Talk:JAS 39 Gripen

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Contents 1 Copyrighted text 2 Range 3 NPOV 4 Jakt Attack Spaning? 5 AESA 6 BAE Systems involvement 7 a hyphen between JAS and 39? 8 Requested move 8.1 Survey 8.2 Discussion 9 Crashes removed 10 ETPS usage 11 Photo request 12 There should be some more information included.

[edit] Copyrighted text

Some text of this article is from http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/gripen/ and http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/gripen/39altern/altdesigns.html. It was posted by 82.182.143.16 in this edit. I have e-mailed the author to verify that the text was uploaded by him or with his permission. Here's the reply I got:

From:      Urban Fredriksson <e-mail omitted>
To:        [[User talk:Lupo|Lupo]]'s e-mail address elided
Subject:   Re: Your Saab Gripen text on Wikipedia
Date sent: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:35:38 +0200 (MET DST)

> Could you please deny or confirm that
> 1) You are the copyright holder of this text

Yes, I wrote the original text years ago.

> 2) the text is posted to Wikipedia with your permission, and

No, I didn't know about it.
But I probably would have allowed it if asked.

> 3) that you authorize the re-licensing of this text under the
>    GNU Free Documentation License, which allows anybody to edit
>    and re-distribute this text, even for commercial purposes?

Since it's not the whole web document but only part of it,
the answer to this question is "yes".

Best regards
-- 
 Urban Fredriksson

Thank you, Urban. Lupo 08:09, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Range

I noticed on a number of the other aircraft pages that ferry range is indicated. If so, is the 800km specified in this article the combat range and would it be wise to include the ferry range of 3000km on Urban Fredriksson's website? Edward Sandstig 18:40, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

800km for a modern fighter seems awfully short. But since its of swedish design and original intention, its probably likely thats how far the aircraft can go with the fuel just on its own. The ferry range of 3000km could be achieved with drop tanks or inflight refueling probably. Jak722 15:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

Stop me if I'm wrong, but this article strikes me as being a bit of a sales pitch for the Gripen. Is their anyway of cleaning it up?

ManicParroT 22:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Yup, it's called the "Edit" button at the top of the page. - Emt147 ^Burninate! 23:09, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Be more specific. What makes the article feel like a sales pitch? I don't see any of the other fighter aircraft articles mention crashes...
Check the articles on the F-16 and F-15 for reference. Edward Sandstig 20:00, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jakt Attack Spaning?

Shouldn't the word for "attack" be in Swedish (anfall, IIRC)? 84.231.99.112 06:29, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

No. The swedish word used for "attack aircraft" is indeed "attack-flygplan", not "anfalls-flygplan" ("flygplan" = aircraft). --J-Star 09:42, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] AESA

Does the Gripen have an AESA radar or is this still under development? If it does, it ought to be mentioned. It's quite notable. Joffeloff 17:54, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know th Gripen does not currently have an AESA radar. --J-Star 07:16, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] BAE Systems involvement

Were not BAE Systems involved in the development of this plane? I am positive I saw some BAE promotional material to this effect. 86.17.246.75 10:50, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah ive seen something like that too. Ive read on an aircraft recognition handbook about fighters that BAE had some commercial marketing involvement with Saab and the Gripen.Jak722 15:04, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

According to http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/gripen/ BAe is supplying the main landing gear unit, wing attachment unit, and have been involved in the development of the IHMD together with Saab Aerospace and Denel Cumulus. BAE Astronics have produced the fly-by-wire system together with Lockheed Martin. Gripen International is a joint venture between Saab and BAe intended to market Gripen. /Bengt

Note:
BAe = British Aerospace
BAE = BAE Systems
Sorry for splitting hairs.Mark83 20:29, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] a hyphen between JAS and 39?

Current pagename JAS"-"39 seems odd to me... isn't it? I feel: Saab 39, Saab Gripen, Saab 39 Gripen, JAS 39, or JAS 39 Gripen, are all acceptable but there shouldn't be any hyphens. See, for instance, sv:lista över Försvarsmaktens flygplan and isn't it obvious to use the space for flygvapnet designations? --marsian 15:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Yep will request a move. --Edward Sandstig 19:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Edward for your starting the survey! --marsian 02:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

• some of the designations on the page I present (swedish air force museum page), such as Sk 60 perhaps should strictly be SK 60 and this capitalisation seem to be applied to the designations after 1964, accorging to sv:Diskussion:Lista över Försvarsmaktens flygplan. --marsian 02:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crashes removed

I have removed the crashes section because it's not a common section for aircrafts in Wikipedia. There are many reasons for that. One is that it's very hard to keep this information accurate. Please respect this. Haksve 01:11, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Why should we respect you, when you cant respect us? You've broken the Three-revert rule by removing the same content 7 / seven times when warned about discussing it the talk page first, you have done exactly the same on the NN wikipedia and disrespect us for claimng were not able to keep it accurate. And why should only a few wikis remove this section upon your command while others not? And you want respect? Let me tell you, this is wikipedia, edited by billions of users each day, there is no big problem keeping lists accurate, history has shown. And adding lists to other aircrafts notable for crashing, would be relevant too --AndersL 01:36, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Keeping track of crashes and their reasons can not be accurate because this is military stuff. Billions of wiki users can't help that. Crashes have been removed on many others aircrafts articles, Gripen should be no exception. I'm sorry for seeming disrespectful but please focus on the subject, not on my person. You surely must see the problem with this issue. I wont edit the NN version again, I take it you are responsible for most of it so you can do it yourself. But I assume you have some personal reason for letting crashes be the only section in that article so I doubt that it will be done. --Haksve 02:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I very strongly disagree. Please do not remove it again. Thanks. --Guinnog 03:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

And your reasons for disagreeing? --Haksve 04:58, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

The crashes are individually and collectively interesting, verifiable, and tell a lot about the early development of the plane, especially the software development. What is your reason for wanting to delete the section? --Guinnog 05:01, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

My reason? Read above. Also, the crash-section makes the Gripen article feel biased. Wikipedia should not be part of negative campaigning. But I'll leave it to rest. Anyone else that feel that the Gripen article is biased, feel free to edit. --Haksve 05:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree with Guinnog, crashes belong to the article and should not be removed. It is the information verifiable and useful plus interesting, there no obvious reasons to remove it. TestPilot 20:20, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Guinnog: The crashes section should stay in. Especially concidering the negative reputation the plane has gotten and the myths that are flowing around saying the aircraft is crash-prone, it is good to have the actual amount of crashes and their causes listed. This does not make the article biased... on the contrary it would be to bias the article by cutting away a section of fact.

For other aircraft articles there are notable crashes mentioned. The Su-35 page has the Paris airshow crash of 1999 mentioned. The DC-10 page has a huge section called Safety Record. All four of the crashes by the JAS 19 are notable. The two first because they received wide attension as they were caught on tape. The third because the plane wasn't at fault. And the fourth because the plane behave very strange and because the cause is still to determined.

Unless you can point to a rule saying that crashes must not be mentioned in aircraft articles, you have nothing to go on. Stop reverting the article Haksve. --J-Star 08:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes I agree. The crash section is relevant as for time being. Gripen has probably been the most reliable fighter aircraft in service the last 10 years. But in the future as more planes might crash, a list will be hard to keep accurate and it will make the page look even more strange. Can you imagine how a list of the F-16's crasches would make it's page look like? As I said, there is a reason why crasches are not listed. Ok, but I will edit the part about the swedish public thinking that Gripen is an embarrassment. It's an authors POV about the publics POV, not relevant. I'm a swede myself so I know it's not even near the truth anyway. --Haksve 08:29, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Well this isn't the F-16. This isn't a plane made in an excess of 4000 manufactured, started in the 1970's. You look at what you have right now. Not what you might have in the future or what others have. Cutting out the list now because there might - in the future - be too many crashes to be practically listable makes very little sense. --J-Star 09:31, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, what makes sense? In an aircraft encyclopedia with comparable articles... should an unbiased editor solely give the headline "crasches" to one of the least crash-prone fighter aircrafts ever? My idea is that articles in an encyclopedia should correspond with each other but obviously there are some here that don't think so. This article looks like a joke because of this. --Haksve 10:23, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

As a Swede I must strongly object to removing the crashes section. "Crashes" and "JAS 39 Gripen" is synonymous to every Swede, and even if Gripen is less prone to crashes than just about any other modern aircraft it's an integral part of the history and development of the aircraft. The first of the crashes were very spectacular and almost got the whole project canceled and second led to very restrictive legislation regarding airshows near populated areas. The crashes section is perhaps the most important part of this article if you are a Swede.. it's the only thing we really care about regarding Gripen. -- Henriok 21:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Which of course can not be true. Fighter aircrafts attract more interest than any manmade objects except the space program perhaps. People care about many things about these planes. Why do you think airshows are so popular in Sweden and elsewhere? So please don't use the word "we". Swedes are no different than others in this respect.83.248.209.36 14:34, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Your comment doesn't have any obvious connection to mine. It is a fact that the Gripen crash over Stockholm lead to a more restricted legislation regarding airshows over populated areas. I'm not arguing that airshows are popular or not. They certainly are. -- Henriok 16:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I was refering to your statement that 'we' in the meaning 'swedes' only care about the crasches. That was what you wrote. It's a stupid to make generalizations like that and in this case I know it's not true. Maybe you are just using 'care' in the sense 'know of'. But even then it would be a stupid generalization.83.248.209.36 13:52, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ETPS usage

I don't believe the Gripen has entered common use with the ETPS yet, despite one being displayed with ETPS livery, is this correct? TiHead 23:26, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Photo request

Has anyone seen a photo online of a Grippen equipped with laser guided bombs and a targeting pod. I saw one once on the Grippen official website but could not download it. Thanks Chwyatt 16:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] There should be some more information included.

Since July 2006 at the FARNBOROUGH show an advanced version of the Gripen was being offered to replace the F-16 in Denmark and Norway. The new Gripen named Gripen N and Gripen DK is more advanced than the normal version. You should note that this is a project and has yet to be made.

So for obvious reasons I feel a new page should be added with the relevant information of the new developments of the Gripen. This new project also interests the British as it could further evolve as a possible replacement of the JSF.

I have the 2 official files in pdf concerning these informations.

If you want to contact me please send me a mail to this add:

mehdi_mu@hotmail.com

Thanks,

MehdiMautbur 17:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)