Talk:Jerusalem

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NOTE: ARCHIVED TALK ABOUT JERUSALEM AS CAPITAL OF ISRAEL IS FOUND HERE

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[edit] History of Jerusalem

Šachar 'Dawn' and Šalim 'Sunset/Dusk' in Canaanite (Ugaritic) religion they were twin Gods, the first, if not only, pair of gracious gods of peace, the children and cleavers of the sea. They were born of El and Athirat or her female companion. The new family builds a sanctuary in the desert and lives there for eight years. According to Isaiah 14:12, Šachar was the father of Helel or Lucifer, the 'light-bringer', usually taken to mean the morning-star.

Given that during the "Canaanite period, Jerusalem had the name Urušalim, meaning 'the city of peace'" could not his equally have meant "City of Shalim, i.e. the Sunset", and be the site referred to where the sanctuary to peace (The temple of Solomon) was built? Especially since (Hebrew: שְׁלֹמֹה, (Shelomo) Standard Šəlomo Tiberian Šəlōmōh; Arabic: سليمان, Sulayman; all essentially meaning "peace"), and according to Israel Finkelstein's archaeological research, the Solomonic Empire as it was supposed to exist cannot be found. The name Shalim is also found in the names of Assyrian monarchs such as Shalmaneser (Shulmanu-asharidu). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by John D. Croft (talk • contribs) 00:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Capital of Israel

Since Jerusalem is not considered part of, or capital of Israel, except by USA and Israel itself, the first paragraph is misleading. I have tried to include this fact in the text several times, but it was deleted. Obviously this article cannot be considered to be written from a NPOV. --Gerash77 22:04, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, looking at famous Encyclopedia articles on this city, and compare it to the wiki one, makes this POV more clear:

BRITANNICA © :

Jerusalem Hebrew Jerushalayim, Arabic Bayt al-Muqaddas or Al-Quds ancient city of the Middle East that since 1967 has been wholly in the possession of Israel. In 1949 the city was proclaimed its capital by Israel. Jerusalem plays a central role in the spiritual and emotional perspective of the three major monotheistic religions. For Jews throughout the world, it is the focus of age-old yearnings, a living proof ofancient grandeur and independence and a centre of national renaissance;for Christians, it is the scene of their Saviour's agony and triumph; for Muslims, it is the goal of the Prophet Muhammad's mystic night journey and the site of one ofIslam's most sacred shrines. For all three faiths it is a centre of pilgrimage—the Holy City, the earthly prototype of the heavenly Jerusalem.

ENCARTA © :

Jerusalem (Hebrew Yerushalayim; Arabic Al Quds), city lying at the intersection of Israel and the West Bank, located between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea, about 50 km (about 30 mi) southeast of the Israeli city of Tel Aviv-Yafo. Jerusalem is composed of two distinct sections: West Jerusalem and East Jerusalem. West Jerusalem, which is inhabited almost entirely by Jews, has been part of Israel since Israel was established in 1948. East Jerusalem, which has a large Palestinian Arab population and recently constructed Jewish areas, was held by Jordan between 1949 and the Six-Day War of 1967. During the war, East Jerusalem was captured by Israel, which has administered it since. Israel claims that Jerusalem is its capital, but Palestinians dispute the claim and the United Nations has not recognized it as such. Jews, Christians, and Muslims consider Jerusalem a holy city, and it contains sites sacred to all three religions.

--Gerash77 22:16, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

We've had this discussion too many times, and it always amounts to this:

1. Jerusalem is the official capital of Israel, by law.
2. Jerusalem serves as capital for the citizens of Israel, holding the parliament, government offices, supreme court, official quarters of the PM and president, etc.

These facts make it capital, and the status of a city as capital has nothing to do with international recognition. okedem 07:44, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Regardless, the tag doesn't belong in the top because of one issue like explained in my revert reason. Cheers. Amoruso 09:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Regardless 2, the Britannica reference is a pretty bad one for your argument because it says : "in 1949 the city was proclaimed its capital by Israel" and doesn't say it's disputed, so I'm not sure what you were getting at. It even says that whole Jerusalem is in possession of Israel (!) if you don't know, possession implies legality in law, it doesn't say occupation. I think this wikipedia article is much more WP:NPOV or WP:POV AGAINST Israel as you can see in the section Jerusalem#Jerusalem as the capital of Israel which is basically an attack on Israel so I'm not sure what bothered you in terms of POV actually. Amoruso 09:24, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Possession implies legality in law... Which law are you talking about? FrancescoMazzucotelli 15:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The argument about how to handle the "capital" issue is one of longest running in all of Wikipedia and it got real boring round about 3 years ago. Anyway, I just want to point out that the Britannica wording shows that they have the same problem and chose their words real carefully to avoid saying either that Jerusalem is sovereign Israel or not, or whether it is the capital or not. Btw, it is true that I possess the things I own, but the word "possession" certainly does not imply ownership. See possession of stolen goods. --Zero^talk 11:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Let's be clear here: the sovereignty of Jerusalem is what's disputed, not Israel's right to establish a capital on its sovereign soil. The legal status of Jerusalem is very complex, but I think the correct way to think of it is that Israel has established its capital in Jerusalem, but the international community does not universally accept Israel's sovereignty over parts of Jerusalem in which governmental offices are established. If the international community disputes Israel's right to determine where its capital should be, we are dealing with discrimination that is probably without parallel in human history. --Leifern 19:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

"...sovereignty over parts of Jerusalem in which governmental offices are established" - The governmental offices, the parliament, the supreme court, etc., are all located in West Jerusalem, which has been under Israel control since 1948/9. That part of Jerusalem is just as Israeli as any other part of the country, in its 1967 borders. So there's no point in arguing over "parts of Jerusalem". okedem 20:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, okedem, you actually edit-conflicted me out from asking that question, because what you say is what I have understood from past discussions. The structures that make Jerusalem the capital have always been in Israel. As I also understand, it is the Israeli declaration that the "complete and undivided Jerusalem" is its capital that the UN and most nations cited in their various protests. So unless one believes that all of Jerusalem was "stolen" by Israel, there is no allegation that Israel's capital is on stolen land. The protest is against Israel's occupation and later annexation of eastern Jerusalem, having nothing to do with where the capital is actually located. It is all symbolic and meaningless. 6SJ7 21:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Leifern is correct in that the issue is sovereignty. The dispute about the capital would immediately vanish if Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem was confirmed by the international community. The counter-argument about West versus East Jerusalem doesn't work for several reasons. A legal reason is that the UN has never accepted Israeli sovereignty over any part of Jerusalem (the SC resolutions denouncing the annexation of West Jerusalem were never repealed). That's why no nations agreed to treat Jerusalem as the capital from 1948 to 1967. A more important reason today is that Israel is adamant that the whole of Jerusalem is the capital. This means that other nations cannot accept the Israeli declaration without in effect acceding to the annexation of East Jerusalem. That's why they don't accept it. If Israel announced tomorrow that only West Jerusalem was the capital, probably lots of nations would accept it. That won't happen though. --Zero^talk 09:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

The international recognition is irrelevant. Jerusalem is Israel's capital, whether other nations accept it or not. That's just the fact of the matter. The sovereignty issue is dealt with in the lead itself, and that's why the "neutrality" tag should be removed.

The UN's issue with west Jerusalem stems from the partition plan of 1947, which called for the internationalization of Jerusalem. Unfortunately, that plan was rejected by the Arab leadership, and so was not implemented. Other parts of the country, like some of the Galilee, were supposed to be a part of the Arab state, however, those are internationally recognized as legally as part of Israel. The partition plan is now long defunct, and so is the internationalization idea.

And as a city, it's the largest in Israel - it has the most residents, and is under complete Israeli control. okedem 18:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I see it now. Thats exactly what it is, all these goyims attacking Israel on their biased media.--Gerash77 04:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

"Goyims"? You didn't even bother to learn some Hebrew grammar before using a Jewish language to attack the Jews. Beit Or 08:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Largest and most populous city in Israel

Even if we accept the claim over "capital of Israel", the article claims it is the "largest city of Israel", with the population including the occupied territories. Unless there is a consensus on this, the sentence will remain disputed, and any removal of the tag is vandalism and will be reverted.--Gerash77 22:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

"And as a city, it's the largest in Israel - it has the most residents, and is under complete Israeli control. " - Okedem

No, the fact that it is occupied by Israel, doesn't make it the largest city in Israel. Israel also occupies many cities in the west bank, but that doesn't mean they are cities of Israel. You are trying so hard to show that your statement is neutral, but it is not logical anyway you look at it.--Gerash77 19:40, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

The cities is the west bank aren't under Israeli law, aren't filled with Israeli citizens, and aren't governed by Israeli municipal authorities. I know Jerusalem has a special status, but it's still an Israeli city, even if you (or anyone else) thinks it shouldn't be. okedem 20:24, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Since, "me and anyone else" including United Nations say otherwise, it is obviously not an statement without dispute. Hence the tag should remain. I understand this is an emotional issue for Jews, which is why I think its better to keep the sentence, and not to go for an edit war. Nevertheless, the least we could say is that it is a disputed statement, (if not totally false).--Gerash77 20:45, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

The status of Jerusalem is dealt with in the lead. The tag needs to go. okedem 21:05, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

One more time: The tagged sentence is not neutral.--Gerash77 21:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll make it clearer - the "neutrality" tag is a terrible thing to use - it adds no data for the reader, only confuses him:

a. The first part of the sentence states that its Israel's capital. There's no neutrality issue here, it is the capital.

b. The second part says it's the largest. If you think that's not neutral, suggest ways to fix it. Don't use the tag, it doesn't help anyone!

Anyway, sometimes we have to use statements that may seem less than ideal. That's reality. That's also why we can address these issues in another sentence, as the lead does, which solves the NPOV issue. okedem 21:29, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

You could write "Jerusalem is Israel's seat of government and its proclaimed capital. It is cosidered the largest city in Israel, though Israel's sovereignty over the city is disputed." This is a pretty accurate description of the current situation in the city. It is worth while to point out that En-Wikipedia uses terms like "Republic of China" rather than "Chinese Taipei" and "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" rather than "Turkish occupation in northern Cyprus", so apparently we do value self-proclamation more than we value international resolutions. drork 22:18, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

The fact the Jerusalem is the seat of government of the state of Israel is not disputed; nor is that fact that it is the proclaimed capital. Only the legitmacy of its sovereignty is disputed. As other have pointed out, why can't we just use language that indiciates such? "The proclaimed capital and seat of government is in Jerusalem; however, Israel's sovereignty over Eastern Jerusalem is not internationally recognized." Anything along those lines should resolve most of the problem, though the exact language will need tweaking.Zalotiye 23:58, 14 November 2006 (UTC) And for Gerash77, goyim is already plural. The singular is goy; goyim is plural.

Long ago it was decided not to include the sovereignty issue of Jerusalem into the first paragraph. In fact, now that I've rechecked the history of the article, it seems the capital/largest city issue was unilaterally added to the article by User:Amoruso in early September.

Before:

Jerusalem ([[Hebrew language|Hebrew]]: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם (help·info), Yerushaláyim or Yerushalaim; Greek: Ιεροσόλυμα, Ierosólyma or Ιερουσαλήμ, Ierousalēm; Latin: Hierosolyma; Arabic: القُدس (help·info), al-Quds; official Arabic in Israel: أورشليم القدس, Urshalim-Al-Quds) is an ancient Middle Eastern city on the watershed between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea at an elevation of 650-840 metres (about 2000-2500 feet). Jerusalem is Israel's official capital, although Israel's sovereignty over Jerusalem is not widely recognised by the international community (see Positions on Jerusalem).

After his/her edits, the second sentence in the paragraph became grammatically incorrect, which to this date remains so! Hence, I think a reversion of the first paragraph will solve the issue. --Gerash77 01:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it was better worded and more neutral before. Let's put it back. --Zero^talk 02:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

What does unilaterly added mean  ? the changes were largely accepted by many users at the time Amoruso 07:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

You have managed to do it again. Wait for a consensus before going to an edit war. If you read your edits for late August and early September, you will see that you only succeeded to add the changes after persistent edit war. Even now that you have managed to keep the statement there, you can't accept that there is a dispute regarding to the statement. I will keep an eye on the article from now on, please stop your vandalism.--Gerash77 23:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Please don't accuse others of bad faith or vandalism when it's essentially the only thing you've contributed to this article. If you wanted to maintain some credibility, you would atleast have contributed to the article in a positive way like I and the other users have done instead of rv'ing and generic tags for your POV purposes. You obviously have no knowledge or interest of Jerusalem and your only motive seems to be to remove any mention of "capital" in Jerusalem article. That's disruptive behaviour and you should leave the article to those people knowledgable or interested about Jerusalem. This article is not a place to politically war edit like you've done. You'd notice that in contrast to you I also made considerable actual non political edits to this article and therefore it's you who is suspiciouslly acting of bad faith. Please refer to articles in your actual interest and expertise. Amoruso 09:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)