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[edit] Recent changes

Ian, I see you reverted most of my changes to the article. I would like you to explain a few points.

1. What is the sentence "They were manipulated by the Haganah into an élite force." is supposed to mean? To manipulate someone is to "influence or manage shrewdly or deviously". How can someone be manipulated to become an elite force? Should it be that Haganah trained them or something like this?

2. Who is a Christian Zionist? Is there an organization or a group of people who refer to themselves, or are widely refered to, as Chritian Zionists? Per definition of the article Christian Zionism, he is supposed to believe that the judgement times (or something like this) would come if sufficiently many jews were to immigrate to Israel, and then take on a Christian faith? Can you source him making such statements? As far as I am concerened, he was a Zionist supporter, not a "Christian Zionist".

3. Is sentence "Arabs feared him greatly" supposed to mean anything? If they were a military unit fighting some Arab groups, then those Arab groups would of course fear them. What is the point of writing it? The statement is simply way too general, it doesn't really give any information.

The way I put the article is much more encyclopedic, with more clear facts and less misty quotations. I am putting it back. --Heptor 14:28, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Heptor, Have you simply changed this article because Moshe asked you to do so on your talk page [1] or have you consulted the sources supplied in the article and found them to be inaccurate? You have deleted one source (Katz); no reader can check it, and you've changed the other so that if anyone does check it they'll find it to be wrong. Black says that Wingate was a Christian Zionist, and so do three other sources that I have checked. This is a specific quotation placed in quotation marks. You can check three of the references for yourself here [2]. Katz says "the Arabs feared them greatly". This is a direct quotation and should be in quotation marks. You can check it yourself here [3].

I followed the link Moshe gave, read the article and did my best to improve it. I already explained why I deleted the sentence containing the Katz quotation. Yes, I understand that there are sources claiming that Wingate was a Christian Zionist. Still, in the way the quotation is included, most readers would consider it a fact. If you want to include quotations about a person, you are welcome to do so in the quotation section. As to the sentence "the Arabs feared them greatly", it is a blanket term, even if quoted from somewhere else. --Heptor 17:20, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Heptor, your edits

Heptor, please respond to my questions about your edits posted on your talk page here --Ian Pitchford 19:00, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I did; please move both your questions and my response to this talk page, where they after all do belong. --Heptor 19:41, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Articles aren't improved by the deletion of sources and facts Heptor. I'm sure you don't believe that ignorance is a good thing. Why should readers not know that the Hagana developed the JSP into an elite force, that the Arabs feared them, and that Wingate was a fanatical Christian Zionist? He's a significant figure in the history of this period. Indeed, Moshe Dayan called Wingate a "genius" and admired him greatly. Ariel Sharon was an instructor in the JSP. If you are going to keep deleting sources the article might as well be put up at "Votes for Deletion" and readers can remain in ignorance. --Ian Pitchford 20:10, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

If you establish that he indeed was a Christian Zionist, that is fine by me. At the time present, you have one author describing him as a Christian Zionist. Did Wingate regard himself as a Chritian Zionist? Did he publically announced that he had believes that you find consistent with Christian Zionism? At time present, you have one author who labeled him as a Chritian Zionist, and this is not notable.

Please note, I do not claim that he was not a Chritian Zionist, there is not enough sources to make any claim in an encyclopedia.

BTW, I trust that in "Wingate was a fanatical Christian Zionist", i believe the word fanatical comes strait from your heart? --Heptor 22:09, 8 December 2005 (UTC)