Talk:James Holden (producer)

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[edit] Requested move

James Holden (producer) → James Holden – There's no reason this can't be moved to James Holden. There is no entry for James Holden (engineer) nor can I find any info on who he is.

Done. —Nightstallion (?) 08:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Please repeat this requested move. It was reverted by an editor with edit summary "vandalism", which it clearly was not. Wickethewok 18:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I object. The engineer James Holden (engineer) is important. — Dunc|☺ 18:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

• Support There is no article for any other James Holden and until there is the disambiguation is unnecessary. Should another page be written it is easy enough to move the page again. Jay32183 19:28, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose: There is enough info about the other James Holden here and here to qualify him as notable and to justify him having a fairly substantial page. (Just google for "james holden engineer 1837 1925" and you'll find loads more links.) Plus I'm sure there are plenty of other notable James Holden's. Here's one who has nearly as many bbc.co.uk hits as "James Holden (producer)": example. --cfp 00:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

• Just fyi, the second is an "Assistant director of transportation". That phrase only gets about 200 some google hits, not a very notable position. In any case, these articles don't exist so a disambiguation page is not necessary. Wickethewok 01:32, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

• I wasn't serious about the second. It was what you call "a joke"... Though I guess there was an underlying point that one, in the grand scheme of things JH the prod is still fairly minor, (the BBC is a far better measure of importance than Google), and two there are almost certainly some other important JH's out there. Here's another, James Holden boss of Daimler Chrysler.

I take your point about these pages not existing yet, and for that reason I e-mailed the webmaster of steamindex.com earlier to check all his content was public domain. If it is, as it seems, then I will port it straight across and JH the engineer will have a considerably bigger article than JH the producer. Which seems fair enough given JH the engineer pioneered oil burning steam engines, which I guess led to the petrol engine... --cfp 01:54, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

• Ah, a joke. I have heard tell of such things! Though I sadly await someone to put up List of Assistant directors of transportation. Wickethewok 02:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

• Support. He seems to be more common. Just leave a disambiguation link to the other James Holden at the top of the page, as suggested in WP:DAB. Crumbsucker 02:51, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Support The article isn't even created. It isn't a notability issue - the article doesn't even exist. HawkerTyphoon 02:53, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Objectors should realize that naming articles is about usability, not about fairness to all comers. Write that article and hatnote it. --Dhartung | Talk 05:44, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

James Holden (engineer) now has a moderately sized stub. If their is a standard Wikipedia convention for always redirecting to the thing people are most likely to want to look at, then if you point me at a place where I can complain about that convention, then I'll drop my objections here. Personally though, it seems crazy that in an encyclopedia an article about a relatively unknown dance producer should be easier to find than an article about a major figure in the history of engineering. Ask yourself: in 100 years time, who are people most likely to be looking for? --cfp 14:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Probably James Holden, the music video sunglasses entrepreneur, born 2017 at an orbital space hotel. ;-) In which case we can change it then. But right now, we want to be most useful to the largest number of readers, and the DJ is clearly the most searched-for James Holden. (And I say this as someone who'd never heard of either, and who is probably more interested in the engineer.)

In any case, the primary topic rule is the one in force here, with some help from WP:NAME. These are guidelines worked out over many years, so they should be flouted only if there's a compelling reason. --Dhartung | Talk 03:14, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

The primary topic rule does seem emminently sensible when Rome is given as the example. I guess I'm just not entirely convinced that applies here. The only reason there are more links to JH the producer (both on WP and Google) is that people who listen to house are significantly more likely to be internet savvy than those interested in Steam Trains. But at least on anecdotal evidence I'd say there were more train buffs than JH fans (pretty much all males I know of my dad's age get excited at the mention of piston's and boilers). WP:NAME does talk about considering "the majority of English speakers" rather than just those who currently use WP. Anyway Dhartung, you've been very fair handed and seem a fairly experienced WP user, so if I haven't convinced you now then I will drop all my objections to this move. --cfp 13:12, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose. I think searching will uncover several more James Holden's who would merit articles. This name is too common to not have a dab. For the record, there are only 630,000 google hits. Vegaswikian 07:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
• Update - Neutral. James Holden now has no non-talk/user pages linking to it. James Holden (engineer) has about 20 pages linking to it (not counting those it has becuase it is in a navibox) James Holden (producer) has 35 pages linking to it and James Holden (actor) has 3 pages linking to it.
• Strong Oppose. There are three articles at this point and the need for the dab page is clear. To whoever does the close on this, do read the above votes. It appears that two of them should be counted as Oppose since the additional articles were written. You need a strong case in my opinion to replace a dab page with an article. That case has not been made here. Vegaswikian 01:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC)