Talk:Jew Watch/Archive 1

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

1 Google ban
2 "Global Jewry"
3 Reverting edits
4 Who's behind jewwatch
5 Linking to jewwatch
6 More links
7 Anti-Semites Now #1 for "Rabbi jokes" on Google
8 POV?
9 From VfD on Frank Weltner
10 Biased
11 Censorship
12 NPOV - content removal
13 -POV slant, +Facts
14 This is not poisoning the well
15 Poisoning the well

Google ban

To the person who thinks Google has banned Jew Watch from its index read the statement more closely. It says:

We'd like to explain why you're seeing these results when you conduct this search.

Note the present tense; these are not the words of an organisation that has just banned the offensive results. See also [1], which quotes Director of Corporate Communications David Krane:

No, Google did not blacklist or make any other manual change to intentionally remove the jewwatch.com website from our index. It does not currently appear in Google's search results because the website was offline for a number of days last week. In our most recent crawl of the web, we were unable to reach the jewwatch.com website, therefore it was not included in our index. Now that the site is back up again, it's likely that at some point soon, jewwatch.com will re-appear in Google. Evercat 20:28, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps so, but, Google also did not appreciate being Google bombed either, and which has falsely distorted the search results and which was the actual censorship reason for doing it.-PV

"Global Jewry"

Removed the "global jewry" nonsense and other POV from article - Tεx τ urε 17:18, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Texture, are you disputing that they do claim "global Jewry" is responsible or not? Whether it is "nonsense" or not is really up to the reader to decide, right?-PV

I merely restored "global jewry" from your change (which sought to remove the quotes and present it as a believed fact). Please keep the quotes and do not add more references that are unnecessary. those changes appear to be an effort to present Jew Watch's opinion as fact. It is not and should not be represented as such. - Tεx τ urε 17:42, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

The quotes around "global jewry" aren't any issue, as it is their political position, and I as didn't mean to delete these quotation marks, even if I had actually done so. With them or not, it was still clear that that is their own position. As far as linked "references", they are necessary to present a NPOV, and this is true whether you do in your own pov just happen to agree with it or not.-PV

Reverting edits

(cur) (last) . . m 17:17, 5 May 2004 . . Texture (Reverted edits by 24.45.99.191 to last version by AndyL)

On the contrary, you both had removed valid and NPOV links to the article. Obviously, you are only "proving the allegations" of both the White separatists and of Jewwatch with your own biased and pov censorship.-PV

(cur) (last) . . 18:56, 5 May 2004 . . AndyL (My psychological projector is on the fritz so I'm unsure what my ilk desires at the moment.)

Not from what you have said below! LOL! :D-PV

Sorry Paul, the Global Jewish Conspiracy (Inc) has ordered us to edit this article. Who are you to stand in the way of the Elders of Zion? Join us and we can rule the universe together, stand in our way and you'll be squashed like a bug. BWAHAHAHAHAHA. Conspiracy out. AndyL 18:59, 5 May 2004 (UTC)~

Sorry, AndyL, you are not even my father nor any Darth Vader, but, even if you actually were, I would not ever join the DARK SIDE of the FORCE. What is it to conquer the whole world and yet to lose one's very soul? Thanks but no thanks! :D At least you do have a sense of humor, AndyL, even though I am quite serious about it. Best regards, PV

That's way more than three reverts, guys. You know what happens next. DJ Clayworth 21:03, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Who's behind jewwatch

It has outlasted several attacks by cybersquatters ridiculing the Blue Ribbon Free Speech campaign with their own "Black Ribbon Campaign of Hate".

I've removed this until someone explains it. It makes little sense at present. "Attacks by cybersquatters"? Eh? And I can only find one Google hit for "Black Ribbon Campaign of Hate"... Evercat 12:35, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Could we have some info on who is behind this website? Someone must know. Adam 12:15, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

Aren't the friendly, neighbourhood neo-nazis at Stormfront behind it?AndyL 16:16, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

If you know this to be so, then put it in the article. That is the only real justification for its existence, otherwise it is just anti-Semite free publicity. Adam 00:08, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

Linking to jewwatch

Hello why to directly link to jewwatch??? because wikipedia hase a high pagerank in google, direct links from the site would be a big promotion. also jewwatch has "jew" in the title, so by direct linking to it you promote it iven more. Do U seriosly think that ACLU is an evil zionist organization? That they own poland? they were killd in poland!!! Christiany is jewish??? Jews killed 100,000,000 christians in russia, jews themseves were killed and sent to jail in russia in million. if not then why promote this site you can simply link to it as www [dot] jewwatch [dot] com.

The above anon user munged the external link to the site, and I, checking diff and seeing the address changed, reverted the edit. After he responded on my talk page, I read through the site in more detail and realized that there is a Google bomb issue and that a Wikipedia direct link to the site might help increase its page ranking on Google. He (and anyone else for that matter) can feel free to change back my revert to the munged version, but I thought a discussion here on the talk page would be the best course of action. I'm not greatly familiar with Google's pagerank system and how Google bombs work, but, with my current knowledge, it does seem like the direct link would contribute. Should the external link be kept in its normal format, or does the controversy surrounding the site justify munging the address as the anon user suggested? – Jrdioko (Talk) 01:52, May 18, 2004 (UTC)

If we have an article about a website, then we must provide a link to that website. It is not our job to control who ranks where on google. Adam 01:53, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

To not link to the site under discussion is to make a POV judgement on the content of that site, which is not in the Wikipedia spirit. RickK 02:22, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

I didn't see it that way, and that makes sense. It still seems to me that munging the address would still be providing a link (which I think we all agree should be done) while avoiding contributing to a Google bomb. If a direct link from Wikipedia does significantly contribute to its ranking, it seems as if Wikipedia is, in a way, contributing to an anti-semitic cause by leaving the link in place. However, now that I think about it, even though Wikipedia is a popular site, the one link can't make a huge difference and NPOV policies do state that no judgement is placed on anything (including anti-semitism). I haven't personally dealt with one of these articles before, and now I see why all these NPOV edit wars keep popping up all over the place. Thanks for the info, and I'll try to do better at keeping NPOV in mind when editing. – Jrdioko (Talk) 03:43, May 18, 2004 (UTC)

If it is Wikipedia's job not to give publicity to anti-Semites, then we should not have an article on Jewwatch at all. But that is not our job, our job is to provide information. What happens at Google is none of our business. Adam 03:51, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

Lets promote hate speech and hate crime. who realy cares about these jews.

what does it meter that when a kid searching for defenisoon of a jew he finds racist site.so what?so what that when the kid will grow he will kill jews, i don't have jew friend, i dont care.Thats of cource im being sarcastic. --82.80.10.110 04:27, 18 May 2004 (UTC) and dont delete from there the fact that news sites and wikipedia are googlebombing, this is true.

Lets be neutral to hate speech and crime, maybe they are right that little children are ocupants and must be killed.

We dont responsible for google lets ignore it. and the world wasnt responsible for WWII thats why they ignored it.

Take a look at Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Morally_offensive_views for an response to that particular objection to the policy. Also, the article should explain that the site has been used as part of a Google bomb before, but shouldn't argue that Wikipedia is purposely supporting the bomb in an attempt to promote anti-semitic views. – Jrdioko (Talk) 04:57, May 18, 2004 (UTC)

Anti-Semites Now #1 for "Rabbi jokes" on Google

Google’s #1 listing for more and more search terms is being captured by anti-Semitic and neo-Nazi web-sites.

In April 2004 the “jewwatch" incident was widely publicized. When Steve Weinstock entered the search term "Jew" on Google, the world's leading search engine, the openly anti-Jewish web-site http://www.jewwatch.info appeared as the very first listing!

Mr. Weinstock launched a campaign - at http://www.removejewwatch.com - to remove that site from the top spot. He initially succeeded, but the site soon regained the first position before again losing it. It appears to be an ongoing battle.

Since May 2004 Google's #1 listing for "Rabbi Jokes" shows neo-nazi Gary Lauck’s site http://www.nazi-lauck-nsdapao.com . The 20-language site has cartoon animations of leading Jewish figures, free nazi computer game downloads, holocaust denial books and the nazi film “The Eternal Jew”.

Internet activists are urged to cut-and-paste this announcement and insert it into forums.

What has this got to do with the article? Please stop using this page for anonymous news bulletins. Adam 02:11, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

POV?

I appreciate the recent edit on the article. But, still more NPOV is needed (IMHO) and now the article seems more anti-jewwatch. Also, there may not be need to stress http://www.removejewwatch.com/ as the campaign itself is moronic

For the third time: I will not respond to anonymous comments. Adam 08:42, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

This is not anonymous. Just forgot to sign in hurry --Rrjanbiah 11:16, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

OK. If you want to suggest how the article can be made more NPOV, you are free to do so. But I hope you will not do so by suggesting that we return to the wording that Jew Watch is "said by some people to be anti-Semitic" or some such nonsense. I will oppose any such change. Re removejewwatch, the question is not whether it is moronic, but whether it is relevant to the article, which it is. Adam 23:35, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

I agree. I think Jew Watch can objectively be described as anti-semitic. I don't think it's necessary for NPOV to have ridiculous statements such as "Hitler may have been anti-Semitic". Some things are a given. AndyL 23:40, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

From VfD on Frank Weltner

The Wikipedia should not be a platform to publicise people with minority views so abhorrent to a civilized society, that the Wiki is the only place they are able to air them. Sorry if this sounds pompous. It's Delete: Giano 20:44, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Redirect to Jew Watch. Rick K 21:02, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)
Well, JewWatch was certainly notable, and the article claims he's been quoted in the Washington Post and NY Times; if this article is true in those regards, then he's certainly attracted a good deal of attention. His name gets 896 google hits. Keep for now, seems notable, but somebody stub this thing and pick out the anti-Semitism and wild claims. A redirect would serve as well, if it's deemed he's not notable [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 21:04, 2004 Aug 3 (UTC)
Delete or redirect - vanity/advert for a cause - Tεx τ urε 21:10, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Reluctantly, keep. The subject of an article having abhorrent views is not a criterium for deleting an article (to give the obvious example: Adolf Hitler). And Frank Weltner does seem to be notable (infamous?) enough to warrant an entry. I added a "neutrality disputed" note to the current version of the article, though - it is horribly POV. Elf-friend 21:13, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Delete: Extremists are good at getting in the papers. Scream, throw a brick, and you, too, can be in the paper. This is so marginal a phenomenon that only Klan Watch needs to note it. Geogre 21:20, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Delete or cleanup so that it's about 40 words long, then redirect. Hayford Peirce 21:58, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Redirect. -Sean Curtin 00:33, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Marginal keep. There is some basis for notability. I won't judge the inclusion of an article based on my dislike of its subject, but this certainly needs major NPOVing if kept. Everyking 00:51, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Unfortunately, keep. Well known but despicable subject. Rhymeless 05:06, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Delete, per Geogre's comment. Ambi 07:04, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Delete; redirect to Jew watch sounds good. Samboy 08:54, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This horrible man and his repulsive views may be considered notable in USA., but the English speaking World is huge and he's so far not known there! Do the World a favour and keep it that way, before he and his like do gain the momentum and become truly 'Wiki-worthy' like Adolf Hitler Giano 21:56, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- A lot (most?) of Wikipedia's articles would have to be deleted if the criterium for inclusion was world-wide notability. Whether a topic or a person is repulsive or not should not be the reason for listing an article on VfD. Valid reasons are: Patent nonsense, Original research, No potential to become encyclopedic, Completely idiosyncratic non-topic, Vanity page, Advert or other spam, Inappropriate user pages in excessive or stubborn cases. IMHO this article doesn't fall under any of these topics although the article should be heavily NPOV'ed, of course. But as the originator/owner of a website against which a googlebombing campaign involving Wikipedia was waged he is, unfortunately, notable. Elf-friend 23:29, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Biased

This section previously contained my original cliams of bias in the article. They no longer appear relevant. Please view the history of this talk page for previous content. Uncle Bungle 18:40, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Censorship

The body of this section contained my arguments supporting the statement "JewWatch was censored from google". Since that point of view has been included, I don't think it is necessary to congest the talk page with a resolved argument. Of course, the original text can still be viewd in the history of the talk page. Uncle Bungle 21:29, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

NPOV - content removal

This section previously contained my arguments for the removal of all percieved points of view within the article. After a much needed review of Wikipedia:Wikiquette I have realized that this was wrong. The original body of this section is available in the history page, for anyone who is interested.

The article states "Wikipedia articles are supposed to represent all views", and when I was unable to convince the community that my point of view warrented inclusion, I let my emotions get the better of me. This was wrong, and set a bad example for all Wikipedians.

I still, however, consider my point of view legitimate, but instead will work within the framework outlined at Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution. Sincerely, Uncle Bungle 20:57, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Point of view

Uncle Bungle said above, "I propose that the statements mentioned above be removed from the article, because, although factual, they are truly points of view. --Uncle Bungle 20:45, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)"

From Wikipedia:Neutral point of view:

":Articles without bias describe debates fairly rather than advocating any side of the debate."

'Perhaps the easiest way to make your writing more encyclopedic, is to write about what people believe, rather than what is so. If this strikes you as somehow subjectivist or collectivist or imperialist, then ask me about it, because I think that you are just mistaken. What people believe is a matter of objective fact, and we can present that quite easily from the neutral point of view. -- Jimbo Wales, Wikipedia founder

'The neutrality policy is used sometimes as an excuse to delete texts that are perceived as biased. Isn't this a problem?

In many cases, yes. Most of us believe that the mere fact that some text is biased is not enough, by itself, to delete the text outright. If it contains perfectly valid information, the text should simply be edited accordingly, and certainly not deleted.'

I believe our policy includes support for including both the point of view that this site includes accurate information regarding Jews and the point of view that it is an anti-Semitic site. Fred Bauder 11:35, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)

From Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial:

"To attribute means to specify who stands behind a claim. In this example:

"According to most Australians, The Beatles are the best rock music group ever [Rock and Roll Survey 1998]"

the sentence attributes to "most Australians" the claim that the Beatles are the best group ever.

A citation tells readers where they can look to verify that the attribution is accurate. The underlined section above is the citation.

Make only careful use of generic attributions ("Critics say ..."). Some Wikipedians describe these as weasel words, because they can make claims look less obscure or less controversial than they are. In general, when something needs attributing, be specific."

In my recent edits I did use "weasel words". I said "supporters" said, then gave a quote from a talk page post by Uncle Bungle, cheating, I suppose.... I used "critics" to describe those who see the site as anti-Semitic. I think critics of this site extend far beyond the Zionist movement. Fred Bauder 11:49, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)

More from Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial:

Some Wikipedians, in the name of NPOV, try to avoid making any statements that other people find offensive or objectionable, even if objectively true. This is not the intent of NPOV. Many groups would prefer that certain facts be stated euphemistically, or only in their own terminology, or suppressed outright; such desires need not be deferred to. For example,

"FOX News presents news from a viewpoint to the political right of the viewpoint of most news sources."

is an objectively true fact, and can be reported in Wikipedia without qualification. FOX News supporters might prefer that attention not be drawn to this, or that it be stated only in terms of the disputed allegations that FOX News is biased.

Following this policy, the bare statement that Jew Watch is an anti-Semitic site without attributing that view to anyone in particular would seem unobjectionable. After all, we do have an article on anti-Semitism. Fred Bauder 11:49, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)

I only attempted to remove these statements because I was upset over a percieved double standard. There is no doubt in my mind that the content is anti-Semitic, but when I was informed that it had to be left to the readers to come to their own conclusions, I over reacted. This was unacceptable, and having had some time to reflect, I am deeply sorry that I resorted to such childish behaviour. --Uncle Bungle 21:00, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for your explanation. I appreciate it. It is very hard when you are being reverted to resist the temptation to seize on some choice bit the other side is advancing and revert it. If we have a double standard it is because the positions advocated by Jew Watch ARE minority viewpoints and are entitled to less prominent coverage than majority viewpoints. Fred Bauder 11:06, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)

-POV slant, +Facts

If you think the mans religion and ethnicity (the jewish banker from NY) are unimportant maybe your right, but its relevant here, because were talking about Jew watch, and they see it is overwhelmingly important.

I can see how his being Jewish is relevant (although it would be nice to think non-Jews can oppose anti-Semitism too) -- but I don't see how it matters what State or city he is from, or what his occupation is (and I didn't think anyone claimed he was a banker -- are you just relying on a stereotype?) Slrubenstein

Criticism should not be in the intro, but rather in the body of the article. No matter how much you hate these guys (or how crappy their website is, IMO) they are to be depicted in a non-partisan manner. NPOV does not disspate for certain subjects, its a overriding policy here. If that changes, I'm gone ASAP. Thank God for Jimbo and the M:Foundation issues, or this would be the "left-wing politics-o-pedia". Crimminy. Sam [Spade] 15:44, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The issue is not criticism, the issue is how to characterize Jew Watch. We need to characterize it in the first paragraph. For many people, Jew Watch is simply an anti-Semitic website. Maybe some people disagree with this characterization, but it certainly is how many people characterize it and this must be in the first paragraph. Slrubenstein

hey, I just googled "Jew", and the wikipedia article is #1 at the moment ;) Sam [Spade] 15:52, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Please review poisoning the well. Articles should contain information relevant to the subject; an article about Jew Watch contain information about Jew Watch, not personal information about Weinstock. An article about Weinstock should contain personal information about Weinstock. The fact that anti-Semitic Jew-Watch conspiracy theorists view Wienstock's alleged ethnicity as important doesn't matter; it's not Wikipedia standard to randomly list the alleged ethnicity of people, or trivia about their occupations, whenever we mention them, and for good reason. Jayjg 16:00, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This is not poisoning the well

Referring to any anti-Jewisyh website as anti-Semitic is not "poisoning the well". The people who run Jew_Watch openly admit that they hate the Jewish people. Yet in their eyes this is a positive belief, and one that they wish to spread via the world wide web. The fact that some people imagine that this is "poisoning the well" betrays their own beliefs, to wit, that hating Jews is bad, if not evil. Well, I would hope that all people I meet have this view. Nonetheless, this is an opinion, like all beliefs about human beings.

The fact remains that Jew-Watch is proudly anti-Jewish (anti-Semitic.) Therefore it must be correctly described in this way. It would incorrect to write about them in any other way. Saying so cannot be poisoning the well, as being anti-Jewish is considered a positive feature by those who run the website and by those who believe in its mission. Describing a pro-Swiftboat veterans for Truth website as being anti-Kerry is not "poisoning the well" or a personal remark. It is a factual description of the plain beliefs of the people who run the website. The only violation of the encyclopedia's neutrality policy would be to say that "This website is anti-Kerry, and therefore bad or evil", or "This website is anti-Jewish, and therefore bad or evil". But to say that a website or book is anti-Jewish or anti-Kerry is a matter of fact on the record that no one can context.

Your search - "anti-semetic" site:www.jewwatch.com - did not match any documents.

That's because they can spell 'anti-Semitic'. 64.228.164.50 07:54, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Your search - "hate jew" site:www.jewwatch.com - did not match any documents.

Results 1 - 10 of about 111 from www.jewwatch.com for "president".

Results 1 - 10 of about 127 from www.jewwatch.com for "united states".

Results 1 - 1 of 1 from www.jewwatch.com for "puppy".

Of course the site is, by definition, anti-Semetic. I find it interesting that Jew Watch could be said to be proudly anti-semetic, and that they openly admit they hate jewish people, when, according to google, those phrases do not appear anywhere in the site. But, whatever. --Uncle Bungle 23:08, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Poisoning the well

Poisoning the well? isn't that the entire point of Jewwatch.com? Sam [Spade] 15:57, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yes, and Wikipedia should not aid them in their goal. Jayjg 16:00, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Why not? Were only (or should be only) here for one reason, and thats to produce a neutral encyclopedia. Writting a neutral article about these guys is gonna help them, like it or no. Any press is good press, and its not like your going to suprise somebody... "hey! Jewwatch is anti-semitic? And here I've been using it as my home page for the last 6 months!" not a likely incident ;) Sam [Spade] 21:58, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yes, we should be here to write an NPOV Encyclopedia, and not to assist Jew-Watch in its attempts to poison the well. It turns out that those are different activities. Jayjg 23:11, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What we are going to be doing is documenting their position, the position of those who oppose them, and the opinions of outside expert opinion (if any). Covering up the position of Jewwatch serves neither NPOV, nor the readers. Sam [Spade] 23:18, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

So it is now one of Jew-Watch's important "postions" that Weinstock is a Jewish real-estate broker from New York? And if we don't note that then we are "covering up" important information? And we're even going to bring "witnesses" from the other side who dispute that? Honestly! Leave the page for important information, not trivia, or supporting Jew-watch's well-poisoining campaigns. Jayjg 15:20, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Now isn't it absolutely fascinating that User:Sam Spade feels the urge to come to the defense of such trash as "JewWatch" et al? Makes you wonder doesn't it? IZAK 07:52, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC) --Uncle Bungle 18:36, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Makes me wonder who is making the above statement, you or "Uncle.bungle". Sam [Spade] 21:00, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

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