Category talk:Jewish-American politicians

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[edit] Political vs. Politician

I think there should be some discussion about what exactly is a "politician." In just looking over this list I see Alan Greenspan, Ruth Bader Ginsberg, Felix Frankfurter, Julian Mack, people I know (and checking their articles confirms this) did not make seeking elected public office as their careers. They were academics, jurists, and regulators, and while their jobs and actions were certainly political, this does not make them politicians.

I appreciate the effort to bring more clarity to the Jewish-American category. It was probably very large and making finer distinctions into subcategories, such as politicians, is a good thing. I'm just quibbling about the categorization of certain individuals as politicians. Perhaps there could be a Jewish-American Academic category, or a Jewish-American Jurist category.--RedJ 17 18:38, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm too scared to create any more categories, but what you're saying seems reasonable. I think it's a good idea. Vulturell 04:07, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I'll go further and question this Category in its entirety, both the "politician" label as mentioned -- Ruth Ginsburg, Ben Bernanke, Hans Kelsen and several others are not / were not politicians -- but also the "Jewish" label... How has it been determined here that people considered for this category are, or are not, "Jewish"? I'm not aware of any science, involved in such a judgement -- a lot of pseudo-science, yes, and a lot of hate-crime propaganda, but not any science -- so if these people have not declared themselves as being "Jewish", I don't know how the Wikipedia authors of this Category know that they are?

Evidence needs to be posted, as for any other Wikipedia article: a citation and quotation in Discussion/Talk here -- some declaration made by the person being designated -- would do it, for me. In the absence of such evidence, though, this Category looks like an anti-Semitic hit-list: names not verifiable should be deleted.

--Kessler 23:09, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

The best way to verify, whether a person is Jewish, mainly Jewish, not mainly Jewish, or not Jewish at all, is simply look at the outward racial characteristics. The main characteristics of the Jewish subrace of the Arabian mainrace are:

• black hair,
• brown eyes,
• 'white'-skinned, and
• a rather strongly hooked nose.

In case one of these characteristics is not present, it is unlikely, that the person in question is (mainly) Jewish. (VKing, 7-28-'06)

To continue the former edit, hereby some more argumentation. Often a criterium on which is determined, that somebody is Jewish, is a Jewish name (for instace Cohen), together with the fact that the person in question is known to desent from onetime 100% members of the original Jewish people, then still living in it's natural place on Earth. But from the biological point of view this criterium is hardly relevant. In many cases namely, since then the diaspora has caused a that frequent genetical mixture with members of other etnicies/races (whether or not inside a marriage), that the percentage of biological jewishness is only that low any more, that the nowadays person is much more a member of one or more other etnicies, than of the Jewish one. Former Secretary Allbright for instance is blond, (seems not to be artificial) and bleu-eyed. Therefor in fact she is a mainly Northern-Europide person and for less than 35% Jewish. It's not correct to call her a Jewish (former) American Politician (even when she thinks and says, to be one). (VKing; 7-29-'06). ( [1] )

Are you joking or something? Can I call George Clooney Jewish then? He has dark hair and eyes. Or I could call him Italian. How about half Italian half Jewish? Would you settle for that? Mad Jack 16:05, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Thinking of the few fotographs, VKing has seen of that name in papers, according to him that person also might be half, or more, Spanish.

As for an eventual Jewish part, it all depends of the nose. In this case it is not really (much) jewishly hooked, so the person wouldn't belong in the mentioned catagory, although hair is black and eyes are not blue.VKing 03:11, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I've had red-haired and blond Jewish friends, one with small pug nose. Are they not Jewish? I came here looking for a thoughtful discussion on whether a person needs to self-identify as Jewish-American (to be included in Category:Jewish-American politicians) or if the combination lineage and a reliable source making the claim that the person is a Jewish-American is sufficient. It looks like I've come to the wrong place by mistake. Ufwuct 20:25, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, ignore those bizarre comments by VKing above. The criteria for being listed as Jewish is the same criteria for being listed as "anything" on Wikipedia - having a good source that says they are, and no good sources that say they are not. Mad Jack 20:26, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Since this discussion has spilled over from (Talk:George_Allen_(U.S._politician)#Uh..., which needs archiving...again), and since Allen hasn't said he's "not a Jew" (which he's not likely to explicitly state until at least after November, if ever), I suppose the category could stay for now. However, if Allen does say that he's not Jewish or not a Jew, e.g. "I'm a Presbyterian with Jewish descent but I don't consider myself a Jew...I'm an American!"...(audience applause) or some other spin like this, I think he would be an even more reliable source, as he's talking about himself. If this time comes, let's remove him from the category. Ufwuct 20:40, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

But if you're willing to concede..., perhaps I can retract but concede back again at the same time. If a slightly better source is provided (other than alternet and American Chronicle), then let's go ahead and list him in the category (for now, unless he says he's not Jewish). No need to discuss after this point (of finding a slightly better source)...just add him to the category. Is this acceptable? I think this should allow you to "win" whenever you find the source, which I assume will be very soon. Ufwuct 20:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

A few steps back

"I've had red-haired and blond Jewish friends, one with small pug nose. Are they not Jewish?", wrote.....on sept 21.

Only today VKing had the opportunity to take notion of this question. His answer:

"Would you list them, or leave them listed, in a catagry "Central Africide person", when they would declare they are, and/or would have a very African name and/or would be listed as such by very reliable sources? VKing 21:50, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

You know, jewishness is an ethnicity, like for instance Turkischness, Moroccanness, Italianness, Chineseness and so on are. In principle you can see, which one somebody (mainly) belongs to. It's a biological fact, that cannot be changed, but can be recognised on outward-characteridtics. VKing 01:00, 1 October 2006 (UTC)