Talk:Jean Chrétien

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Contents

[edit] Paganism?

There's a very briref section stating that he was found practicing 'pagans' which I assume should be paganism. Is there anything to back this claim up? I'm going to get rid of that section until someone can provide some evidence, or elaborate.

I think that was just vandalism. --JGGardiner 03:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. That'd be all over the papers if it was true. --Marysunshine 03:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Assassination attempt???? No, Not really.

Didn't the guy just break in to see if he could? Really not an assassination attempt. The suspect was outside the PM's bedroom door for awhile apparently. He could have killed him if he really had intended to, but I don't think he did.

He was deranged, had a knife, and the Chretiens had to lock the door closed before security came. I'd think it was an assanation attempt.Habsfannova 05:39, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

There was no attempt on Chretien's life, hence it was not an assassination attempt. Fishhead64 02:31, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Um, so what else would we call a knife yielding man outside the Prime Minister's bedroom? Habsfannova - t 04:04, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
It seems quite obvious to me that there was a real danger to the life of the Rt. Hon. Jean Chrétien; to imply that this event was anything less than an assassination attempt would be untrue and inaccurate, in my opinion. If someone was outside the Prime Minister's bedroom with a knife, under suspicious circumstances necessitating a need to have security be contacted, then I would think it to be an assassination attempt, plain and simple. FiveParadox 03:27, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it really deserves its own section, though, so I'll just move it in to the regular one.Habsfannova|t 16:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unclear writing about Trudeau

"The death of Pierre Trudeau helped Chretien win re-election in 2000. It made one point clear--He wouldn't have been prime minister if it had not been for Trudeau."

This line doesn't make any sense. Cogent 21:41, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Stroke?

When did he suffer the stroke? AxelBoldt 19:54 Aug 27, 2002 (PDT)

Yes, and are you sure it was a stroke? I thought it was polio. - user:Montrealais

Google doesn't give anything on "Chretien stroke", but searching on polio I found http://www.who2.com/jeanchretien.html and http://www.cnn.com/resources/newsmakers/world/namerica/chretien.html . I'll change it. AxelBoldt 10:44 Aug 28, 2002 (PDT)

I thought it was frostbite as a child...I'll look into it more a bit later. Basil Fawlty 16:49 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)

There are some hits on Google from "frostbite Jean Chretien":

"In February of 1946, young Jean Chrétien, affectionately known as "Ti Jean," or Little John, suffered severe frostbite that left him paralyzed on one side of his face. In Lawrence Martin's biography of the Prime Minister, Mr. Chrétien's brothers and sisters recall that the almost 12-year-old boy was walking through the icy wind to his sister's wedding and has been paralyzed ever since."

Another one:

"When Jean was 12 years old, he suffered severe frostbite to his face. He had walked to church from his brother's house on one of the coldest days of the year. The strong winds struck the left side of his face the hardest and by the time he arrived at church his cheek was completely numb. No one realized the severity of Jean's frostbite at the time. It wasn't until several months later that a deformity began to appear in the area that had been hit by the cold. It looked as if Jean's mouth had shifted sideways. Apparently, the frostbite had damaged a facial nerve causing permanent muscle paralysis. While the abnormality didn't cause any physical pain, it was very distressing for a boy entering his teen years."

Then of course there are Axel's links about polio:

"A childhood case of polio left Chretien deaf in his right ear and with a slightly twisted mouth." (from who2)

"Infantile paralysis distorted his mouth and left him deaf in right ear." (from CNN)

I think the first two sources sound much more credible. More detail is given, and the stories seem to line up. And the very first source mentions that this is in Jean Chretien's biography. The polio sources are very brief, and one of them is from CNN. Therefore, I'll change it to frostbite.

dave 17:42 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I suppose I should have mentioned this here before changing it...but the paralysis is because of Bell's palsy, not frostbite.Adam Bishop 17:57 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I'm astonished at the amount of misinformation out there. And according to one of the sources above, he biography says it was frostbite? Adam, how can you confirm that it is Palsy? Besides the fact that there are lots of google hits. Who's to say that those sources aren't wrong either? dave 21:23 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Actually, I'm convinced from only sparse information on the Internet that the frostbite caused his case of Bell's palsy. It sounds to me that Bell's Palsy is just a term to describe the symptom of partial face paralysis and drooping, and not the specific cause. Also, I read somewhere that he was born deaf in one ear, and that it was not caused by the paralysis/frostbite. He is apparently also dyslexic. http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030409.comartin0409/BNStory dave 21:31 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)
On the basis of a Google search I guess I can't confirm that it's Bell's palsy...I'd never heard the frostbite info until I read it here, and I also thought Bell's palsy was genetic. But I don't know :) Adam Bishop 21:35 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)
So, apparently Bell's palsy isn't genetic, and since it is caused by trauma to the nerve, I guess it's reasonably that frostbite caused it. Now I would think that it should mention something like "Bell's palsy caused by frostbite," not just one or the other. (Assuming that it's Bell's palsy, but that's all I've ever heard it described as, speaking for myself) Adam Bishop 21:44 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Yeah, the one page said that he got Bell's Palsy when he was a boy. It all kind of fits together I guess... The only one that doesn't fit is the Polio stuff, which clearly can be ruled out. For now, we can put Bell's Palsy caused by frostbite until we find out otherwise, because for now at least, it seems reasonable. dave 21:58 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)
The CBC's (Canadian broadcasting corporation) official biography states that he was born deaf in one ear and that eventually distorted his lip. This biography is very big and very official it contains interviews with Jean himself and other world leaders. If any source is correct I would think it would be this one.

[edit] Article title

Question here? As far as I can see, in English, his surname is usually anglicised to Chretien (without an accent). Yet this article is Jean Chrétien with the anglicised version as a redirect. Could somebody give me some clarification? (Actually, my real reason for asking is because I'm about to write an article for somebody else, and am wondering whether the page title ought to include accented characters or not.) - Cafemusique 19:08 23 May 2003 (UTC)

To the extent that accented characters are not used, it's probably because they are a hassle to produce - I don't think it could be argued that "Chretien" is the English spelling of Chrétien, the way that the accent is (usually) omitted in English on "Montreal" and "Quebec". - Montréalais
OK...So how would I link to a new page for somebody with an accented name, would I just use the é construction, for example, or is there some other technique I need to use? - Cafemusique

The usual way is [[Jean Chrétien|Jean Chrétien]]. - Montréalais

Someone posted Ironically, Chrétien speaks neither of the official Canadian languages. It is possibly vandalism (and was removed), but some Canadians may think it is true as some have called his English speaking ability "coarse" and his French "regional". This also brings up the historical question of official languages v. vernacular languages which was an issue during the Trudeau years. Federalists wanted to get everyone in Quebec to speak International French, of the L'Académie française rather than the Québécois French vernacular so that Canada could have standardized French; Quebec separatists saw this as a way to dilute Quebec's distinct society. — Alex756 22:30, 5 Sep 2003 (UTC)

More should be said about Chretien's achievements economically. Colipon 04:23, 7 Nov 2003 (UTC)

What achievements? dave 04:17, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Say, eliminating the deficit under his government, to name one... Colipon 02:41, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)
The deficit was eliminated by having: high taxes, and economic/stock market boom in the late 1990s, and sizable cuts to spending. Yes he could be commended for all the cutting they did...but they got lucky. It could be argued that anyone in power during that period could have eliminated the deficit. There's another thing I didn't mention, because I'm not sure about. Did the overall debt of the provinces increase or decrease over the same period? This would be a telling indication of the feds success at debt/deficit reduction. I always hear talk about "reduction of transfers to the provinces for health care", so perhaps during the same period the feds at the provinces expense? dave 18:34, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

In the article it says: "Chrétien has been attacked in the media for failing to live up to certain election promises, such as eliminating the Goods and Services Tax (GST) and scaling back Canada's participation in NAFTA." Today I read in the National Post that he has been critisized for now being a supporter of free trade, while he and his government was vehemently against it during the Mulroney years. dave 04:17, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Alright, I don't want to get into an edit war over this, but what User:JackLynch is adding about "talking out of the side of his mouth" is either going to have to be worded much differently, or removed entirely (as I did before). Right now it seems pretty juvenile. Adam Bishop 03:37, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

[edit] no edit war

thats not what I'm about at all. have you seen my comments on your talk page? maybe I should move them here or something. JackLynch

[edit] moved

Jean Chrétien

The fact that he talks out of the side of his mouth is extremely comical, but I can accept that their might be a more professional way to express the concept. I am thinking of saying something along the lines of "His tendency to talk out of the side of his mouth, while medically caused, can be seen as indicative of his overall political persona." JackLynch


I don't agree

When reading the entry for mr. cretien, I found that it was lacking in any real insight into his nature and legacy, his persona. What immediately sprang to mind was the dry and unrevealing mention of his intruiging malady. I read at length what I found on the discussion page, and saw that while there was confusion as to the nature of the condition, there was a complete lack of mention of what impression he makes, and how this is imvolved. JackLynch


I have seen those already...but it still seems that you want to say he both figuratively and literally talks out of the side of his mouth. I suppose you could mention his opponents have said that about him, and how Kim Campbell used it, but I don't think you can just imply that he is a shifty politician. Adam Bishop 03:48, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)
The Toronto Star did express that his folksyness makes people expect less of him, or something along that line, supposedly hides his political genius, but I doubt his disability would count as part of this folksyness... - user:zanimum
I wasn't refering to "folksiness" however, and I'm not too sure how "talking out of the side" of ones mouth would add or take away from, ones "folksiness". As a matter of fact, I think it would take away from it, as it gives the impression that one is being disingenuous, not a "folksy" quality, in my mind. JackLynch
Look, I don't know, I don't think this is even relevant to the article, any of it. - user:zanimum
I've never even heard of the expression "talking out of the side of your mouth". Are you sure you guys don't really mean, "Talking out of both sides of your mouth"? In Chretien's case there is a subtle irony because of his affliction.

[edit] I do mean to say that

I really do. And its not just his opponents, or MS. Campbell. I have a few canadian friends, and they all support him. They also relate his political shiftiness to the common "side of the mouth" saying about politicians. I think anyone who supports, is opposed to, or even clearly understand Mr.. Chrétien will agree that there is a quality of shiftiness there, taking a stand against something, but making no discernable action regarding it, thereby ensuring the opposite. IMO, which isn't relevant, he is a fine president. This has nothing to do w making him look bad, but rather showing him as he TRUELY is. JackLynch

What are you talking about? Maybe he's shifty, but what are you talking about "common side of the mouth saying about politicians". I don't see the point you are trying to make about him. It's great that you think he was a fine president, I would have thought worse of you if you thought he was a fine prime minister. dave 23:07, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

ok, thats acceptable to me. I don't like the "his opponents" part, but good enough. JackLynch

[edit] December 12

It's not "widely speculated", he announced he would step down on December 12, did he not? I agree that it is premature to say for certain that Paul Martin is the next Prime Minister because it's not technically true at the moment, but I don't think December 12 is speculation. Adam Bishop 19:49, 21 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that I haven't yet seen an article that included an actual quote by Chrétien that he was stepping down on a specific date. I think everything I've seen has been either a vauge referance to "this winter" or a quote by an "insider". If you can find an actual press release or statement by Chrétien please post a link to it here and feel free to change the page - Halthecomputer 00:02, Nov 22, 2003 (UTC)


I've found a number of sources that quote him thinking about stepping down in "mid-december" but I've yet to find a substantiated statment that it will be the 12th - Halthecomputer 00:11, Nov 22, 2003 (UTC)
Ok...I've seen December 12 a lot lately so I just assumed it was official :) Adam Bishop 00:12, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Never mind, I take it back. After a lot of digging I found a rather recent article I must have missed. Martin to be new prime minister Dec. 12 as Chretien announces departure I have changed the main page accordingly. - Halthecomputer 00:16, Nov 22, 2003 (UTC)

This article is the most toatally biased and leftist glorification of Chrétien I have ever read. This article DESPERATELY needs NPOVing RIGHT NOW. I bet the writers are a bunch of Communists or idiot socialists from Europe. I'm going to check old versions to see if there was any POV censorship. If not, I'm rewriting it. USA NUMBER 1!

Just as I suspected. I went through the page history and discovered that there was an effort to suppress any attempts to balance the overt leftist slant. This user by the name of JoeM wrote some excellent, objective, and fact-filled content and hard-hitting analysis that kept on getting removed for no reason. I'm going to restore it to balance the leftist POV slant. USA NUMBER 1!

Hi, JoeM. Aren't you still hard-banned? --MIRV 06:49, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Yep, he still is. A sysop banned his new identity. WhisperToMe 06:58, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

[edit] He did NOT have a stroke.

If you read Martin Lawrence's book "The Will To Win" you will see that Mr.Chretien did NOT have a stroke. When he was born, half of his face was paralyzed, leaving him deaf in one ear. There was no stroke, or polio. and certinaly, no frost bite. You ought to read his biography.

Somebody reverted me for saying there was dispute about his disability. Are their any verifiability citations? I havn't read the book, so I'm tempted to believe the above... Sam Spade 04:29, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Where on earth do you get the idea that there's any dispute over this story? Where did you get the idea that it's "not well-known or commonly agreed to"? Here are the references I turned up with thirty seconds of searching, all of which state he has Bell's palsy : CBC, BBC, CNN, Globe and Mail, and more CNN. With these, and the book cited above, I would say that the burden of proof is on you to provide some citations for your theory, rather than the other way around. --67.71.78.53 12:36, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
. . . or I could have just referred you to the debate further up the page, which cited many of the same references. But anyway, there's no dispute (except by Sam Spade) that his facial paralysis was caused by Bell's Palsy; the cause of that condition is the only thing that's unclear. (And no, it couldn't be stroke, because Bell's palsy is caused by damage to one specific facial nerve, not the central nervous system.)

what are you talking about? I don't dispute, heck I don't even care how it happened. I am simply suggesting that we agree amongst ourselves before we say its one way or the other in the article. Anyways, you canadians can mess about on this one, I'm not even interested enough to research it. The only point I ever had was that we should agree on the talk page before suggesting one theory, frostbite, over another. Sam Spade 19:24, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Fighting to keep greater obscurity in place is a poor way to produce clarity. --67.71.78.53 02:13, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Thats not fighting, thats one edit, and preventing innaccuracy is more important than obscurity. Relax yourself, geez. I got less of a rise out of people when I pointed out how humorous his disorder was a few months ago. Sam Spade 02:45, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Oldest Surviving PM?

No, this is incorrect -- John Turner was born in 1929.

[edit] Bad relations with the USA -- whose fault ?

When the article talks about bad relations it talks about it as if all the fault for those bad relations was the responsibility of Chretien. It does not assign any fault to George W. Bush. President Bush never made a state visit to Canada during Chretien's term. He never invited Chretien to his Crawford Texas ranch. He appointed the rudest ambassador in our history. Ambassador Paul Celluci subjected Canadians to constant criticism. He thanked dozens of nations for their support following 911, but did not thank Canada, the only country that had provided any meaningful, short-term, concrete help.

The article also says: "He also considers Bush a good friend." I am highly skeptical of this assertion. Bush demonstrated over and over again that he neither respected or liked Chretien. Chretien could not count on Bush returning his phone calls. -- Geo Swan 01:10, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

In fact, Celluci was very vocal in thanking Canada for its support after 9/11. I have no idea where you get your facts from. Bottom line, just because something you read is anti-American does not make it true. 24.72.36.121 08:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
The above comment was written by me. I forgot to sign in. Shanebratt 08:18, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Needs to have section pretaining to corruption/sponsorship scandal.

In order for the article to be fair.

It's already there. HistoryBA 14:45, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Chretien And Protestors

Why isn't there something about the pepper spraying of actvists in Vancouver in 1997 at the OPEC summit and Chretien's famous "Me I like pepper on my plate" comment. Also put in something about Chretien strangling the protestor in Hull, Quebec. --Fredmaack 01:04, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea. Why don't you take a stab at it? HistoryBA 01:19, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I still can't believe the APEC summit isn't mentioned when Chretien made the now famous "Me, I like pepper on my plate" gaff in response to protestors being pepper sprayed. I might have to add it. --69.196.150.118 04:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ministerial Post

According to the text of the article, he was Minister of Energy, Mines, and Resources in the 2nd Trudeau government, which I seem to recall reading something about. However, Wikipedia's list of Canadian Ministers of Energy, Mines, and Resources doesn't include him.

The list had a goof in it—the environment ministers of the 2nd Trudeau ministry were subbed in rather than the energy ministers. This of course had the truly bizarre implication of Marc Lalonde being missing from the energy ministers list. (Clearly, the NEP never happened :)). Good catch. The Tom 16:44, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chretien a factor in the Quebec Provincial Election?

The article states that Chretien has been credited as factor in getting the provinicial Quebec Liberals elected in 2003. Is this really verifiable? I don't think the election had much to do with his popularity in Quebec (or lack thereof) and more voter fatigue with the PQ. I'd erase this from the article.


[edit] Free use vs Fair Use images

The subject of copyrighted vs. Fair Use images has been discussed recently at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Stephen_Harper#We_should_remove_the_unfree_image

I'm therefore helping the project out by replacing the fair use, copyrighted image here with a free use image. Michael Dorosh 17:00, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

While it is great that you are participating in unfree image cleanup, which definitely needing doing here, I'm not sure that every photo displayed at whitehouse.gov is public domain (perhaps it is, but I cannot easily find anything to that effect), and we do already have a number of images at commons:Category:Jean Chretien that could be used. Jkelly 20:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wellie/Willie

Thanks for the reference for confirming that is was Wellie and not Willie. I reverted it in the past because I thought it was non-sense. WE'll keep it that way now.--JForget 00:26, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How do you pronounce his last name?

I've googled, and sources agree it's hard to pronounce but I couldn't find one that tells me how it's pronounced. TransUtopian 10:51, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Try kret-chee-an. GoodDay 22:30, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

I feel that the picture used in the infobox really really lacks quality. Its super blurry. Does anyone have a better picture? --Midnight Rider 01:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

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