primary source of funding from the U.S., you continue to knowingly lie and write on the JTF article that there is no accounting for where the money is going. If you were not a "politically correct" leftist, and if you agreed with JTF's philosophy, would you still be making such silly accusations? Your accusations are not based on facts, they are colored by your political bias. You grab at any straw you can find to attack JTF and even when you are completely refuted, you re-write the same lies on the article to intentionally mislead readers. Do you have any morals or ethics at all, or is any dirty tactic acceptable?

You say you do monitor other groups. I don't believe you. Have you also vandalized their articles? Do you have a million tapes of their programs too? I doubt it. And the groups you mention are all groups that it is "politically correct" to oppose. You mention Hamas, but not the PLO, even though the PLO has murdered 100 times more people than Hamas. You mention neo-Nazi groups but not any black hate groups. Farakhan who compares himself to Hitler is not worthy of being monitored apparently. Black Muslim haters who organize marches with a million participants are taken less seriously by you than Nazi groups who have a much smaller following. I can see why JTF would bother someone like you.

User:24.193.128.76

Please stop removing other users comments, despite the fact that you don't agree with them.

You--the racist from South Africa who has the nerve to call the heroes of JTF "racist"--you are the one who has repeatedly removed other users' comments. Incidentally, you should also learn how to spell, read and write before you write articles. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.193.128.76 (talk • contribs) 21:37, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)


RFC

I know very little of this subject, having been attracted by the RFC. However reading the article it seemed highly POV critical of the Jewish Task Force. I feel a thorough NPOV rewrite from the bottom up may be required. David | Talk 11:11, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

JTF racist? You decide!

For those who still question if JTF is racist or not, please listen to both "Jewish Task Force" and "Take Back America" on www.jtf.org.

About 7 minutes into the program [1] Chaim calls leftist Jews in the US "Self-hating kikes" and then follows with "you give your money and all your money goes to baboons. Instead of helping the Jewish homeland ... you help these Jew hating baboons .. and what you do in the colleges is teach African history and you have African history professors ... you teach history of people who are hundreds of millions of them in Africa and not one has has ever invented one thing - not one thing since the beginning of time - except for AIDS, and West Nile virus and destroying cities and destorying everything they touch and basically smelly."

Comments, anyone? 168.209.98.35 15:42, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)


You wrote articles on wikipedia in support of the Nazi white supremacist founders of the white racist minority regimes that introduced apartheid and racial genocide to southern Africa. Then you call JTF "racist." The hypocrisy and the double standard that you employ are transparent. You also have written in favor of the Islamic and Arab terrorist enemies of America--which again is consistent with the Nazi groups that you support, all of whom applauded the 911 attacks which murdered 3,000 innocent Americans. Of course, you try to deny your racist views because you will be banned from wikipedia if you acknowledge them. Also, it is quite dangerous for a white racist like you to openly admit his views in the South Africa of today where there is an overwhelming black majority. But your true history is that of a South African supporter of racist apartheid and genocide. You hate JTF because JTF's courageous and "politically incorrect" criticism of black leaders undermines the Nazi claim that the Jews are always on the side of blacks--a claim which obviously is not true. You simply make things up and then put them in the articles that you write. You write in the article that Craig Winn intentionally mistranslates the Koran to paint Islam in a bad light. You know damn well that that's a dirty lie. Every quote in Craig Winn's books are backed up by tranlations from the Arab Muslims themselves. JTF has a section of the web site toward the bottom where they direct readers toward the world's most prominent ARAB MUSLIM web site that translates the Koran into English-- so that readers could read the Koran translated by the Arab Muslims themselves to see for themselves that the Koran and the Islamic Hadith command all Muslims to forcibly convert or physically exterminate all non-Muslims. When I placed in the article the fact that JTF has a section that enables readers to read the Koran translated by the Arab Muslims themselves--a fact that anyone can check--you deleted that and replaced it with your lies about the Christian scholar Craig Winn, who unlike you, is a man of integrity and principles. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.193.128.76 (talk • contribs) 09:31, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Now I am not only a Nazi but also white? Why does my ID have me classified as an Indian? Must be those Nazis who work in home affairs who thought I was white and just had a dark tan!!! Damn Nazis are everywhere, aren't they? Pesky Nazis!! Oh, and I was 12 years old at the end of apartheid. I guess I must have been a very very naughty young baby, huh?
I know you will not answer this, but here goes anyway. What did I make up? What is in the article that can not be proven by your own shows? And the quotes from Winn were not direct translations. According to Winn, it is a so-called blend of the 5 or so other translations. Google search the quotes Winn gives and you will find no reference to them on the net other by Prophet Of Doom. Sure, you do have a valid link on your website pointing to proper translations of the Koran - I never said you didn't. The surahs/verses/whatever you picked are usually taken out of context, although I will be the first to admit that I to find some of what I read in the Koran to be frightening... After all.. I am a Hindu which they called Idolators.
So why not comment on the contents of this weeks 2 programs on JTF website? 168.209.98.35 16:42, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is amazing. Do you ever do anything else other than track JTF and support white supremacist founders of apartheid? The minute I place a comment on, you are here with a reply. No matter what time of day. You obviously just sit by your computer all day long wondering about JTF. This is not normal behavior. As far as your claim that you are an Indian and a Hindu, can you prove that? Give us your ID information and we will check it. I wrote to Yosef Ben Meir, who lived in South Africa for many years and still has some prominent friends there, to tell him about all of this. He never heard of wikipedia and told me not to waste my time with this. Until I told him about your defense of white Nazi supremacist founders of apartheid. Then he expressed an interest. He can check your ID information very quickly. If you are an Indian and a Hindu, then you are even sicker than I originally thought. For you to write articles defending white Nazi founders of apartheid who considered Indians to be subhuman is self-hating behavior to say the least. I know that some South African Indians hate the blacks for a variety of reasons and therefore are nostalgic for the old apartheid days. This leads some of them to defend white Nazis who detest them. If you are a Hindu and you are defending Islam all of the time, you are even sicker. The Muslim Nazis have murdered millions of innocent Hindus in the Indian subcontinent. Your defense of Muslims--if you are a Hindu-- is like a Jew defending the German Nazis. Definitely not normal. But until you prove that you are really Indian and Hindu, I am skeptical. Either way, the injustice you have committed against JTF and the other racist things you have done in wikipedia are evil and unforgivable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.193.128.76 (talk • contribs) 10:14, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I will not part with my ID information, however I am willing to meet him. If he is in Cape Town tell him I can meet him at the V&A Waterfront for coffee. A nice, neutral place where I don't have to worry about my physical safety. Oh, and I will leave my Nazi regalia at home out of respect for him.
Secondly, I don't have to prove anything. You are the one who lied, not me. You claim you are not near Chaim and his chums and have never met him, yet you connect with a cable modem in New York City. Then you run to the Queens library and launch an assault from there too hoping to trick people into thinking you are two seperate people which makes me outnumbered.
Thirdly, I don't think you will ever understand this, but all of the articles written from this IP are not from me. This IP is what is called a Proxy Server. What a proxy server does is hide the entire ISP (in this case my ISP is Internet Solutions, which has over 60,000 customers) behind one IP address for web browsing. Ask your "brilliant, magnificient and genius webmaster" explain to you (assuming you aren't him) what a proxy server is.
Fourthly, I was not defending Islam. Re-read what I have said. I have said earlier that I am frightened by what I read in the Koran. One area I do agree with JTF is that Muhammad was an evil person and Islam is a violent religion. But I don't hate all Muslims because of it.
Lastly, I have done nothing evil or unforgivable on wikipedia. I just simply told the truth. The fact that you have not, and probably will not, address any of the issues in the article and just attack me as a person using Strawman methods is proof of such. 168.209.98.35 17:50, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

First, YOU are the one who wrote the articles defending the white supremacist founders of apartheid. Stop hiding behind your IP explanations.

Second, you repeatedly wrote in the JTF article that JTF is a "white supremacist" organization. You placed that phrase in the very first sentence of the article over and over again. Yet you yourself admitted that you do not believe that this is true. So you have admitted to placing malicious lies in the wikipedia articles. You are the one who has to prove everything you say because you have openly lied to wikipedia readers.

Third, you keep mentioning a Queens library. I don't what you're talking about and I doubt that anyone else does.

Fourth, you have defended Islam a million times already. You even made up lies about Craig Winn to whitewash what you now admit is a "violent" religion founded by an "evil" man (your words). If JTF had used the language that you have just used against Mohammed and Islam, you would have called it "racist."

Fifth, every one who has seen your hatchet job article on JTF agrees that it is, at the very least, very biased and unfair. To knowingly write lies to promote your biased and twisted view of the world is indeed evil and unforgivable. I would love to see what South Africans think of an Indian Hindu (if you really are one) who defends white supremacists, defends Islamic mass murderers of his own people, and tries to smear others with articles that are blatantly prejudiced. You are a very sick person. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.193.128.76 (talk • contribs) 11:38, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • sigh* I did not write that article about Pretorious, nor did I write 70 percent of the stuff this IP has written. This is the last time I am going to mention it.
I'm not sure if you are Chaim, err I mean Victor, or the webmaster. Part of me thinks you are Victor because you repeat the same thing over and over and over again. Also, your diction is very similar to his. Like Victor, everything you say is a rehash of what have you already said earlier. Nazi this, Nazi that. Bolshevik leader so and so, blah blah.
I have not lied, you have. You constantly dodge the fact that you said you were not near Chaim and yet you have proven to be a liar because your IP has been traced to a New York City ISP. And you know very well what I mean when I speak of the Queens public library incident. The comments left from that IP were the same style as yours.
I did not make up evil lies about Mr Winn. I stated the truth. His "translations" are not one of the ones the rest of the world uses. He twisted the meanings of the various valid translations to come up with his own. I believe Mr Winn could have got the same message through by using valid translations rather than his own and it would have been more respected.
You say that the article is biased and unfair. What part of it? Let's get down to business and discuss the article! Do you deny JTF is racist? Do you deny JTF is homophobic and anti-Islamic? Do you deny Chaim was convicted of terrorist attacks and is a felon? What part of the article, as it is now, don't you agree with?
Finally, what did you think about Victor calling blacks baboons and liberal US Jews as kikes? 168.209.98.35 19:05, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • OK, enough of this, User:24.193.128.76. Your personal attacks are not acceptable here, regardless of the position you are defending or attacking. Further personal attacks by you on this page will be immediately removed. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 19:01, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Jpgordon, can we have some other wikipedians who are known for being neutral to come in and redo this article? I am willing to stop editing the article and let other people do it as long as they are neutral. The only reason I stepped in was that 24.193.128.76 was turning this into brochureware for JTF - even going so far as to call JTF a "civil rights organization"!!
As you can clearly see, there is no way me and 24.193.128.76 will come to an agreement on the article. I have put in a request for RfC but nobody has taken up the task to help us sort it out. is there anything else I can do? 168.209.98.35 19:19, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Neither version is great; most of the stuff in this version is unsourced, and most of the stuff in the other version is unsourced and silly. Ideally descriptions like "racist" should be attributed. Jayjg (talk) 19:52, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

... you teach history of people who are hundreds of millions of them in Africa and not one has has ever invented one thing - not one thing since the beginning of time - except for AIDS, and West Nile virus and destroying cities and destorying everything they touch and basically smelly.

Has this guy ever heard of George Washington Carver? How about Ernest Everett Just? Martin Luther King, Jr.? The list goes on and on.… → JarlaxleArtemis 05:46, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

Rewrite

I've begun a total NPOV rewrite which is at Talk:Jewish Task Force/Rewrite. Anyone else is welcome to join in. David | Talk 23:19, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for getting the ball rolling, David. I think the major three POV issues are the following:
  • Is JTF racist?
  • Is JTF a legitimate organization that does what Victor claims they do with donation money.
  • Does JTF have members? Who are they?
Having read the rewrite I think the racism aspect should be expanded on. I don't think most people feel JTF is racist because of their immigration policy, I think they feel they are racist by the things they say on their program. If you read the bold quote above you will notice there is no reference to immigration in Victor's racist tirade against blacks. Both of his programs are full of such racism. The first program, Jewish Task Force, attacks blacks and leftist Jews. The second program, Take Back America, Victor picks up where he left off on Mexicans and further attacks Mexicans and Arabs.
For me, personally, the racist issue is the one that bothers me. I don't care if Victor is pocketing money that people are foolish enough to send him in what I believe is a scam. Searching on the Internet shows no evidence of the work he claims he is doing; We simply have to believe what he says. 168.209.98.35 07:14, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Chaim Ben Pesach

Image:Cbp.jpg
Picture of Chaim Ben Pesach from a Florida Jewish newspaper speaking in a synagogue in Florida. This picture appeared on JTF.ORG.

Chaim was not in Kahane Chai. He supports Kach, not the Kahane Chai splinter party.

Racist is an opinion.

Just like calling blacks monkeys is an opinion, so he is calling Chaim racist. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

If you want to call him racist, write it from a third person point of view. Say "His opponents consider him to be racist.". If you want to be fair and unbiased, present both sides form a third person point of view.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________

I agree that the main controversy here is the allegation of racism. However, just for the record, once again we see the dishonesty of the South African user when he calls JTF's fundraising a "scam" even though Noam Federman, the spiritual leader of the Hilltop Youth, has said repeatedly on the weekly Hebrew program that he does that JTF's funds go to his movement. He has repeatedly thanked Chaim Ben Pesach and JTF for funding the Hilltop Youth and credited this generous funding with making the Hilltop Youth's activities possible. Furthermore, the expensive daily advertising that JTF purchases on leading Hebrew web sites to promote Noam's vital programs are also something that anyone who reads Hebrew can see with their own eyes.

Again, you fail to read what is written and respond using Strawman methods. I never said it was a scam, I simply said that I think it is a scam. Spot the difference? I never said it was a scam on the main article. I don't know for sure if it's a scam or not, but I do have an opinion and that is what I gave. I do know for sure that JTF is racist as can easily be verified by listening to the programs currently available for download on jtf.org. 168.209.98.35 17:22, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Why do NEVER tell the truth? You wrote on the old main article that "many" believe that Chaim simply uses the money to enrich himself and then added that Chaim "admits" he is unemployed. (I am not using your exact language but that is in essence what you wrote.) Who are these "many" people? You just made it up like you make up most things. When presented with irrefutable FACTS (yes, FACTS, those annoying things that you never use in the main articles that you deliberately distort), you ignore the facts and make up more false allegations. I hate to dwell on this because it is a side issue, but it undermines your credibility on the main racial issue as well.

It is true, many don't take JTF and their fundraising seriously (especially the media, that is why JTF is not reported anywhere). It is also true that Chaim admits that he is unemployed, he said so in several of his shows several times.
How do you consider what Mr. Federman says to be irrufatable facts? Victor just said that blacks were baboons and liberal Jews were kikes, does that make it a fact? No. The simple fact is that there is no evidence to support Victor's claims.
As of undermining my integrity regarding my stance on the racism issue of JTF, I don't think it has been undermined. All I ask is that people listen to the programs and let them make up their own mind... They only have to listen for 7 minutes before the racist tirade begins. If they don't have an audio card I have given them some quotes up above. 168.209.98.35 17:59, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You in effect said that "many" believe that Chaim is stealing the money he raises. Now you say that the "many" refers to the media. I challenge you to quote one media source that has made this allegation--just one. Once again, you are just making things up. Now Noam Federman is also lying? And the expensive daily advertising by JTF on Hebrew web sites to promote Noam's programs--you once wrote that these ads are also designed to raise money to enrich Chaim. Even though the ads and the Hebrew programs NEVER request any money for JTF, only donations to Noam's organization in Israel. The media does not take Noam and the Hilltop Youth seriously? Removing the Hilltop Youth outposts which they established in Yesha is the very first demand made of Israel in Bush's anti-Israel Middle East "road map." Bush brings it up in every meeting that he has in the White House with Mideast leaders. The people from Noam's movement who are blocking roads and engaging in mass civil disobedience in Israel are not taken seriously? Your statements are getting more ridiculous by the minute. I know you want to get away from this issue and concentrate solely on the racial allegation because this issue undermines your credibility. But this issue is relevant to the racial issue because it proves that in your evil and obsessive hatred for JTF, you simply make things up.

Please, leave the Strawman alone!! I never said that "many" refers solely to the media. I said that it includes the media. Spot the difference? De-ja-vu???
So what about the collections of "donations" made to JTF years and years before Mr. Federman was released and started up his program that required all of the expensive ads to promote his program? JTF has for at least 10 years, that I know of, been collecting money and for what? Why is no mention of this "relief" organization mentioned on the web or in the press? Where can I find ANYTHING to show JTF is passing on the funds to anything other than Victor's "organization expenses"? Mr. Federman's statements are not proof in itself.
Also, I am not trying to shy away from this topic. Feel free to further discuss it. But please, for a change, ANSWER my questions. I answer yours. A favor of a reply is requested. 168.209.98.35 18:59, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Noam's organization has been active since way before JTF came into existence. Noam's group was active--under a different name, Kach-- since the murder of Rabbi Meir Kahane, zl, in 1990 by Al Qaeda Muslim terrorists. I am not sure exactly when JTF came into existence, but JTF could not raise money for Noam until Chaim completed his probation, which I believe was in 1998. A condition of Chaim's probation was that he was to have no contact with Kahanist organizations. I know because I was in court along with several hundred other JTF supporters when the government tried to place Chaim back in prison because they claimed that he secretly was sending all of JTF's money to Kahanist groups in violation of his probation conditions. The federal judge found Chaim guilty of the probation violation but decided not to place him back in prison. Once his probation ended, Chaim was free to send money to the Kahanist heroes in Israel again. JTF funded the Hilltop Youth's first establishment of hilltop outposts in Yesha in late 1998. Anyone who visits Israel can ask Noam if they doubt this. When Baruch Marzel ran for the Knesset in 2001, JTF placed ads in all of the major Israeli newspapers the weekend before the election on Marzel's behalf. The ads cost at least $20,000. JTF sent the money to Noam in Israel and he placed the ads. I could go on and on. Very few organizations have such a high level of accountability with funds the way JTF does.

Everyone should conclude the following: if you believe that the South African's allegations on JTF donations are true, then you should also believe that the racism charges are true; but if you believe that the South African's allegations on JTF donations are preposterous and have been proven to be false, then you should also believe that the racial allegations are false. Let us adopt this as our objective standard in determining if the racial allegations are true or if you are deliberately distorting JTF's message.

Okay, so using your logic if one part of my arguement is incorrect, then all of my arguements are incorrect. Let's go with that!
Everyone should conclude the following: if you believe the above JTF activist editor here is true when he says that JTF is not racist then you should also agree his allegations regarding JTF money being spent as is claimed is also also true.
Go to www.jtf.org and click in "Jewish Task Force". Listen for when you hear "you give your money and all your money goes to baboons. Instead of helping the Jewish homeland ... you help these Jew hating baboons .. and what you do in the colleges is teach African history and you have African history professors ... you teach history of people who are hundreds of millions of them in Africa and not one has has ever invented one thing - not one thing since the beginning of time - except for AIDS, and West Nile virus and destroying cities and destorying everything they touch and basically smelly."
Okay, you have now listened it to it. Is JTF racist? What do YOU think? The above editor says no, JTF is not racist, and also says Victor is spending the JTF donations as he claims he is. If you think JTF is racist, and disagree with the above editor, then you must discount ALL of what the above editor says. 168.209.98.35 20:20, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Now we are getting somewhere. If everyone will accept the above standard, we can determine the truth. I have clearly explained and proven where JTF money goes and anyone who reads Hebrew or who visits Israel or has relatives in Israel can check if what I am saying is true. Now even the South African is willing to accept that if what I am saying is true on donations, then what I am saying is also true on the racial issue. Therefore, if the South African's statements that JTF is a "scam" and that Chaim is lying and Noam is lying and the daily Hebrew ads are a scam and that the Hebrew programs are not sincere attempts to save Israel but rather another scam to enrich Chaim and that when Chaim went to prison for five and a half years to liberate Soviet Jews that was not a sincere sacrifice but rather another money-making scam-- if you believe this, then you should believe the South African's racial charges. But if you believe that the South African's donations claims are absurd lies that he simply makes up because of his ugly and irrational hatred toward JTF, then you should also conclude that the JTF racial "quotes" that he keeps referring to are only his personal "politically correct" opinion and that others may conclude that those quotes are not racist at all. He takes the quotes out of context and assumes that criticism of certain types of blacks is an attack on all blacks, which is a lie. And he ignores the fact that Chaim has said that he loves black Ethiopian Jews and considers them to be his brothers and sisters. As far as baboons are concerned, Chaim uses the term against evil whites as well. Every single person who has written comments here has concluded that the South African's JTF article was biased and unfair. He keeps confusing opinion and fact.

You really don't get it, do you? You have proven NOTHING. You have said a lot but given us nothing to verify the facts on. Give us something other than your comments, something we can verify ourselves. Give us URLs and such.
As of taking the quotes out of context, what a joke. The entire episode is there for people to listen to and I hope they do listen to it. As of the Black Ethiopian Jews, he does not consider them his brothers and sisters!!! He called them "Hebrow" (mix between Hebrew and Negro).

Folks, don't take my word for it. Go to www.jtf.org and listen to both programs. Please, do it. If anyone has an JTF program episode in which Victor calls whites baboons, please let me know what episode. I haven't heard it before and I thought I had most of the collection! 168.209.98.35 21:02, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

We will let the readers conclude if I have proven nothing. Some of them listen to Noam's Hebrew JTF programs, and they can also check JTF's very expensive daily advertising on Rotter, SOS and other popular Hebrew web sites. That's my proof on donations. Now where is yours? YOU are the one who has offered nothing. Back up your allegations on donations. Even you agreed that if your allegations on donations are false, then the racial quotes you have taken out of context are also false. Let's stick to that objective standard and let the readers decide for themselves. Chaim never called Ethiopian Jews "Hebros". He used the term "Hebros" to describe a racist cult called the Black Hebrews who claim that all whites are devils and who were allowed to stay in Israel. American Jews and Gentiles also know about this cult which preaches on the streets of major American cities using obscenities to curse all white passers by. Why do keep making statements about subjects that you know nothing about just to make up more groundless allegations? All of this controversy is great for JTF. Activist groups like JTF thrive on controversy. But you will have the last word in our exchange today, because unlike you, I have a job and a family.

The Black Hebrews call themselves Hebros in Ebonics. They say that "dey be da original Hebros".

Chaim Ben Pesach On Good Blacks

Chaim supports good blacks like Alan Keyes, whom he calls "needles in a hay stack exception here and there". He said he doesn't hate people based on race but rather by their evil culture. If there are good blacks without an evil culture, he doesn't hate them.

Chaim was asked the following question in an interview at http://www.suck.com/daily/2000/02/10/daily.html .

Qustion:

You've been pretty tough on all the presidential candidates: The site refers to "Jorge Bush" and "Al Whore," and you call Bill Bradley "another monstrous traitor." Do you see any viable candidate right now?

Answer:

Well the word "viable" creates the problem there. I like Alan Keyes — when I say "I" I mean "we," because I don't make the decisions for the group. We like Alan Keyes, but unfortunately he can't win. We think there's a need for a right-wing third party in this country that will finally create a basis for resistance to policies that we think are destroying this country. America is on its way to becoming a third-world majority country. Everybody knows that; all the statisticians agree. The only dispute is about when. We see that as very alarming. Everybody else seems to welcome it as something wonderful. We think it's horrible and alarming, and we think it's the end of this country if that happens. We desperately want to put together a right-wing movement in this country that will respond to that and save America. America was built by white Anglos who made this a great country. And I know it creates terrible hysterical condemnation when somebody speaks like this, but it is my belief that if the white Anglo majority becomes a minority that will be the end of America, and that will be a terrible tragedy for everyone.

Therefore, this proves he supports a black candiate for President. Chaim hates most people because he believes most people are evil. Considering he hates most whites as well, it is remarkable he would support a black candiate for President. He likes Keyes more than most white politicians.

Chaim also likes Orientals whom he refers to as "Asians", something a true white supremacist would never do. He says they are human beings and are not dumb like the affirmative action blacks are. Only bad blacks are affirmative action. He uses affirmative action to mean dumb or unqualified for a job. He also likes Asian Indians and American Indians. He just said it's true that this country was improved when whites came in. He does say this is a white country and he believes Asian Indians are out of place here but he also says he believes Jews are out of place here. He says Indians belong in India and Jews belong in Israel. True, he has made comments against sending jobs to India, but that is only because he supports the rights of American workers, unlike Bush, the phony "Conservative". He says Indians and Orientals are smart.


Chaim is a RACIST and the only reason he likes Alan Keyes is because Alan was running against Barak Obama, and Chaim hates Obama. Alan is also more intelligent than Chaim and most whites for that matter.

I really don't give a damn what Chaim dislikes and likes. He is in no place to make claims about who belongs where and what should happen to who. Chaim got banned from Israel and he has nowhere to go. Fortunately for him America tends to pick up trash here and there. This piece of garbage is a PARIAH. White supremacists think he is a dirty Jew. Blacks, Arabs and Hispanics would kill him if he talked his bullshit to them. He has nowhere to hide except his Fresh Meadows GHETTO. I am so happy that JTF is a weak, laughable "organization". Regardless how much racism this guy preaches, GAZA is BEING HANDED OVER to the ARABS and America is becoming more and more interracial. I just love to see how everything he works for is being thrown away. I watch JTF when it comes on just so I can laugh at this piece of shit. -KING SNARKY

I would never cast a vote for Barack Obama. Never. Alan Keyes is a living example that blacks are capable of being well educated and are not all shiftless and lazy. Barack Obama is a mullato and yet he is nowhere near as intelligent as Alan Keyes. So, that myth that whites are genetically smarter than blacks is just that, a myth. It is typical to hear another black person and liberal whites resorting to name-calling and personal attacks whenever Alan Keyes is mentioned. He is the kind of politician that I would love to have as a President, but because he is black there is not a realistic chance of him winning if he decided to run again. And in his own right, Chaim Ben Pesach is remarkably intelligent. He is fluent in Hebrew, Spanish, and Arabic.
Who cares about what white supremacists think? They think you're a dirty [...] as well. Unless of course you are a white supremacist, and if you are one, you should drop dead. Most of these supremacists, black and white, are so stupid that they think that Jews cannot possibly be white. Ashkenazi Jews are most certainly white. The Sephardic Jews are a bit swarthier, but they are also white. The Aryan race in reality are Indians from India (Indo-Europeans), and I absolutely love it when neo-Nazis refer to themselves as Aryans. It just displays how stupid they are. Black supremacists are by far even more moronic than your typical delusional white supremacist. A wonderful living example of this would be Louis Farrakhan. Well, it's not wonderful that he's alive, but I thank the Almighty for mortality. You should read up on the the theological doctrine that he subscribes to. It is complete and utter moronic nonsense. Also, take into consideration the massive number of blacks who are members of this cult.
I'm really not afraid of violent Arabs, Hispanics, or blacks anymore. They're like roaches. I'm sure Chaim Ben Pesach isn't concerned about them either. They contribute nothing positive to society. Their whole existence is parasitic. You know, I went to visit some of my relatives who still live in that hellish place called Bed-Stuy. While I was driving through that neighborhood I saw a church called the "Temple of Zion" and I literally wanted to throw up. It is such a blatant reminder of the fact that the neighborhood was once predominantly Jewish and was once a considerably wonderful place to live in. Morally bankrupt people cannot build or sustain great communities. There is so much gang warfare, that it makes it impossible for the decent people in the community to live in peace. These gangs are so reminiscent of the tribes in Africa. Yet, there are gun control laws which effectively prevent the good blacks from helping to maintain their neighborhoods and defend themselves against these pathetic miscreants. The police are viewed as racist and untrustworthy, when they are especially needed in these increasingly more violent areas.
I would not have a problem with an increasingly interracial U.S. if only the current immigrants coming to this country made an effort to maintain the cultural heritage and greatness of America. But sadly, you know this is not the reality. Let's be honest here. And because of our current situation here, I believe immigration should temporarily be banned immediately. At the least for a minimum of ten years.
Chaim is "hiding" in the "ghetto" of Fresh Meadows? If you're referring to the literal meaning of the word or either the more commonly known and essentially erroneous definition of it, you are wrong on both counts. Fresh Meadows is a beautiful neighborhood, made up of many different ethnic groups. In fact, along with Bayside, Douglaston Manor, Jamaica Estates, and Holliswoods, it is a very desirable place to live.
Rabbi Meir Kahane, who was a remarkably calm person, was banned from Israel also! What is your point? Israel, although it is the most desirable place to live in the entire Middle East, is not a sane nation. They have been at war with the surrounding Arab countries since day one of its coming back into existence as predicted in the Bible. Much like the United States right now, Israel is refusing to to properly fight this ongoing war. While the U.S. is busy forging relationships with that worthless prick Tony Blair and his pathetic parliament, we should be maintaining a strong alliance with Israel and exchanging vital intelligence with her. Their stuggle will inevitably be our stuggle. We are doing everything wrong. The Patriot Act, the continuation of oil importation from Saudi Arabia, appeasing Islamic thugs, trying to make alliances with European countries who despise us, irresponsibly wasting our own money on relieving third world debt, I can go on and on. We might as well have an Islamic lunatic run this country. --24.47.31.1 00:22, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Who's who?

Could participants please sign their messages (using four tildes: ~~~~)? It makes it very difficult to follow the discussion otherwise. I'm having enough trouble anyway, because (so far as I can tell) the anon who's trying to defend the JTF and Kahane is painting as unpleasant and racist a picture as the anon who's criticising them. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:59, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Opinion versus fact

There is more than one pro-JTF writer in the recent comments -- I think there are three. I agree that it can get confusing and everyone should delineate their individual comments more clearly. I will try to do so in the future.

Your statement that an "unpleasant and racist" picture is being painted is an opinion, not a fact. Many people -- especially in the United States -- would strongly disagree with your opinion. The problem we have here is that left-wing opinions are now in the JTF article, instead of facts. Either these are to be objective articles that give both sides, or one-sided articles that present a totally prejudiced point of view. If opinions are going to be presented as facts, I believe that most readers will object.

Furthermore, accusations should not be made unless there is some factual basis. Just making things up out of sheer hatred will produce a justifiable backlash. == == —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.193.128.76 (talk • contribs) 00:45, 11 Jun 2005.

I take it, then, that you're the person who made the peculiar claim above: "racist is an opinion". Assuming that you mean that there's no objective fact of the matter, that's simply false. On the other hand, when faced with a clearly racist organisation, the Wikipedia approach is not to say so, but to explain clearly what the organisation says and does, so that the reader can see for herself (and to quote from respected third-parties, where applicable).It seems clear to the disinterested observer that we are dealing with racism here, and the task is to present that clearly and objectively, neither simply stating it nor trying to hide or downplay it.
For relevant policies, see Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Cite sources. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:47, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Your Bias Has Already Been Proven

You -- Mel -- restored the outrageously biased current JTF article which is a vicious, anti-Semitic diatribe against JTF that lacks even the pretense of objectivity. You are a very biased observer with a history of prejudicial thinking. You are the one who has clearly demonstrated anti-Semitic racism by your slanted decisions. Everyone else -- including writers who were quite critical of me -- agreed that the current article is extremely biased. But you want to keep it that way. There are examples of indisputable racism just as there examples of false charges of racism. In the case of JTF, the criticism of certain black leaders and a segment of the black community is not racism by any means. It is a criticism which conservative black leaders like Roy Innis, Alan Keyes and Emanuel McLittle would agree with. For you to insist that wikipedia take sides and label an organization as racist when many would strongly disagree with that characterization, proves that you are incapable of fair and objective thinking and are imposing your biased view on wikipedia readers.

I also intend to expose the racist history of the South African writer so that all of us will know who we are dealing with. This can only be done by having people in South Africa look into his history. I am working on that now. I have already spoken to someone in the South African Consulate in New York and I plan to speak to a South African journalist so that we can research his writings and expose him both here and in South Africa. I simply want to prove that all of my contentions about him are correct.

In the meantime, I noticed that you, Mel, do not intervene to place the word "racist" on articles dealing with Muslims who follow a religion that teaches them to exterminate all "kofrim" (non-Muslim infidels). Are the Koran and the Hadith of Islam racist? Have you ever read these books? Polls taken in the U.S. show that a majority of the American people believe that Islam preaches violence, terrorism, intolerance and hatred. Do you believe that exposing Islamic racism constitutes anti-Islamic bigotry as the Muslims contend? JTF is not racist, it is anti-racist -- because it exposes the hatemongering among all groups including Muslims, Arabs and blacks. Unless you believe that Muslims, Arabs and blacks are incapable of being racists.

I see for example the whitewash article on the PLO -- a vile Nazi terrorist gang of mass murderers who have slaughtered thousands of innocent Jewish men, women and children, and who committed genocide against Lebanon's Christian minority. Over 300,000 innocent Lebanese Christians were murdered in a holocaust which was perpetrated against them from 1975 to 1982. The Muslim Nazis who carried out this holocaust were the PLO, Syria and the Lebanese Muslims.

The article on the PLO could have been written by the old Arab Hitler Yasser Arafat or the new Arab Hitler Mahmoud Abbas. Why is the word "racist" which you attach to JTF never attached to the Nazi monsters of the PLO? What Jew-hating hypocrisy! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.193.128.76 (talk • contribs) 12:14, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

    • What part of sign your comments do you fail to understand? By the way, I fail to see a single anti-semitic aspect to the current locked article; it is certainly POV, but your accusations (as well as your assumptions; thousands of people in South Africa potentially share that IP address, for example, so there's no way to determine just who was using it at any given moment. At any rate, this article will need to stay locked until some sort of consensus can be reached on this page or via arbitration; perhaps a neutral third party (or one capable of writing in an NPOV manner, at least), interested in researching JTF, will come to the rescue of the article; the parties currently contesting it have demonstrated no grasp whatsoever of NPOV. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 19:33, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Actually I find his little rant rather encouraging. I've been misidentified as Jewish (and when they find out I'm not, all sorts of delightful things amounting to "Jew-lover") by racists so often on Wikipedia, that being called anti-Semitic by another sort of racist sort of balances it out a bit. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:28, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

JTF, in their own words

Folks, if any of are still not sure if JTF is racist or not, please visit their website at http://www.jtf.org and click on the "Jewish Task Force" link to their audio program. You will hear the following after the first 7 minutes... you give your money and all your money goes to baboons. Instead of helping the Jewish homeland ... you help these Jew hating baboons .. and what you do in the colleges is teach African history and you have African history professors ... you teach history of people who are hundreds of millions of them in Africa and not one has has ever invented one thing - not one thing since the beginning of time - except for AIDS, and West Nile virus and destroying cities and destorying everything they touch and basically smelly. 168.209.98.35 21:33, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • You've already used this quote three times in this discussion. Please assume, for the sake of argument, that all of us know how to read. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 01:18, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I know people can read, however this page is actually pretty large and since we are still debating if JTF is racist or not and the fact that 24.193.128.76 has never responded to the quote, I feel it deserved another reminder. 168.209.98.35 06:22, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Debating"? You're having a yelling match with someone who you will never convince and who will never convince you. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 17:40, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
By "we" I meant wikipedians in general. Also, I am not engaged in a yelling match with 24.193.128.76. Despite being attacked, insulted and threatened by him, I have tried to remain calm and did not treat him with the same disrespect he dished out on me. You are right that we will never convince each other, that is why I was hoping for someone else to come in and start on the article with a neutral mindset. 168.209.98.35 17:51, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I restored the original article to Jewish Task Force/Rewrite and put contraversial issues in a third person point of view using quotation marks around the statements viewed as POV. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.80.133.163 (talk • contribs) 17:23, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • Sign your fershlugginer postings! How is that so hard to understand??? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 01:11, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This weeks JTF program

Today is wednesday and that means we get another 1 hour dose of hatred from the JTF "organization". On Take Back America we hear quotes from the Koran and then the topic goes on to the Islamic reaction to the Newsweek article about the desecration of the Koran. At about 7 minutes into the program Victor says "That hideous satanic book should be burned and all the people who believe in it should be burned together with it. They are animals, they are beasts, they are mass-murderers and terrorists." 196.11.241.43 17:20, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Koran quotes JTF gives proves that Islam is a religion of hate. It is not offensive to say that terrorists should be brought to justice. If they are good, they would stop believing in The Koran and not be real Muslims anymore. If they don't believe in killings all the infidels, then they are no longer Muslims.

Politcal-correctness is why this country is currently in the state that it's in.

Disregarding my own personal opinions, the article is clearly biased, factually inaccurate, and should be revised by an impartial editor.


See, the good black above supports JTF proving they are not racist. And schvartza simply means black in Yiddish. It is what the color is called, not necessarily only black people.

Jewish Task Force/Rewrite

Editor's Note: This was how the Jewish Task Force article was before all the vandalism began. I suggest we return to this version.

The Jewish Task Force (JTF) is a very small Kahanist organization which is viewed by its opponents as racist and extremist and which has two weekly television shows which both air twice on QPTV, a Queens, New York public access cable TV station. It is run by the former leader of the Jewish Defense League's New York branch, Victor Vancier (known by his Hebrew name Chaim Ben Pesach). It defines itself as "fighting to save The United States and Israel from Islamic and Third World invasion".

JTF makes no public effort to recruit members to the organization. Although Chaim claims JTF is made up of Jewish and "Righteous Gentile" Religious Zionists, it is not known how many members of JTF, if any, there are. Those who wish to support JTF are simply asked for checks, money orders, or cash donations made out to JTF. JTF uses these donations to help the political efforts of their allies in Israel. They also encourage people to send donations to an organization called The Voice of Jewish Activism (VJA) which is "tax exempt and funds the humanitarian and educational needs" of their allies in Israel. The only other known JTF members are David Ben Moshe (who co-hosts one of the JTF programs with Chaim.), Yosef Ben Meir (who used to co-host one of the JTF programs with Chaim.), and the webmaster. Occasionally Chaim has other Jews as guests on the show and sometimes he has "Righteous Gentiles" as guests on the show, including Sean Reilly, an Irish Catholic, and Craig Winn, who did episdoes on what JTF considers to be "exposing Islam".

They are Anti-Muslim — they supported Slobodan Milosevic's policies in Bosnia and Kosovo and always refer to Islam's holy book as the "Muslim Nazi Koran" since they claim that it commands all Muslims to kill all "Non-Muslim infidels". However the most vitriolic of the JTF's epithets are directed at their Jewish critics. For example, JTF has referred to Ariel Sharon as a "Left-Wing Bolshevik dictator", and Revlon CEO Ronald Perelman is referred to as an "ugly, bald, self-hating kike cockroach".

JTF also espouses what is viewed by its opponents as a virulent form of racism, and some shows are entirely devoted to stereotypes of blacks and Hispanics, jokes about their physical features, caricatures of their manners of speech, etc. Chaim's experiences in his daily life have served as the basis for some of these racist screeds - for example, a problem with his cable television service resulted in a half-hour rant about the stupidity of blacks. JTF does like some blacks such as Alan Keyes and Emanuel McLittle. But they believe the majority of blacks are like Al Sharpton. JTF favors the relocation of non-whites which it views as not loyal to America. It wants to repatriate them to their place of origin with a basket of emigration giving them money to be permanently sent back to where they came from. JTF has also proposed this for non-loyal whites. They claim that they don't hate people based on race, but rather on "evil culture". Sometimes they joke about an "agricultural policy" (i.e., genocide followed by the use of the bodies for fertilizer). In keeping with this, JTF believes that Third World immigrants, are a threat to Western Civilization. They are against America becoming what they call a "Third World banana republic". Under the motto of "Saving America and Israel from Islamic Terrorism", JTF broadcasts two shows on New York public access.

JTF also supports right-wing Jewish dissidents in Israel such as the Hilltop Youth. JTF claims to lead a "righteous struggle to defeat the Bolshevik Israeli government's evil plan to give away Jewish holy land to the Arab terrorists, which is a primary goal to which Chaim Ben Pesach has dedicated his life.". It also claims that "the opinions expressed by JTF are refreshing and inspiring". They believe that "not only is JTF a breath of fresh air, but also that it is one of the only news sources to give an accurate and factual account of the week's events in America and Israel".

Other Kahanists claim JTF is not a real Kahanist organization and some of them claim that the opinions expressed by JTF are extreme. JTF is not supported by Kahane Chai or the JDL but does have known support from Noam Federman, a former Kach member, who has a show on the Hebrew section of JTF's website. JDL claims that Chaim Ben Pesach's claims that he was ever in JDL are false.

Many people believe Chaim uses his television program and website to solicit funds he claims are used to finance JTF's battle to take control of the Israeli government, but they point out that very little proof of such exists. He says that "God will bless" those that donate to JTF. A visit to their website encourages you to send them donations and include JTF in your will, yet also says "We do not respond to e-mail addresses".

Since 1998, JTF has a website which updates every Wednesday morning which Chaim runs with the help of his webmaster. The website has articles among other things as well as the audio of the two weekly JTF TV shows. It also has two Hebrew sections on its website in which there are two weekly audio programs, one which is hosted by Noam Federman, the spiritual leader of the Hilltop Youth, and the other one since February, 2005, by Chaim Ben Pesach with Gil Avraham. JTF funds both Noam Federman and the Hilltop Youth, and Baruch Marzel and the Chayil Party. The format of these shows has changed in the past, with various guest hosts and periods where Chaim has hosted both programs.

According to their website (JTF.ORG), "In a JTF television program which aired in Manhattan on Sunday, September 11, 1994 - precisely seven years to the day before the horrendous Muslim Nazi attacks on the World Trade Center and The Pentagon - Chaim Ben Pesach explicitly predicted that the Islamic terrorists who bombed the Twin Towers in 1993 would return to finish their bloody work, mercilessly murdering thousands of Americans.". Most believe this is a coincidence. His broadcast of September 11, 1994 does mention that he expects the bombers to return, but he does not make any specific predictions. Also, nearly every JTF broadcast predicts some kind of terrorist horror, making any real event coincidental with a large number of JTF pronouncements.

During the 2004 election season, Chaim claimed to be in direct contact with Republican officials, who sought out his advice. He says they paid for limousines to take him to the airport, first-class flights to Washington, and secret meetings in hotels and Glatt Kosher restaurants where they begged for his election insights. Some people believe these claims to be pure fantasy.

JTF claims to hope to raise enough money to help Baruch Marzel's Chayil Party come to power in Israel, where they would in turn fund a JTF program on national television in the United States to inspire a Right Wing "Righteous Gentile" movement to take over the U.S. government. Despite their pleas for donations, there is no accountability on the amounts of money received or what the money is being spent on. Chaim Ben Pesach admits that he is unemployed.

JTF's Seven-Point Plan

JTF also published their "Seven-Point Plan" on their website.

  1. A ferocious retaliation against all Muslim nations which have in any way aided or abetted terrorism against American citizens.
  2. The immediate destruction by the American or Israeli military of all Muslim nuclear reactors, plants and laboratories developing nuclear, chemical and/or biological weapons of mass destruction.
  3. Total energy independence for America through a crash development program funded in the defense budget as a vital national security priority.
  4. An immediate end to all U.S. foreign aid, even to a genuine friend and ally like Israel, which is harmed rather than helped by her counterproductive dependency on America's addictive welfare handouts.
  5. An immediate end to all foreign immigration into the United States, combined with the complete expulsion of America's millions of illegal aliens and the stringent removal of her legal ones at the expiration of their work or residency visas.
  6. An immediate recognition by the United States of little Israel’s G-d-given right and obligation to assert full and permanent sovereign control over all sacred Jewish Biblical lands, including Judea, Samaria, the Gaza District, the Golan Heights and eastern Jerusalem.
  7. An immediate withdrawal from the fanatically anti-American United Nations (UN) and all organizations directly or indirectly affiliated with it, and the immediate banning of all UN-related activities on American soil.

Chaim Ben Pesach

Image:Cbp.jpg
Picture of Chaim Ben Pesach from a Florida Jewish newspaper speaking in a synagogue in Florida. This picture appeared on JTF.ORG.

Chaim Ben Pesach was the former Jewish Defense League leader in New York who led efforts to free Soviet Jewry by bombing Soviet diplomatic targets in New York and by tear-gassing a Soviet ballet performance at Lincoln Center in the 1980's. He was convicted of these acts and sentenced to 5 and a half years in jail and was on parole for a while after that. Chaim says that while he was in jail, he became very thin because they wouldn't give him any kosher food until Senator Jesse Helms intervened on his behalf. Some people think he made up this claim. Upon his release, he started JTF.

Chaim Ben Pesach is banned from entering Israel. In 1997, Chaim tried to immigrate to Israel but was immediately detained in Ben-Gurion International Airport upon his arrival in Israel and was placed in administrative detention in a cell in the airport. He was not allowed to speak to an attorney nor an American Embassy official despite the fact that he is an American citizen. He was subsequently returned to the US, where he resides today in the New York metropolitan area.

On a personal note, Chaim Ben Pesach is the son of an Ashkenazic Jewish father and an Egyptian Jewish mother. He is a single and was never married. Chaim also strongly believes in eating only healthy food.

External Links

Category:Jewish organizations Category:Israel and Zionism

This is even worse than the current hatchet job article

From beginning to end, this vicious and crude yellow "journalism" piece makes up outrageous accusations against JTF.

"Very little proof" exists that JTF funds right-wing Jews who are leading the struggle against Arik Sharon's suicidal policies?! Noam Federman, the spiritual leader of the Hilltop Youth, has stated repeatedly on the Hebrew program which he does on the JTF web site that JTF is the group that funds the Hilltop Youth's activities. There is no basis whatsoever for this absurd accusation against JTF, which was made up by the South African racist Jew-hater. Any such reference should be removed.

JTF "is a very small" organization? Where is the proof of this? JTF funds right-wing groups in Israel that are clearly not small by any means. As far as JTF members in the United States, JTF does not solicit members. Neither do the United Jewish Appeal, the Salvation Army and literally thousands of other charitable organizations. Does this mean they are "very small" and that they have no known members? Again, an impartial article would not make up such desperate attempts to find a reason to bash JTF.

This article hides behind such phrases as "many people" or "most people" to malign JTF. "Many people" believe there is little proof of where JTF funds go? Who are these "many people"? Can someone prove that there are "many people" who believe this preposterous libel?

"Most" believe it is a mere "coincidence" that Chaim predicted for years that the Muslim terrorists who bombed the World Trade Center in 1993 would return to finish the job and would destroy the Twin Towers?! Baloney! People who have listened to JTF have been astounded by how their predictions have come true. Chaim repeatedly warned on program after program that the Muslim terrorists would return to finish the job at the Twin Towers. He didn't give a date because he's not a prophet, but he knew enough about Muslim terrorists and how they operate to correctly predict they would strike again. Chaim also correctly predicted that the Iraq mess would turn out exactly as it did, and when everyone assumed that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, only JTF stated over and over again that the international sanctions had crippled Iraq and that the real threat of weapons of mass destruction comes from Iran, North Korea, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Libya.

Chaim does not admit he is "unemployed." He retired from owning his own business to work full-time on the Jewish cause. This is another malicious swipe.

The "JDL" claims Chaim was never in JDL? This is hilarous. There is no JDL today! What is the JDL today and what do they do? Chaim made the JDL famous with his bombings of Soviet and Arab diplomatic targets, and with his teargassing of the Soviet ballet. He went to prison for five and a half years to free Soviet Jews. He is a great Jewish hero! A cowardly, self-hating old man in Colorado who never did a thing for JDL or the Jewish people now claims to represent the JDL and is embarrassed by true Jewish heroes like Chaim? This old man is also a member of the Anti-Defamation League and Bnai Brith and other self-hating leftist groups who publicly boasted that they acted as informers for the FBI against their fellow Jews. This comical old man knows nothing about Judaism or anything Jewish but he has appointed himself as a spokesman for a JDL that does not exist.

I read Chaim's articles on his meetings with Republican officials. He never claimed that "they begged for his election insights." Another crude example of the yellow "journalism" of this viciously biased article. Karl Rove, the White House political director, organized meetings between Republican officials and representatives of THOUSANDS of conservative, Christian and Orthodox Jewish groups before the election to insure a large right-wing turn out for Bush. They even met with the John Birch Society and some of the larger militia groups. The meeting between JTF and Republican officials was not a "pure fantasy," as the malicious article contends.

Why can't an article be written without biased opinions and crude attacks? Why can't we see a fair and impartial presentation of BOTH sides of the controversy? This original article was so one-sided and grotesque that it sparked all of the current dispute. We need to start again or this issue will never be resolved. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.193.128.76 (talk • contribs) 13:51, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • Why can't you sign your posts? Why can't you sign ALL your posts? Why can't you sign your posts without controversy? Your posts are so unsigned that they sparked all the current edit. SIGN YOUR POSTS. Thank you very much. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 22:37, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

RfC

Anyone still interested in outside comments? Or has this died down? Dan100 (Talk) 20:53, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

Posting the RfC has proven a total waste of time because nobody has come in to help sort this mess out as a result of the RfC. We are as we were weeks ago when the original request was made. I have stopped debating with the "JTF clan" because "they" refuse to answer any questions and simply make personal attacks and rant and rave. Also, the writing styles (and lack of the ability to sign their comments) of the various JTF "supporters" seem to be so similar that I personally believe they originate from the same person, which I suspect is Mr "JTF" himself, Victor (aka Chaim, as he likes to call himself). 196.11.241.43 21:29, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

(Unsigned personal attack removed.) --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 01:55, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)


I'm the African-American who commented about JTF. I refuse to leave my signature. People can do a lot with a static IP address (specifically trace where I live). I will not put myself in any kind of risk or danger to be threatened with any type of physical violence. For the record, I'm not Chaim Ben Pesach or anyone even remotely associated with him. Let me just clarify that for you. My internet service provider is Optimum Online and I do live in Long Island. The people who run Wikipedia can even verify this for you. Your beliefs, just like the claims made in your vandalism of the JTF article, are based on pure speculation. Additionally, every point you've been trying to debate has been refuted. As for the similar writing styles? Okay. I have not resorted to any type of personal attacks on you. Despite the fact that I may agree with the recent comment pertaining to your mental state. Give me an opportunity to write an impartial article with a NPOV on the JTF organization after the Christian and Jewish Sabbath. I'll see if it is possible to reach Chaim through the mailing address given on the JTF website and attempt to get a direct response from him by mail. Although, this may not even pique his radar. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.47.31.1 (talk • contribs) 03:36, 17 Jun 2005.

Your address is in the page history; refusing to sign does nothing to protect your identity, it simply makes it harder for others to follow the discussion. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:58, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

kahanechaivekayam

I'm the one who re-posted the original article. It has all the factual information about JTF that I wrote plus the South African racist's POV. I tried to neutralize the POV by adding words like "many people believe" as opposed to simply stating it as a fact.

I personally got an E-mail from Bill Maniaci of JDL and he said from conversations with Irv Rubin, he heard bad things about Chaim and that Chaim made up his being in JDL. I also talked to Kahane Chai people in Kfar Tapuach on the Kahane forum and they don't like Chaim either. It is the Kach people of Hebron that like him such as Noam Federman. Chaim also critcized David HaIvri of Kfar Tapuach because he said it was a waste of time to try to bring 10,000 Jews to The Temple Mount. Chaim said Kahane said you have to do and act on what you say, not just talk. (Kahanechaivekayam 07:09, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC))

Member-less?

Upon reading the very first sentence of this article, I noticed a blaring error:

The Jewish Task Force (JTF) is a racist Kahanist member-less organization in New York.

How the hell can an organization be memberless? It's impossible! If it existed in the past and is defunct today, then it would make sense. But it refers to the organization in the present tense.… → JarlaxleArtemis 05:36, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

Okay then, answer this: What is the JTF besides a cable show and a website which seems to do nothing but go on racial tirades and beg for money? Who are the JTF members? How do I become a member? What is the membership structure at JTF? It seems the JTF is Victor himself, but he is not a member, he is a "leader". I'm willing to see the term memberless leave the article, because the definition of "organization" seems to be very broad. 168.209.98.35 10:59, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I called JTF on the phone.

I called JTF on the phone and left a message for Chaim about Wikipedia. I agree with the comments that were deleted that indeed, most Wikipedia users are in their teens and 20's. I am 23. JTF sends a thank you letter in the mail when you donate money to the cause. When I donated $10.00, I got the letter, which is written on JTF stationary which includes their phone number. So you JTF critics, the only way you will also get their phone number is if you donate, which I know you never will do. (Kahanechaivekayam 07:10, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC))

Actually, I did donate but for reasons different than yours. I sent $5 with a supporting letter which included my e-mail address. I was hoping to get reply via postal service or e-mail just so I can find out more about them for research purposes. I never heard back from them. Then again I am outside the US, so maybe they don't reply to foreign letters. Looking back now I wished I had asked them for more information on how to include them in my will since that would most likely get a response.
That phone number you got was most likely simply a voice mail service, so I don't think it proves anything. I too can get a voice mail box in the US without even having my details verified, they just require money. Since I don't have that number I can't say for sure this is the case, but I do spot a trend with JTF - "Give us money, stay away and leave us alone!" 168.209.98.35 11:08, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)


It was Chaim's voice on the answering machine. It is a Manhattan number, starting with 212, rather than 718 of Queens. (Kahanechaivekayam 21:59, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC))

Why was my comment called vandalism? What I deleted was my own post. I reposted a newer version.

Is there now censorship on comments too? On a lot of Israel related articles, taking out Pro-Arab bias is called POV. Why can't people just make neutral comments without it being POV? I would prefer to write Israel liberated land in The Six Day War but I write took over instead. Occupy is POV. So is liberated. So there must be neutral language. Wikipedia only thinks the "politically correct" version is not POV. And political correctness is automatically against Israel.

Sorry. I reverted it because a lot of other sections of this page were red in the "Compare selected versions" page. → JarlaxleArtemis 06:42, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

This is my update to the rewrite article which was labeled as "vandalism".

The Jewish Task Force (JTF) is a Kahanist organization which is viewed by its opponents as racist and extremist and which has two weekly television shows which both air twice on QPTV, a Queens, New York public access cable TV station. It is run by the former leader of the Jewish Defense League's New York branch, Victor Vancier (known by his Hebrew name Chaim Ben Pesach). It defines itself as "fighting to save The United States and Israel from Islamic and Third World invasion".

JTF makes no public effort to recruit members to the organization. According to Chaim, JTF is made up of Jewish and "Righteous Gentile" Religious Zionists. But these people are not members because they are simply asked to help out. JTF doesn't have an official membership. Those who wish to support JTF are simply asked for checks, money orders, or cash donations made out to JTF. JTF uses these donations to help the political efforts of their allies in Israel. They also encourage people to send donations to an organization called The Voice of Jewish Activism (VJA) which is "tax exempt and funds the humanitarian and educational needs" of their allies in Israel. The only other known JTF members are David Ben Moshe (who co-hosts one of the JTF programs with Chaim.), Yosef Ben Meir (who used to co-host one of the JTF programs with Chaim.), and the webmaster. Occasionally Chaim has other Jews as guests on the show and sometimes he has "Righteous Gentiles" as guests on the show, including Sean Reilly, an Irish Catholic, and Craig Winn, who did episdoes on what JTF considers to be "exposing Islam".

They are Anti-Muslim — they supported Slobodan Milosevic's policies and the "heroic Serb Christians'" struggles in Bosnia and Kosovo and always refer to Islam's holy book as the "Muslim Nazi Koran" since they claim that it commands all Muslims to kill all "Non-Muslim infidels". However the most vitriolic of the JTF's epithets are directed at their Jewish critics. For example, JTF has referred to Ariel Sharon as a "Left-Wing Bolshevik dictator", and Revlon CEO Ronald Perelman is referred to as an "ugly, bald, self-hating kike cockroach".

JTF also espouses what is viewed by its opponents as a virulent form of racism, and some shows are entirely devoted to stereotypes of blacks and Hispanics, jokes about their physical features, caricatures of their manners of speech, etc. Chaim's experiences in his daily life have served as the basis for some of these racial jokes - for example, a problem with his cable television service resulted in a half-hour rant about the stupidity of blacks. JTF does like some blacks such as Alan Keyes and Emanuel McLittle. But they believe the majority of blacks are like Al Sharpton. JTF favors the relocation of non-whites which it views as not loyal to America. It wants to repatriate them to their place of origin with a basket of emigration giving them money to be permanently sent back to where they came from. JTF has also proposed this for non-loyal whites. They claim that they don't hate people based on race, but rather on "evil culture". Sometimes they joke about an "agricultural policy" (i.e., genocide followed by the use of the bodies for fertilizer). In keeping with this, JTF believes that Third World immigrants, are a threat to Western Civilization. They are against America becoming what they call a "Third World banana republic". Under the motto of "Saving America and Israel from Islamic Terrorism", JTF broadcasts two shows on New York public access.

JTF also supports right-wing Jewish dissidents in Israel such as the Hilltop Youth. JTF, with the help of their allies in Israel, leads a "righteous struggle to defeat the Bolshevik Israeli government's evil plan to give away Jewish holy land to the Arab terrorists, which is a primary goal to which Chaim Ben Pesach has dedicated his life.". JTF also believess that "the opinions expressed by JTF are refreshing and inspiring". They believe that "not only is JTF a breath of fresh air, but also that it is one of the only news sources to give an accurate and factual account of the week's events in America and Israel".

Some other Kahanists claim JTF is not a real Kahanist organization and some of them even go as far to say that the opinions expressed by JTF are "extreme". JTF is not supported by Kahane Chai or the current leaders of JDL but does have known support from Noam Federman, a former Kach member, who has a show on the Hebrew section of JTF's website. Former JDL Chairman Bill Maniaci has claimed that "Chaim Ben Pesach's claims that he was ever in JDL are false".

Some of JTF's opponents believe that "Chaim uses his television program and website to solicit funds he claims are used to finance JTF's battle to take control of the Israeli government", but they point out that "very little proof of such exists". Chaim says that "God will bless" those that donate to JTF. A visit to their website encourages you to send them donations and include JTF in your will, yet also says "We do not respond to e-mail addresses".

Since 1998, JTF has a website which updates every Wednesday morning which Chaim runs with the help of his webmaster. The website has articles among other things as well as the audio of the two weekly JTF TV shows. It also has two Hebrew sections on its website in which there are two weekly audio programs, one which is hosted by Noam Federman, the spiritual leader of the Hilltop Youth, and the other one since February, 2005, by Chaim Ben Pesach with Gil Avraham. JTF funds both Noam Federman and the Hilltop Youth, and Baruch Marzel and the Chayil Party. The format of these shows has changed in the past, with various guest hosts and periods where Chaim has hosted both programs.

According to their website (JTF.ORG), "In a JTF television program which aired in Manhattan on Sunday, September 11, 1994 - precisely seven years to the day before the horrendous Muslim Nazi attacks on the World Trade Center and The Pentagon - Chaim Ben Pesach explicitly predicted that the Islamic terrorists who bombed the Twin Towers in 1993 would return to finish their bloody work, mercilessly murdering thousands of Americans.". JTF's critics believe that this is a "coincidence". His broadcast of September 11, 1994 does mention that he expects the bombers to return, but he does not make any specific predictions. Also, nearly every JTF broadcast predicts some kind of terrorist horror. Chaim says JTF is always right well in advance. His supporters point out that he also predicted that Saddam Hussein did not have weapons of mass destruction and that the war in Iraq was just about the Bush family getting back at Saddam Hussein for not finishing the job in 1991.

During the 2004 election season, Chaim wrote articles saying that he was in direct contact with Republican officials, who sought out his advice. The articles say that they paid for limousines to take him to the airport, first-class flights to Washington, and secret meetings in hotels and Glatt Kosher restaurants where they discussed the election and begged for his support for Bush's re-election. JTF's opponents believe that the articles were just "publicity stunts".

JTF hopes to raise enough money to help Baruch Marzel's Chayil Party come to power in Israel, where they would in turn fund a JTF program on national television in the United States to inspire a Right Wing "Righteous Gentile" movement to take over the U.S. government. JTF's opponents allege that "despite their pleas for donations, there is no accountability on the amounts of money received or what the money is being spent on". They even go as far to accuse Chaim Ben Pesach of being unemployed even though he sold his personal business to become a fulltime JTF volunteer. He also gives his own money to the cause.

JTF's Seven-Point Plan

JTF also published their "Seven-Point Plan" on their website.

  1. A ferocious retaliation against all Muslim nations which have in any way aided or abetted terrorism against American citizens.
  2. The immediate destruction by the American or Israeli military of all Muslim nuclear reactors, plants and laboratories developing nuclear, chemical and/or biological weapons of mass destruction.
  3. Total energy independence for America through a crash development program funded in the defense budget as a vital national security priority.
  4. An immediate end to all U.S. foreign aid, even to a genuine friend and ally like Israel, which is harmed rather than helped by her counterproductive dependency on America's addictive welfare handouts.
  5. An immediate end to all foreign immigration into the United States, combined with the complete expulsion of America's millions of illegal aliens and the stringent removal of her legal ones at the expiration of their work or residency visas.
  6. An immediate recognition by the United States of little Israel’s G-d-given right and obligation to assert full and permanent sovereign control over all sacred Jewish Biblical lands, including Judea, Samaria, the Gaza District, the Golan Heights and eastern Jerusalem.
  7. An immediate withdrawal from the fanatically anti-American United Nations (UN) and all organizations directly or indirectly affiliated with it, and the immediate banning of all UN-related activities on American soil.

Chaim Ben Pesach

Image:Cbp.jpg
Picture of Chaim Ben Pesach from a Florida Jewish newspaper speaking in a synagogue in Florida. This picture appeared on JTF.ORG.

Chaim Ben Pesach was the former Jewish Defense League leader in New York who led efforts to free Soviet Jewry by bombing Soviet diplomatic targets in New York and by tear-gassing a Soviet ballet performance at Lincoln Center in the 1980's. He was convicted of these acts and sentenced to 5 and a half years in jail and was on parole for a while after that. Chaim said that while he was in jail, he became very thin because they wouldn't give him any kosher food until Senator Jesse Helms intervened on his behalf. His opponents believe that he made up this claim. Upon his release, he started JTF.

Chaim Ben Pesach is banned from entering Israel. In 1996, Chaim tried to immigrate to Israel but was immediately detained in Ben-Gurion International Airport upon his arrival in Israel and was placed in administrative detention in a cell in the airport. He was not allowed to speak to an attorney nor an American Embassy official despite the fact that he is an American citizen. He was subsequently returned to the US, where he resides today in the New York metropolitan area.

On a personal note, Chaim Ben Pesach is the son of an Ashkenazic Jewish father and an Egyptian Jewish mother. He is a single and was never married. Chaim also strongly believes in eating only healthy food.

External Links

Category:Jewish organizations Category:Israel and Zionism

(Kahanechaivekayam 07:11, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC))

The Jewish Task Force

There is now a new JTF article called The Jewish Task Force. I renamed the re-write page to that name. Now we have a non-biased article. I simply added the definite article. (Kahanechaivekayam 07:18, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC))

I will admit this is giant step in the right direction, but the racist part of JTF is certainly downplayed. I am willing to listen to my collection of JTF audio programs for obvious examples of racism and quote from them. All of my quotes will be referenced to date the program was released.
I find it strange how Kahanechaivekayam calls me a racist despite the fact that I have said nothing racist, but doesn't call JTF racist even though Mr. JTF, Victor, openly calls blacks baboons, niggers and other derogatory terms. He openly calls for genocide against Arabs and Blacks as a total population.
It is also strange how none of these JTF fanatics have replied either directly or indirectly to my quotes taken from the JTF programs in the last 2 weeks. Yet I am the one they call a racist! At least I'm not called a Nazi anymore... 168.209.98.35 11:21, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)


(after edit conflict)
I've made it a redirect to this article, and protected it. It's not acceptable to fork an article like that, especially to evade a page protection. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:23, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Regarding the new article -- or at least the part contained in here -- here's an example of what was supposed to be NPOV but isn't at all: JTF's opponents allege that "despite their pleas for donations, there is no accountability on the amounts of money received or what the money is being spent on". They even go as far to accuse Chaim Ben Pesach of being unemployed even though he sold his personal business to become a fulltime JTF volunteer. He also gives his own money to the cause. The last two sentences, despite all attempts, are utterly POV. I do appreciate the attempt, but the understanding of NPOV still needs to be improved. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 15:40, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I was happy with the article before it was being vandalized. It included the facts about JTF and about what their goals are and what they believe in. That's why I put it back. It didn't bother me that it had POV against them even though I support JTF. But I made the latest version even more Pro-JTF because one of the above Pro-JTF people complained. (Kahanechaivekayam 21:52, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC))

  • Please read WP:NPOV and make sure you understand it; it's the linchpin of Wikipedia philosophy. You made a version "more pro-JTF"; that's entirely inappropriate. It should bother you that the article had POV against, or for, JTF. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 00:00, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Let the African American Rewrite the Article!

Of course, the South African racist thinks the article is a "giant step in the right direction." It repeats all of the lies of the current article and even adds to them with nonsense about Bob Manici or whatever his name is. You call yourself a Kahanist and you were happy with the vicious old article? What a joke! The claims about JTF donations are lies that have been refuted repeatedly on this page but you put them in again to appease the South African. Some Kahanist! With friends like you, we don't need any enemies! Let the African American rewrite the article together with user dbiv/david who tried to start a fair rewrite a week or so ago (see above). The African American and the British gentleman whose user name is dbiv/david can settle this issue once and for all. How ironic that two Gentiles - one African American and one Englishman - are fairer and more objective than someone who calls himself a "Kahanist." I hope I could get Chaim to deal with this on his programs in both English and Hebrew - this is great material for the shows and really proves his point about the "righteous Gentiles." So far, the JTF leaders seem to think this whole thing is not very important to the overall cause because of the generational differences that I mentioned above - JTF leaders in their 40s and 50s don't read or care about wikipedia. 24.193.128.76

I think I speak for many others when I say it is very doubtful the "African American" JTF supporter really is African American. I don't know of any African American who would support a racist group who calls their own people niggers, baboons, etc. 24.193.128.76 has lied in the past (saying he wasn't near the East Coast when in fact he connects to the Internet in New York City) so in all likelyhood the "African American JTF supporter" is simply another JTF lie.
As of where the funds go, to me, that is a side issue. I am more interested in exposing the racist side of JTF which their supporters try to supress. But on the issue of funds, there is just as proof that Victor snorts the donations up his nose as there is that he is using it as he claims. 168.209.98.35 08:03, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I am black. As long as the questions are non-intrusive I will answer any inquiries to prove this. Oh, Chaim has insulted everyone who deviates from a path of righteousness. His main gripe is not with African-Americans as a whole. Just those who choose to be worthless and follow a culture or religion that is evil. I have heard him mention on one of the programs that while he was serving his prison sentence, he found dignity in a West-Indian (Jamaican) black because of his support of Zionism. I take his comments about other blacks with a grain of salt. It may be viewed as racist to assume that a black person does not follow in genuine right-wing ideologies. --24.47.31.1 16:35, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

permafrost

The way this discussion is going now, the likelihood of this page ever being unprotected is remarkably low. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 21:17, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A suggestion

I am new to this discussion, but I have a suggestion: Maybe we can ask people on both sides of this dispute (defenders of JTF, and those who want to expose it as a racist hate group) to voluntariry agree to abstain from editing the article say for a couple of weeks, and let people who do not have any agenda in relation to JTF to try to improve the article.

Some of my thoughts: words like "racist" are judgemental labels and should be removed. Instead, few citations from JTF could be insterted illustrating their views. Not the most extreme citations we can find (nobody can be fairly judged by his most extreme statements ever made) but some typical ones. "Run by convicted felon" should be removed from preface, it is enough to have information about his conviction in the body of the article. Debate whether Chaim is "unemployed" or "retired" is just silly; the fact that Chaim does not have a full-time job except running JTF seems to be undisputed, and it is enough to mention this fact. The phrase that the organization is "member-less" should go too. Instead we can say that critics of JTF say that the organization has no members except for a few organizers. Supporters of JTF answer to this that JTF has no formal membership roster but has many people supporting it.--Vlad1 01:55, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

One more thing: although the version suggested above by Kahanechaivekayam might have some imperfections, it seems to be substantially more neutral than currently protected version. If administrators find it necessary to protect this article, maybe they can take a second look what is a better version to protect? --Vlad1 02:30, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The problem is that there doesn't appear to be anyone willing to edit this article that either do not feel they are racist or are not trying to whitewash the racism. I feel that the reason outside editors are not willing to take on this article is because it deals with a Jewish group and any critical comments about it will get the same treatment I got earlier and am still getting (ie: Being called a Nazi, anti-semetic, racist, personal threats etc) 168.209.98.35 05:02, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think trying to validate that I am African-American makes for a worthless time-consuming debate. Look, the whole article needs to be re-written. It's quite a piece of work. A lot of the current content should be omitted. I'm referring to the third re-write. Former JDL chairman claims that Chaim was never in the JDL? Err...nope. That's not even a gross exaggeration, that's just a blatant lie on his part. Opponents? More like detractors.

It does not really matter if you are African American or not. I do not think you would convince many people that you are African American since ¨your¨ people are the butt of Victors insults during much of the show and called baboons and niggers. I personally feel you are just saying you are African American to try to make it look like JTF is not racist and that they have a wider support group than they do.

The current locked article is so disturbingly innacurate and biased it makes my jaw drop.

An ¨African American¨ with a dropping jaw? Oh the fun Victor could have with that one!

"However there has been no proof that the show did air on that date and by listening to the program it sounds as if there was copy-editing done to the tape when the year 1994 is mentioned."

The compressed Real Media audio file is of low quality in order to accommodate listener's who have a slow internet connection. You're not getting the best clarity. Also, many of the topics covered are relevant to that specific year and the previous year, but feel free to continue making baseless assumptions.

I have downloaded it and listened to it several times. I have also played it for several people and all agree with the conclusion that not only was it copyedited, it was copyedited poorly. Have you listened to it?

Racism? How long can you beat a dead horse?

I have no clue what you are trying to imply.

I have not insulted you. I have not threatened you. I just think you do not have a valid point.

I was not refering to you. I was refering to the previous editor who calls everything under the sun a Nazi. Look at some of his earlier posts.

If I edited an article on the Nation of Islam and claimed that it was a racist cult, of course I'd be chastised immediately. Stop looking for lame excuses and scapegoats to try and justify your biased article.

I'm no longer taking into consideration anything that the South African has to contribute to this debate. He has not done any significant research to discuss this topic.

I have not done research? I have given racist quotes up above that nobody has responded to. I have listened to over 70, at least, of the JTF program. Why do the JTF supporters continue to claim JTF is not racist and do not even bother to reply to the quotes I have given which can be verified by anyone with a sound card in a matter of minutes? I think we know why they do not reply to those quotes and rather just continue to insult me.

I will have an objective re-write finished by Thursday. --24.47.31.1 06:31, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Somehow I doubt it will be an objective article seeing how you deny JTF is racist. 168.209.98.35

South African's Dictatorial Standard of Proof

I think one of the reasons no one takes the South African seriously is because he insists that JTF is guilty until proven innocent. He condemns and maliciously accuses JTF on issue after issue with no proof and no basis for his hateful attacks.

In a free and fair society, such as the United States, everyone is innocent until proven guilty. It is the accuser - and not the accused - who has the total burden of proof in demonstrating that his accusations are factual. Only in dictatorial societies is the accused required to prove his innocence, which is usually impossible to do.

The South African simply makes things up and then demands that JTF supporters prove their innocence. On JTF donations, on the 1994 JTF show predicting another Muslim terrorist attack, on Chaim meeting with Republicans - on issue after issue, the South African makes baseless accusations and places them in the JTF article, and then if anyone dares to question his biased attacks, the South African demands that they prove that JTF is innocent.

Is this going to be the standard by which wikipedia produces articles? If so, then wikipedia would have to change its name to Pravda. Fortunately, we can see from virtually every writer here that the South African's standard is not acceptable to the vast majority of wikipedia's readers.

The South African has become the last obstacle to rewriting the article in a fair and objective manner. He will object to any article that does not accuse JTF of everything under the sun. Should the South African be permitted to singlehandedly block a resolution of this problem that everyone else desires?

I know the South African will answer this by repeating for the millionth time that no one has responded to his so-called "racist" quotes from JTF's programs that he takes out of context and deliberately misinterprets. In fact, you can see above that several writers have responded to the quotes in detail and disagree with the South African's conclusion that the quotes are racist. When the South African says no one has responded, he means no one has agreed with his distorted misinterpretations. The South African does not demand a response, he demands that everyone agree with him. He then repeats the same thing over and over and over again. There has to be some limit to how long we will take this seriously. 24.193.128.76

Let us calm down everybody. Wikipedia is not a court of law, and there should be no presumptions here - neither innocence nor guilt. It is not our task to judge JTF. It is our task to describe known facts about it. We can put relevant quotes from JFT program in the article, and let the reader decide whether they are racist or not. It is not up to us to arrive to any judgemental conclusion about JTF. The word "racist" should not be present in the article, unless attributed to particular people talking about JTF.
It is probably not very helpful to call somebody "an obstacle". We really should be discussing the article, not the editors. --Vlad1 00:51, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

unprotect?

2 weeks is a very long time for vandalism, I thought it was normally 24hrs... Sam Spade 02:29, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • It wasn't for vandalism -- there's a seemingly unresolvable revert war. I've changed the vprot to prot. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 02:47, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I am not sure what is the right decision, but long-term protection, especially when an article is in a clearly POV state, is not necessarily the best option. It is clear that the issue causes strong opinions and emotions on both sides. On the other hand it is not the only topic where strong controversial opinions exist, and many other articles, controversy notwithstanding, seem to be able to reach a reasonable state. Maybe you should give the editors another chance? --Vlad1 03:42, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

All I know is that the first sentance

"The Jewish Task Force (JTF) is a racist Kahanist member-less organization in New York"

Is rather embarassing. 13:54, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"It does not really matter if you are African American or not. I do not think you would convince many people that you are African American since ¨your¨ people are the butt of Victors insults during much of the show and called baboons and niggers. I personally feel you are just saying you are African American to try to make it look like JTF is not racist and that they have a wider support group than they do."

"My" people? I do not follow the religion of Islam nor would I ever associate myself with anyone who is a Muslim. I do not rely on Affirmative-Action. I do not speak in slang or Ebonics. On all of my job applications I have never mentioned my race. I am a law abiding citizen and I'd like to think of myself as being on the higher end of the I.Q. spectrum. I take no offense to his insults. They are not directed at myself. How do you actually know who supports JTF? You do not.

"An ¨African American¨ with a dropping jaw? Oh the fun Victor could have with that one!"

You're starting to show your true colors. Perhaps user 24.193.128.76 was right to label you a racist. How can anyone take a simple figure of speech and make racial implications out of it?

"I have downloaded it and listened to it several times. I have also played it for several people and all agree with the conclusion that not only was it copyedited, it was copyedited poorly. Have you listened to it?"

Yes, I have listened to it and on a high-end speaker system. The clarity is the same as other recent audio broadcasts. I guess they "copy-edit" their recent programs as well.

"I have not done research? I have given racist quotes up above that nobody has responded to. I have listened to over 70, at least, of the JTF program. Why do the JTF supporters continue to claim JTF is not racist and do not even bother to reply to the quotes I have given which can be verified by anyone with a sound card in a matter of minutes? I think we know why they do not reply to those quotes and rather just continue to insult me."

... you teach history of people who are hundreds of millions of them in Africa and not one has has ever invented one thing - not one thing since the beginning of time - except for AIDS, and West Nile virus and destroying cities and destorying everything they touch and basically smelly.

Whoa, you've really exposed JTF for being complete racists. Despite, the fact that Africans really did not invent anything of significance and he insulted a segment of the Black population. Not to mention that this comment may have been taken out of context.

Oh, and a year and a couple of months does not constitute for sound research. I have been listening to the program for several years, I frequently visit their website, I actually live in the state of New York and for that matter I am a U.S. citizen.

"Somehow I doubt it will be an objective article seeing how you deny JTF is racist."

I will address the alleged "racism", but continue to doubt. --24.47.31.1 20:58, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)


User_talk:Kahanechaivekayam

I posted my own version of the article at User_talk:Kahanechaivekayam. (Kahanechaivekayam 06:47, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC))

Other Kahanists on Chaim

Most of the other Kahanists I have talked to on http://www.kahane.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi and http://www.revava.org/forum/ don't like Chaim or JTF and say Chaim's concern with helping America is not true Kahanism. They say Kahanists should only be concerned about Israel because America is not our country. Some of the people on those sites are JTF fans however. I am also a JTF fan. (Kahanechaivekayam 06:52, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC))

Thanks, Kahanechaivekayam. I think that your version is much better than the official version, and I support replacing the official version with your version when the powers to be would deem fit to unprotect the article. By the way I am not a JTF fan. To the critics of JTF: read for example Wikipedia article on Hitler. It does not directly attack him, and does not even call him a racist, although very few people would dispute that he was a racist. Why do you want to make an article about JTF more attacking than an article on Hitler? By making non-objective articles we hurt the reputation of Wikipedia, not JTF. --Vlad1 10:48, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)


An Objective Re-write

The revision can be found at Jewish Task Force/temp. --24.47.31.1 03:31, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This Rewrite is Impartial and Professional

I think this is a good version, even containing more educational information than the one I did. I wish all Wikipedia articles about Right Wing Jews and Israel could be written in such an objective manner. For a start, no one should call parts of Israel "occupied Arab lands" in any articles. And the article on Rabbi Meir Kahane should also not accuse him of being racist when all he wanted to do was remove Arabs from Israel who are sworn enemies of Israel. (Kahanechaivekayam 04:39, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC))

The Rewrite is Objective and Acceptable

Finally, we have an impartial and professional rewrite that includes both sides. The views of both JTF's critics and admirers are clearly detailed.

The long and highly controversial quote from JTF will be regarded by many as an example of why they find JTF's views objectionable, but the quote is not taken out of context and neither side can reasonably complain about it.

JTF's critics can certainly be pleased that Chaim's statements are being called "inflammatory" and that the ridicule of certain blacks and others is being described in detail. However, at least both sides are presented.

The article is well-researched and adds new and relevant facts. It is written in a professional manner that one would expect from an objective journalistic piece.

The author's personal views do not intrude into the article. Which is what we would expect from an fair writer.

A wikipedia reader will clearly see that JTF is controversial, that it has been charged with racism and that even Chaim's history of going to prison for Soviet Jews is something many would find problematic. But at least all of these negatives are presented with some balance and without personal bias.

I think both sides should thank the author for offering us a well-written article that gives us a way out of the current problem. The article is acceptable and meets all of wikipedia's stated standards. 24.193.128.76


The facts which according to JTF's critics make JTF look bad, can be viewed as compliments by JTF supporters because JTF supporters support Chaim's actions which he went to jail for and they support the quotes. Chaim made the quotes and people can see in them whatever they want. 68.80.133.163 05:40, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) (kahanechaivekayam)

Latest rewrite is simply another whitewash attempt

This latest rewrite is another attempt to make Wikipedia a brochure for JTF. It says virtually nothing in regards to their obvious racism and what little that is said is highly POV, even claiming that JTF is a victim to harsh criticism by detractors who undermine the organization by claiming that it is racist. Odd how the ¨objective and acceptable¨ article quotes in detail Victor´s racism denial but does not have a single quote supporting the claims by the ¨detractors who undermine the organization¨ who point out obviously racist comments.

It also claims as if for fact that their 9-11 ¨prediction¨ is authentic. Any non-JTF supporter who listens to the said ¨prediction¨ can easily spot the copyediting when the word 1994 is mentioned. The article also does not dispute Victor´s false claim that he was denied kosher food and become very thin (Holocaust visuals, anyone??) while in prison until he was rescued by Senetor Helms.

Some of the JTF supporters here claim that because Victor said he is not racist that proves he is not racist. That is not the case as there is ample amount of quotes available proving the opposite. Victor also says he is a civil rights leader and a moderate. Does that make those claims true?

The article also seems to take Victor´s words as fact when he claims that the monies sent in is truely used for JTF´s stated goals. There is just as much proof that victor snorts the donations up his nose as there is that he does what he says he does with it. 168.209.98.35

Page protection

I've seen little yet that persuades me that the page can be unprotected. If editors would read and try to understand Wikipedia:Neutral point of view it would help. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:04, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Comment [personal attack removed]

We all knew in advance that the South African [...] would object to any article that does not accuse Chaim of causing the bubonic plague, the Asian tsunami and global warming, not to mention both world wars. Like a true believer in totalitarian ideology, he again demands that people prove JTF's innocence on a whole host of absurd accusations that he has simply made up without offering a shred of evidence. If we need his approval for a rewrite, nothing will ever be accomplished.

Unfortunately, Mel Etitis has again demonstrated his bias. He wants to keep an article frozen in place that everyone admits is biased. As one of the editors, Vlad1, stated above, the wikipedia article on JTF is harsher than the wikipedia article on Adolf Hitler. Not to mention the glowing wikipedia article on the PLO terrorist mass murderers who butchered over 300,000 Lebanese Christians, thousands of Jews and hundreds of Americans.

The obvious bias and unfairness here has actually generated a great deal of interest in JTF and as you can see from the reactions on this page, the vast majority of readers recognize that JTF is being treated unjustly. Now people can read for themselves the new rewrite and see how fair it is, and they can compare it to the hatemongering hatchet job that is being "protected." Let every reader judge for themselves who is being fair and who is not. I really believe that this whole process is good for JTF because honest people can see through the farce and the charade that is taking place here. 24.193.128.76

I can only repeat: read Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, though I should add Wikipedia:No personal attacks. It's not a question of who's right and who's wrong, but a question of how the editing should take place. Both sides were behaving badly, refusing to listen to each other, and substituting playground-bully tactics for any real attempt to collaborate and reach consensus. If you don't like the current form of the article, change your behaviour, and it will be unprotected; then you can edit it. The same goes for everyone involved. Personally, I think that the article as it stands is a mess, not only with regard to presentation, but with regard to content. As those editing it showed themselves not to be trusted with it, however, it's frozen in this state. Instead of flailing around blaming everyone else, try a little reflection. If it's so important to you that it be improved, isn't it important enough to change your attitude to editing? Dropping the personal abuse of those who disagree with you would be a useful start. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:36, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What this article needs is more people editing it who are outside the rather narrow span of the sociopolitical spectrum represented by the present internecine squabble between JTF supporters and anti-JTF Kahanists. I might try doing some edits myself if the article ever gets unprotected. *Dan* 16:24, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

Response

It is my opinion that by ignoring the obviously fair and impartial rewrite, you are demonstrating a bias. In the past, as seen above, you called statements by editors defending JTF "unpleasant" and "racist." Those are not personal attacks? Most of the readers, as evidenced by the comments on this page, strongly disagree with you. The rewrite is OVERLY fair to JTF critics, and to reject it out of hand is so obviously unjust that I think it proves my point. What is there to edit in the rewrite unless you want to insert one-sided attacks on JTF? Let the readers on this page judge for themselves. I think most will agree that the rewrite is more than fair and that there is no excuse for simply dismissing it. I admit that I am not particularly disturbed by this controversy because I believe that this whole situation actually makes JTF look quite good in comparison to the organization's critics. 24.193.128.76

  • Do you truly believe Chaim Ben Pesach's considerably inflammatory rhetoric has captivated his audience and loyal supporters, but at the same time it has also rendered him a victim to harsh criticism by detractors who undermine the organization by claiming that it is racist represents a neutral point of view? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 17:37, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I changed the word "victim" to open. Is there anything else that you view as POV? --24.47.31.1 22:36, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • "undermine", "captivated", just in that one sentence. I strongly suggest you put your work in progress on a temporary page; it's too big for the talk page. Jewish Task Force/temp would be a good place for it. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 23:43, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)


I do not think that suggested rewrites are completely NPOV (or perfect in any other sense). But I think they are better than the currently frozen article. Maybe as a relatively new person on Wikidedia I should not criticize experienced admins, but I cannot help but having doubts that the article protection is really useful at this point in time.

With the article protected, everybody put their suggested rewrites in different places - some are on personal talk pages, some inserted on this talk page. It is not easy to make diff between versions, it is not clear what version to edit if I want to improve something. It is clear that this article needs attention, but protection discourages potential editors from trying to improve it.

A suggestion to admins involved in this article: if you are sure that the article needs to be protected, at least help us organize the editing process. Your suggestion about a temp page is definitely a good one (barring untrotecting the article). Still, I sort of have an impression that admins look at us rank-and-file editors from the heights of their adminship, and just remark from time to time "no, this bunch of editors is not good enough to have the article unlocked". This is not very helpful.

Am I mistaken in suggesting that such a long article protection is rather rare, and in a sense goes against Wikipedia spirit? Should we ask some other admins to take a fresh look at this situation maybe? Sorry for my long rant, no personal attacks intended. --Vlad1 00:13, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • You're right that it's been a long time to protect an article -- very un-Wiki. If some other admin were to come along and unprotect, I'd not complain -- I'd sit back and watch and see if things had settled down. The reason it was locked was because no spirit of compromise (or of an understanding of NPOV) was shown -- and edit wars are just as bad for Wikipedia as locking down articles. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 00:25, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Mm... To whom should we show the spirit of compromise? Must we pass an exam on our understanding of NPOV? Are admins the gatekeepers who do not admit the editors until said editors proved to their satisfaction good spirit and excellent understanding? Are you sure that all potential editors here have no spirit and no understanding, or you think so only about some of us, but deem this to be the sufficent grounds to keep all of us from editing the article?
jpgordon, I do not want to jump to conclusions as one of the previous editors who accused you of a bias. But it struck me as peculiar that you complained several times on this page about pro-JTF bias (admittedly correctly), but are perfectly happy to leave the article frozen for a long time with an arguably stronger anti-JTF bias.
About you sitting back and watch - you would be able to do so if the article was unprotected. But if you took in on yourself to protect the article (which disrupts normal editing process), in my mind you took upon yourself some responsibility for this article. You can no longer sit back and relax, you should actively try to broker the consensus, or try to fix whatever else is wrong. Or if you cannot, you should ask another admin for a help (yes, ask yourself, not wait for somebody to come along). Or you can wash your hands from this article - but only after unprotecting it. Just my opinion of course ... --Vlad1 02:12, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • I did not protect the article. Had I done so, I think you'd be correct to ask that of me. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 05:14, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
My apologies. My last paragraph should have been addressed to Mel Etitis. (Although, as a side note, by actively defending the decision to protect, you also took at least a part of responsibility for the article on yourself).--Vlad1 10:57, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Can you imagine if a Right Wing Jew would go and change the article on The PLO? Why can Anti-JTF people vandalize JTF articles but we can't write that The PLO is a terrorist organizaiton? As with the politically correct media sources such as CNN, "objective" and "politically correct" means to be against Israel. (68.80.133.163 02:25, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)) (kahanechaivekayam)

Kahanist Criticism

If you have Left-Wing criticism of JTF, why not include Kahanist criticism of JTF? There are Kahanists who accuse JTF of not being Kahanist and being too concerned about America. Those Kahanists say Jews shouldn't care about America and that it isn't really supposed to be for Righteous Gentiles as JTF says. They also point out that Noahides and not Christians, are real Righteous Gentiles according to Jewish Law. 68.80.133.163 02:44, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC) (kahanechaivekayam)

I'm sick and tired

Of dealing with the South African. He has nothing pertinent to add to the debate. Other than regurgitating disputed arguments which have already been addressed.

You are the only one here who has claimed that there was copy-editing done to the 9/11/94 broadcast. The ONLY one. Do you have a forensic laboratory in your home?

I've addressed the racist issue ad nauseam, but yet you still feel that that is not enough. Anyone with basic reading comprehension can make up their own mind with the information provided.

As far as the donations go, if it was a "scam", specifically for Chaim's personal gain, he would have been called out for it years ago. Surely the ADL would have been all over this, but yet somehow it is a "scam". Riight.

I only seek to write a fair and unbiased article on JTF. I'm not here to appease some liberal leftist with a personal vendetta against JTF.

It's a shame and an embarrassment to Wikipedia that you are even allowed to comment on this article, let alone edit it in the first place. --24.47.31.1 04:58, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It seems you and other JTF supporters have had virtually nothing to add to wikipedia until the JTF article was locked. As soon as the JTF article was locked all sorts of new people have suddenly swarmed wikipedia to attack me for simply stating the truth. Where were you all before the JTF article was locked? How were you notified it was locked in a version you didn't agree with? And, why is it that most of you share the common problem of not being able to sign your comments properly (btw, you do it by typing: ~~~~)?
It is very clear that the group of you are here as a result of your little "network" of JTF supporters. First we have the guy who claims not to be Jewish and far from the East Coast, yet his IP says he is using a cable modem in New York City. He was quickly proven to be a liar and he has since dropped those claims. Now we have an "African American" JTF fan join in, with virtually no wikipedia edit's previously, and defend JTF. Give it another week and I'll bet we will have a Neo-Nazi and Mexican JTF supporter in here too. 168.209.98.35 05:46, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A search for "Jewish Task Force" in Google produces around 850+ results. Many link to discussion forums and blogs and some are totally not even related. Wikipedia being an information resource is one of the few places on the internet (besides JTF.org) where a person can find out about JTF. Just because I have not edited many articles previously on Wikipedia does not mean that I do not peruse it. There were previous editions which I found acceptable by Wikipedia standards.

Yes, you will find mention of it on chat forums. Victor himself asks people to do just that! In fact it only takes a few determined people to produce all of those links.

You keep placing quotation marks around the term African-American. Hmm...now why would I have an account with a website like *BlackPlanet.com? It's the African-American equivalent to something like MySpace or Friendster, with people equally as stupid who have accounts over there. Sheesh...It's only a matter of time before you start using pejorative terms like "Uncle Tom" now that you are aware that I'm Black.

Victor calls ¨your¨ people Niggers and baboons. That is why it is hard to believe that you are African American. And, no, he does not just insult certain blacks. Look at his quotes above, he paints all Africans with the same hateful brush. (By the way that link you posted returns: This Member´s page no longer exists. Not that it would prove anything anyway.

Now, I'm politely asking you to refrain from participating in this debate based on your hysteric delusional mindset. --24.47.31.1 07:59, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You consider me delusional because I dare state that JTF is racist? You do not think the quotes above (which are just a few of the recent ones) are not racism? You do not think that genocide against blacks and arabs is racist? You should stop participating in this because you are here in a mission to glorify JTF.
If JTF is not racist then war is peace and slavery is freedom.[User:168.209.98.35|168.209.98.35]]
It is difficult to determine whether JTF is "racist" or not even if we were allowed to do original research here (which we are not). Different people may have different understanding of this word. For example, if I engage in a bona-fide scientific research trying to determine whether there is a correlation between race and reasoning abilities, would this make me a racist? Some would say yes, some would say no. The term "racist" is poorly defined. In addition, it carries strongly negative judgemental connotations. These days the term "racist" usually used when the goal is to inflate emotions, not to describe facts. As such, I think it is inappropriate to describe anybody as "racist" in Wikipedia, stating it as a fact. As I mentioned above, Wikipedia does not make this claim about Hitler, and I think it should not make this claim about JTF either.--Vlad1 11:15, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I am willing to have the word racist removed from the article, but I do want the article to include descriptions and quotes that may lead people to conclude they are racist. I have just had a look at other racist organization articles, like Aryan Nations, and they do not use the word racist to describe them. Keep in mind that before I started editing the article 24.193.128.76 was calling JTF a civil rights organization(!).
Let us redo the article similiar to the other hate groups (World Church of The Creator, White Aryan Resistance, Christian Identity Movement, National Socialist Movement, Aryan Nations, etc) since they have the same views JTF does, but also lops anti-semitism on top of it all. User:168.209.98.35:168.209.98.35

Oh, thank you for the enlightenment.

That link works fine on my end. Does anyone else other than the South African have trouble accessing it?

Anyway, it appears that someone is a tad bit overly sensitive to racial issues and fails to differentiate between humor and reality.

Honestly, I'd be more concerned about Louis Farrakhan and his filthy group of followers. He makes a lot of absurdly racist comments and is taken quite seriously, but yet he's only "controversial" and anti-Semitic. Not racist though. Nooooo! No way. Him? Nope.

I presume that you are the sole arbiter here at Wikipedia of who is racist and who is not. I'm done debating with you. This is not healthy or productive on my part. --24.47.31.1

Humor? Yeah, I'm sure all blacks think it's funny when Victor says "you give your money and all your money goes to baboons. Instead of helping the Jewish homeland ... you help these Jew hating baboons .. and what you do in the colleges is teach African history and you have African history professors ... you teach history of people who are hundreds of millions of them in Africa and not one has has ever invented one thing - not one thing since the beginning of time - except for AIDS, and West Nile virus and destroying cities and destorying everything they touch and basically smelly."
And for not debating with me, that is fine. Anyone who doesn't believe the quote I just gave is racism certainly can't be reasoned with in any case. 168.209.98.35 15:37, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • This is the seventh time you've posted this. Repetition is not argument. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 16:01, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
      • Seventh time? I guess not only do I lack a sense of humor but I also can't count. What do you expect? I'm an anti-semetic Nazi anti-jtf racist apartheid criminal (or so I'm told) 168.209.98.35 16:07, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

More humor for the "African American" JTF supporter

Since our "African American" here thinks that all of the racist tirades against blacks are humorous, here are more quotes that will surely have him rolling on the floor laughing.

This can be found at http://web.archive.org/web/20011205064001/jtf.org/pfa/jtf.supports.reparations.htm

JTF believes that there should indeed be racial reparations but that it should be the other way around: blacks should pay reparations to whites.

How many once beautiful neighborhoods have been destroyed when blacks moved in? How many once bustling cities have been reduced to rubble? How many once promising suburban and rural communities have been infected by "affirmative action" gangrene? How many once lofty social programs designed only to help the blind, the deaf, the crippled and the other truly needy have been transformed into parasitic horror shows?

Unlike the black Jew-haters themselves, who hate an entire race because of what a small group of people within that race did to them 150 years ago, JTF only hates blacks who have proven themselves to be white-haters, America-haters, Jew-haters and Israel-haters.

The fact that 94% of black America voted for the ultimate example of black Nazi evil Jesse Jackson, in the 1988 Presidential election, means that we are required to stand against that 94%. Not because they are black, but because they are Nazis.

Every February, we now have Black "History" Month. No other people in the United States receive such recognition. Prior to white colonists coming to black Africa, the blacks had never established a single school, any written language, any mechanical or technical invention or anything else of value. Other than putting plates in their mouths, wiping themselves with leaves, picking insects out of their hair and eating them and living in huts held together by human excrement -- other than these great "accomplishments," blacks never achieved or invented anything. Yet we are now told that they have some sort of celebrated "history."

Pretty funny, eh 24.47.31.1?? 94% of America's African Americans are Nazis according to Victor.

Is this racism or is this humor and I just lack a sense of humor? 168.209.98.35 15:49, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • Do we really need to decide whether JTF is racist or not? You already agreed above not to describe them in this way in the article if we include some citations from JTF web site demostrating their attitude toward other races. I think this is reasonable. Let us just try to pick "typical" citations, not the most extreme or inflammatory ones, and let us try to cover their veiws fully. JTF often use words that are normally considered derogatory. They use the word "Nazi" pretty liberally - toward many different people and organizations. It is not fair just to say (or imply) that they are unti-black, because they are anti- almost everybody. Members of their own race do not fare any better in their articles than members of other races, they often refer to Jews as "kikes". Our goal is (or at least should be) to describe them fully and fairly, let us try to do it.--Vlad1 22:55, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Oh, so we should just ignore all of the extreme statements they make? We should pretend that they didn't say they are against 94% of the African Americans? You think it is fair to ignore those statements? Sorry, but I don't. 168.209.98.35 23:50, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Not ignore, but put it in context, the context being that they may be against 94% of any race including their own. I do not object against inclusion of a relevant piece of this quote, I just think that we should have a representative set of quotes, showing all sides of their position. If we cherry-pick their anti-black quotations only, this may help to demostrate your point of view that they are racist, but it would not comply with NPOV policy, and the reader will be left with a biased impression about JTF --Vlad1 00:11, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

http://www.masada2000.org/JTF-Audios.html

This site has archives of JTF shows.

http://www.masada2000.org/JTF-Audios.html

That website is also a website of a fan of JTF. We have JTF fans in here and look at the POV nonsense we get? It also has a lot of racist remarks such as:

The more dead Arab children, the better it looks. Without their oil, the Arabs would have nothing but sand! Arab women make camels look attractive! The more dead Arab children, the better it looks

Someone said "If JTF is not racist then war is peace and slavery is freedom.". Well actually that is paritally true. In the Orwellian World of Israeli poltiics, "peace" is war. Just look at Oslo. The Oslo War is even named after it. 68.80.133.163 04:41, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Someone said "Pretty funny, eh 24.47.31.1?? 94% of America's African Americans are Nazis according to Victor. Is this racism or is this humor and I just lack a sense of humor?". It's nnot meant to be funny. It's very serious. That is not racism. It's facts. People who vote for evil people are evil. Jesse Jackson bragged about how he used to work in a restaurant and said "I used to spit in white people's food.". He and Al Sharpton are racists. They have made comments like "Israel is a poisonous weed.", "Greeks are homos.", "New York is 'Hymie Town'.", etc.... 68.80.133.163 04:41, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying your position. You have just confirmed your belief that 94% of African Americans are evil, nazis, racist and your declared enemy.

And killing Arabs is not racist if Arabs believe in destroying Israel and killing all "Non-Muslim infidels". 68.80.133.163 04:41, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with race, it is about religion and an entirely different topic all together. I do belive with JTF (aka: Victor, aka: Chaim) when he says that Islam is a violent religion and the Koran is an evil book, I don't agree with him painting all Muslims with the same brush. I also don't agree that Israel is only a victim in the matter.

And why say "America's African-Americans"? Why not America's blacks? That is overly politically correct. Is black not politically correct that now you have to say American twice just not to say black? 68.80.133.163 04:41, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I usually just refer to them as African Americans. I don't think they should be called America's blacks for the same reason I don't think Mexicans should be called America's browns or the Asians called America's yellows.
Here in South Africa we have the problem when trying to figure out how to address black South Africans. Many of us simply call them Africans, but then some whites then accuse us of implying that they are not African even though they were born here. Calling them "African South Africans" sounds silly. Many blacks have a problem with the word black because "black" is often used in such negative ways such as "black sheep", "black market", etc. And the word "native" is also out of the question because it's considered a slur.
With JTF all of these PC attempts are thrown out of the window and blacks are simply called baboons, niggers, schwartz, monkeys, animals, etc. All in the name of humor, it is claimed. 168.209.98.35 08:15, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Same Old Arguments With South African

This entire commentary page is dominated by endless and repetitious arguments between the South African and everyone else. Arguing with the South African is fruitless. He keeps repeating the same points over and over again no matter which editor he is responding to.

Meanwhile, Mel has decided to impose his personal views on everyone else by keeping the worst and most biased of all the articles frozen in place for weeks. Almost all writers here have made it clear that they strongly disagree with this arbitrary decision. But apparently Mel's views supersede everyone else's.

This situation does not at all reflect badly on JTF, which if anything, looks like a model of moderation and tolerance when compared to the tactics employed by the South African and Mel, who feel they have the right to veto and censor what readers are permitted to see. Even though everyone agrees that the current article blatantly violates wikipedia's supposed rules on objectivity, the rules have been completely ignored for several weeks.

Let this be a lesson to all fair-minded people: wikipedia has "rules" which mean nothing, and wikipedia uses a double standard against Jews and conservative Gentiles.

But an even more important lesson is that this is why JTF is so needed. If people had to depend on "politically correct" groups like wikipedia for their information, the truth would never be told. The South African writes that he fears turning the article into a "brochure" for JTF. Little does he realize that he and Mel have already done so. 24.193.128.76

As long as would-be editors of this article show themselves unable to write any comment without larding it woth sub-student-union attacks on others, the page is likely to remain protected. If you want to see it unprotected, demonstrate your willingness to collaborate, and to treat your fellow editors with civility. What is the point of my unprotecting the article and then seeing it become the venue for another edit war? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 28 June 2005 15:21 (UTC)

JTF, a racist or civil rights organization?

I do admit that using the word "racist" is POV and should not be in the article in such a definitive manner. However, it must also be said that where the word "racist" is now used, 24.193.128.76 was using the term civil rights group!!! Both are POV, but ask your self which you honestly think is closer to the truth - racist or civil rights group?

And I keep bringing up the same points because the points are never directly addressed. All I get from 24.193.128 is the same personal attacks and rhetoric. He claims his views are "proven" yet offers no proof whatsoever. And this "consensus" 24.193.128.76 claims seems to have arrived here out of nowhere. The fact that we have an "African American" JTF supporter should be enough to doubt that all of these JTF fans are who they say they are. I suspect they were all sent here with different stories in order to create a false "consensus" that JTF should go back to being called a civil rights organization.

Mel, expecting a resolution here with the existing editors is like expecting Mr Tan to change his ways. It isn't going to happen. I have put in a RfC and everything else I can think of to have this resolved in a NPOV way, but nobody has come forward to assist. 168.209.98.35 28 June 2005 16:49 (UTC)

Here We Go Again

Again, an argument with the South African over the same thing.

The description of JTF as a civil rights organization was only placed in the article in response to your vandalizing the article by calling JTF "racist" and "white supremacist". You later conceded that you do not believe that JTF is "white supremacist" but placed the allegation in the article anyway. And now even you admit that the term "racist" does not belong there either, but it has been enshrined on the frozen page by Mel's decision.

You claim that all of the editors above are part of a JTF conspiracy? I wonder if Mel will criticize you now for being so uncivil as to in effect state that the many editors above are all liars and con artists.

A fair rewrite was done by the African American. At the very least, his article is much fairer than the current article that remains frozen.

If the only way to proceed is to get the approval of the South African and Mel, there is no way anything will change here. If this is what you want, then let everyone see this and make their own judgement. I have no problem with that because as I stated earlier this makes JTF look very good indeed and the controversy draws a lot of attention to JTF. If the status quo continues, large numbers of new people will see this controversy and will go to the JTF web site and draw their own conclusions on what they think of JTF. I hate to disappoint the South African, but when attention is drawn to JTF and people go to the web site, JTF automatically gains new supporters because large numbers of Americans agree with JTF's message. Most Americans are against foreign immigration, foreign aid, "affirmative action", appeasing Islamic terrorism and the other issues which JTF deals with. Just look up the national polls and see if JTF's positions are popular or not.

The best thing for an activist group like JTF is to be given attention and to be at the center of controversy and debate. So the JTF-haters here are actually doing JTF a favor. 24.193.128.76

Glad I could help. Seeing how I am helping Victor fleece his supporters from their money by attracting positive attention to his organization, how about giving me a cut of the spoils? 168.209.98.35 28 June 2005 18:44 (UTC)


The "spoils" are used to fund right-wing activist groups in Israel. Find someone online who is fluent in both Hebrew and English and let that person translate the Hebrew broadcasts for you. I think that Chaim is legendary and a hero not only for the Jewish people, but for all of us. Dare I go against what is considered to be popular consensus by my own people and have one prejudiced person questioning the validity of whether I'm Black or not. I wonder what you would think of Michelle Malkin? Also, interesting to note that the quote you used to justify that JTF is a "racist" organization is the same one used in my re-write, which you claimed was another "whitewash" attempt. --24.47.31.1 29 June 2005 07:29 (UTC)
I was just doing a google search on Jewish Task Force when I was shocked to see the horrific hatchet-job this wikipedia.org article is on them. This article makes JTF look like a bunch of racist crooks when they are in fact a liberation movement aimed to help save America and Israel. I am a Hispanic American, having been born in the USA, and I can tell you first hand that most fellow Hispanic Americans feel the same way as JTF does on Immigration. I have been a JTF supporter for 6 years and I have never heard of this racism accusation before. It is certainly not the JTF I know and support.
It seems obvious to the casual reading that the South African is the racist here and is clearly anti-semetic. The racist South African and Mel clearly side with Islamic terrorists who wish to destroy America and they are doing all they can to thwart JTFs heroic efforts to save America and to save Israel.

Yes, yes, of course — this article will lead directly to a terrorist attack on the U.S., I can see that clearly. Why is that this sort of brilliant reasoning only comes from anonymous posters to articles on extreme right-wing topics? In this case, of course, we have someone who has first-hand knowledge of the views of "most Hispanic-Americans"... is that omniscience or just omnipresence? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 29 June 2005 12:14 (UTC)

I am a bit skeptical about the recent poster, but you never know. I checked the IP address and it indicates the person is from Florida. I also checked the IP address of the person who was allegedly at a Queens Library. Okay, somebody please explain to me why the location is in Brooklyn? I'm totally stumped about everything. This recent post could be a hoax planned by the South African or this could be genuine. I really do not know. Oh, and "Mel" I personally think that you're incompetent. --24.47.31.1 29 June 2005 21:05 (UTC)

We seem to be doing a lot of investigating activities trying to deduce who each poster is, where he is living and to what race he belongs. Is this really relevant? Whether previous post is legitimate or not really have no bearing on the topic we are discussing. I am sure that for any political view you can find a person from any race supporting this political view, and this does not prove anything. A post saying "I belong to such-and-such race, and I support (or alternatively hate) JTF", contains very little relevant information.
Mel, I have a question for you. jpgordon said (or at least agreed) that if he had locked the article, he would have felt some responsibility for it, and would have actively tried to broker an agreement between prospective editors, and do whatever else is needed to bring it back on track. Do you agree with this position ? --Vlad1 30 June 2005 02:58 (UTC)
Different cases demand different approaches; I've done it both ways in the past. In this case, there's so much antagonism and unpleasantness, that I didn't see what I could do beyond protecting the article and explaining what needs doing. As you'll have seen, there's little sign of a lessening of intransigence or hostility, and neither seems to be amenable to rational discussion. Rational discussion is all I have to offer, though. Other editors have (probably wisely) chosen to steer clear, but there's nothing to stop someone else trying to resolve the issues. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 30 June 2005 11:48 (UTC)
Mel, it sounds as if you are suggesting that it would be wise for rational editors to stay clear of this article. But in this case it would be forever frozen in the current state (which you would probably agree is not very good).
People are rarely so irrational that they cannot be reasoned with, although I agree that with strong opinions on both sides it is difficult to reach the compromise. But maybe not impossible. Why for example do you not set up a temporary version of the article that everybody can edit, and advice everybody to try to improve this version? (I understand that everybody could have done it, but I think it would be better if it was coming from an admin).--Vlad1 30 June 2005 13:39 (UTC)

Good idea. A copy of this article can now be found at User:Mel Etitis/JTF. Come one, come all. If it reaches a point at which there's consensus, I'll lift protection and replace the current article with the consensus one. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 30 June 2005 21:59 (UTC)

      • Jewish Task Force/temp has been there for a week or so. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 30 June 2005 20:02 (UTC)

Personal attack by 24.193.128.76 (talk • contribs) removed. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 30 June 2005 15:53 (UTC)

Another personal attack by the same editor removed. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 30 June 2005 19:59 (UTC)

The fact that commenters here continually refer to the race, religion, nationality, and place of residence of themselves and one another is a bad sign for anybody who has any hope or wish for this discussion to be carried out in a more objective, dispassionate, impartial way that doesn't relate to the personal circumstances of the people commenting. *Dan* June 30, 2005 19:36 (UTC)
Such a pathetic excuse and a very predictable response offered by the utterly incompetent "Mel Etitis". Here is something rational which should be taken into consideration; I think that the South African should be excluded from editing the article and engaging in this current debate. That individual is really the main cause of all of the hostility here. He is highly contradictory, delusional, and obviously is lacking some rudimentary reading comprehension skills. Even people who are apathetic to the JTF organization have acknowledged that the South African is clearly biased. He claims that he keeps bringing up the same questions over and over again because they were never addressed, and that no proof was provided. People have dedicated their precious time to this individual by providing him with very detailed responses. You would think that with all of the free time that he has he would at least make an effort to do some actual resarch.
And what were those ¨detailed responses¨? Yet again you claim that you have proven your case and yet you have not even attempted to do anything but launch personal attacks. As for your personal attacks, how is it that you claim I am conradictory, delusional and lackign of reading comprehension?
If by ¨contradictory¨ you mean that I have been willing to reword some of what I have written, that is actually called ¨compromise¨. I know that you see another persons compromise as a sign of weakness and use any such compromise I make to negate all of the other stuff I have said. So far you have shown ZERO compromise. It is either your way or no way.
Traditional saying: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."
You are not leading any horse to water. You are leading them to a dry sand dune and claiming the sand dune is water.
As far as censorship goes I completely agree with the views expressed by the person who was unjustifiably censored.
Of course you would agree. You are most likely the same person.
I think bringing up my race is relevant because the overly-sensitive South African is trying his hardest to shove his biased views down our throats. I've had enough of him. Okay, I feel sympathetic that he was once part of a caste system and denied equal rights that the White minority population had. I am capable of understanding the impact that Apartheid may have had on this individual. I regret though that he is incapable of understanding the issues that American's face. Chaim Ben Pesach's main plight is with helping the Jews and liberating Israel, but he's such a compassionate human being that he cares about the problems facing America too. The South African is busy screaming racism over comments made on a public access television program where freedom of speech is supposed to be uninhibited. It's just something that he'll never grasp because he does not understand the problems faced here in America. He should be excluded from any involvement with this article.
Your sympathy is misplaced. And, yes, you are protected by free speech as are all of the other racists in America. You wish to exclude me from involvement because I, unlike most people, can not be intimidated. Call me all the names under the sun, I do not care. But I can not sit by why you try to call JTF a ¨civil rights organization¨. 168.209.98.35
Wikipedia is already notorious for these "edit-wars" and it will lose much of its integrity if it continues to operate in such a manner. The objective rewrite: Jewish Task Force/temp --24.47.31.1 1 July 2005 00:18 (UTC)
If the above is intended to be in response to the message immediately above it, I'll note that that was from me, not Mel Eltis. *Dan* July 1, 2005 00:31 (UTC)
Very good that there is an editable rewrite now. Maybe it is not completely objective as of yet, but we can try to make it so. I just edited a little bit a few first paragraphs. One suggestion - let us try to remember NPOV policy, and do not make such edits that people on other side of the dispute would want to immediately revert. In order to get the administrators to unlock the main articles we must demonstrate that we can avoid revert wars.--Vlad1 1 July 2005 00:58 (UTC)
Mel and jpgordon, can you please decide among yourselves which version (Jewish Task Force/temp or User:Mel Etitis/JTF) we should consider as an "official" attempt to rewrite the article, so that we all work on the same version? (I would probably favor the first variant - the name is more logical and neutral. Taking into account that Mel does not enjoy unanimous support from all editors, it is probably better if his name would not be in the article's path :-) --Vlad1 1 July 2005 01:05 (UTC)

There was some discussion recently (scattered across Talk pages, though a lot of it can probably be found in SlimVirgin's archives) about this, and as I remember, the preference was for temporary pages to be housed in User name space rather than article space. If anyone wants' as a first move, to replace the version at User:Mel Etitis/JTF with the version at Jewish Task Force/temp, then go ahead, and I'll delete the later. As for unanimous support... what does that have to do with it? This isn't a popularity context, nor would any admin expect unanimous support after having stepped between two edit-warring and abusive sides. Let's concentrate on the article, and try for a little while to leave personalities out of it. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 1 July 2005 10:36 (UTC)

ALL personal attacks will be deleted

This discussion is difficult enough without the personal attacks. I will simply erase any new postings here containing any personal attacks whatsoever -- regardless of what other content is in the edit containing the personal attack. I will construe the phrase "personal attack" quite loosely; anything that even remotely borders on an ad hominem argument will be removed. Anyone who doesn't like this is welcome to complain about it in the appropriate place -- not here. The purpose of this page is to discuss the Jewish Task Force article on Wikipedia. Thank you for your cooperation. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 1 July 2005 01:30 (UTC)


A response to the South African

I know he'll continue inserting his comments into my responses making it even more difficult to follow the discussion or debate, if you want to call it that.

And what were those ¨detailed responses¨? Yet again you claim that you have proven your case and yet you have not even attempted to do anything but launch personal attacks. As for your personal attacks, how is it that you claim I am conradictory, delusional and lackign of reading comprehension? If by ¨contradictory¨ you mean that I have been willing to reword some of what I have written, that is actually called ¨compromise¨. I know that you see another persons compromise as a sign of weakness and use any such compromise I make to negate all of the other stuff I have said. So far you have shown ZERO compromise. It is either your way or no way.

First you asked where the money goes to and claimed that there is no proof of the accountability of where the money goes to. User 24.193.128.76 gave you an ample amount of information which you could have used and taken the time to look into it for yourself. You ask for websites as proof. In any search engine type in "Noam Federman" in the appropriate field. Also check *Rotter.net.

You say JTF is a white supremacist organization and then you retract your statement and just claim that it's racist. I view your so-called compromising as backpeddling, not as a sign of weakness. I took the time to address the issue of racism in my rewrite, but yet you claimed it was another "whitewash" attempt and that it was just simply "brochureware" for JTF. A controversial quote which was found in the objective rewrite, which you claimed was another "whitewash" attempt, was then used by you to justify that JTF is a racist organization.

You go on to question the legitmacy of my claim that I'm black and also claim that you think that I'm part of the JTF "clan" who was "sent" here with "fabricated stories" to make JTF look good. You take your delusions a step further by now claiming that I'm most likely user 24.193.128.76.

Your argument is always one-sided. When I started the objective rewrite I presented both sides. You quickly debunked it as being another "whitewash" attempt. Clearly you are the one not willing to make any compromise whatsoever. I commend the other editors who have made minor NPOV modifications to my objective rewrite.

Your sympathy is misplaced. And, yes, you are protected by free speech as are all of the other racists in America. You wish to exclude me from involvement because I, unlike most people, can not be intimidated. Call me all the names under the sun, I do not care. But I can not sit by why you try to call JTF a ¨civil rights organization¨.

I agree. You do not deserve my sympathy. Who here is trying to intimidate you? Now, you fail to differentiate between real life and the internet. Again you misinterpret what I have said because of your lack of rudimentary reading comprehension skills. The organization's televion program runs on a public access network which provides a less restrictive environment and more freedom in terms of what they can say. Well, perhaps Virginia Fields may disagree, but that is irrelavant to this "debate". Anyway, even freedom of speech has limitations. Chaim has never insinuated violence against minorities. Perhaps the equivalent of screaming fire in a movie theater. As a black male when I travel to the city, I'm not watching my back for Chaim Ben Pesach or other JTF spokespersons, I'm cautiously looking out for other blacks and minorities in order to avoid troublesome encounters. I personally think that JTF is a civil rights organization because of their efforts to help the Jewish people, but I purposely did not insert it blatantly into the locked article. I'd stick around and wait for your predictable response, but I have an actual job and this is quite counter-productive. --24.47.31.1 3 July 2005 02:34 (UTC)

A response to the "African American" JTF Supporter

Mr "African American" (or can I call you nigger, baboon, ape, animal and all the other terms Victor uses to address true African Americans?"), since my inserting of my replies confuses you, despite it being the traditional way most wikipedians use for replies, I will reply in this fashion.

You claim that because the word "Noam Federman" can be found via a search engine that it is proof that is were all the monies recieved that JTF has solicited for in the past 10 years or so. When I go and google "noam federman" and "jewish task force" the only articles that comes up is stuff copied by JTF supporters which usually include "Please remember to include JTF in your will!". Do you think Noam Federman considers himself a member of the JTF? In any event, this is just a side issue. As I have said before I don't really care if Victor rips off his fellow racists. I just hope that he will slip up in his tax returns and get investigated and charged with fraud like David Duke did. Then again, Victor seems very proud of his felony conviction and wears is as a badge of honor.

You also claim that I am delusional to assume you were not sent here by 24.193.128.76 (Who at first claimed not to be close to JTF's organization and was proven a liar when it was pointed out that his ISP is a cable modem from New York City). Let me ask you one question: Where were you all of this time before the JTF article was locked? How did you know about it being locked? Were you a regular wikipedia editor prior to the article being locked? You seemed to have come out of nowhere and then all of a sudden, after one edit, got the nod of approval from 24.193.128.76 to rewrite the aritcle. You have all the hallmarks of what we at wikipedia call a Sockpuppet. If you are not a sockpuppet, you were clearly sent here by 24.193.128.76 and are speaking on his behalf. You have the same writing styles.

You also claim that there have not been any intimidation attempts by the JTF fanatics here. You clearly missed 24.193.128.76's earlier threats of "exposing me here and in South Africa" and also legal threats he put on the talk page of Wikpedia's founder, Jimbo Wales. You don't consider that intimidation? Of course you don't, because you even admit that you think JTF is a civil rights organization. And you deny JTF is racist. And you are "African American". And 24.193.128.76 lives "too far from the east coast" to have met Victor.

It is very odd that there isn't one single editor here who supports JTF and admits being Jewish? We have a "African American" JTF supporter. We also have a "Mexican American" JTF supporter. I'm sure we will soon be having Arab and Homosexual JTF supporters. Maybe even a Neo-Nazi JTF supporter! You never know what will happen with JTF! 168.209.98.35 3 July 2005 08:25 (UTC)

Discussion and editing

There's now an editable version of the article, which has so far been edited by one person. None of the anonymous "contributors" above have found time to touch it — they're far too busy with their little squabble here. I think that that shows where their priorities are. Aren't there enough Usenet groups to keep you all happy? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 3 July 2005 10:30 (UTC)

I have read the one you have on your user page and I am happy with it. That is why I didn't edit it. 168.209.98.35 3 July 2005 10:45 (UTC)
Fine — then there's nothing to argue about. Once the war of words has cooled, and there's a version of the article that's acceptable, then the page can be unprotected. As long as people are throwing insults and innuendos about, unprotecting looks foolhardy. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 3 July 2005 14:03 (UTC)

A response

I think I'm going to copy and paste that repsonse and then print it out on toilet paper.

Why is it not suprising that a JTF supporter has a toilet paper printer???
Again, a proven lack of rudimentary reading skills and a feeble attempt to insult me.

Why would I "admit" to being something I'm not?

Simple. You want to "prove" that JTF is not racist by having someone purportedly claim to be Afrian American and supports JTF. You want to say "How can you consider us racists when we have black supporters?".
I'm not here to "prove" that JTF is not racist. That is my opinion. They look out for their own people. Meanwhile, you're here speaking on behalf of my people and you're a Hindu. You're trying to dictate to me how to think and what to think. Of course, I personally think that some of the remarks are offensive. The comment about Barack Obama looking like a monkey and sounding like a nigger deeply offended me. I had a marginal amount of respect for Obama before I realized that he supported "liberating occupied" PLO territory, and associates himself with Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. It was a mistake to even bother mentioning my race. I'm dealing with a paranoid and delusional individual.

I edited a handful of other articles here, but I mainly use this as an information resource.

How many articles?
Look it up yourself.

You fancy yourself as a "Wikipedian" and attempt to edify me about certain terminology in a condescending manner as if I'm not computer literate. You are just a faceless stranger with a computer. You know, you ask a lot of questions. A lot of them so ridiculously stupid that they are not worthy of a response. Now, I have a question for you. Why would someone threaten legal action against the founder of Wikipedia if he knowingly was involved in a scam?

I'm not saying you are computer illiterate. What I was saying is that the method I use to reply here you claim are confusing despite the fact it's the way replying is mostly done on Wikipedia.
And to answer your question of why someone would threaten legal action against the founder of Wikipedia if they were involved in a scam... Well.. That's called "desperation" and "making a bluff". In fact, pretending to be an African American supporter of JTF is most likely a bluff. Ever played Poker with a lousy hand delt to you?
Uh huh, thanks for the edification! As you will have noticed other people engaging in this discussion have not inserted their replies into other people's comments. Since it's a Wiki, Wiki world here I have decided to comply.

As far as "desperation"? Thanks for the wonderful cliché analogy, which manages to completely evade the question without much reasoning. Wait, I wouldn't expect that from you of all people.

I'm really not too concerned about some idiot rambling about possible conspiracies and other nonsense.

Call me all the names you want. It's water off a ducks back.

Continue though, this is hilarious. David Duke? Perhaps Rabbi Meir Kahane, but David Duke?

Yeah, David Duke. He is also a racist who also claimed to be raising money for one cause and spending it on another. He spent over a year in prison for it. You really should keep track of your competition a little better and learn from their "mistakes".
Competition? David Duke is a white Jesse Jackson. End of discussion.
Yeah, your competition. JTF has pretty much the same target market as the other white racist organizations, but only those that don't also lump anti-semetism on top of their hate-list. Oh, and Rabbi Kahane was not racist, he was a zionist who simply wanted Jews to return to their home land. Comparing Victor to Rabbi Kahane is a huge insult to Rabbi Kahane. 168.209.98.35 4 July 2005 04:31 (UTC)

Oh, and the Arab JTF "supporters" all accidently detonated themselves before they could meet Victor.

Careful now.. You are trying to claim that JTF is not racist..
Careful? With what? That's my opinion, not a fact.
Your claim that the Arab JTF "supporters" all accidently detonated themselves before they could meet Victor is simply your opinion is proof that your opinions are based on racist generalizations. And you still claim that JTF is a civil rights group? 4 July 2005 04:31 (UTC)
I think that the Arabs have done a great injustice and continue to do a great injustice to my people. Yes, my black people. They can pay off all of these black so-called "leaders" and pretend everything is well between blacks and Arabs, but I know better. As a black person the Arabs are my enemy. I have no sympathy for them.
And you also claim that 94 percent of America's blacks are also your enemies. Who isn't your enemy? How can you live with yourself with so much hatred? 168.209.98.35 4 July 2005 04:31 (UTC)

The objective rewrite: Jewish Task Force/temp --24.47.31.1 3 July 2005 14:16 (UTC)

No. The rewrite is under Mel's personal page. It is against Wikipedia policy to put it under article space. Oh wait, policies and rules don't apply to JTF supporters. Sorry, I forgot. 168.209.98.35 3 July 2005 14:36 (UTC)
I violated Wikipedia's policies and rules? The temporary page was established by jpgordon, not me. --24.47.31.1 3 July 2005 23:55 (UTC)
After edit conflict:
It's difficult to see what this is a response to, but it's more of the same, and my comments in the previous section apply to it too.
The Jewish Task Force/temp will be deleted in day or so; if there's anything useful in it that isn't in User:Mel Etitis/JTF, it should be transferred quickly. There's no point having two alternative versions.
Note, though, that if User:Mel Etitis/JTF becomes just another edit-battlefield, that will ensure that the main article remains protected, as it will be obvious that unprotecting it will lead to the same situation. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 3 July 2005 14:42 (UTC)

The Racist Nazi Anti-Semetic South African is withdrawing from this article

It seems Mel Etitis has now joined with the rest of the JTF team here in their efforts to whitewash JTF´s image. Mel has also allowed a constant stream of abuse to be leveled at me (thanks to jpgordon, however, for your efforts to do what Mel refuses to do). I have followed the procedure for resolution (RfC, etc) as best as I could and nothing came of it. Nothing.

I did what I thought was right, but there comes a time when one realizes they are pissing into the wind. Well, I now have an empty bladder and wet trousers.

I am finished with my edits to this article. Feel free to call JTF a civil rights organzion or anything else you want. Congrats, you have won.

Over and out -The Nazi Anti-Semetic Racist South African (aka: 168.209.98.35/fishpaste)

Unprotecting

This article has been protected for yonks and one of the parties to the dispute seems to have given up. See last edit on User:Mel Etitis/JTF (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)): " 18:32, 4 July 2005 168.209.98.35 (JTF troopers!! Mel Etitis has prompted me to end my edits to this and the main JTF page, so do what you want with it without me getting in the way!! Enjoy!)". Unprotecting. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 6 July 2005 13:38 (UTC)

Knee-jerk reverting

Could the anon. who blanket-reverted all my tidying and Wikifying edits explain for each of them what he objects to? If, as I strongly suspect, he has no objections to them, only to me, would he grow up? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:54, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Why I Made Some Changes

I made some changes but do not know if they involve any of Mel's writing because I did not check who wrote what.

First of all, Mel, if I make any changes it has nothing to do with you personally. I hope our past disagreements will not prevent future cooperation whenever necessary. I have no interest in pursuing endless personal disputes which are a complete waste of time and effort for everyone involved.

The changes that I made were primarily intended to eliminate sentences that are repetitious. For example, there is no need to repeat four or five times that JTF funds the Hilltop Youth and Noam Federman. Mentioning it once or twice is sufficient.

I even eliminated several sentences which were quite positive toward JTF because I felt that they were poorly written and did not actually add anything substantive to the reader's understanding of the subject matter. Those sentences which quote JTF praising itself as "a breath of fresh and inspiring" as well as other assorted accolades were superfluous, in my view.

I also added the paragraphs that note that liberal Jewish organizations and the current Israeli government condemn JTF, because readers have a right to know that JTF is indeed a controversial group.

The current article is not perfect but it is relatively objective and I do not believe that the article will draw much criticism from readers (unlike the prior article which drew a torrent of criticism from all quarters). 24.193.128.76

The edit to which I referred [2] was made by 168.209.98.35 (talk • contribs) at 17:41, 10 July 2005, and had the edit summary:
"Mel, please don't edit this article. The ONLY thing we all agree with is that you are incompetent as a mediator in this dispute. If you can't do the job right, please don't attempt it at all."
--Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:28, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Mel, please look at that diff again (or have someone else look at it for you and explain it to you) and tell me what changes I reverted that YOU made. I reverted the confusing wikification of "North" in "Northern Samaria" which was NOT made by you, but rather by BD2412 and reverted back to the disambiguous link to Hebrew.
Pay attention next time, Mel, you are getting sloppy. You are starting to sound a lot like 24.193.128.76 when you accuse me of stuff that can't be supported anywhere but in your own mind. 168.209.98.35 01:48, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

It's true that the revert turned out to have nothing to do with me — which makes the edit summary even more uncalled for. Read Wikipedi:No personal attacks; if you continue in this way, you could risk being blocked from editing. Incidentally, can you explain what was wrong with the "Hebrew (language)" disambiguation and the wikification of North Samaria? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:10, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Wow.. You DO know about the Wikipedia:No Personal Attacks policy after all! Where were you all along when the JTF fanatics were attacking me in this talk page? Why did you not reply to my message left on your userpage politely asking you to ask the JTF fans to call off their dogs? Why is it that you fail to do your duties until you yourself are the victim of a personal attack?
Also, North Samaria was not wikified. Only ¨North¨ in North Samaria was wikified. Anyone who clicks on that link would find an article having nothing to do with Northern Samara. I already explained that, but then again you tend to not read what is written before replying and attacking me. 168.209.98.35


I am pleased to see the positive progress that has been made here. I retract any previous personal statements pertaining to Mel, who has made a valiant effort to resolve this issue. Thank you. --24.47.31.1 09:02, 11 July 2005 (UTC)


Yes, you are happy with Mel because he is letting the Jewish Task Force article continue to use highly POV terms and outright lies that the JTF warriors were pushing for all along, even going so far as to calling the 9-11 attacks Muslim Nazi attacks (Thanks, Mel, for keeping that in the article while, at the same time, you help tidy it up. It only shows that grammer and punctuation is more important than honesty and neutral POV in your eyes.) 168.209.98.35
168.209.98.35, you cannot blaim Mel for a content that he did not add himself. All editors clean what they can, but nobody is under obligation to clean anything. (Nor do I think there is anything wrong with using a few citations from JTF writings with a word Nazi - as long as it is clear that this is a direct citation. JTF uses the word "Nazi" so often that the article would not be complete without mentioning it).--Vlad1 11:54, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:10, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, Thanks, Mel. Jewish Task Force is now a model for all wikipedia articles. Well, almost. I think the article needs to call more people Nazis like it does the 9-11 terrorists. 168.209.98.35

Fanzine material

The paragraph starting "On a personal note" was completely inappropriate for an article like this. First, the article isn't on ben Pesach; secondly, details of his family, and especially his taste for health food, are irrelevant, and reminiscent of articles on teeny-pop stars. The same goes, incidentally, for the tendency to call him by his first name rather than his family name. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:32, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Why has the South African turned on Mel?

I am amazed to see how the South African has turned on Mel. Surely, he cannot accuse Mel of being another JTF supporter. Mel described comments by myself and other editors as "racist", "unpleasant" and part of the "extreme right." However, Mel is not trying to insert his personal opinions into the article but rather demands that the article be objective. Isn't that what wikipedia is supposed to be about?

You will notice that Mel's decision to freeze the old biased article drew enormous criticism from many editors. You can see above that many editors - most of whom were not JTF supporters - strongly disagreed with that decision.

But now the only one criticizing Mel's actions is the South African. Everyone else realizes that the current article at least tries to present an objective review of the subject matter. The current article is certainly a vast improvement over the old article that was written by the South African.

Yes, the current article is far from perfect. Mel is correct when he states that the article should refer to Chaim Ben Pesach by his family name rather than his first name. But I don't think that the reference to Chaim by his first name was deliberate, I think it was just careless. Even the South African always referred to Chaim by his first name.

Mel, no one is criticizing you now other than the South African. So you must be doing something right. I had strong disagreements with you in the past, and I may disagree with you again in the future, but I believe that your current actions are reasonable and competent. 24.193.128.76

Chaim

Chaim's family name is Vancier, not Ben Pesach. Ben Pesach simply means The Son of Pesach. His father's name is Pesach Ben Dov, Pesach The Son of Dov.

And there used to be a seperate article on Chaim but they threatened to delete it so I moved all of its content on to this article. I was the original author of Chaim's biography.

The current version is very good, neat, and organized.

It is very good that the site was divided into sections. Also, the image of the JTF website was very good.

JTF and Islam section

The second paragraph of this section is repeating twice that "Chaim has urged everyone to read the Koran themselves". Also, I think it is POV - not in form, as it attributes all statements to Chaim or JTF, but in essense - it is creating an impression that JTF is not saying anything that everybody cannot check for themself.

I am not insisting on my edit that was reverted by 68.80.133.163 (without any edit summary), but I think that this section needs attention.--Vlad1 03:47, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

What would you like to expand on? What specifically is it that JTF is saying that is disputable about Islam? You have to be more specific and elaborate on your claim. If it really is deserving of more attention than do not provide such vague assessments. --24.47.31.1 21:06, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

"Liberal" Jewish organizations

I changed the section regarding the attitudes of Bnai Brith and the Simon Wiesenthal Center so that it says "mainstream" Jewish organization reaction, not "liberal". For the most part I would consider these organizations to be non-political but "mainstream" is accurate since these are Jewish-oriented organizations that the public at large is familiar with. --hairymon

It's a disgrace to the Jewish community that these organizations have enough influence to be considered "mainstream". I have much more respect for the now defunct JDL and the JTF than all of those organizations combined. --24.47.31.1 23:58, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

But they are and I have changed it back. However, I did leave the line regarding JTF vs. its critics as "liberal" since obviously (particularly to JTF) their viewpoints are further to the left --hairymon

Why link to Prophet of Doom?

I'm not aware of any link between Craig Winn and the JTF... GCarty 17:01, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Craig Winn appeared on a couple of JTF broadcasts. Craig posted an e-mail exchange between him and Chaim that is available on the POD.net website in the resources section. - *Link --24.47.31.1 01:57, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
OK, I've linked directly to this discussion - the original link seemed irrelevant. GCarty 07:43, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
It is of relevance because it supports JTF's position on Islam and in the article Craig Winn is mentioned as one of the "Righteous Gentile" guests. The casual reader will already know that there is a connection. --24.47.31.1 14:27, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../j/e/w/Talk%7EJewish_Task_Force_Archive01_e0a8.html"