Talk:James Dean

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Contents

[edit] Removal of "Rumors" section

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It has numerous policies to ensure essential credibility. At Wikipedia:The perfect article it states that all articles must reflect expert knowledge, be fact-based and rooted in sound scholarly and logical principles. Editors must ensure an article

  • ...is precise and explicit; free of vague generalities and half-truths that may stem from an imperfect grasp of the subject.
  • ...is well-documented; reputable sources are cited, especially those which are the most accessible and up-to-date.
  • ...is very clear; written to avoid ambiguity and misunderstanding. Begins with a definition, and follows a logical structure; uses clearly-worded sentences, grammar, and syntax.

One of the instruments Wikipedia has created to ensure the factual accuracy of an article is this:

The factual accuracy of this article or section is disputed.
Please see the relevant discussion on the talk page.


The notice says the "article," it does not say "except for rumors." However, any Wikipedia contributor who wants to change current Official Policy can do so via several established vehicles such as announcing a survey should on Wikipedia:Current surveys or if it is a major survey, then they may also list it on Wikipedia:Announcements. Ted Wilkes 15:55, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Note too, that Wikipedians established proper procedure for section headings at Talk:Abraham Lincoln. Be it the article or its Talk page, they appear on Internet search engines such as Google and those who come here can promote their agenda on the Talk page even if it is not in the article. Wikipedia:Wikiquette states that contributors are to " Use the Talk pages to discuss the accuracy/inaccuracy, POV bias, or other problems in the article, not as a soapbox for advocacy." Further, such abuses may be corrected in accordance with Wikipedia:Refactoring. As such, I have amended some of the improper headings that were on this page so that they meet Wikipedia standards. - Ted Wilkes 15:50, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of hyperlinks

Why was this link to a well researched Internet biography repeatedly deleted by users Ted Wilkes and Wyss? [1] See [2] and [3]. Onefortyone 18:18, 7 October 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Homosexual leanings

  • The sexual orientation of a person is certainly appropiate mention in a WP article. Other articles on historical persons or celebrities mention the heterosexual relationships that they had, so it is only fair to mention their homosexual relationships. The bisexuality of James Dean is well established by several people that were involved in Hollywood at the time and knew him. That is different from a rumor. I have noticed a desire among some people to pretend that all famous people or celerbrites are heterosexual, and that is simply not based on the history.

There is a new source which says that Dean had homosexual leanings. Live Fast, Die Young – The Wild Ride of Making Rebel Without a Cause, a recent book by Lawrence Frascella and Al Weisel, says that Rebel director Nicholas Ray knew Dean to be bisexual. I have therefore reinstated the "Rumors" section, but Wyss and Ted Wilkes have completely deleted this paragraph. See [4] and [5]. It is a historical fact that Dean's homosexual social life and gay patrons like Rogers Brackett played an important role in Dean's rise to stardom. See also Talk:James_Dean_/archive1. Onefortyone 18:13, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

WP is not a tabloid. Wyss 15:54, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Therefore I made references to several published books which all prove that Dean was bisexual. What should be wrong with the following paragraph:
===Rumors about homosexual leanings===
Decades after Dean's death, author Boze Hadleigh, an expert on Hollywood gays, published a 1972 interview with Sal Mineo in which the actor said, "Nick (Adams) told me they had a big affair-" [6] However, Adams was well-known in Hollywood for sometimes embellishing or making up stories about his show business experiences (and had long tried to attach himself to the James Dean legend). Further sources support the view that Dean had homosexual leanings. Bit actor and writer John Gilmore, a member of Dean's "Night Watch" motorcyle riders, wrote a book on James Dean claiming they had a homosexual encounter. In his Natalie Wood biography, the reputed Hollywood expert Gavin Lambert describes Dean as being bisexual. In her memoir of her brief affair with Dean, actress Dizzy Sheridan claimed Dean had an affair with Rogers Brackett, a radio director for an advertising agency whom Dean met in the summer of 1951 while working as a parking attendant at CBS. In Val Holley's James Dean: the Biography (1997) gay studies scholars will also find rich factual evidence of Dean's homosexual social life, and of the crucial role gay patrons like Rogers Brackett played in Dean's rise to stardom. Last not least, Live Fast, Die Young – The Wild Ride of Making Rebel Without a Cause, a recent book by Lawrence Frascella and Al Weisel, says that Rebel director Nicholas Ray knew Dean to be bisexual. Onefortyone 10:56, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Tabloid gossip accounts like this are not encyclopedic. Wyss 16:36, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

  • It is not tabloid gossip to report published, sourced accounts. There are 446,000 Google hits for "James Dean" gay, which supports the idea that this is a subject of debate, contention and discussion. At the very least, it does our readers a disservice to pretend that somehow there is no discussion of the matter. At worst, it is a homophobic whitewash. In this particular instance, I believe onefortyone's passage to be proper. I note that the arbcom ruling focuses solely on the Elvis Presley article - about which I agree there is not sufficient sourced evidence to discuss the Memphis Mafia. Here, however, I note several cited discussions. Particularly compelling is the Holley biography, which seems to be considered a definitive work on the man, and was read and signed at the James Dean Gallery - along with Live Fast, Die Young. This is a subject that deserves mention. FCYTravis 06:46, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes it is tabloid gossip and tabloid gossip about James Dean attracts attention which is why there are so many hits about it. Please use some scholarship. All sources are not equal and Google is a wonderful search engine, not an edited bibliography. James Dean may have been bisexual but there is no documented evidence (other than dubious hearsay most of which began after he died) to support it. Wyss 06:59, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
There is plenty of scholarship. With that many clearly basic sources, it must be at least considered. I invite you to find and place sources which tend to refute the claims. I will do some searching myself. But you're claiming that major biographies by people close to him and other biographers are not "scholarship?" Please. If you don't believe it's true, the way to refute it is to find sources which do so. FCYTravis 07:04, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

You have it backwards. The assertion requires support. Support doesn't include gossip. There is no evidence to support the assertion. There is no need to refute an unsupported assertion, although 141 is rather adept at tricking well-meaning but confused editors into thinking unfounded assertions must be refuted in order to be excluded from Wikipedia. Even admins get muddled by this. 141, using his single-topic user account, is skilled at what he does. Wyss 08:36, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

The assertion *is* supported by the statements in the book. A published, referenced biography is not a Weekly World News article. These are not self-published screeds. These are biographical works which assert their veracity. If we cannot verify the veracity of their claims, we can verify that the claim has been made. The mere claim would not be encyclopedic if it came from a single source, such as the issue revolving around Elvis Presley. There, there is precious published. Here, we have no such issue. There are clearly many works from many authors and many statements from many people which tend to support the idea that Dean was, at the least, bisexual. At this point, we have an obligation to report the controversy. I note that there has not been a single source presented which refutes the claims.
Why is it so hard for you to believe that a popular actor might have been gay? You are faced with a mountain of published evidence from many sources that states he may have been. Where, sir, is your evidence? If you are arguing that somehow there is not enough - well sir, on that point we shall have to disagree, because in my judgement there are plenty of verifiable sources to support the inclusion of the debate. We are not a court of law. One is not "hetero until proven gay." There is a two-prong standard - encyclopedicity and verifiability. Clearly, the sexuality of a film star is encyclopedic. Secondly, that a wide-ranging group of biographers, friends and alleged lovers have made statements to the effect that Dean was bisexual is verifiable. We have a verified encyclopedic issue. FCYTravis 09:54, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Furthermore, I point you to O. J. Simpson - a Wikipedia article full of what-ifs. In it, Wikipedia encyclopedically discusses a book written by a former prosecutor which details some of those what-ifs. It's a verifiable source, even if not all of the claims it makes are verifiable - specifically, the claim that OJ "got away with murder!" The fact that the claim has been made by a verifiable, credible source (in this case, a former prosecutor) makes it encyclopedic. So it goes with James Dean. FCYTravis 10:16, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

This is tabloid gossip that belongs on "ET", not in an encyclopedia that claims & hopes to be reputable. All the books that "prove" Dean was gay or bisexual use interviews of people long after the fact who claim to have known someone who knew someone. None have reports of people who actually were his gay or bisexual lovers.--squadfifteen, 15/11/05

It should be removed. Just because a string of books publish varioius accounts of it, it does not mean its fact. Smerk 23:24, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
This whole section is biased in its portrayal of Dean as a homosexual or bisexual. Dean had many heterosexual relationships that are well documented including an engagement to actress Pier Angeli, and affairs with starlets such as Ursula Andress, neither of whom are even mentioned in the article. And yet obscure men whom were supposedly lovers of Dean such as a "radio director" and a "motorcycle rider" are identified by name. Not disputing whether or not Dean was or wasn't a homosexual or bisexual, but feel strongly that this section is very poorly written and with a slant and agenda. It should be removed or completely overhauled. 218.102.69.151 02:54, 7 February 2006
I have no problem believing Dean's bisexuality, but Larry Quirk is not a reliable source, and neither is Boze Hadleigh. If you ask Larry Quirk about anyone - and I have done so in my own research - he will tell you the person is gay. He will tell you that Lassie is gay. Ditto Boze. Larry's uncle was a Victorian prude who ran Photoplay and disapproved of everyone.Chandler75
  • When detailing a biography in an encyclopedia article, aspects of the subject's personal life are entirely relevant. It seems there is no problem mentioning Dean's heterosexual liaisons, up to and including the completely ludicrous and irrelevant Seinfeld reference. Why, then, are Dean's homosexual affairs objectionable in the context of Wikipedia? It is not the place of Wikipedia to pass moral judgment. To say that Dean was likely bisexual is not slanderous, it's simply a conclusion to be drawn from numerous sources who claim first-hand knowledge. As to the statement that rumor/hearsay has no place in Wikipedia, there are very important historical events (Salem Witch Trials, McCarthy Hearings) and societal trends (cloistering, illegitimacy) that are entirely based on such rumors and hearsay. As long as we acknowledge the fluidity of their sources, they are worthy of inclusion. Iamvered 01:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

People should accept Dean wasn't straight and move on.

  • There are numerous reliable first-hand sources regarding Dean's bisexuality. Just one recent article by Germaine Greer is a good place to start: [7]

[edit] Memorial

Some info taken from book - James Dean, by Sandford Roth and Beulah Roth 1983 ISBN 3822800643, other info abridged from [8]

I reverted User:FCYTravis. The first author cited made a "claim" but without facts and Dean never said he was gay or bixseual "to set the record straight." Wikipedia:Verifiability doesn't mean just prove a book by anyone exists, it is just part of providing fact-based quotes from unimpeachable sources. Third party quotes aren't encyclopedic. Comparing unsubstantiated gossip by this author to the qualifications of a trained prosecutor giving a "what-if" scenario about the O.J. Simpson case based on his legal scholarship, is not acceptable. And, Boze Hadleigh is not an acceptable source for Wikipeda, an issue already documented with precise details at Talk:Nick Adams and its Talk archives. - Ted Wilkes 15:46, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Dean doesn't have to say anything regarding the subject "to set the record straight." Third party quotes are encyclopedic, and it is not unsubstantiated gossip to report what HIS ALLEGED LOVER said. If you continue reverting, I will protect the page and file an RfC. The ArbCom ruling speaks SPECIFICALLY about Elvis Presley and makes NO statements about the arguments here. You clearly have a POV that requires NOTHING be mentioned that would even possibly think these people could be gay. I think you need to step back from this issue and realize that you are going way too far. FCYTravis 18:20, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

FCYTravis, there is no evidence James Dean was gay, only lots of opportunistic (book selling) hearsay after he died. If you don't understand encyclopedic sourcing and balance, you don't belong here and you certainly shouldn't be making abusive threats about protecting pages you're involved in, never mind threatening editors of those pages with RfCs. If you want to write a tabloid, why don't you start with a blog somewhere? Wyss 22:48, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Removed text concerning rumors. again - The Arbitration Committee hearings and ruling included James Dean and others with respect to Official policy to Verifiability of article content and of Wikipedia:Reliable Sources as well as Wikipedia:No original research. Ted Wilkes 18:37, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

  • There is *no* original research contained within. Everything is sourced. Every bit of text is verifiable. Major biographies are considered reliable sources. This is *not* Elvis Presley. I have no idea why you insist on removing all sorts of valid information that presents an argument that Wikipedia must include. I call on you again to find your own reliable sources which refute the assertions. In fact, you are the one who is doing "original research" by insisting that everything presented within is wrong. "We report what reliable publications publish. We do not investigate whether they are right or wrong." The fact that several major biographies and publications have included it make it original research to claim it's all wrong by deleting it. FCYTravis 19:13, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Our ruling does not mean that no person may add verifiable information about James Dean's alleged homosexuality to this article. Reverting FCYTravis' additions on the basis of the ArbCom ruling would be an inappropriate use of that ruling. That said, 3RR still applies; do not edit war. Kelly Martin (talk) 22:27, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
The sources cited do not meet WP standards for reliability, they're essentially hearsay, which is especially cheap when it comes to celebrities. Wyss 22:50, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
This is an interesting claim. Yet FCYTravis has here explained the sources and referred to them as major biographical works. Please explain your claim to the contrary. Hinakana 19:37, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, why is it that so many are ardent that any mention of James Dean's possible homosexuality should be removed, when it appears in so many sources. Granted, a biography is not necessarily always completely indisputably true. However, if published, authorised biographies cannot be considered to be fact, and are instead considered "gossip" we are descending to the level where we will have to decide what truth is. Apart from mathematical proofs, it is impossible to verify beyond dispute any statement. Is it really in our interest to descend this far. What can be said is that there are numerous sources of good repute stating that he may have been bisexual. This should certainly warrant mention and discussion in the article. Hinakana 19:35, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

It's almost impossible to find an account of Dean's life without a hopelessly politicized agenda on his sexuality on one side or the other. Both the gay and straight communities want to claim him exclusively to themselves. That said, it's hard to take anyone who claims there is no evidence beyond "tabloid gossip" that he had affairs with men very seriously. It's pretty disappointing wikipedia isn't able to rise above the petty politics involved in this debate. There is pretty sound evidence that he had sexual relationships with both men and women. Trying to pinpoint an identity on the gay-bi-straight spectrum for an individual who died before the age of 25 with next to no autobiographical material behind is nothing more than interesting, open-ended speculation. 24.107.63.252 17:43, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Suggest all the above commentators read William Bast's new book "Surviving James Dean" before making any more declarations about Dean's sexuality.

  • I agree that the "gay and straight communities" both may want to claim Dean exclusively (although I find the idea of these cultural groups having actual agendas to be laughable), which is why it is entirely right to say that James Dean was, according to a number of sources, likely bisexual. That way, we have acknowledged that the proof is lacking (there's no film of him in a hot encounter with some dude), but we also don't try to whitewash or deny the fact that several of his contemporaries claim that he did engage in homosexual activities. There's enough Jimmy for both communities to share.Iamvered 17:34, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes from Val Holley, James Dean: The Biography

p. 6: "It's my belief," Wilder wrote, "that when Jimmy became a star, he was terrified that his homosexual background might be revealed.

p. 7: Some of its residents condition their cooperation with biographers on a promise not to write about any of his homosexual experiences.

p. 8: Nowadays, the first question asked about James Dean is often "Was he gay?" Recent biographical efforts declared that Dean was in fact gay, but the very source whose homosexual experiences with Dean formed the basis for such an "outing" disputes that conclusion. As Jonathan Gilmore said recently, "I am as opposed to the conclusion that Jimmy was `homosexual' and `a gay man' as I am to the assertions of his being 'trueblue heterosexual.' "I was there," Gilmore continues. "I was involved in it in New York and Hollywood. I knew the people he slept with and I knew who he was not with. Both Jimmy and I had relations with girls. While Jimmy was making Rebel Without a Cause, I introduced him to a Hollywood High School boy, an actor and dancer whom I was quite taken with. Jimmy also found him very attractive, and I know something happened between them that summer. "That's how it was, neither black nor white. Jimmy thought of himself as an explorer, making discoveries in life, things, and sex.

p. 78: Two years later, Dean would discuss the draft with his friend Jonathan Gilmore in New York. "One night in a cafeteria on Broadway," Gilmore reports, "Jimmy said one could get out of being drafted by claiming to have bisexual tendencies-which included having homosexual tendencies, of course, but one was afraid of being branded queer.

p. 80: Although his draft classification would not be official until November 14, rumors of his telling the draft board he was homosexual may already have surfaced.

p. 85: Wilder found Dean engaging. "He was short, physically strong, weak-eyed to the extent that he needed glasses, cheerful, uninformed, a prankster, and most certainly not a reader," Wilder wrote two decades later. "He came from a poor farming family, had no money, but was possessed by the desire to act. He behaved in a very masculine manner, but was homosexual."

p. 94: "I've had letters from crazy people about him. One was from a gay man who asked, `How dare you claim Jimmy? He's ours!' As to the question of whether he was gay, I really don't know. But I can tell you that we very much enjoyed each other when we were together. It was very intense and very heated."

p. 153: Not surprisingly, the homosexual members of this circle took a special interest in Dean. According to Madison Musser, they called him the Marshmallow Brando. Onefortyone 00:13, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Proper sourcing and original research

Coming from RfC, I have this to add: The controversy surrounding Dean's sexuality is absolutely a valid topic to explore. I would say that not only is the idea that such a controversy exists (not that it's true, only that it exists) sourced, but that it is arguably oversourced. There can be no debate about its inclusion, really, it is clearly relevant to popular notions about James Dean. I would also add that the multiple sourcings (and some of these could be moved down to the end of the article, yes?) are not original research. If my next door neighbor tells me he slept with Dean and even has photos to prove it, I include same in this article, then that would be inappropriate, even though I would be providing documentary evidence that Dean was at least bisexual. Which brings me to my next point: barring a picture of Dean in flagrante or a newly-uncovered diary where he admits his "true" sexuality, what would be "verifiable" proof? IronDuke 01:26, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I added "research indicates speeding" line, based on a TV documentary I saw about a company that reconstructs accidents. They found Turupseed had been speeding and had not seen the 550; as I recall, they said the Merc hit the 550 as Dean made the turn onto 41. --squadfifteen, 15/11/05


[edit] Section dispute notice

I inserted the notice. Here (above) and on the archive are numerous rebuttals to many of the claims made. It first refers to a book but doesn't say what the book actually states. Boze Hadleigh, as the editor who inserted the reference to him knows, is not an acceptable encyclopedic source. Most of the other references are hearsay: someone saying someone told them something. Too, the John Gilmore reference is deliberately manipulated, omitting extremely relevant facts. And so on and so on. I will do more research and put together facts to deal line by line with the claims. - Ted Wilkes 15:58, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I have read this debate with great interest. Yes, rumors abound about James Dean. I think he probably experimented sexually. Why anyone makes a big deal of that, I have no idea. I don't have a problem with what Gilmore said, though I admit I haven't read it in context. The problem with these rumors is that every year, something is added that is more outrageous, more boyfriends surface, and it really becomes tabloid. No one has to verify a thing because Dean is dead and can't sue. I could write a book tomorrow that says I had a love child with Elvis and a very reputable publisher would snap it up in a second. Elvis can't deny it. Reputable and publisher - a contradiction in terms. I've worked in publishing. People refer to "reputable sources" but many of these reputable sources came from one source (which may be correct or may not be) and that source is repeated and repeated over and over, and statements and names are added to it that weren't there to begin with. Boze Hadleigh is a dreadful source, but it's acceptable because it's in book form, something I have no understanding of - Wikipedia claims not to care about the truth, only that something is verifiable and can be used as a reference. Fine. But anyone using Boze Hadleigh as a reference is clearly deluded. A good biographer relies as much as possible on original research, i.e., interviews, letters, photos, and personal papers. A good biographer tries to avoid using other people's books. The biographer I worked for was told by his agent to make things up - he was behind deadline because he was waiting to verify some references. That's how much the literary crowd cares. I think if Wikipedia wants to explore someone's sexuality, fine, but the writer should seek out the earliest source available to see what was actually said, or make the best possible effort to find the best source available - the most highly respected writer, for instance, not just every rumor that comes down the pike.Chandler75 04:14, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Porsche 550

I felt it was important to mention the rumors that his Spyder, aka "Little Bastard", was cursed. It seems like a fairly important topic, given how much attention has been given to it in the past, although the rest of the article could use some sprucing up (as in more content). Any objections to the new section about the car? 70.48.111.198 08:48, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

-I wouldn't exactly describe a tire failure as "miraculous".  ;)
I thought the section on the car was fascinating. Georgeslegloupier 05:19, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, fascinating. These curse stories invariably turn out to have endless exagerated and fabricated details. It's likely codswallop, other than to say that a twisted car wreck is not the safest thing to be around. Wyss 03:51, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Donald Turnupseed

I've noticed this here and on other articles, but what's the point of putting a link on Donald Turnupseed if that link only links back to the page it's on? If it was once a separate page, I understand, but I'm going to remove the link, as it is pointless. Sieckanddestroy 21:43, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup tag

After doing some clean up of my own, I added a cleanup tag. I hate to be too critical... but this article is terrible! It is filled with hearsay and sentences that don't really go anywhere or add anything. Some of it is just stupid: "It is noted by all James Dean fans that although his character grows old in Giant, Dean himself will forever be young."

This article might also be an NPOV violation. 2-bits 03:11, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Putting it mildly. The encyclopedic elements are surrounded by blog drek. Wyss 03:53, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

hi honey

[edit] Statement by Nick Adams's secretary, Bill Dakota

On the Talk:Nick Adams page there is a recent statement by Bill Dakota which may be of much interest to James Dean fans. It proves that Dean was bisexual. Onefortyone 17:38, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] TV movie

Why aren't there any mention of the 2002 TV movie? James Franco won a Golden Globe for it. Soshesaid 12:48, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quality issue

What a dreadfully written article, at times incoherent. Worse, what's with the mention of "premonitions" and "curses"? Never mind the inaccuracies and tabloid gunk.

[edit] Marion, Indiana

James Dean is NOT from Marion, Indiana.

He is, in fact, from Fairmount, Indiana. Fairmount, Indiana is a town in southern Grant County, Indiana.

-In that case, some citation can be provided and the appropriate edits made.

--Gautam3 00:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cruel and Unusual

The first paragraph notes something to the effect that Dean is a legend because he died young. This is radically perverse and degrades Dean as a marvelous actor he was, and that most people agree with. This really needs to be removed.

--Gautam3 00:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

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