Talk:Jamaat-ul-muslimeen

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[edit] DO NOT DELETE ANY PART OF THIS DISCUSSION

In this discussion:

Omair = a muslim who endorses the view that islam should be understood according to the interpetation of Prophet Muhammad. And not according to other peoples' desires, especially Albani, Bin Baz, Masood Ahmad etc.

Younus = a muslim who endorses the view that islam should be understood according to the understanding of the salaf (The sahabah, taba'een and tabe taba'een). And not according to other peoples' desires, especially masood ahmad

[edit] Omair's Reply

First dissapprove what they believe (Aqaaids) is wrong from the Qur'an and Sunnah. then I will continue with you.

For your convenience I put that section here: Their Creeds

  • Every Believer of Islam must call himself Muslim only and any other names like Sunni, Shi'a, Hanafi, Shafi`i, Maliki, Hanbali or Wahhabi, Ahle Hadith or Salafi etc., are not proven in Islam and are not acceptable.
  • Every muslim must strictly adhere to Qur'an and Sunnah of the Prophet (Peace and Blessing of Allah be upon Him), and shun to the new ideas like Qiyas, Fatwa and Ijtihad of early & present Scholars etc, they conisder these new ideas as Bid'ah (innovation) in religion and openly Shirk (i.e. making association in Allah's Decreed Divine Laws)

[edit] Younus - sahih bukhari will answer

i am preparing an answer for both these questions. alhamdulillah they can be easily answered through ahadith. And if you have the guts, answer my questions above which are very simple. you are ignoring them from the very beginning. something is fishy here. you are either trying to avoid it as you know you are baatil. if you have some guts and if you fear allah answer it. It will bew established that you are cowards. and for Allah's sake put your reply below this and do not delete the whole thing.

[edit] Omair's reply (donot change the name)

Alright, I'm waiting for your answsers..and remember that I dont neead a FATWA of Albani or anybody else for that matter... as you did present on your Website in the Section of Refutation > Albani (Calling Muslim is enough for me, THAT fatwa only works on Folish people like you not Me [a..aan], For me Allah's Guidance is enough that (call yourself muslim only and nothing else).... I am not a muqalid of none (I only follow Kitaab Allh (Quran + Hadith)) Fatwa doesnt work for me.. Fattwa only works on Muqalideen (which you are famous for and ONE of them) It is clear that you are a muqalid of Albani... or any salafi mullahs...You are calling me maooodi (which i'm not, because I'm not muqalid of Sheikh Masood Ahamad) I'm Muslim and nothing else.....

I'am waitiiiiiiiiiiiiiing.... Salafi boy or rightly called Albani boy ... you muqalid of albani... learn the Defination of Taqleed first then call someone muqalid.... if you dont know I'm quoting it here for you

التقلید اتباع الانسان غیرہ فیما یقول او یفعد معتقد الحقیقة فیة من غیر نظروتائمل فی الدلیل کان ھذا المتبع جعل قول الغیرا و فعلة قلاوة فی عنقة من غیر مطالبة الدلیل (حسامی)

if you don't undersdand arabic (you muqalid of albani), I'm translating it here for you.

"Taqleed is the name of accepting the saying and action of a person with the firmedness that what is said is truth, without finding the evidance themselves. and without ponder/searching about it. so its like Placing something to tied around the neck witout asking for any proof or evidance"

Which is exacttly you are doing (your website is filled with full of these notions) and all the Ahle-sunnah wa al-jamaah (hanafi, malki, shafai, hanbli, Salafi etc etc) follower are acting upon..but not only Sunni all of them (sect/cults) acting upon it.

May Allah save us (Muslims) from such bidah (innovations) that have been wide-spread and introduced in the name of Islam. (ameen)

Comparision is CLEAR here Still you have some gutts to answer...[Bring it on Boy].

[edit] Omair needs to first learn english

learn english...i think you are very weak in english and cannot even understand a fraction of anything i say.. go to www.dictionary.com if you don't understand some words. As far as fatwas are concerned i am gonna quote from imam bukhari to prove that fatwas are a part of islam.. you say that those who give and follow fatwas are muqallied's, then after my proof is given to you, it will imply that imam bukhari was an innovator (nauzubillah) Just wait and hope that your mis-guidance is not exposed again.

Before we begin, we need one answer from you... was imam bukari rightly guided? i mean according to jamaat ul muslimeen, was he on the right path? based on your answer, I can proceed

And as far as names are concered, im gonna quote a sahih hadith which will prove that there are other names as well. You say that "muslim" is the only name, I will inshallah prove to you that, to say that it is the ONLY name is a big fat lie.

And you said that, "Taqleed is the name of accepting the saying and action of a person with the firmedness that what is said is truth, without finding the evidance themselves. and without ponder/searching about it. so its like Placing something to tied around the neck witout asking for any proof or evidance" .... (look at the spelling errors...)

this fits very well for what you do with masood ahmad... you are his muqallid-e-mutlaq.. he said "Jamaat ul muslimeen is the name of the jamaat" and you blindy believed him.

You poochy of masood

[edit] Omair's Reply

o.k i might be weak in english....but as long as you understand what i meant here...is enough for conversation...I mean you are not gonna teach me english here [are u??]....or pointing out how many typos i made [don't you] I admit that i'm not a english speaker... but as long as you understand me we will continue...

you said "As far as fatwas are concerned i am gonna quote from imam bukhari to prove that fatwas are a part of islam.."

you again here, I think you didn't understand me here...Imam Bukhari is not a Divine Authority...so i don't need a Fatwa (His opinion), whether it's iamam Bukhari or anybody else...If you can prove me from Prophet's Saying (Hadith) then I'm ready to accept...but if you still quoting from Imam's, Scholar's or andy Mullah's opinions then that is nothing for me and agian for the Question "was imam bukari rightly guided?" Yes He was, and Infact all the Imam's of Third Generatios (Tabaieen or Taba Tabaieen)...but that doesnot mean.. they were free from doing mistakes [I think you also accepts that)...Only Prophets are Masoom and nobody besides them...so Prophet's opionion is final authority for me...because His opinion is backed by Revelation (See Holy Quran for detail)....and any Scholar's opinion is just his personal judgment and they are not backed by Revelation...so if I take their opinion..I will do Shirk (Salafi Boy learn about Shirk and how many kinds of Shirk are there that we must need to avoid, if you need Ayah and Hadith regarding this topic..i'm ready to help you) [I think I clearly made my point here Salafi boy]

And you said The Defination of Taqleed fits on me....[I THINK YOU CAN'T READ PROPERLY WHAT I SAID ABOUT TAQLEED]..How can it fits on me when I don't do taqleed of anybody (...and It is our minhaaj (methodology) that we don't give personal opionion or take personal opinion on Divine laws (Shariah, Qura'an, Hadith) ..We ask for daleel (proof), So our scholars never give personal opinion... they alwasy said (with proof) that This is Prophet said...and this how sahaba meant....nothing else [Did you see that there is no Persoanl Opinion involved]...how come I'm muqalid...But it is infact you are a muqalid..

W1. you call yourself Salafi..(where is the proof from the prophet that call your self Salafi??) 2. you take blindly what your scholars say (Qayas, fatwa, ijtihaad) on Divine laws

if it is still not clear....take a current example...I shall start with your website...Albani's section:

You said that the albani's said it is not ok to call your self muslim only....FOR THAT HE give lengthy details why you have to call yourself SALAFI? (so i ask you where did he proof IT from Hadith or Prophet's sayings.....but he give his personal opionion) and you took it blindly [THAT'S WHY I CALL YOU MUQALID AND IT REALY FITS ON YOU]. [SO NOW IT IS CLEAR THAT WHO IS MUQALID AND WHO IS NOT] and from now on if you don't take anybody's opinion so blindly... I will stop calling you muqalid and if you also leave the name (Salafi) that you are so proud of...then i will STOP calling you Salafi.

BUT YOU CAN'T CALL ME MASOODI, MUQALID BLAH BLAH...you have to proof me how i'm muqalid and masoodi....I think I aak you this several times.... but YOU just don't want to listen... Ythat person is called foolish who just repeat ONE thing over and over again..SO I THINK YOU'R SMART ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND THIS....ONE more think I call you salafi...because you call yourself Salafi....so yaeah prove me whatever i mentioned above.....THEN I WILL STOP IT.

AND ONE MORE THING WHO TOLD YOU THAT JAMA'AT AL MUSLIMEEN IS A NAME..but no It's a discription of our reality (meaing all muslim's gathered on ONE Plateform with same minhaaj, that is called jamaat al muslimeen, which I also metnioned in the ARTICLE...Muslim's Group, The Muslim Society)

I'm still waiting for the answers for my Qs

Peace (Salafi boy)

[edit] Younus - imam bukhari

if imam bukhari is nothing to you, then why do you accept his hadith blindly? Just because he said a hadith is sahih, does it make it sahih? did u ever verify each and every narrator of hadith.??? of course not!! you trust his judgement because you know he is pious and righteous. did u know that the science of hadith does not even accept a hadith from an innovator?? all the ahadith of sahih al bukhari are based on the authority of this man, and if you believe that his thoughts and words mean nothing to you, then his whole work and life should be meaningless. Did you accompany imam bukhari when he was verifying whether the narrator is truthful or not?? do you call this blind following? according to yur understanding, it is blind following, bacause u accept all his ahadith to be sahih?

[edit] Omair's Reply

What a crap, you even don't know how the Sahih Collection of al-Bukhari are Authentic....(study the Science of Hadith first..then put any argument here) Imam Bukhari himself mentioned about His Sahih Collections that: " I did not include everything that I judge authentic/Sahih in my Jami, But I only included what have Ijmaa (agreement) of all the Muhaditheen (Hadith scholars)."

So it is not only His Judgment but the judgment of all the muhadithees (which inlude him, his teachers etc..) and judgment doesnot based on how pious they were.....but it has whole sciences behind those hadith (piety would be part of it)....like i said Study Hidith sciences first (salafi boy)...and DONOT CHANGE THE LANE...you know What i'm talking about very well...so reply me what I mentined above first....then we will continue.

Peace [read my last post first and I'm still waiting for answers for my Qs].....DONOT CHANGE THE LANE....

[edit] why have you ignored my simple questions then???

i see that in the name of shortening the discussion, you have conveniently ignored the 4 questions that i asked you in the past. Why?? are you a coward like the rest of the jamaat?? disprove me here by answering. You very well know that these questions can clearly prove your mis-guidence to the world. Come now...be a god lad and asnwer the below Please answer these questions:

Q.1) What is a person who is not a member of Jamaat-ul-muslimeen?

a) Muslim b) Kaafir

Q.2) How does a person become a muslim?

Q.3) When did the Khilafah (started by the sahaabah) end?

Q.4) What did the people become after that (the end of that Khilafah)?

a) Muslim b) Kaafir

Answer if you are on haq. Don't act like a shaitan and run away from the truth! I have recieved several different answers from various memebers of this jamaat. You are not united on your aqeedah as well. Each time i get a different answer. Although each answer has some kufr elements in it, always!

[edit] the imam bukhari thing

I still think that you don't understand english very well. Let me reiterate the question:

"According to you, was imam bukhari a mubtadi or righly guided (on the path of sunnah)?"

Just answer this and we shall proceed! :-) . I personally know members of Jamat ul muslimeen who said that the people after Omar ibn abdul Aziz are murtads. This includes imam bukhari as well (nauzubillah).

And then you quoted imam bukhari as saying: " I did not include everything that I judge authentic/Sahih in my Jami, But I only included what have Ijmaa (agreement) of all the Muhaditheen (Hadith scholars)."

and you said, "So it is not only His Judgment but the judgment of all the muhadithees (which inlude him, his teachers etc..) and judgment doesnot based on how pious they were.....but it has whole sciences behind those hadith (piety would be part of it)...."

So my question here is:

Why do you blindly believe all these muhadditheen? Just because they say something is saheeh and something is dhaeef, does it make it that way? According to the prnciple of jamat ul muslimeen and i quote their website:

"We refer to all books but it is not necessary that we might agree to a hadith which Albani or anyone etc declared Sahih or dhaeef, we do our own research."

Here "anyone etc" would include all the muhadditheen. So you do not trust anyone. How can you do your own research man?

It can be clearly understood from your websites statement that you don't trust anyone. "We do our own research". We doubt whether their "learned" Ameer or any Tom, Dick or Harry from Jamaat-ul-Muslimeen knows the number of the different types of Hadith leave alone their names.

Just prove to me that you do not blindly follow these muhadditheen. I say that I have to follow them, even blindly because I trust them and their piety. I have no means of verifying each and every narrator of hadith as they did. So if Imam bukhari and all the others say that a particular narrator is trustworthy, I believe them. and if they say that a narrator is a liar, I trust them. I blindly believe them. I call this taqleed as well. This is permissable.

[edit] jamaat ul muslimeen is a name, claims your website

You are not only ignorant on matters of deen, but you are ignorant of what your website says. Follow this link.. the article here clearly states that jamaat ul muslimeen is a name:

I quote: "Thus it is clear that the name of Al-jamaat is Jamaat-ul-Muslimeen." http://aljamaat.org/jamaat-ul-muslimeen/introduction.htm

know yourself first before trying to teach islam to the world! This is clearly an innovation in the deen of Allah as no one ever in the history of Islam, ever said that jamaat ul muslimeen is a name.

and i know what you are going to do now:

Since you are a blind follower of this website, you will say that it is indeed a name. Although a few minutes or hours ago you were denying that it is a name. I quote you: "AND ONE MORE THING WHO TOLD YOU THAT JAMA'AT AL MUSLIMEEN IS A NAME."

You will never have the brain and the taufeeq to say that the website is wrong. You just blindly believe what it says. so, your belief changes every second.

This is sufficient proof to me that masood ahmad was a mubtadi, and that this group is involved in bid'ah. And how can a group that practices bid'ah be the saved sect?

[edit] Where did this come from

You claim that you are the true followers of the sunnah and islam, then give me proof for one thing: You might be aware that the title given to the leaders of the muslim's ruler was always "Ameer ul Mu'mineen" can you give me one proof from the quran or hadith that tell us that they used the innovative title of "Ameer-e-jamaat-ul-muslimeen" as is found in your literature or website.

You will again justify this bid'ah, as you are nothing but a muqallid of masood ahmed. Think and ponder brother. Is this ("Ameer-e-jamaat-ul-muslimeen") from the sunnah or from the sahabah? If its not, then jamaat ul muslimeen are not on the path of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and the sahabah, the saved sect. The sahabah used "ameer ul mu'mineen", and you use "Ameer-e-jamaat ul muslimeen" . I see a clear difference in words. Hopefully, inshallah you will see it to.

This is sufficient proof to me that masood ahmad was a mubtadi, and that this group is involved in bid'ah. And how can a group that practices bid'ah be the saved sect? How can a group that says that 'Jamaat ul muslimeen' is a name and that 'ameer-e-jamaat-ul-muslimeen' is the title given to the ameer, be a group on the path of the sunnah? You tell me!

If you cannot prove 'ameer-e-jamaat-ul-muslimeen' from the Quran and Ahadith, then according to your own standards of judgement, this is an innovation. Then the whole group becomes mubtadi'een. Come on, think. Look brother, pray to Allah to open your eyes to the truth.

Ask yourself one question: Will I leave this jamaat if i come to know that they are wrong and that they practice bid'ah? Think about it!

[edit] The usage of the term "Ahlus-sunnah wal jama'ah" can be traced back to the Sahabah

“On the Day when some faces will become white and some faces will become black; as for those whose faces will become dark (to them will be said): "Did you reject Faith after accepting it? Then taste the torment for rejecting Faith.” [Soorah Aali-Imraan, 3:106]

Ibn Abbaas and others have said regarding this verse, ‘The bright faces will be Ahlus-sunnah wal Jama'ah, and dark faces will be the Ahl ul bid'ati wal firqa.’”

‘Aj-jawaab as-saheeh’ (Vol.4, pg. 306-307) Also found in Tafsir ibn Kathir

Now why did Ibn Abbas come up with a title like this. This phrase "Ahlus-sunnah wal Jama'ah" is not found in the Quran or Sayings of the Prophet (peace be upon him). This is only found in the sayings of the sahabah. The term "Al jama'ah" which is a part of it can be traced to the Prophet (peace be upon him). This term "Ahlus-sunnah wal Jama'ah" was first coined by the sahabah to diffrentiate between the baatil firaq (Eg the Khawarij) at that time. To seperate from the "Ahl ul bid'ati wal firqa".

Now according to your standards, Ibn Abbas should be called a Mubtadi (nauzubillah)? right? Tell me man, he came up with a title that the prophet never used. Is he a Mubtadi. My answer is "No". He is not a mubtadi. These are the salaf of this ummah. Do you have more knowledge than Ibn abbas (may allah be pleased with him)?

Now since ibn abbas can use a new title to diffrentiate themselves from the Ahlul bid'ah, so can we. The sahabah are an example for us. Now, firstly, these days the word muslim is used by all sects including shia. There is no shia on earth who will say "I am not a muslim". Secondly even the term "Ahlus sunnah wal jama'ah" is used my the baatil firaq, eg Barelvi. So we need to diffrentiate here from bid'ah as well. Remember, the khawarij called themselves muslim and nothing else. They did not use the term Ahlusunnah wal jamaah like Ibn Abbas. So, according to your standards, you would join the khawarij and not the sahabah. Now read the article about Shaikh Albani on the word muslim on our website and it will make more sense. Inshallah.

[edit] Answer to the first question of the member of JM

You say that the word muslim must only be used, emphasis on >>!!ONLY!!<<

And i quote you, "Allah's Guidance is enough that (call yourself muslim only and nothing else)"

Emphasis on >>NOTHING ELSE<<... give proof for this "nothign else". you are lying in the name of Allah.

read this:

An-Nasa'i recorded from Al-Harith Al-Ash`ari from the Messenger of Allah , who said: (Whoever adopts the call of Jahiliyyah, will be one of those who will crawl on their knees in Hell.) A man said, "O Messenger of Allah, even if he fasts and performs Salah" He said, (Yes, even if he fasts and performs Salah. So adopt the call of Allah whereby He called you Muslims and believers (mu'mineen) and servants of Allah (ibad allah)

Now according to your aqeedah, only "Muslim" must be used, but the above hadith gives us two more names. Therefore you are wrong.

[edit] Answer to the second question of the member of JM

"According to you, was imam bukhari a mubtadi or righly guided (on the path of sunnah)?"

And you said, "Yes He was, and Infact all the Imam's of Third Generatios (Tabaieen or Taba Tabaieen)"

Now if he was rightly guided, then why did he have a chapter in the first volume of shaih al bukhari saying, "To give a fatwa while riding an animal or standing on anything else." and, "Whoever gives a fatwa by beckoning or nodding" Sahih al bukhari, Vol 1 Chapter 24 and 25 Ahadith 83-86.

Now according to you, "...Fatwa and Ijtihad of early & present Scholars etc...they conisder these new ideas as Bid'ah (innovation) in religion and openly Shirk (i.e. making association in Allah's Decreed Divine Laws)..."

According to you there is no room for fatwas in Islam at all, and that these ideas from "early & present Scholars" are Shirk and bid'ah.

The above chapters of sahih al bukhari, clearly talk about Fatwas and how they can be given. Now according to your standards, Imam bukhari has committed shirk and bid'ah (nauzubillah) since he has presented the idea about fatwas. Now tell me, was Imam bukhari right or worng?

Now leave aside Imam bukhari, come to sahih muslim. I have a hadith which proves that fatwas are a part of islam and the understanding of the Sahabah and the salaf who followed them:

حدثنا ‏ ‏إسحق بن إبراهيم ‏ ‏وعبد بن حميد ‏ ‏واللفظ ‏ ‏لعبد ‏ ‏قالا أخبرنا ‏ ‏عبد الرزاق ‏ ‏أخبرنا ‏ ‏معمر ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏الزهري ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي سلمة ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏جابر ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏إنما ‏ ‏العمرى ‏ ‏التي أجاز رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏أن يقول هي لك ‏ ‏ولعقبك ‏ ‏فأما إذا قال هي لك ما عشت فإنها ترجع إلى صاحبها ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏معمر ‏ ‏وكان ‏ ‏الزهري ‏ ‏يفتي به

"Jabir (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Umra for which Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) gave sanction that a person way say: This (property) is for you and for your descendants. And when he said: That is for you as long as you live, then it will return to its owner (after the death of the donee). Ma'mar said: Zuhri used to give religious verdict (fatwa) according to this." [Sahih Muslim - Book 012, Number 3975]

Arabic word "‏ ‏ "يفتي Translated "religious verdict" - Fatwa

[edit] Why i call you masoodi

You see, the arabic language, like any other language uses short terms to describe things that, in other ways would require a lot of words.

Eg: Instead of saying: "a person who is a resident of India", I say, "an indian"

like wise:

a person who submits his will to allah - a muslim

a person who is a citizen of canada - a canadian

a person who follows the usool ul fiqh of Imam ahamd ibn hambal - a hambali

a person who follows the quran and hadith according to the understanding of the first three generations of muslims, the salaf - a salafi

And also

a person who blindly believes what masood ahmed says - a masoodi

a person who follows islam according to the understanding of masood ahmed - a masoodi


[edit] My questions

Just so that you don't forget here are the questions again:

Q.1) What is a person who is not a member of Jamaat-ul-muslimeen? a) Muslim b) Kaafir

Q.2) How does a person become a muslim?

Q.3) When did the Khilafah (started by the sahaabah) end?

Q.4) What did the people become after that (the end of that Khilafah)? a) Muslim b) Kaafir

Q.5) According to you, was imam bukhari a mubtadi or righly guided (on the path of sunnah)?

Q.6) Give proof for the title "Ameer-e-jamaat-ul-muslimeen"

Q.7) Can a group be the saved sect if it practices bid'ah?

Q.7) What are salafis? a) Muslim b) Kaafir

[edit] Omair’s reply to all the above

[edit] Omair's Reply to the usage of “ahlus sunnah wal jama’ah”

Bro! don't go too far first see if this hadith is true or Not (You Blind Follower).....There are many reason I don't beleive in this Hadith: 1. There is a Disambiguation (Ikhtilaf) in the text (Matn) of this Hadith, First Hadith is mentioned in Ibn Qayam's Book (Aj-jawaab as-saheeh) where the Word "Ahl-us-Sunnah" is mentioned, and in the Ibn Katheer's Tafseer (of Holy Qur'an) the word "wa al-Jammah" added to the text, so which one is the Truth, first one or the second?? and in my view the word has been added, so both them are fake near to me. 2. Both of them (Ibn Qayam and Ibn Katheer) did not mentined the sanad of this Hadith, for this reason it's also make it fake near to me and does not reach to Sahabi (Ibn Abaas, Radhi Allah anhu) 3. and just for the sake of argument, if suppose we consider it to be Sahih, It is not a title...but a discription of Muslims who are on the path of the prophet (Ahl Sunnah) So your whole assumption (whether it become this or that , blah blah blah) is baseless, if you can give prove of this hadith Sanad with its athentication... then we will see....and I know you can't do that because you are a muqalid (Blind follower) of these Scholars (Ibn Qayam, Ibn Katheer)...but for me "Sahih Hadith is my Madhab (As Imam Shafai said)" :)

[edit] Omair's Reply to the salafi’s answer on using other names like “mu’mineen

That just great....you just take everyting to the other direction......read that question again.... "Every Believer of Islam must call himself Muslim only and any other names like Sunni, Shi'a, Hanafi, Shafi`i, Maliki, Hanbali or Wahhabi, Ahle Hadith or Salafi etc., are not proven in Islam and are not acceptable." i meant that the names that are used to define themselves as like saying "i'm sunni, shia, salafi, etc etc.." instead of calling himself "I am MUSLIM". where did this is mentined in the hadith that call yourself salafi OR all the names that are mentioned above? Don't just change the lane....I know your batil-ways....who even cannot prove me one-thing that i mentioned. I advice you....leave those batil acts and aqaaid that you do...and be like a believer that will be better for you.

[edit] Omair's Reply to the word “fatwa” used in books of ahadith

you said somthing about title thing of Imam Bukhari's Jami My response: That is just Imam Bukhari's Opinion and remeber that I don't believe in anybody's opinion...I'm the belever of Hadith Read those Ahadith (#83 to #86 of Kitaab al-Wahi), there is not a single word metioned about fatwa. Second, I did not call Imam bukhari a mubtadi .... that is just your assumption....i don't know how people get all those negativity ;) You said: "Now leave aside Imam bukhari, come to sahih muslim. I have a hadith which proves that fatwas are a part of islam and the understanding of the Sahabah and the salaf who followed them" Brother! I think you need Thik glasses to differentiate what is a hadith or what is not, the Hadith goes like this: حدثنا ‏ ‏إسحق بن إبراهيم ‏ ‏وعبد بن حميد ‏ ‏واللفظ ‏ ‏لعبد ‏ ‏قالا أخبرنا ‏ ‏عبد الرزاق ‏ ‏أخبرنا ‏ ‏معمر ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏الزهري ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي سلمة ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏جابر ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏إنما ‏ ‏العمرى ‏ ‏التي أجاز رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏أن يقول هي لك ‏ ‏ولعقبك ‏ ‏فأما إذا قال هي لك ما عشت فإنها ترجع إلى صاحبها ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏معمر ‏ ‏وكان ‏ ‏الزهري ‏ ‏يفتي به Hadith end at: "فإنها ترجع إلى صاحبها" and after this Imam Bukhari give his Commentry that: "قال ‏ ‏معمر ‏ ‏وكان ‏ ‏الزهري ‏ ‏يفتي به" meaning "Ma'mar said: Zuhri used to give religious verdict according to this (Hadith)" Now, Here Imam Bukhari said, Ma'amar bin Rashid (a Well know Scholar) said that Imam Al-Zuhri (Muhammad bin Muslim bin Ubaidallah al-zuhri, also well know scholar of Hadith) used to give his judgment according to this hadith.....so now what we get here (my salafi boy) another Imam's opinion (fatwa).....where does this Hadith mentioned that Prophet or Sahaba Did??? Brother Don't just copy-and-paste stuff....its useless for you....don't try to teach arabic here, if you don't understand Arabic....learn Arabic first...: you said: "Arabic word "‏ "يفتيTranslated "religious verdict" - Fatwa here you have another mistake, The arabic Word "‏ "يفتي means: He give a fatwa, OR giving fatwa NOT just Fatwa One more thing I want to mention....which you have confusion about....If somebody mention just Ahadeth in his fatwa (Which i personally dont call it a FAWTA) I will belive it, BUT if there is a opinon involved then I won't take it, because I don't want to do taqleed, and if i take anybody's opinion so blindly it'll leads me to do shirk (and you know the destiny of doing shirk). That is all what I meant in the Article.....but you just want to take everthing to other direction. Here are those words:

[edit] Omair - Giving Fatwa (opinion of the matters of deen) OR Taking it blindly is not a part of Islam

there is a Hadith of Abdullah ibn Masood: once a person come to him to ask something which he did not find answer from Kitaab Allah (Quran + Hadith) the person insist him, but He said: You want me to give verdict which I didnt find from the Prophet" (meaning I cannot say any thing about which there is no mention from the Prophet) Similar was the attitude of Imam Hasan al-basri... when people come to him and asks him some Questions....He says exactly what Abdullah ibn masood said. I just metion this for you.....because you claim to follow Salaf us Salih....so you can see even those sahaba cannot have right to give opinion on their on and even Prophet did not have the rights to give any opinion on Divine Laws (excepts Allah grant him).....then where does the present day scholar get the rights to give fatwas on the matter of deen? They are not the Law-maker, It is only Allah's Right [may Allah save us from such people - Ameen]

[edit] Omair's Reply on being called “masoodi”

What a silly person you are....So now according to your understanding (brainwashed).....I assume if now anybody convert from any other religion by your dawah ....We would call him Yousufi ??? .....what a great crap..... keep it all this nosense to yourself.....it will help you in the Akhirah :)........ One more thing.....as you said "a person who submits his will to allah - a muslim" So, Remember that: نحن له مسلمون (We are among the MUSLIMS) meaning submiting ourselves to Islam (Submission to the will of almighty Allah) NOT TO ANYBODY ELSE (wether that would be Bukhari, Albani, Bin Baz....Masood Ahmad....etc. etc.)

[edit] Younus's questions and Omair's reply

Q.1) What is a person who is not a member (part) of Jamaat-ul-muslimeen? a) Muslim b) Kaafir Prophet Muhammad (saw) Said: "If a person leaves Jamah (of Muslims), as he have leave Islam from His Neck" [Mustdarak Al-Hakim] I provided the Hadith...you do the Math :)

Q.2) How does a person become a muslim? Don't you know: OK I'l mentioned it again...just a reminder for you By giving up and submtting to the will of Allah, with its fullness......then say Shahdah (testemony of Faith) with Bayah to Ameer of the Muslim (meaning Jamaat ul Muslimeen)...because there is no way in Islam to live a individual life....Islam teaches unity (Jamaah)..and that only be happen if we live as jammah and appoint an Ameer over us. that is why Prophet said: If a person leaves Jamaat....even the size of palm....it means throughing out Al-Islam from his neck (Mustadrak al-Hakim)

Q.3) When did the Khilafah (started by the sahaabah) end? According to the Hadith of the Prophet there will be 12 Caliphs.. so The Last Khalifah was Umar bin Abdul-Aziz and His period was ended in 720 C.E.

Q.4) What did the people become after that (the end of that Khilafah)?a) Muslim b) Kaafir Allah knows best...I don't have Ilm-Al-Ghaib

Q.5) According to you, was imam bukhari a mubtadi or righly guided (on the path of sunnah)? He was Rightly Guided (i don't know why you repeat one thing over and over again)

Q.6) Give proof for the title "Ameer-e-jamaat-ul-muslimeen" It is in Urdu Man!, how can i give proof which is not arabic word....and it is just means "Main Leader of Jamaat ul Muslimeen"....what is wrong in that....how can it be a bidah?? Can you give me proof of these words that we used everyday from Hadith: URDU................ ARABIC............ENGLISH Namaaz.............. Salat............ Prayer Roozah.............. Saum............. Fasting Muslamaan...,,...... Muslim........... Muslim Qurbani............. Zabihah.......... Scrificial Animal No? it is just terminologies that we use....to be comfortable with when having conversation and to calling someone. I know what you gonna say....you will say....That's is why we call ourselves Salafi (Albani's Fatwa)....differentiating with firqah.... What is better to differentiate..then Calling ourselves Muslims...and to say I'm in Jamaat ul Muslimeen vs. Jamaat ul Tafuriqeen (jamaat us Salafi, Jamaat Islami, Ahle Sunnah wal jamma, Ahle Tashee' etc. etc.) Batil will themselves freak-out....they will think...Hey! We are also muslim..... My point is if you are muslim then why not Call yourself and Acts upon it. If we made division....then we would surely have sub divisions also, as it is the case of this ummah.....why not just go back to that which we were at time of Prophet, "One United Jamaat" (Jamaat ul Muslimeen)...Islam teaches uniterianism....there is no place in Islam for Individualism. I want to say break all the Idols that have been created in the Name of Islam and come back to jamaat ul muslimeen.

Q.7) Can a group be the saved sect if it practices bid'ah? Prophet said: کل بدة ضلالة و ضلالة فی نار (ابوداؤد و ترمزی)۔ all Bidahs are misguidance, every misgiudance leads you to Hellfire (that is clear and open n' Shut case) Now i don't know How Salafi Mullahs give fatwa on This ;) ..... for you they have some kind of special rights? ;)

Q.8) What are salafis? a) Muslim b) Kaafir 1. Where is the proofs of your Name (Salafi) and Aqaaids (i.e. Believeing blindly in Fatwa, Ijtiahdat, Qayas of early & present scholars) from quran and Sunnah? 2. Allah knows best...I don't have right to Judge anybody....Judgment is only belongs to Allah....I can only do Islah between people (امر بالمعروف ونہی المنکر)...(mentioning what is good....stoping from evil) that is all.

[edit] Omair's Reply that he will never leave jamaat ul muslimeen

You said:Ask yourself one question: Will I leave this jamaat if i come to know that they are wrong and that they practice bid'ah? Think about it! My respons: At this moment i remeber a hadith menetined in Sahiheen (Bukhari and Muslim) that Prophet Muhammad (may Allah be peace and blessing on him) said: "there will be time when caller of the gate of Hell-fire will call you......whoever respond to their call ....they will through him into the fire" one more thing I want to say....We have been thought "if you see any wrong in Ameer, Scholar, Nas (people) .....mentioned there mistakes and all of them have to accapts that if that is a mistake...because we are not Divine and we are prone to do mistakes....and Don't stick to it and debate about it....if it is a mistake or any wrong..Dont be like other jamaats..(Which includes you Salafiees too , and i know personally you guys stick to it if there comes an err, it is like a final verdict to you.....which is not a good attitude and kind of shirk)" Secondly, we don't just leave community (Jamaat) if there is an error....Leveing Jamaat means leaving Islam (Mustadrik of Al-Hakim)...and remeber that Islam is a whole system (deen, way of life).... it is not a GAME.....where you just through all out...and become murtad.....Naah....I don't think so....

[edit] Younus said: Can't stop laughing

hahhahahahahahahahahahahah. Thanks for the answers! You have made my job really easy. Im preparing an extensive answer. That will be my last one. I can smell that you are a sure shot blind follower of Masood Ahmad. I can't believe that peolpe can be so ignorant. Sheesh!

Its gonna be the last one becuase I don't argue with the Mubtadi'een (innovators). Your replies have clearly exposed you, that you are not here to defend the 'Quran and ahadith' or 'Islam'. you are here to defend 'Masood Ahamd's' understanding of islam You are here NOT to learn the truth, but to defend baatil. You are nothing but a "Sarkash Shaitan" like many of the Masoo'diyyah. To you, this jamaat is your 'perfect' little world, and you cannot even hear a single word against it. Atleast the others sects a a lot better than you in this regard.

Just wait for my last reply which will clearly expose your kufr and misguidance to the world. Someone righty said something like, "Badhe azeem maqsad ke sath uththi hai jamaat, par bad main maqsad hi jamaat hojata hai."

This can't even apply to the masoodiyyah, since the don't have a good maqsad as well. hahahahahhahahahhahah

Tell me if you were joking!!!! Hahahahahahahahahah

[edit] Younus asked: Why have you deleted some of my posts

i see that you don't have the guts to answer everything i asked and refute everything i said. You deleted some posts including "The imam bukhari thing". Why? You chicken? hahahahhahhahah just wait for my answers... it will expose your misguidance to the world, not to yourself. It will never open your eyes but it will open the eyes of the silent spectators. I am not doing this because i want you to become a "salafi" or get on the right path. I just want to expose you to the world. And thanks for your answers! Its really helping me. PS: still can't stop laughing at your ignorance. Hahahahahahahahahahaha

[edit] The person who understands islam according to the understanding of the salaf (salafi) said regarding masoodi’s reply

Now lets begin. First of all I’d like to say that I can’t thank you enough for the answers. You have given me quite a considerable number of sticks to beat you with. Here is my final refutation for all your foolish assumptions and refutations.

[edit] Younus said - Jamaat ul muslimeen has been exposed yet again

[edit] point # 1

You removed a lot of things from my explanations, and you completeley ignored it. Why?? Are you chicken or what? One of them was "The imam bukhari thing" Don't worry you coward! I'll include it again for the world to know what you are trying to hide from it. You are exposing yourself to the world yet again.

[edit] Point # 2

Why do you accept what goes with your aqaid and reject whatever goes against masood ahmad's understanding?

Ibn Abbas said: "The bright faces will be Ahlus-sunnah wal Jama'ah, and dark faces will be the Ahl ul bid'ati wal firqa."

Now according to the foolish usool of Jamaat ul muslimeen, they "Do they own research" on Ahadith. I quote your website again, "We refer to all books but it is not necessary that we might agree to a hadith which Albani or anyone etc declared Sahih or dhaeef, we do our own research."

Tell me brother. According to your "own research" is this hadith saheeh or dhaeef or maudoo or what?

You say that, "It is not a title...but a discription of Muslims who are on the path of the prophet (Ahl Sunnah)". Who said so? Tell me! Give me one proof that says that Jamaat ul muslimeen is a name and this (ahlus sunnah wal jama’ah) is not! You previously said that, "AND ONE MORE THING WHO TOLD YOU THAT JAMA'AT AL MUSLIMEEN IS A NAME."

Don't contradict yourself.

According to your own standars, if there is an "ikhtilaf" in the matn, then the hadith can be rejected. hahahahahahah. Are you a muhaddith or what??? You ignorant man! listen to this:

The jamaat ul muslimeen quote a hadith from bukhari stating something like "During eid prayers women should pray with the 'jamaat al muslimeen'."

Did you know that in another version of the same hadith, instead of the phrase 'jamaat al muslimeen', we have 'Da'wat al muslimeen'? Will you reject this hadith, you phony muhaddith.? Don't try to give sanad to a hadith without knowledge. You are being a pakka muqallid of the "Jaahil e akbar" masood ahmad.

[edit] Point # 3

you said, "but for me "Sahih Hadith is my Madhab (As Imam Shafai said)" :) Who is telling you that these ahadith are sahih? Why are you blindly following these muhadditheen? These muhadditheen include things like "Fatwa" in the books of ahadith, which according to your aqaid is bid'ah and Shirk. How can you take ahadith from a mubtadi or mushrik (nauzubillah).

I quote the hadith from imam muslim again, "Jabir (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Umra for which Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) gave sanction that a person way say: This (property) is for you and for your descendants. And when he said: That is for you as long as you live, then it will return to its owner (after the death of the donee). Ma'mar said: Zuhri used to give religious verdict (fatwa) according to this." [Sahih Muslim - Book 012, Number 3975]

Is something wrong with imam muslim's aqeedah? Why is he including the word fatwa if this is bid'ah and shirk? Remember according to the science of ahadith, a hadith from an innovator cannot be accepted. I am NOT claiming that the word "fatwa" is the word of the prophet. What I am saying here is that imam muslim used this word and is he a mubtadi now?

Are Imam muslim and the narrators in this hadith mubtadeen? Since they include the word “Fatwa”, which according to your own usool, is bid’ah and shirk?

If you say that they are not Mubatadineen (and you said that several times), then this is not a bid’ah. That is having the concept of “Fatwa” is not wrong and is Islamic. It is not Bid’ah. If you accept it as Bid’ah, then these muhadditheen will become mubtadi’een as they have promoted this concept of bid’ah.

[edit] Ponit # 4 READ THIS REAL CAREFULLY

You said regarding names other than muslim, "i meant that the names that are used to define themselves as like saying "i'm sunni, shia, salafi, etc etc.." instead of calling himself "I am MUSLIM". where did this is mentined in the hadith that call yourself salafi OR all the names that are mentioned above?"

Im gonna combine a couple of your arguments here to disprove you. You said that the usage of the terms in urdu is ok. like namaz roza..blah blah. And you justified the innovatin of "Ameer-e-jamaat-ul-muslimeen"

Why??? I thought jamaat ul muslimeen only follows the quran and ahadith and does not come up with new things. You said that, "where did this is mentined in the hadith that call yourself salafi OR all the names that are mentioned above?" I ask you the same thing, "where did this is mentined in the hadith that call the ameer as "Ameer-e-jamaat-ul-muslimeen" and not "Ameer ul mu'mineen" as is proven from the ahadith.

Sahabah used: Ameer ul Mu’mineen You use: Ameer e jamaat ul muslimeen

I see a clear difference from the path of the sahabah. You are a blind follower of masood ahmad, that is why you justify this.

Is this some new aqeedah that you can innovate names in urdu as you like, but not in the arabic language. According to masood ahmad in one of his books, the term "musalman" must not be used. Where do you get these new laws from. "Ahle hadith" "Jamaat-e-islami" is also urdu man! Does that make it right?

Don't try do defend your jamaat here. You have clearly stated, ""Every Believer of Islam must call himself Muslim only and any other names like Sunni, Shi'a, Hanafi, Shafi`i, Maliki, Hanbali or Wahhabi, Ahle Hadith or Salafi etc., are not proven in Islam and are not acceptable."

You say that Ahle hadith is not acceptable, but this is urdu man.

So why is an urdu term “Ahl e hadith” a bid’ah and not acceptable, while the urdu term “Ameer-e-jamaat-ul-muslimeen” acceptable?

Think and ponder, get in touch with your leaders as you did last time and get another innovative answer to justify your bid'ah.

Therefore, it is clear that "Ameer-e-jamaat-ul-muslimeen" is not proven from the quran and ahadith and therefore is an innovation. If you say that it is not an innovation, then all the other urdu names will also be acceptable.

[edit] Point # 5

You said, “there is a Hadith of Abdullah ibn Masood: once a person come to him to ask something which he did not find answer from Kitaab Allah (Quran + Hadith) the person insist him, but He said: You want me to give verdict which I didnt find from the Prophet" (meaning I cannot say any thing about which there is no mention from the Prophet)”

This clearly means that to give a fatwa based on quran and ahadith is OK. To give fatwa based on your own desires is wrong. This is what it means.

Abdullah ibn masood did not tell that person that “Why are you asking fatwa? It is bid’ah!” This is what you say. The sahabah gave fatawa based on quran and ahadith.

Forms of unacceptable fatwas or sayings:

Saying something that has no basis in Islam, whether you call it a fatwa or not is totally wrong and haraam. Eg: Saying that “jamaat ul muslimeen is the name” like you website says is haraam as it has no basis. Whether you call it fatwa or not it is haraam.

[edit] Younus – The finale

This is what I enjoy most about bashing the Masoodiyyah. I can’t believe that you answer these questions without even reading my website. I have a whole debate there. Had you ever read that, then you would never have ever replied this way. hahahahahahah

Here is an analysis of the answers you gave me for my questions:

[edit] Q.1) What is a person who is not a member (part) of Jamaat-ul-muslimeen? a) Muslim b) Kaafir

You said, “Prophet Muhammad (saw) Said: "If a person leaves Jamah (of Muslims), as he have leave Islam from His Neck" [Mustdarak Al-Hakim] I provided the Hadith...you do the Math :)”

It is pretty clear to the world what you mean here. Thank you for exposing your kufr here. You are indirectly calling other people kaafir. You are just too afraid t use the word. You don’t know proper English. I gave you two choices, there is no third thing. But now the world knows what is in your hearts.

Now read this..according to you:

When Ali (may allah be pleased with him)was the khalifa: he was "jamaat ul muslimeen"

The khawarij during his times: they were a firqa who is not a part of the Jama'ah

You say that everybody besides you is not muslim , this goes against the manhaj of Ali (may allah be pleased with him) who was asked about the Khawarij. He was asked, “Ahum kuffar?” [are they (the khawarij) kaafirs?] And he replied, “La, farruhum minal kufr” [No! they are trying to run away from it]

When Ali (may Allah be please with him) never declared them as kaafirs, even though they were not a part of the Khilafah, then who are you to declare everybody else as kaafirs?

And the khawarij, on the other hand, used to call everybody else besides them as kaafirs. Exactly like you do today.

You are more like the khawarij, rather than Ali (may allah be pleased with him).

You decide whose manhaj you are on.

[edit] Q.2) How does a person become a muslim?

You said: “Don't you know: OK I'l mentioned it again...just a reminder for you By giving up and submtting to the will of Allah, with its fullness......then say Shahdah (testemony of Faith) with Bayah to Ameer of the Muslim (meaning Jamaat ul Muslimeen)...because there is no way in Islam to live a individual life....Islam teaches unity (Jamaah)..and that only be happen if we live as jammah and appoint an Ameer over us. that is why Prophet said: If a person leaves Jamaat....even the size of palm....it means throughing out Al-Islam from his neck (Mustadrak al-Hakim)”

You saying here, “Bayah to Ameer of the Muslim (meaning Jamaat ul Muslimeen)...” is a condition for becoming a muslim. I say you have innovated in Allah’s deen.

You have no proof. The hadith which you quote is actually misquoted . It is “removing the rope of islam from his neck” This is applies to khalifah and not to any stupid fool who stands up and says “I am Ameer give me bai’yah”

Even then, this does not make a person a kaafir and here are several proofs:

1. the khawarij were not declared kaafirs by Ali, even though they did not give baiy’ah.

2. Ali did not give Bai’yah to Abu bakr for six months. Was he muslim or kaafir (nauzubillah) during those times.

3. Ameer Muawiyah bin abu sufyan did not give bai’yah to Ali. Did he become a kaafir (Nauzubillah)?

You have nothing to do with the manhaj of Salaf. You are a “pakka” Masoodi muqallid. That’s what you are. I don’t expect you to repent either as you are a sarkash shaitan.

[edit] Q.3) When did the Khilafah (started by the sahaabah) end?

You said, “According to the Hadith of the Prophet there will be 12 Caliphs.. so The Last Khalifah was Umar bin Abdul-Aziz and His period was ended in 720 C.E.”

This is definitely going to prove your kufr in the next point.

[edit] Q.4) What did the people become after that (the end of that Khilafah)?a) Muslim b) Kaafir

You said, “Allah knows best...I don't have Ilm-Al-Ghaib”

Well listen to this, according to you, the last Khalifah was Umar bin Abdul Aziz (or be it any other man for that matter), This Khilafah ended before the era of the great muhadditheen Eg: Imaam Bukhari and Imaam Muslim (May Allah have mercy on them).. Now, if a person says that "I do not know whether these muhadditheen were muslims or not" (as in effect you have) then he is "out of islam" because he in turn has rejected all the Ahadith which are based upon their authority. And a Non Muslim's hadith cannot be accepted.

Hence your aqeedah leads to kufr and your argument is baseless. The correct aqeedah is that they remained muslim because they have done a great job to preserve the message of Islam. Let me ask your ignorant jamaat this question: Were these muhaddithoon muslims or not? Because they certainly came after the 12 khulafa (or khalifas).

Just think, you said, “Allah knows best...I don't have Ilm-Al-Ghaib”. You are saying that you do not know whether the people who came after 720 C.E. were muslims or not. These people include,

All the major muhadditheen. Think ... think... think

Please ponder over your hopeless situation and if you feel cornered and can't answer, then fear Allah and seek his forgiveness. For you have indeed innovated in Allah's deen (religion).

If you come to your senses and say that, “yes! The people remained muslims” then it means that they (the people) remained muslim even after the end of Khilafah which means that khilafah (jamaat al muslimeen) is not a requirement to be a muslim and this proves that there were still muslims present at the time when Masood Ahmed formed his jamaat by taking bayah, which goes against the following saying of Umar (may Allah be pleased with him):

"Whoever gives the pledge of allegiance to anybody among you without consulting the other MUSLIMS, neither that person, nor the person to whom the pledge of allegiance was given, are to be supported, lest they both should be killed." Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 8.817 Narrated by Ibn Abbas.

This proves yet again that masood ahmad was far far away from the manhaj and aqeedah of Salaf us saliheen.

[edit] Q.7) Can a group be the saved sect if it practices bid'ah?

You said, ““Prophet said: کل بدة ضلالة و ضلالة فی نار (ابوداؤد و ترمزی)۔ all Bidahs are misguidance, every misgiudance leads you to Hellfire (that is clear and open n' Shut case) Now i don't know How Salafi Mullahs give fatwa on This ;) ..... for you they have some kind of special rights? ;)””

You don’t want to answer in yes or no. This is because you know deep down inside your heart that jamaat ul muslimeen practices bid’ah

Eg: “Ameer e jamaat ul muslimeen” is not proven from Quran and hadith. What is proven is “Ameer ul Mu’mineen”


Just look at your double standards! I asked you if you would leave this jamaat if they practice bid'ah, and you said that you will never leave them because of "errors"

You don't even wan't to use the term bid'ah for them. Whatever they do for you, you will just call it an error. And whatever other people do, you will call it bid'ah and shirk, and declare them as "out of islam"

I call this double standards. giving a blind eye to the bid'ahs of masood ahmad and his pathetic group. And pointing out every little thing from other groups. Sheeesh!!

You pathrtic justification of “Ameer e jamaat ul muslimeen”, gave me enough evidence of how deep your understanding of islam is. Infact now I come to think of it that , any person who is a part of the masoodyyah does not have the slightest of understanding of the correct perspective of islam.

[edit] THE END

From all the above, it can be clearly understood that the Member of jamaat ul muslimeen, i.e the Masoodi. Is not here to defend Islam, he is here to defend his jamaat.

He is not here to learn or read with an open mind, but just to hold on to something that is so dear to him. He thinks that “jamaat ul muslimeen” is the best thing that happened to him, and is now afraid to let go. He is a person who trusts a JAAHIL like “masood ahmad”, and does not trust Scholars like Ibn taymiyyah, ibn al qayyim, ibn kathir etc. Masood ahmad is the “akbar ul juhalaa’” who clearly gave his own opinions on Islamic matters, who also gave a fatwa saying, “Jamaat ul muslimeen is a name and whoever does not join us is a kaafir” who was believed by a sorry loser like our masoodi from W king Edward st. Vancouver, Canada. The muqallid of masood ahmad is the biggest sorry loser on the face of the earth.

“Allah says, “Wa iza khataba humul jahiloona qaloo salama” – Interpretation of the meaning – And when the jahiloon speak to them, they say ‘salama’.

“Salama” to you!

Haza billahi taufiq wa sallallahu ala nabiyyina Muhammad.

End of Debate

[edit] Need nuetrality

People stop fighting! Just give nuetral opinions, and if you are giving one sided opinios, then mention it that way. Like "Mainstream muslims opinion...", "Jamaat ul muslimeen's opinion regarding..." etc

Cheers!


[edit] Omair Said: FALSEHOOD JUST VANISHED

وَقُلْ جَاء الْحَقُّ وَزَهَقَ الْبَاطِلُ إِنَّ الْبَاطِلَ كَانَ زَهُوقًا

and Say: TRUTH has come and FALSEHOOD has vanished. Verily! FALSHOOD is ever bound to vanish.


قُلْ جَاء الْحَقُّ وَمَا يُبْدِئُ الْبَاطِلُ وَمَا يُعِيدُ

Say: The TRUTH has come, and FALSEHOOD shows not its face and will not return.


صُمٌّ بُكْمٌ عُمْيٌ فَهُمْ لاَ يَرْجِعُونَ

Deaf, Dumb and Blind; and they will not return


How beutifully it is mentioned that: "Whenever TRUIH comes, FALSEHOOD cannot able to stand in front of IT, FALSEHOOD just vansihed"

Let the whole world know the TRUTH....

you even cannot have guts to reply to me...you can just yell, cry, angry, swear....thats all you can do...and most of all cry in front of the whole world....that you have been defeated by a youngest muslim (whose support is only Qura'an and Hadith)....what is in your Support...guess what...SALAFI MULLAHS....ha..hA.HAA

[edit] Why Did I Delete All Posts

- because i couldnt able to write comments any more, because of the excesive file size...which stoping me to continue...so i have to delete all posts. But if you want to read previous stuff please goto The History section.

- And If in deleteing posts, i mised something..it is not because i don't want to answer to your Qs, but no, i think i did responded in your short Qs [because the same question repeated there also [e.g. like your "imam bukhari thing"]

[edit] = MY DELAY AND Younus'S DESPERATION

I think you assumes and make guesses alot...please don't do that... and please ask or mentioned it if I mised something. you assumes that i got these response from the Muslim's scholar, that is also not true...because I delayed my response and you think that I'm getting answers from scholars but NO, these are all my personal response to you...., why are you keep guessing...I was busy in my JOB, so I couldn't able to reply....please be patient...which is a good virtue. [Thank you]

[edit] My Typo Mistake

I'm sorry and apologizing for the mistake that i made in my article. which causes the doubt in your mind, in result of that you took it to other direction. I FIXED THAT MISTAKE.

What i meant in the article is that: "taking the new ideas like qayas, fatwa and ijtiahads of early and present scholars blindly is not proven in Islam and are not acceptable"

the word 'blindly' was mising in the article, so sorry for that. it take your whole time to defend it, which we both of us believes in, as you said:

"This clearly means that to give a fatwa based on quran and ahadith is OK. To give fatwa based on your own desires is wrong."

so as a matter of fact, we did not call it Fatwa, instead we call it '"solution for the problem from Quran and Hadith"', because Fatwa itself means religious verdict, which generally and mostly based on personal opinions and assumptions [qayas]. and as I said we avoid personal opinions, because it leads to-do SHIRK. and you also admit it in your response. [see above quote]

[edit] The Titles "Jamaat al-Muslimeen" Vs. "Ahl Sunnah wa Al-Jamaah"

First Point:

Jamaat al-Muslimeen There are dozens of Sahih Ahadith which are the prove of the title/descrtiption/name/etc. etc of Jamaat Al-Muslimeen

-1. Sahih-al-Jami of Imam Bukhari, Sahih-al-Jami of Imam Muslim, Sunan of Imam Abu Dawud and Sunan of Imam At-Tirmidhi

فيشهدن جماعة المسلمين ودعوتهم

تلزم جماعة المسلمين وإمامهم....فاعتزل تلك الفرق كلها

-2. Masanad of Imam Ahmad, Sunan of Imam Al-Dharimi

لزوم جماعة المسلمين فإن دعوتهم تحيط من ورائهم

Note: All the Above Ahadith are Sahih (Authentic) with dfferent chain of Narrations so the title/name/expression can be derived according to these Ahadith.

Ahl Sunnah wa Al-Jamaah

as you can see, For the support of title/expression/name/etc. of "Jamaat al-Muslimeen" the whole collection of Hadith are out there, and can be trace back to Prophet, and even expresses by the Prophet's own Tounge. but for the title '"Ahl Sunnah wa Al-Jamaah"' there is even not a single hadith to prove from. and the Hadith you mentioned is without sanad and without any authentic sources.

you asked: "Tell me brother. According to your "own research" is this hadith saheeh or dhaeef or maudoo or what?"

To which i did replied before but here it again in case of you mised it. these are the following reasons that don't believe it to be true:

1. There is a Disambiguation (Ikhtilaf) in the text (Matn) of this Hadith, First Hadith is mentioned in Ibn Qayam's Book (Aj-jawaab as-saheeh) where the Word "Ahl-us-Sunnah" is mentioned, and in the Ibn Katheer's Tafseer (of Holy Qur'an) the word "wa al-Jammah" added to the text, so which one is the Truth, first one or the second?? and in my view the word has been added, so both them are fake near to me.

2. Both of them (Ibn Qayam and Ibn Katheer) did not mentined the sanad of this Hadith, for this reason it's also make it fake near to me and does not reach to the Sahabi (Ibn Abaas, Radhi Allah anhu)

and you asked me to give creditibility whether this hadith is Sahih, Hasan, Dhaef... i give my explanation above regarding this hadith, but it is infact your responsibility to give me it's creditibility before put that hadith here. and you see I still gave my response.... now disision is yours....you still want to believe in this Fake Hadith or else give me it's whole sanad then we will see.

-2nd Point: AND FOR THE CHERECTERSITCS WISE Jamaat al-Muslimeen are "Ahl Sunnah wa Al-Jammah", but we avoid using this term because there is no proof from the hadith except for the term/title "Jamaat al-Muslimeen"

[edit] Term "Ameer e Jamaat ul Muslimeen

Acording to Hadith the term Ameer is used for the leader of Jamaat al-muslmeen not 'Ameer ul Momineen'. so in this sense he is "Ameer-e-Jamaat ul Muslimeen" We call him Ameer Sahib, Ameer e Jamaat, Ameer ul Muslimeen....But Still He's Our Ameer (Leader)..any porblem in this my salafi boy...so you see there is no Innovation (Bidah) involve....but if you think ......Ameer ul Momineen should be used...then there are many reason that we cannot use the title "Ameer ul Momineen"

- this title can only be used for Caliph, and since there is no Caliph, and according to Qur'an and Hadith, what muslim's need to do before Khilafah, is to Appoint an Ameer and live under his Authority and abide by it. so this is exactly what we are doing. No Innovation involve. everything according to Quran and Sunnah.

- We cannot call ourselves Momin (like Sheites do), Because According to Qur'anic Ayah, Allah, The Almighty says "Don't Call yourself Momin...Because Emaan is not Fully entered into your Hearts", this ayah was reveled When some Sahaba (new Muslims) entered into Islam and "Proudly said themselves we are Momin". So this ayah stoping them doing so, hence it is clear that we cannot use "Ameer ul Momineen". here one more point to be noted...only Caliph period is a Pure period of Islam, so since there is no Caliphate, and the period of ours is of Fitnah (tirbulations)..so According to the Qur'an and Hadith, we can only use what Prophet has Commanded us to use and i.e. "Ameer". [That's all]

[edit] Omair's Last Messege

if you get calm-down, let me ask you all those questions again...may be you can prepare some answers (or rightly say get some answers from Salafi Mullahs) this time:

-Where is the proof of the name Salafi from the Qur'an and Sunnah?

-Where does it mentioned in the Hadith that we must need to follow 3Gs (Salafs)? whereas Prophet said follow Quran and Sunnah and you will be successfull?

-Where does it mentioned that we need to take fatwa of the Scholar's blindly (by doing taqleed) instead of asking for proof from Qur'an and Sunnah?

-What is taqleed, is it a Shirk in Islam?

-Is it allow in islam to do Qayas in Allah's Deen, Where as Allah's Deen is Completed?

-Is it allow in islam to do a Fatwa in Allah's Deen, Wheere as Allah's Deen is Completed?

-Is islam teaches unity (Jamaat) or is it allowed to live a individual life (give proof from Qur'an and Hadith)?

-There is mentioned in the Sahih Hadith that "there will be 73 sects and all of them will be in Hell fire except on Jammah" so who are those 72 sects.or when they will apperar..if it is not the present day period of ours? like shia, sunni, ahl hadith, salafi, ahl quran, sufi, brelvi, deobandi, hanfi, shafai, malki, hanbli, NOI, Bahaullah, qadiyani, ismaili, naqshbandi, jamaat islami, Nation of Islam, Wahabi, Moorish Science, Five Percenters, Aghakhanis, Ansar Allah, Modernists, Reformed Muslims, etc etc etc......but where are the true MUSLIMS who just call themselves MUSLIMS and follow qur'an and sunnah??

I can give you One more chance....but remeber this time I don't need any Mullah, Scholar's or Imam's opinoin....I only need proof from Qur'an and Hadith

Peace

[edit] Cool down guys

Smithbarney65 is Right, "People stop fighting! Just give nuetral opinions" - Cool-down guys - see my post for detail, it might helps - Genuinos -

[edit] Genuinos is a troll

This guy is a troll. He is nobody but 24.86.93.4. He thinks he can fool the world. Sheesh!

[edit] tryng to remove the anti Jamaat ul muslimeen things

All his views that he previously wanted to show the world have been added in the article, but still he wants to remove the anti jamaat ul muslimeen things from it.


[edit] I feel sorry for you

This guy started editing wikpedia with different identifications, which can be seen here:

user names

Jmexposed

Younus.hk

IP Addresses

58.68.75.212

202.53.9.197

202.65.150.180

210.214.110.17

And now he thinks - everyone doing the same as he did.I shall say Stop editing wikipedia you Mr., You have no idea how to handle things here - you are here to just impose your views, we are telling you from the beginning "Please give neutral-point-of-view", but you did not listened what we said.

Cheer-up man, this is our last warning to you, after this you will be banned completely from editing wikipedia. - Genuinos

[edit] unprofessional freako

Your unprofessional language itself is evidence that you are the memeber of jamaat ul muslimeen posing as some 'genuinos' (another one of his typos for genious). Who are you kidding pal?? Everyone who reads this article will know what a jerk you are. I challenge you to ban me even for a minute. You freako!

[edit] Don't worry Genuinos

He (slafi boy) is so pride of English language, he thinks that he's got it all by speaking another language (english), he's nothing but fooling himself. Genuinos keep it up for the good work - thanks

[edit] Well well well

ha ha ha ... the masoodi guy has lost it these days... He is talking to himself. The pathetic man that he is.. Crazy people talk to themselves...

Pagal apne aap se batein karta hai. (I'm mentionning this in urdu since you understand this).

Funny to notice the same mistakes in grammatical structure by genuinos and 24.86.93.4

Remember, with the label changed nothing will happen, you will remain masoodi. With the label of jamaat ul muslimeen, nothing will happen, you will remain a part of the 72 sects. See here

[edit] Your Dajl (deception)

I have everything you wanted to add to the article included but still you want to remove the anti JM things from it. Adding anti jm things also is acceptable according to wikipedia standards. In wikipedia, you can have both sides of the argument and not just one sided. You do not want your 'toli' to be exposed. but, alhamdulillah, all the discussion we had above is so good, that I have decided to put this up on my website soon, Inshallah.

[edit] you know what! Salafi Boy

at one side you said "I'm not gonna judge anyone here" and at the same time you said "me (muslim) hiding something about Jamaat al-Muslimeen"....is it not your judgement? or what do i say about it?, do you have ilm-al-Ghaib that i'm hiding something here?

By Allah and Allah knows better that I'm not hiding anything, because the things you mentioned in the article are not what they believe, you are just here for Anti-propogation or against jammat al muslimeen, because since you claims to be saved sect (which you are not) so here you think that there is nothing bigger then Salafism, and you also called everyone beside Salafism as Kafir.

One more thing you said "JM consider others beside them Kafir" Aztaghfir Allah min Dhalik, Hatha Bohtaan Azeemun...we DONOT CALL ANYONE KAFIR.. we know what the quran and hadith says about it ...BUT it is the biggest truth about you salafism and eveyone knows that you people (slafies) call openly everyone besides yourselves KAFIR. (and even you had mentioned it several times in your conversation with me and your website is filled with such notions...go back to your website and wikpedia history and see them by yourself) i can give you e.g. like as you said to me "your kufr is clear here", "JM's kufr is now clear" etc. and it is the same verbatum that SLAFI MULLAH uses in there speach every single day

"KUFR" (in otherword you are calling me KAFIR)

and you better know this Hadith:

"Whoever calls his brother "O Kaafir" then one of them is a Kaafir" [Muwatta of Imam Maalik]

Insha Allah...everyone will realize now who is crual and who is not

i can only say to myself "Ina Allah ma As-Sabireen"

[edit] study the usool of takfeer

If just using the word kufr means declaring someone as kaafir, then your literature has something exactly like this:

If you read your Urdu booklet "Faridha-e-ita'at-e-ameer" (The obligation of obedience to an Ameer), the same points have been mentioned on its back side in Urdu, with an extra point which says" Jamaat-ul-muslimeen kay paas jo kuch hai uska inkaar KUFR hai" which means that rejecting whatsoever you have is "KUFR". Aren't you doing the same?

Remember, there is a huge difference between saying, "You have done kufr" and saying "You are a kaafir". you are ignorant in matters of the usool of takfeer.

Also, denying that someone is "muslim" is equal to stating that he is "kaafir". When a person is not a muslim, what is he? There are only two categories.

According to me, any hanafi, shafi, hambali, ahle hadith would be a muslim.

No fool from all these groups will ever say, "I am a hanafi, and not a muslim". Show me one person who says so?

Any hindu, or christian who ask us what our religion is, nobody says, "hanafism, or salafism" we all say "muslim and islam"

Only is your fool's paradise, you think that people have stopped using these words.

But according to you, you said "If a person leaves Jamah (of Muslims), as he have leave Islam from His Neck" [Mustdarak Al-Hakim] I provided the Hadith...you do the Math :)"

You will never accept them as muslims, i know it. Not a single of your statements ever say that "others are also muslims".

[edit] final challenge

I challenge you to say, "the hanafis, shafis, malikis, ahle hadith are muslimeen also". If you fail to do so, then you are indeed guilty of takfeer.

I openly say that the Masoodiyyah are muslims, I never do takfeer. Even the khawarij were muslimeen according to my aqeedah. My aqeedah is that all the 72 sects are muslimeen. If a person is not a part of the muslim ummah, he is in other words a kaafir. Like the qaadiyaniyyah. They are not even a part of the 72 sects that will go to hell. They are kaafirs. Are hindus muslims? - No!. Are jews muslims? - No!. Are qadianis muslims? - No!. Are hanafis muslims? - Yes!.

So now I challenge you to say, "the hanafis, shafis, malikis, ahle hadith are muslimeen also". If you fail to say this, then indeed you are guilty of takfeer.


Not accepting them as muslims = accepting them as kaafirs. (keep this in mind and answer)


[edit] Younus has very Week understanding of Islam =

Brother! I think you have very weak understanding of Islam, First learn the meanings of Muslim and Kafir then pointing fingers on anybody-else I recall "We donot call anybody Kafir" but I can say they are not on Haq... Is it not fair to say that "they are going far away from truth" instead of calling Kafir, Mushrik etc.... but it is you guys who openly declares anyone beside yourself as kafir.

and then you said Kharjite were muslims, whereas Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) declared them "that they are going to destined in the hell-fire". as i said you have very weak understanding of Islam...you are talking all this of your own desires...without consulting with Quran and Hadith.

Now come to the point: Do Shafais, Malakies, Hanbalies Hanafies Ahle Hadith (Salafies) etc.., are Muslim?

you said: "Not accepting them as muslims = accepting them as kaafirs. (keep this in mind and answer)"

I have no right to judge anybody...it is only Allah, the just who can judge that who is muslim and who is not... but i can mention things that they do which are not according to the Qur'an and Sunnah: for e.g.:

They donot pray according to the Quran and Sunnah They call themselves by the names other than muslim They innovate many things in the name of Islam They do taqleed (blindly following) of religious scholars...which is shirk

keep this in mind that Just referring themselves with Ahl Sunnah wa al-jammah ... does not grant them pradise and similarly just reffering myself with Jamaat-al-Muslimeen and calling 'Muslim' doesnot grant me paradise...our actions must be according to the quran and sunnah...and which exactly was the last message of Prophet Muahammad (s.a.w) before he passed-away (peace be upon him). that "Stick to quran and to my sunnah and you will be successfull" but since time passes by people started innovate many things in the name of islam and people stick to on their own self-desires and leaved aside or ratther say throw islam from their lives and started to consider new things that they invented as Islam. everyone praying on their own ways and considering those things on Haq which are not Haq, only Haq is Quran and Haidith and NOTHING else.

If people leave all self-made or man-made ideas...and just apply Quran and Hadith then Insha Allah they will come to know what is truth and what is not. [and this is exactly what We did, we clashed, breaked all man-made ideas and revived everything that has been mentinoed in the Quran and Hadith] and now you accusing Us to be as Kafir, Khawarij, Mushrik.....i can only say Ina Allaha Ma As-Sabireen and nothing else. brother you love so much of being a Salafi or rather everyone love their way to be truth but the things that i mentinoed are all there, and I did find them myself too, some people worshiping the graves, other celebrating Prophet's birthday, et cetra. so and so forth, so many thing to say....list will go on and on.

I still say I dont care how much you accusing us, but Allah knows the truth, and I pray for you that May Allah guides you towards the truth - Ameen

Salam Alaikum

[edit] Thanks

Thanks for the answer. It has strenghtened my argument.

PS: "Week" understanding...pha hahahhahahah


[edit] Omair's Reply

You are BIG LIAR .... the things you had mentioned about Jamaat al-Muslimeen are all FALSE statements, except few.

Brother I ask you, Do know anthing about Dajjal??

Br. DONOT DO LEG-PULLING....Fear Allah

Peace

[edit] Salafism Exposed - They call Jammat al-Muslimeen as Dajjal (Anti-Christ)

[edit] The Masoodi emails me saying

On 12/4/06, MUSLIM <superabdca@gmail.com> wrote:

your attitude of language itself a clear proof that you are Batil . . . if you were on Haq, then you will never speak in this manner, 'cause all the time you have fear of Allah (which you don't have right now)

your brains BURNS SO MUCH, that you cannot even see anything, that is why you CRY, YELL, and somtimes wierdly Laugh, I think you need to go to see DOCTOR, i think you have paranoid type of disorder.

Br. this is last warning from a Muslim, change your attitude, then you will gradually come towords Haq, otherwise you will die in the state that you are on today, and the religion you stick to never help you out, except ISLAM

lastly, I did not change anything except Jamaat ul Muslimeen's Reply to change back to Muslim's Reply . . . .

which your eyes didnot SEE, and you think i changed everything you have BIG problems, brother go and see doctor :)???

Peace

[edit] I (Salafi Muslim - Younus) replied

Why dont you say all this on wikipedia. I know why? You are just sick and tired of bieng exposed again and again with your jaahil answers to my questions. You are nothing more than a muqalllid of masood ahmad. Whatever he says is halaal is halaal for you and whatever he says is haraam is haraam for you. He said "jamaat ul muslimeen" is a name and other names are haraam. And you believed him blindly. He quotes quran and hadith and gives his "Own interpretation" and you blindly believe him.

I have proved you wrong with the last point in my debate. You will never accept other muslims in this world as muslims. A hanafi or hambali is not a muslim according to you. You failed to refute this. I challenge you to say once again that they are muslims and the debate ends there.

Say: "The Hanafis are also muslims" come on say this.

I personally have no fear in saying this. Hanafis are muslims and so are the masoodis, and the khawarij. I say this because I follow the manhaj of the sahabah. Ali (may allah be pleased with him) was asked about the Khawarij "Ahum kuffar" (are they kaafirs?). And he replied, "La, farruhum minal kufr" (No! they are running away from it).


Say: "The Hanafis are also muslims" come on say this.

Say: "The Hanafis are also muslims" come on say this.

Say: "The Hanafis are also muslims" come on say this.

I challenge you, you will never say this. Because according to you only members of Jamaat ul muslimeen are muslims and no one else.

Refute this masoodi boy Omair (from canada).

73sects.com

[edit] The Jamaat ul muslimeen member is a coward read on

I had a discussion with this guy thru chat, and we decided to chat up the coming friday. And this is what I get on friday (an email from Omair:

Unfortunatly, i will not be able to have CHAT with you today, because i'm scheduled this week, may be some other time (or next week same day) Insha' Allah, AND DONOT DELETE anybodies article....Genuinos did a great job in expending my article, don't be so foolish O.K. i don't know why do you have so much hate towards us.. is it because we put your madhab (religion of Slafism) in the list with others??...

and one more thing this is not my email address i borrowed from some body, that is why i put the Name "Muslim" Salam Alaikum'

He gave away his name (Omair) by mistake and now says that this was a borrowed email address. Who is he kidding? Oh yea he's right, email addresses are soooo hard to find these days. hahahahahah ;-) He is just a coward who can never debate face-to-face because he knows he will persih in front of the truth. This happens with all the members of JM when they are called for a debate.

Losers!

[edit] Salafism Exposed

Read What Hanafis Says about Salafis:

the Salafis do not represent Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah. They are a Protestant like group who says that last 1000 years of Muslims and Muslim scholars have had the wrong aqeedah and been misguided and now they are here to revive it as according to the Salaf. This is idiotic, I'm sorry. These people are a major cancer in this ummah. It is these types who do things like 9/11. Al-Albani said you can masterbate during your fast and wants the Prophet (saaw) dug up and moved somewhere. Bin Baz thinks the Earth is flat and stationary and that the sun revolves around it. These people are not authorities in the religion - or anything else. I could say a ton more as well. [Taken from a Forum]

Now what else I can say about you guys (Salafis) ...

now hanfies already hates you, and you are here to say they are on Haq . . . what a foolishness .. . .hahhaha

go refute them first then come here to talk about Muslims who are united and cannot leave Islam, but surly can leave man-made religions Salafism, Hanfism, Shafi-sim, Shia-ism, etc et cetra...

[edit] Learn english you freak!

The question is not whether someone is on haq or not. The issue is whether they are muslims or not. It is a fact by now that you do not understand English so well. What are we discussing all these days?

The khawarij were not on haq, but they were muslims. Being muslim does not mean that you are on haq. The firqa that will go to jannah will be muslims, and also the ones that will go to hell among the muslim ummah will also be muslims.

I dare you to say that, "The hanafis are muslims".

Come kid, dont be afraid. (like always). You coward and loser!


[edit] Omair's Reply

when you get stuck in responding me, and you try to say that i don't understan English, what a freako??

now you changed your mind, i was telling you from the beginning that, they are not on haq, and you accept it, what is a difference now have left.

not accepting them on haq = to not considering them true muslim, (only lip-service muslims)

and you said they are in muslim ummah, bro you are getting very old to understand islam, they are in ummat muhammadiya but not in Ummat al-muslimeen, because ummat al-muslimeen and Jamaat-al-Muslimeen are same thing.

which you don't understand.

i can see that (not only me but everyone can see that) what you are doing here that, change my subject line, my name, my comments, according to your desires, and also playing around with my article, which deeply inside your heart know are true islamic believes, but you just want to spread anti-agenda against muslims as much as possible, which you hate so much that you can't let go.

abuse me as you always do, but you never accept the reality. i advised you before to go to see doctor. YOU have BIG problems bro, Seriously, everyone's now laughing at you.


Peace

[edit] the truth about the article

Only the fools from jamaat ul muslimeen will laugh with you. But any sane person who reads this debate or discussion will, alhamdulillah, understand who had the last laugh. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.53.9.197 (talk) 15:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Masoodi Muslim's Reply - thank you for you answers

you said somthing: "But any sane person who reads this debate . ...."

I can help it but smile, of you kidi-ness (bacha pana)

Thank you, yet you have been exposed here again, Salafi kido —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.86.93.4 (talk) 00:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] well well well what do we have here

Looks like you finally learned some English from me. You are copying my style... but still a long way to go. Go to the oxford university if you can afford it, learn some English there for maybe 10 years, and then come and read the debate above. Then only will you understand who had the last laugh.

And try to get some originality in your comments, instead of just copying my style...

[edit] Omair's Reply

English is not a big language that i should be proud of, only brainwashed people like you, who can have taste of bitterness to enjoy foriegn lingo (Engl-ish), the Muslim language (Muslimeen ki Zabaan) is enough for me to have pride about. and secondly I can be proud to understand Arabic and which is the most important thing for me.

say what ever you want.

you will never be get out of Salafism (the religion of brainswashed).

on the other hand I will Insha Allah never leave Islam (as you wann't todo to give more pride to Iblees, a friend of yours)

Shalom Alechom - you salafi kid, the Friend of Jews

[edit] Ha ha

Arabic??? Who the hell says you know arabic? Had you known a little bit of arabic grammar only, leave alone the whole language, you would know that the term "Jamaat al muslimeen' is not a name. This is what the jaahil masood ahmad would preach his poochies, and they would blindly follow him. Islam is what is in the quran and ahadith, and it is only that which is understood according to the understanding of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and the sahabah. Whosoever gives his own interpretations to the quran and hadith is not following islam. However much you shout and claim that you follow islam, but you are only following the texts according to the understanding of masood ahmad. My invitation to you is to leave these foolish interpretations from men of recent times and go back to what the sahabah understood from the verses of the quran and the different ahadith.

Just claiming to follow quran and ahadith and quoting them out of context, without looking at the background, and without looking at how the sahabah understood them is what you do.

Alhamdulillah I am a MUSLIM, who follows Islam by the way of the sahabah, who are the salaf. You are also a MUSLIM according to my aqeedah. But you follow the quran and hadith according to the way of masood ahmad, who gave his own opinions without calling them a "fatwa" - the word which you hate.

Eg: #1 Masood ahmad says "Jamaat ul muslimeen" is a name

Never did the sahabah say that it is a name, where is your evidence?

  1. 2 Masood ahmad says that the hadith of hudhayfa bin al yamaan refers to our period today.

The sahabi hudhayfa himself says that the fitna will start after Umar (may allah be pleased with him) dies, and he calls umar a bab (door) between that time of good and the time of fitan.

Ps: No member of jamaat ul mulsimeen ever gave me a good historical explanation to that hadith, they are ignorant of this.

From the above two examples, and I can give a dozen more, it is clear that masood ahmad gives his own interpretations from the quran.

And one more thing dude. You said that, "they are in ummat muhammadiya but not in Ummat al-muslimeen,"

Can I ask you "Hatu burhanukum" - Give your daleel or proof for this statement. Where is it ever mentioned in the Quran and ahadith that the ummah will be into two parts

1) ummat muhammadiyya 2) ummat al muslimeen

I already know that you will not have a daleel for this. This came right out of your heart. A LIE like all the other lies of jamaat ul muslimeen. Come on kid, answer me.

Remember you are always deviating from the manhaj of the nabi (sallalahu alihe wasallam) and the sahabah. Because the sahabah never said the khawarij were kaafirs. Even the prophet stopped Khalid ibn waleed from killing the father of the khawaarif when he said to the prophet " O muhammad, fear allah!" When the sahabi stepped forward to kill him, the Nabi said "Don't kill him, maybe he prays..." In islam a murtad is supposed to be killed, but they were not considered murtads.

Instead, the khawarij called themselves muslimeen and nothing else. The term "Khawarij" was given to them by the Sahabah to diffrentiate them from the people of sunnah and "al jamaa'ah". The khawarij called themselves muslimeen only, and they considered themselves to be the ONLY MUSLIMS in the world and the rest as deviateed and kaafirs. Exactly like you do today.

So, we (the people who follow the manhaj of the sahabah) give you a title "Masoodiyyah" like the title "Kharijiyyah" which was given by the sahabah to the Muslims who were deviant at that time. Even though the khawarij did not call themselves khawarij, but they are the khawaarij.

Decide whose manhaj you are on. And yes, dont forget to give your daleel for the ummat muhammadiyya thing. Or else I have no choice but to label you a "masoodi liar"


[edit] SALAFISM EXPOSED – Muslim’s Finale – no more conversation

[edit] Salafi’s Way of Conversation:

Whenever he talks, he either says this,

You coward from jamaat ul muslimeen

OR sometime goes out of control, and say:

An asshole . .. keeps updating this page with Shit.

Then he say:

Shut up you masoodi...shut you shitting mouth up!!! you asshol

then you call me Jahil (un-educated, illiterate) but not only he stop there he goes on to say to a Muslim Scholar who he never met and had already passed-away, this salafi called him Jahail Akbar (Greatest un-educated, illiterate).

which then he deleted later on, for not to be exposed OR watched by others. But Brother Allah is watching you all the time, whether you deletes or let remained.

When I ask him why did you use abusive language: He said I get frustrated

It is clear that he’s not have patience.

[edit] Muslim’s Way of Conversation:

I never abused him, even a slightest, if for to say: Maximum to Max I said to Him “Salafi Boy” which is not a abuse. Because he claims to be “Salafi” and saying someone “boy” is not a crime.

Secondly, I always try my best to calm him down, and say:

Brother, Fear Allah

Brother Fear Allah

Brother Fear Allah

But No, he took everything in his hand . . . and thinks that abusing someone is greater then respecting them. Even after knowing the consequences [and he knows what that persone called in Islamic terminology “who after knowing the truth and denying after it or rejecting it”]

Finally:

It is the biggest proof one can see How Muslim has been thought when it comes to treating others, always be with the respectful manner and calm and with patience.

On the other hand, this Salafi, who is brought-up to take arms in his hand all the time (like Extremist Salafis), whether it is physical weapon or internal, he is not afraid to use it, Meaning, whether having conversation with someone, or practically in the field. He is not afraid (fearing of Allah) to use it.

[edit] Now Finaly, I come to you Salafi Boy [I’m sure you have had read all of the above comments]

It is clear that you are not on Haq, because if you were, you will never, talk and behave in this manner, and now you everyone can see what you were doing. Who has last laugh or not laughed doenot make sense. Yet you have been exposed to everyone, and Allah, the almighty is already Watching you.

[edit] Messege of Islam

it is not religion made by any Human being but A Deen (Religion, Way of Life) set out for Human beings by Allah, The al-mighty. your effert or my effort to bring people toward Haq. doesnot helped out, If Allah wills, no human being, gets away from His Truth.

We muslim's did not create anything in Islam (creating thing is an Innovation (Bidah), We just followed what has been revealed by the Allah and said by His Prophet.) Being united as Muslims means (Jamaat al-Muslimeen) and nothing else. you guys united as Salfis meaning (jamaat as-Salafiyah) it must be clear now to you who is on Haq or who is not. and This is the commandment of Allah, that "Stick to the rope of Allah and be not devided" (al-Qur'an)

Im still praying for you

Muslim Saying: May be after this my Final Reply, you might change your attitude.

Brother try to love poeple, This was and is the Messege of Islam.

Salam – peace

[edit] jaahil e akbar

I never deleted it. I still say openly to the world. Masood ahamad was a jaahil e akbar.

As far as the abusive language is concerned, I apologize for that again. I accept my mistake there. It is high time you accept yours. I will not try to defend my stance just to keep myself head and shoulders above you. Please for Allah's sake read what is below and answer the questions. Do not, for Allah's sake, delete them. If a person asks you a question about Islam, you must answer it if you know, or say frankly that you don't know. This is true humility. If you cannot answer them, then think. Think bro, where did you grow wrong. Do you truly believe that Masood ahmad was perfect and that he could never make a mistake? This would be similar to the aqeedah of the shias, who believe that thier Imams are Infallible. I am sure you do not believe that. It would be truly humble of you to accept graciously that masood ahmad was human and that he could also make mistakes. All you have to do is study what Masood Ahmad and his opponents say in the light of the understanding of the sahabah. This is because both the groups quote the Quran and Hadith. The understanding of the Sahabah is the only thing that can diffrentiate betwwen the right context and the wrong context.

[edit] I'll let you in on a little secret

Bro, I was also a member of Jamaat ul muslimeen. A very staunch supporter of it. I was a part of them for a brief period. During that time i stopped praying behind every other group. I was commanded by the leadership here to do so. But then as soon as I was given proof of thier Misguidance, I left them. I found them doing bid'ah in religion. Eg: I see them making dua after every prayer with their arms and hands parallel to the ground, this is not proven from the Prohpet (peace be upon him). The kufr quotes section of my website has actual quotes from members of this group from hyderabad, india.

[edit] Omair the mas'oodi exposes himself

It is human nature when you cannot defend your faith or answer a SINGLE of my questions above in the "Ha ha" passage, you delete it and ignore it. Why did you delete it my boy. Instead of answering my questions and refuting my stance, you get personal and start attacking me for a personal deed. It has nothing to do with Islam or the manhaj. I personally know members of jamaat ul muslimeen who smoke, who shave beards, etc. But that is no reason for saying that jamaat ul muslimeen is wrong. Remember, attacking someone for their personal amal is the work of cowards, who have no other means of disproving what I say. It is pretty clear now that you cannot even answer a single of my questions above. Instead you just delete the post (like you always do) and try to ignore my questions. Why this cowardice? Why this dajl? If you are on HAQ why don't you answer? You JUST CLAIM to follow quran and hadith. But you give you own opinions. Give me the daleel for Ummat muhammadiyyah and ummat al muslimeen. Come on. Don't innovate in Allah's deen. If you cannot provide the daleel for this, then you are no different for the "muqallids" you hate. You are even worse because you attribute a lie to the Nabi (peace be upon him) that he said "jamaat al muslimeen" is a name.

I ask you again, "Hatu burhanukum" - Give your daleel or proof for this statement. Where is it ever mentioned in the Quran and ahadith that the ummah will be into two parts?

1) ummat muhammadiyya 2) ummat al muslimeen

Do not delete this, if you believe you are on haq. And answer it!!!

If you say that islam is only for "love", then you are nothing but following the manhaj of the Sufis.

Tell me you love the hanafis, shafais, salafies. You only preach. But in your heart you truly hate them.

For me, love is only between Moimineen. And not ahlul bid'ah (eg: Masoodis). Surely the sahabah did not "love' the khawarij. What are you preaching man. Give me one daleel which says that you should love the people of bid'ah. Don't be afraid like every masoodi is. Be different, be bold, don't delete my posts. Read my questions. Answer them. Don't try to escape your inevitable defeat here, by saying this is my last reply. You have not replied anything at all from the beginning. Reply to my allegations in "Ha ha", "salafi muslim said - Jamaat ul muslimeen has been exposed yet again" and "final challenge". You are ignoring this on purpose.


[edit] Omair's Reply: Thank you, yet you have exposed here again

  • I never deleted it. I still say openly to the world. Masood ahamad was a jaahil e akbar.

if i say samething to Albani as you said it, then how do you feel it. but i can't say it. because im not broughtuup in the manner you had been brought-up. i respect everyone, even Shia Imams, Christian scholars, Jews, et cetra, on the other hand Brother you have no respect for anyone, i can imagine then how could do you treat your parents, when a person is such a harsh and crual in nature. Entire ahl-sunnah-wa-aljammaah declared Nasir albani as biggest innovator of modern day, but i do have respect for him, and even he's not alive. but i still do respect him. and even yet he give many fatwas agianst quran and haidith. but still i do have respect for him. Even Imam Masood Ahmad (rahmat Allah alaih) pointed out many error in albnai's works, but he or Jamaat al muslimeen never exposed them in public, because of respect for him - borther this is ture sign of muslims - if you do as quran and hadith says you will never be looser. but once you start goint against it (as you did) گمراہی مقدم ہے

- for the proof of Fatwa made by ahlsunnah waljamaah against albani can be seen hereClick here: Al-Albani Unveiled


1. i have seen all my post from the begining, and i see what you did

first you Didn't like calling myself as Muslim so you changed Muslim's Reply to Jamaat-ul-Muslimeen's Reply then for some resons you didn't like that either (may be because of gramatical mistake yani Muslim Group's Reply which make nonsense because here is only conversation by one-on-one basis, so then you changed it again to Muslim's Reply)

Now everyone can see who playing araound here Me or Mr. Younus (Salafi Boy).

2. you said: I was also a member of Jamaat ul muslimeen. A very staunch supporter of it.

brother i didn't know that how easly Salafi's lie . . . you said you have been in Muslim's Group (Jamaat ul Muslimeen), that is a BIG FAT LIE and nothing else. I know you never been in our jamaat. and we know who ever lef jamaat where they go. and secondly the things you mentioned . . . no one do that except your lier brain innovate as of your BIG innovation nameing yourself "Salafi" and accepting the man-made commentry (interpetationj of tabaieen wa taba tabaieen). but i cannot deny that some people who had been known from other denimanation (sunni, shia) and come and joined us.. could have been their habit to doing after every prayer because of long time in such groups (like Salafism). but it is not compulsry do to it after every Salah (prayer). in my understainding i didn't come accros any Hadith which said so, if it is there then we must do it. but i dont know any such hadith.

well thank you for exposing yourself agian. thank you very much. . . .

3. you said "For me, love is only between Moimineen. And not ahlul bid'ah (eg: Masoodis)."

Now here you make another prety clear point, Bro i thing or parhaps you dont know Prophet never hates anyone (even you know that lady who used to throw dirt on Him and all the Jamaat-ul-Kufaar how badly they treated Him but he never ever hates them)... so now you took religion of Islam in your hand make your own rules, well do it what ever you do it is not new for you guys.. it is long time comming, I will NEVER ever go against the Teachings of Prophet Muhammad, who never ever hates anyone, and this was exactly the attitude of all the Prophets (inc. Jesus, Moses, Abraham, peace be upon them all) that never hate anybody, because in one sense or the other they after all Brothers in Humanity, if not in Faith (Because we all are Children of Adam - peace be upon him)

Thank for you exposing yourself again. and finally everyone can see who is crual, and haterd person is here.


Brother make this think clear in mind word is "Dislike" not "Hate"

Thank you . . thank you so much for exposing yourelf and actions and your teachings (which says hate people).

whether i know you are ahl-bida (i.e. calling your self Salafi instead of calling "Muslim" and so many other things that have inovated) . . .but still I say . . . I love you for the sake of Allah

Peace

[edit] Younus said - you are welcome

 ;-)

[edit] Younus said - Give daleel not opinions

You have not given me a daleel that we are supposed to LOVE Ahl ul bid'ah. And you have again ignored my questions. Nice for you to ignore them again and again and again. The people are getting the right message.

I dont care who you love and dislike, give me daleel not your personal fatwa on love and its types...

I do not hate you personally, but I hate your beliefs.

[edit] Younus said - even Omair insulted me

this is what Omair said when I edited the article to a more nuetral one. "An a****le from Hydrabad, India keeps updating this page with his filthy opinions."

I won't use this to say that the Jamaat ul muslimeen are wrong. Sin does not make you wrong. All of the children of Adam sin. This is no daleel or proof of thier misguidance, since this is his personal Amal and not endorsed by Jamaat ul muslimeen.

[edit] The article

The article that you now post is very biased and is in favor of Jamaat ul muslimeen totally. We need both sides of the argument which I believe is being rightly put by me. My article expresses all the beliefs of Jamaat ul muslimeen, and also what we (the Salafis) believe about them. And the grammar and english is far superior also, which is secondary.

[edit] About love

“You (O Muhammad) will not find any people who believe in Allaah and the Last Day, making friendship with those who oppose Allaah and His Messenger (Muhammad), even though they were their fathers or their sons or their brothers or their kindred (people). For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with Rooh (proofs, light and true guidance) from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens (Paradise) under which rivers flow, to dwell therein (forever). Allaah is pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Hizbullah. Verily, it is the Hizbullah that will be the successful”

[al-Mujaadilah 58:22]

Sahih Al Bukhari, 216:"I have been ordered to fight against people until they testify that there is no God but Allah & that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah & until he performs the prayers & pays the Zakat."

If islam is only about LOVE, like the coward sufis and coward qadianis say, then the Prophet (peace be upon him) would not kill the kuffar at the numerous battles. Abu bakr would not kill the rejecters of Zakaat. Umar would not have conquored the kaafir lands, Ali would not have fought and killed the khawaarij who were misguided. They did not say that "we love you O khawarij, come and be our brother" instead they killed the khawaarij on the spot, the one who murdered Ali. And do you want to know how he was killed. The flesh from his face was ripped off with swords, his tongue cut off. Go and join the sufis if you endorse love so much!!!

[edit] member of JM does not know where Allah is - this old man was a part of them for 15 years

Looks like you need a lesson on "Al-wala wal bar'a". You probably don't even know what this is and might know of this for the first time. You are soooo obsessed with the word "Muslim", that you do not know any other aspect of the deen. Reminds me of one member of Jamaat ul muslimeen who was a part of this heretical group for 15 years. Yes 15 years is a long time. This guy did not know where Allah is. But, he knew all the ahadith on firqas. Is this what islam came for? Islam came to correct the aqaaid of the people, which is not at all the focus of your website aljamaat.org You guys have nothing useful on the website except slander against other muslim groups.

[edit] GIVE DALEEL

Admit it that you donot have daleel for "Ameer-e-jamaat-ul-muslimeen". This is what you use. While the sahabah used "Ameer ul Mu'mineen". I thought you followed the Sahabah? Maybe not! This alone is proof for me that you practive bid'ah and your own "masood ahmad made laws".

Admit this also that you donot have a daleel for "Ummat e muhammadiyya" and "ummat e muslimeen". Where did this come from? I thought you only folow Quran and hadith, and not your own "man made" desires? Where is the daleel for this?

If you cannot give daleel, then how different are you from those who follow their own desires?

Admit it that you don't have any daleel.

If in your next reply you do not give a daleel, then I believe the debate is over!

[edit] If in your next reply you do not give a daleel, then I believe the debate is over!

[edit] Game is Over - Thank you for exposing yourself - This is exactly that want hear from you

[edit] Salafis Hate Islam (Quran and Hadith)

My Br. Mr. Younus said: I do not hate you personally, but I hate your beliefs.

My beliefs are exactly NOT a jot, dot or Iota of differnce with Islam

Brother the things you had made about jamaat al muslimeen are manupulated and a GREAT LIE... which i had warned you long time ago. i.e. (Br. Fear Allah,)

I'm Muslim (a person who only practice Islam) and nothing else.

One Ilah (Supreme authority), one Religon (set out by Allah Islam), One Prophet (for examplfying our lifes according to His Sunnah) one Jammah (United body of Muslims, no tafuriqah alwasy united), One Imam (leader) no fatwa, qayas, ijtihad of any Muslim scholar is acceptable except Only prophet's view, interpetation (Tashreeh). in simple term it is enough and clear-cut messege for me.

if you need proof for the beliefs that i prsented above, i can provide all the details (with athentic qutations)

on the other hand Salafism - practices are quite similar to Islam (as like Bahaism, Sufism, and Shiaism have also same practices) but orginated many innovative beliefs (aqeedah) like islam should be understood according to the interpetation of Tabaieen and tabatabeen and by Present day scholars (Albani, Bin baz) and the Fatwa making-machine is always open for un-learned poeple (yani other than schoars) it is clear cut for me that you are believeing a man made religion - specially founded by Albani, Bin baz sort of poeple. who brainwashed all you adherent of Salafism. They made things Halal (i.e. calling yourself slafi) for you and other things haraam.

brother, as Brelwies (grave worshipers, sufi type aqeedah) are brainwashed you are also same as them. (no big differance) rather say all firqah (sects/cults) are brainwashed.

But remember that Muslims never ever be brainwashed, they always say Hatu Burhanakum or ask for daleel??

even i can give you one example, one time one muslim brother ask Imam Masood Ahmad (rahamt allah alaih) about video Camcorder (or recording for personal memories stuff) . .. listen what he said: he said if you think it is not picture then it is up to you what you do with that, i cannot qayas and give verdict on these things, so i stay away in this matter but remeber this hadith, then He mentioned Hadith from Sahaiheen that prophet said "there are two things one is clear and others are not clear and in between them are mashkoo (doubtful things), so if you have doubt then stay away in those things rather indulgeing in them" after that he said: and now matter in your hands and your judgement".

So see brother no persoanal opinion involved, no fatwa was given and how beutifully he solved the problem.

on the other hand your scholar without any hasitation (blow up as machine gun) brusted out all they give fatwas withou having fear fo Allah. i know personally one time a slafi guy has a long beard and he had transfer his job some where else, when he come back after many months, only i see his shaved face no beard at all, i ask him what happen bro, brother it is haram to cut shave off, he replied me saying "Sheikh said it is ok you can do that", i said what tha hell, from then now i left salafism entirly. [bro this is one incident, there have been several things that can proof you guys are not on right track] everything is in Scholars hand they can make things halaal and haraam for you. (Subhan Allah).

Thank you for your all your efforts that have been put to expose Salafism.

If in your next reply you do not give a daleel, then I believe the debate is over! Bro. debate has alredy been over decades ago. but you just keep pushing, insisting... that's all

Peace

[edit] Still no daleel from Omair

Folks the debate is over. Mr Omair has failed to give a daleel for his own "self made" fatwas. He said "ameer-e-jamaat-ul-muslimeen" is not bid'ah, and he has not given me a daleel for that.

He said the ummah is divided into two parts - Ummat e muhmmadiyyah and ummat e muslimeen. He has no evidence for this statement. Instead he is talking about some salafi, in some corner of the world who shaved his beard.

Bro, this is no daleeel. Remember, someones personal amal is not daleel for an entire group to be declared as mis-guided. There are black sheep in every community. Just giving one example of masood ahmads fatwa does not defend him.

He said, "Jamaat ul muslimeen is a name" for which he did not present a daleel. He has no proof for this. This is a "masood ahamd" made law. Why don't you disprove this kid, instead of changing the topinc and personally attacking some salafis. Even I can come up with many incidents of jamaat ul muslimeen members doin sin, but that is no daleel.

You have no daleel that is why you ignore my requests for a daleel.

[edit] Omair will never reply

He has all the time in the world to write stories about salafis who do sin, but he does not have the time to defend his faith. He cannot refute any of my questions above. If you can't do it, then get the hell out of here.

Instead he just praises himself and says, "My beliefs are exactly NOT a jot, dot or Iota of differnce with Islam", I'm Muslim (a person who only practice Islam) and nothing else.

If they are not different from Islam, then where is your Daleel?

Stop praising yourself. Nobody wants to hear that. I just want a daleel.

[edit] Final message from younus to those who read this

This is how Omair answered my question on how a person becomes a muslim:

"Don't you know: OK I'l mentioned it again...just a reminder for you By giving up and submtting to the will of Allah, with its fullness......then say Shahdah (testemony of Faith) with Bayah to Ameer of the Muslim (meaning Jamaat ul Muslimeen)...because there is no way in Islam to live a individual life....Islam teaches unity (Jamaah)..and that only be happen if we live as jammah and appoint an Ameer over us. that is why Prophet said: If a person leaves Jamaat....even the size of palm....it means throughing out Al-Islam from his neck (Mustadrak al-Hakim)"

It is clear that according to him, the condition to become a Muslim is to join Jamaat ul Muslimeen. There is no other way a person can become a muslim. If you notice, in the discussion above, I have asked Mr afzal several times to just say that "the hanafis, shafais, hambalis, salafis are muslims" And not in a single instance did he ever say that. Instead he just brags and says that he alone is the true islam and according to him he is a pure follower of the Quran and hadith. No humilty here. It is pretty clear what their aqaid are.

Omair's aqeedah - To be a Muslim, you must be a part of jamaat ul muslimeen, otherwise you are not a Muslim

He will never deny and refute this, since he truly believes in this. This aqeedah of his alone is enough for us all to reject this khaariji ideology. This is not what Islam is.

[edit] Muslim's Reply - Final Warning

DO NOT PLAY AROUND WITH MY WORDINGS.

everyone can see that what you are doing here, you twist my messege according to your own desires, and then declare them as my Beliefs, i mentioned my Aqaid (beliefs) above.

Brother what cause you to do things like this??, I know why, because it crushed down your entire beliefs, that's why

Islam vs. Salafism

Muslim vs. Salafi

Jamaat al Muslimeen (Muslim Group) Vs. Jamaat us-Salafiyah (Salafi group)

No Fatwa Vs Fatwa (Compulsry, cant's live without of it)

Truth distinct itself from Batil - i don't need to do any struggle. Truth is right there Bro. and everyone can see them.

annother one of Salafi's Fatwa "khaariji ideology" haahhah i can't help but laugh.

Sslafi's Belief #1: They say if you are not Salafi, then you are Kharjite or bedati (innovators) - it is pretty clear that every single person of Salafism are fatwa maker. they can't live without of it. heheheh.

Thank you once again exposing yourself.

[edit] No refutation and no daleel

Omair has failed to refute his belief: To be a Muslim, you must be a part of jamaat ul muslimeen, otherwise you are not a Muslim

He has also failed to provide the daleel for his beliefs about the ummat e mulimeen and ummat e muhammadiyyah.

Remeber folks, believing someone to be an innovator still implies that he is a muslim. Calling someone a "muslim innovator" is nothing compared to calling others as "kaafirs" or "non-muslims" or "not muslims" which is what our dear masoodi Omair firmly believes in. If you notice, he did not refute his aqeedah that every one else besides them are not muslims. To be muslim, you have to be a part of jamaat ul muslimeen and there is no other way. I gave his quotation. there was no editing. It cannot mean anything else.

Folks, beware of this takfeeri jamaat, they think and believe you are kaafir.


[edit] Muslim's Reply - Salafi's Another Fatwa

Mr. Younus Said: Remeber folks, believing someone to be an innovator still implies that he is a muslim

I ask you hatu burhanakum??, Where is a Daleel for Such Fatwa (verdict)?? my dear Fatwa-maker??

What does this hadith say: "کل بدعة ضلالة و ضلالة فی النار" meaning: "Every innovation is Dhalalah (misguidance) and every misguidance is in hellfire", now where is a daleel of your illogical fatwa, my dear fatwa maker?? and remember we Muslim's aware of this hadith and that's is why we never innovate anything in Islam (we accept what is been said in quran and what has been said in Hadith), but you guys (slafiees) just quote this hadith for others, but not apply to yourself, Islam is for everyone, you can't just impose hadith on others, it also includes "everyone"

brother, and you said "Islam should be understood accroding to the understaning or interpetation of tabaieen and taba-tabieen" - where is a daleel?? who give you this athority?? whereas porphet said: "stick to Quran and my sunnah, then you will be successfull" then why is there a third-party who would teaches islam to Us, Islam is come from Allah and only should be understood by prophet's interpetaion, no man (incl. Masood Ahamad, or albnai) has right to give his opinion (fatwa or made qayas) on Quran and Hadith" - and this is the major reason we muslim's excommuncate with all cults and sects where is this things happenin openly - here i mean the people who are near to Islam, the five cults of Ahl-sunnah-wa-aljamaah yani (lip-servicing muslims):

Hanfiess - stick to the understanding of Imam Abu-Hanifah (Rehmat allah alaih)

Shafiees - stick to the understanding of Imam Shafi (Rehmat allah alaih)

Malkiess - stick to the understanding of Imam Malik ibn Anas (Rehmat allah alaih)

Hanblies - stick to the understanding of Imam Ahamad ibn Hanbal (Rehmat allah alaih)

Salfiees - stick to the understanding of Salaf-us-Salaheen (Tabaieen and Tabatabeen)

on the other Hand:

Muslims - stick to the understanding of Prophet Muhammad (sala Allah alaih wa Salam)

[edit] =Ummat al-Muhammdiyah Vs. Umaat al-Muslimeen (Jamaat al Muslimeen)

Prophet Said: (Mafhoom-al-Hadith) My Ummah will be divided into 73 sects ... all of them in hell-fire, except ONE - that wil be al-jammah (who will be on my minhaj yani, the way of me and my companions are on today)

al-jamaah, means: one united body, the (only) group, uniterianism, no sectarianism, this hadith is supported by the Hadith of Hudafah - (radhi allah anha) which says: Stick to united body of Muslims (Jamaat al Muslimeen) and their leader (Imam).... and stay away from all sects (72 fractions) so my question is where is such jamaah in this trial period of ours, if it is not Jamaat al Muslimeen, whereas, if suppose you consdier ahl-sunnah wa-aljammah as al-Jamaah, then why they have five sects, from which orginated many sub-sects:

Hanfi to deobandi, brelvi, jamaat-e-islami etc.

shafai to ahl hadith (another form of Salafism) and they have 17 more sub sects, who are different in every matther of aqaid, which ahl-hadith was formed

and Hanbli to salafi further fomed ito ansar-sunnah, Tawheedi, etc.

list will goes on and on....

and the major factor is that al-jamaat, the word itself means united under one authority (amr minkum) yani Imam (ameer). so my question is where is the imam of ahl-sunnah-wa-aljamaah if it is aljamaah??

Brother things are clear cut to me, in this period of ours the true jamaah is only Jamaat al-Muslimeen and others did gone into wrong track...

Brother Jamaat al-Muslimeen wall is so strong that ... whether how many bombs you blast it will never be crushed down, because all of your alegations are illogical. and i did say that "we do not take things blindly" if something doesnot supported by Islam, we are the first one who rejected out right those belief, and ther have been such cases.

one more thing, for We muslims DOESNOT take things blindly (doing taqleed), we donot have any fatwa books of scholars. as you salafies has (Fatwa e albani, fatwa ibn alqyam etc)

and it is wrong that you said that Jamaat al-Muslimeen was founded by Imam masood Ahmad, it was revived by muslims and appoint Masood Ahamad as an our first ameer. and secondly, you also have to realize that, the other jamaats, like in sri lanka, bangladesh, libya, etc. how they orginated they are not orginated by Imam Masood Ahamd (if they were it will then rightly called founded by Imam Masood Ahamad, brother they had their own scholars, when they also realize as Pakistani scholars realise the innovation of being in firqahs (sects) then they also united under their own Imams, but when they find out that in pakistan they are muslims who are also under one Imam, then they all emerged with one Leader (brother it is clear cut miracle to me) and it is quite fare to anylize the trueness of a jmaat that they must unite in aqaid, in leadership, otherwise they all could have been a individual jamaats and many beliefs.

please consider this in mind, then you are free to ask any question. i've been patience from the beginning, it is a high time that you also take this into consideration. thank you in advance.

and I'm sorry if i had been crual to you at any point. I ask Allah to forgive, if i had made mistakes.

Peace

[edit] Still no daleel

I'm waiting...

And yes i want proof from Quran and hadith. dont hurt yourself and try to give lemgthy explanations. I dont need a fatwa from you. lol

And you are quoting me that i said, "Islam should be understood accroding to the understaning or interpetation of tabaieen and taba-tabieen"

You are a big fat LIAR. I never said that... it is no where to be found...

Do us all a favor and give us your daleel for ummat e muhmmadiyyah and ummat e muslimeen. I dont need your explanation to ahadith. Give me solid proof. Like you always "claim" to have.

And it looks like the one who does bid'ah according to you is not a muslim.. Give me your daleel for this.

So please prove from Quran and hadith and not adding your own words to it that:

1) ummat will be into two part -ummat e muhm=ammadi, and ummat e muslimeen

2) those who do bid'ah are not muslims. in other words, they are kaafir.

Come on phoopsey!

[edit] Muslim Said: Salafies are dieing down, IT IS FACT THAT Batil are always blind, CANNOT SEE ANYTHING

thank you for exposing yourself again one more time.

this guy only knows how to insult others and nothing else, like he said "Come on phoopsey" why should i talk to a person who cannot see anything "ان کی انکھوں پہ پردھے پڑ چکھے ہیں۔"

Mr. Younus Said: And you are quoting me that i said, "Islam should be understood accroding to the understaning or interpetation of tabaieen and taba-tabieen .....You are a big fat LIAR. I never said that... it is no where to be found...

here you go my Salafi denier ... you said that clearly it is fact about SALAFISM....if you rejected this belief then you getting closer to Islam . . . but still long way to go.

Younus = a muslim who endorses the view that islam should be understood according to the understanding of the salaf (The sahabah, taba'een and tabe taba'een). And not according to other peoples' desires, especially masood ahmad

Mr. Younus, i did provided you my answer, but it is clear that you are so blind that you cannot see anything, read my post again, and see them to yourself i did answered your questions.

Salafies and brelvies are same in this context, whenever you proof to brelviees that Prophet Muhammad is not Hazir-o-Nazir OR Shahid wa al-Mashood (Omnipresent) they also asked the same thing as Salfies, where is daleel??, even after mentioneing several quranic or authentic Hadith explaination, they just blindly ask again and again "where is a daleel" - i can't help but laaugh - this is exactly and always be the attitude of Batil people.

brother only jahil (ignorant) people ask one question again and agian

thank you for exposing yourself...you are nothing but fool

I know even, whether i quote u one hadith or several hadiths, it doesnot makes you any difference, you gonna foolishly ask me same question again and again "where is daleel" - heheheh

thank you for exposing yourself.

END OF DEBATE - no time for a BIG TIME loosers (salafi boy)

[edit] still no daleel

sheesh!

[edit] Muslim's Reply - I know you gonna say this - that is why I say: لکم دینکم ولیدین

Now I left the article as you wanted to put,

One is my sided view and others is yours.

and you have know right to use the word "mainstreem", since this article should be NPOV, and Readers don't knows who is maintream who is not, because everyone claims to be mainstream (seved sect): e.g.

brelvies, shia, qadyani, ismaili, hanbli, shafai, hanfi, and you (Salafi), ahl-hadith (salafi), Nation of Islam, et cetra, so in this regard, we have to be neutral in this matter. so leave these points as it is on.

Thank you in advance to take this into consideration.

Finally, Allah Guides whome He wills.

Wa Allah bi al-Taufiq,

Peace

[edit] Still no daleel

Where is your daleel poochy?

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