Talk:Jat
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[edit] I Don't Think So
This is one of he most hilarious and dumb unacademic articles I have read so far. Obvioucly written by a nationalistic amateur, without objectivity and is all over the place. omerlives~~
If the above person disagrees he should make some contructive points so we may get closer to the truth.I don't see how the article can be nationalistic since Jats are Indians,Pakistani,British, Canadian ,Hindu,Sikhs,Muslims and so on.This article has many contributors ,all have differing views.(Although I agree some of the historical facts are a bit over the top )
Try to stay objective,not all jats are scythians nor all english saxons.Keep to and look for the facts not fantasy.
yeah well, regardless of nationality all jats originate from one large particular area in south asia. What we do know that like many other castes it is an agraraian. The point is there is no way to know which jat much like which south asian from pakistan or northern india has scythian blood or greek blood or original vedic blood in terms of clear desecnt and lineage. One jat may have as much scythian blood in terms of percentage (this is getting hilarous) as some other random northern south asian. No group in central asia, the caucus and middle east, or ukraine (cept for Ossetes) know if their family name reflects scythian origin. Even though these lands are where the scythinas originated and dwelled in.....much less south asia which did not have any clossal population displacement from scythians except for the same old pattern of invasions from semi nomadic various central asian tribes which continued until 17th century. growup. This article needs to be rewritten with facts about jats and what we know. Not the hilarious fantasies about saraswati, and croats springing from the bosoms of indian rivers and other such nonsense.
^^ save the emo nonsense and stick to genetics
[edit] Jat Race ?
I just like to mention that in the genetics section , I have not stated in any way or form that Jats are a race .They are however an ethnic group eg Race+culture+social history.Of course what we define as race is a separate issue.However people of the same race can be a separate ethnic group eg English and the French.What I am attempting here is to trace the ethnic history of one such group eg the Jats using genetics.It may be the case the genetics of various South Asia groups are the same , however they all have their own separate ethnic history.If you wish to comment about "Jats not being a race" then make such statements in other sections where they mentions terms "Race".Any group which practices some form of isolation, eg caste or marriage practices ,over time these will appear in the genetics.An extreme example is the Kalash whose mtdna is distinctly different from other Pakistani populations,hence giving some indication of their past.
If you wish to gather genetics data from other groups then you are free to begin your own article on wikipedia.I will then add that to the genetics section if relevant.As I have mentioned Jats are made up of clans each having different histories ,within and possibly outside South Asia (as do many other Euroasian groups).
SNP such as R1a ,J2 are they only markers that I know of that have sufficient resolution ,which show clear geographics patterns.It may be the case that other Punjabi groups have similar haplogroups,but until I have data ,I can not comment.
[edit] GENETICS
Talking about "blood" is old fashioned,modern genetics uses various chromosomal markers which do enable one to trace human movements.Ossetes Scythian?,we should not confuse language and culture and genetics.Most turks of turkey are not turkman of central asian,nor christians decended from jews.Even jats belong to various clans each has differing histories.The "facts" are that 50% of punjabis are decended from the same male as 50% of slavs ,originating somewhere between the Volga and the Indus in the last 7000 years (average estimate). Also,the presence of castes and gotras separate south asians into specific groups hence we may be able to make direct links between groups inside and outside south asia.Atlthough I would like to remove the mentions of croats/Ukranian being jats since even if some part of these population did share a common history,we can not say in the modern sense that A is B.
Does anybody Know what haplogroup (15,13,29,22,10,14,12,9,16 ) may belong to.I dont think it belongs to R1a1;but is shared between Jats and Ankara Turks.I guess it may be H,L or R1b.
- A recent update shows a match with Spain and Jat haplotype(15,13,29,22,10,14,12,9,16 ),we know that the Alans settled Spain.However there are many gypsies in Spain, so if this haplotype belongs to haplogroup H it could be a match with the Roma gypsies (Although most gypsy matches with Jats seem to belong to R1a1).Also most of the spanish matches are R1a1.
- Using the Yhrd database Jat sikhs and Jat (haryana) share only two haplotypes, unknown(15,13,29,22,10,14,12,9,16) and R1a1(16,13,30,25,11,13,11,14).These markers account for almost 20% of both groups.It could be these males who put the 'Jat' into the Jat.Almost all (99%) of matches between Jats and other world populations are on R1a1.Jats sikhs seem to have twice as many matches and twice the frequency as haryana Jats ;even though the haplogroup distributions are similar.This may be due to the fact that Jat Sikhs have had more contact with Non-Indian groups;this is not surprising since Jat Sikhs live closer to the borders of India.Interestingly Jat Sikhs share two extra haplotypes (possibly haplogroups J2 or R1b) with Iraq Kurds.The high frequency of matches seem to be with Slavic populations.There are also matches with Germanic groups,but tend to be of low frequency.
- There is a debate on whether Aryans or Indo-Europeans came from within or from outside India.Some genetists say R1a1 is the IE marker others J2;others say there is no link between genetics and language.However Jats have R1a1 and J2 markers yet most of the matches are on R1a1 with Euroasian populations.Hence it is very hard to see why there are very few matches with J2,hence one may assume that R1a1 is not of Indian origin.However J2 is also supposed to originate from outside India ,but recent papers suggest there are hardly any Indian haplotype matches with J2 outside India .In Punjab R1a1(50%),J2(20%).India as a whole R1a1(30%),J2 (12%).
If we are to assume that a group of IE left South Asia ,then we must assume there was very little J2 in South Asia at that time.
Or that J2 has a very fast mutation rate, so that any common haplotypes would have been lost,and that the group who left did not return .If they did return then the mutation rate of J2 was so fast that,in a space of 2000 years,J2 had lost all common hyplotypes with groups left outside south Asia.The fast mutation rate theory of J2 seems very unlikley.
Another possibility is that R1a1 was confined to Punjab/North West and J2 to the South West/Gujarat (Gujarat has possibly the highest diversity of J2 in India ).Then these population mixed after the the movement of R1a1 out of South Asia.(If J2 is Dravidian then mixing of J2 in Punjab with R1a resulted in the Dravidian elements in Sanskrit).This may have occured about 1500 bce since the Indo-aryan language of the Mitanni in Turkey/Syria arrives in the area about 1500 bce ,but seems to lack Dravidian elements.)
The third most common haplotype in Jat Sikhs from Yhrd seems to be J/J2 ,with two matches in Germany and one in Bulgaria (distance 2).
A recent paper has shown that R1a1 is 14,000 years old ,hence the spread fo R1a may have nothing to do with IE/Scythians ,but with a migration after the Ice Age 10,000 yrs ago.However the high diversity of R1a in Eastern Europe and India suggest the migration of this group was rapid.The tribal groups also have a high diversity of R1a ,therefore it is possible that R1a originated from South Asia. (Jaspa). Here's a list for matches with Unknown 15..22,10,14,12..
Ankara, Turkey 1 / 39 Eurasian MP / Altaic MP
Antioquia, Colombia [European] 1 / 407 Eurasian MP / European MP / Other European MP
Barcelona, Spain 1 / 224 Eurasian MP / European MP / Western European MP
Beijing, China 1 / 49 East Asian MP / Sino Tibetan MP
Caucasus [Chechenian] 2 / 19 Eurasian MP / Caucasian MP
Caucasus [Ingushian] 1 / 24 Eurasian MP / Caucasian MP
Central Portugal 1 / 489 Eurasian MP / European MP / Western European MP
East Timor 1 / 138 East Asian MP / Austronesian MP
England-Wales, UK [Indo-Pakistani] 1 / 106 Eurasian MP / Indian MP
Hangzhou, China [Han] 1 / 35 East Asian MP / Sino Tibetan MP
London, UK [Indo-Pakistani] 1 / 250 Eurasian MP / Indian MP
Macedonia 1 / 149 Eurasian MP / European MP / South-Eastern European MP
Malaysia [Han Chinese] 1 / 266 East Asian MP / Sino Tibetan MP
Nagoya, Japan 1 / 207 East Asian MP / Japanese MP
Pakistan [Baloch] 2 / 59 Eurasian MP / Indo Iranian MP
Pakistan [Burusho] 7 / 94 Eurasian MP / Indo Iranian MP
Pakistan [Makrani Negroid] 1 / 33 Eurasian MP / Indo Iranian MP
Pakistan [Pathan] 7 / 93 Eurasian MP / Indo Iranian MP
Pakistan [Sindhi] 2 / 122 Eurasian MP / Indo Iranian MP
Panjab, India [Jat Haryana] 28 / 91 Eurasian MP / Indian MP
Panjab, India [Jat Sikhs] 13 / 108 Eurasian MP / Indian MP
Reunion Island [Malbar] 1 / 103 Admixed MP
Russia [Buryat] 1 / 215 Eurasian MP / Altaic MP
Singapore [Indian] 6 / 182 Eurasian MP / Indian MP
Sweden 1 / 405 Eurasian MP / European MP / Western European MP
What this marker is still dont't Know ,it could be R1 which is ancestral to R1a.Although the long allele at DS392 (14) is also suggestive of haplogroups Q ,P and L.
CAN ANYONE HELP ME GET SIMILAR DATA ON BhumiharS? PLEASE REPLY HERE ONLY. I WILL COME AND READ THE REPLY HERE. PLEASE TELL ME WHERE COULD I GET SIMILAR INFO. HAPMAP?
[edit] Genetics Update
Given that L is common in South Asia ,I would conclude this haplogroup is L.Therefore the two most common haplogroups in Jats are L and R1a1.
On Ysearch all the Indian L have Ds19=14 where as Jats have DS19=15.Ysearch gives Ds19=15 for one sample in Austria and one in Pakistan.Therefore the L that Jats have is of Pakistani origin.I've got my hands on data from this paper [1]and it seems Jat L is L3,the most common L found in Pakistan.Hence the most common male haplogroups in Jats it seems is L3,R1a1,J2.
It would be interesing to see if the L in Central Asia is L3.
Note L originates somewhere between India and the southern Caucaus,J2 from Eastern Turkey and R1a somewhere Between India and Eastern Europe. R1a I think expanded from Eastern Iran (possibly arriving from India during the Ice Age), since female Iranian contribution to India is recognised (eg H,J mtdna etc), but in Eastern Europe it would be very difficult to distinguish from Eastern European and Iranian mtdna ,except maybe Iranian U7 which is present in Eastern Europe at low frequencies. This would explain the wide spread of certain R1a1 haplotypes but the absence of European haplogroups in India and Indian haplogroups in Europe.There is some Indian mtdna (M) in Iran (5%) and also Indian specific female R lineages,probably arriving during the Ice Age with the original R1a1.
On Yhrd jats have matches with Bhutan on L and R1a1 but it seems not on J2.Could this imply that J2 is the most recent addition to the Jat male population?.Also on Yhrd jats have mayches with Uigurs (Tarim Basin,R1a1)and South Indias (again R1a1).It seems the spread of R1a1 in Jats has come from/spread to over a far greater area than L or J2.Jats L seems to have been confined to the Med/South Asia and J2 (from Y search) to the Middle East (Kurds) and Europe.Interestingly ,male haplogroups R2 ,which is most likely of South asian origin,is found in central asia, the Caucaus and in Kurds and Iranians.R2 accounts for about 8% of Punjabis.
I think we should take Yhrd data with a pinch of salt since both samples are from the same geographic area, hence the data could represent a small number of clans,hence it may not be representative of jats in general.Geography probably plays a big part;however at least Yhrd is a start, until someone does a detailed study of NW India.
Mtdna
'Our findings reveal that the Brahmins and Jat Sikhs may have been founded by a small group of female lineages..'
From "Genomic diversities and affinities among four endogamous groups of Punjab (India) based on autosomal and mitochondrial DNA polymorphisms" ,see links. 40 % on the mtdna is of mediterranean origin ,in nomadic societies acquired females would have been transported back from where the Nomads came (eg the western European mtdna in Mongols).
R1a1 and Jats
I've been using yhrd.org again and from this database it is obvious that many Iranian speaking populations have very few if any matches with Jats ,except Kurds.Yet there are lots of Jat R1a1 matches with European populations, and no matches between European populations and Iranian speaking populations.Therefore the evidence suggests that R1a1 that is present in Jats populated euro-asia, but that found in Iranian speaking people did not.Also given the high diversity of R1a1 in Pakistan and India ,this suggests to me that R1a1 originates from SW or South Asia or even Siberia ?,but not as far west as Europe/Ukraine.However, given what seems to be the absence of haplogroup L in Eastern/Northern Europe, the spread of R1a1 occured before the introduction of L in Jats,or that L represented elite males who stayed put,and R1a males had to migrate.The origin of is uncertain ,it originates somewhere between Southern India and the the Caucasus.
R1a1 and Ukraine
I've done another comparison using Yhrd ,and I've read oppenheimers book on the history of the British people.It seems that the high frequency R1a in jats may be due to a secondary migration from the Ukraine.R1a seems to have originated in south Asia,some settled in the Ukraine and then expanded across Euroasia quite recently.The most frequent haplotype is 16,25,11,11,13.However it is also possible that the secondary migration was from the Punjab into the Ukraine,some of the P haplogroup in Ukraine may be R2.Ukraine has also J2 like Punjabis,however there is a lack of L and H in the Ukraine and the lack of 'I' in the Punjab.So one could assume this secondary expansion occurred somewhere between the Punjab and the Ukraine.However the presence of Jat R1a in Southern Indians questions the idea that the secondary expansion occurred from the Ukraine.Therefore it seems that it is halogroups L and H that are intrusive to the Punjab,Indo-aryan markers ?,eg Indo-aryan migration from and within India.
Haplogoup L and Jats
Haplogroup L seems to have spread along the Med ,Southern and North India.It could be Dravidian and may have spread agriculture (L3 ?).
J2 and Jats
A recent paper has shown that Iran has J2's which have not been found in other areas (Turkey),I am questioning if J2 did originate from Turkey.Interestingly the Punjab and Iran males consist mainly of J2(J2a and J2b) and R ,about >50%.A more easterly origin of J2 would explain the absence of E and I in India.In fact I would not be surprised of J2 originated near the Indus or Hindu Hush.
