Talk:Jallianwala Bagh Massacre

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was

[edit] Requested move

Jallianwala Bagh Massacre → Amritsar Massacre – Article was located at Amritsar Massacre from 2003 until a new user moved it with an awful cut-and-paste job in April 2006. Almost every page that links to Jallianwala Bagh Massacre does so through the redirect at Amritsar Massacre. Google shows 17,000+ hits for "Jallianwala Bagh Massacre" but 44,000+ hits for "Amritsar Massacre", including Encyclopædia Britannica. Clearly this is the most common English usage. Kafziel 16:20, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support as nominator. Kafziel 16:20, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support as nominated. Mangoe 13:00, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support I ahve always known it as the Amritsar Massacre. Dabbler 13:56, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support Same here. Septentrionalis 03:18, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
• SupportDitto.--Stonemad GB 22:11, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose Not going by the google hits, I think it is widely known in India as Jallianwala Bagh Massacre. - Ganeshk (talk) 05:55, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose Per Ganeshk. I have always read about this as the "Jalliwanwala Bagh Massacre" in history books from all over South Asia. --Ragib 05:53, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose I've always known it as the Jallianwala Bagh Massacre, everywhere in which I have mentioned it on Wikipedia, I have mentioned it as the Jallianwala Bagh Massacre. Nobleeagle ^[TALK] [C] 05:57, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support Never heard of it referred to as anything but Amritsar Massacre. Notwithstanding Google hits and whatnot, that is the name used in every book I've ever read. Herostratus 18:48, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

  Make that every western book' you've read? ;) -- Anon 00:38, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose --
  • Jallianwalla Bagh massacre is what it is know in and taught in India. Just because western references generalize it to the Amritsar massacre does not mean that it is common usage. You're defining common usage to be what is taught in N American and European schools, not what is taught in vernacular schools and English schools in the subcontinent. Wikipedia has an undocumented policy of staying with local preferences, wherein local references are preferred to western documentation (WP:CSB, Wikipedia:Manual of Style (spelling)), so in all logic it should be the JWBM. You'd find more references to Calcutta than Kolkata, but that does not mean that just because Calcutta is common usage, it should be preferred to the current official name.
  • The google search results are not the most definitive conclusion since the data present is heavily skewed in favour of publications based in western nations.
  • The cut and paste job was bad, but any admin can merge the page histories. If needed to be I can log in and do it.

Please don't discredit me because I am editing as an anon, I do have a login, but I would be prefer to remain offline. --Anon 12.180.4.162 00:38, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose --

Maybe, I'm tuning into this debate a bit late - but I oppose it too. Amritsar massacre is not the most commonly used name. Already, on the First Indian War of Independence page, the biased "Rebellion of 1857" is used. Is Wikipedia a mouthpiece for the British POV? Jvalant 06:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

• Why don't just revert? --Will74205 06:18, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Establishing a firm consensus for the move rather than acting unilaterally will help prevent others from being successful if they want to move it back. Admins like to see evidence that it was an agreed change. On the other hand its been a week or so now. Dabbler 17:07, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, it's good that you didn't "just revert". Nobleeagle ^[TALK] [C] 05:58, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I find this one very tricky. Unlike others where there is just a difference between the way it is written in English (like "Wien" vs "Vienna"), here there is additional issue that people from India haven't heard "Amritsar Massacre" before, while people from west haven't heard of "Jallianwala Bagh Massacre" before. I guess this started as the British found it difficult to pronounce as "Jallianwala Bagh Massacre", so historically they named it "Amritsar Massacre" (after the town in which the massacre took place). In case of India, there was no need to look for alternatives, so everywhere it was mentioned by its original name, without any reference to the western way of referring. The west, at the same time, paid no attention to the Indian way. The internet, historically dominated by the west, shows bias towards the west. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 07:26, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

This has been known throughout most of the Western world as the Amritsar Massacre for a lot longer than Google has been around. Sure, Google results can be manipulated by marketing plans and linkspam, but I don't think too many people have a financial interest in using Amritsar instead of Jallianwala Bagh. In this case, it's simply an example of common usage. "Google books" and "Google scholar" support those results. I'm not suggesting changing the name on the Kannada Wikipedia, just the English one. You have to consider the audience. Kafziel ^Talk 19:30, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I have read it in "English language" history books and documents published from India and Bangladesh. If you take a count, India has more English language speakers (may not be native, but still people who use English in everyday usage) than, say, Britain or Canada, or USA. I am not saying that "Amritsar Massacre" is a marketing ploy to stuff google rankings, but google doesn't cover all of the web. Even if we do a google search, "Amritsar Massacre" yields 36.2 thousand results. "Jallianwala bagh Massacre" gets 18.5 thousand, but if you consider the spelling variants, the total number goes up to 25 thousand or so. Therefore, it is not a definite tilt towards "Amritsar Massacre". Now, considering the audience, we definitely should go for "Jallianwala Bagh Massacre" (more English speakers in India than UK+Canada combined), and I doubt the US readers care about either name anyway. Thanks. --Ragib 20:02, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm from the US, and I care. So I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean. And this isn't just English we're talking about, anyway. The French, Italian, and German Wikipedias all use Amritsar. I've been involved with other South Asian-related articles in the past, and I always have to chant to myself "there is no cabal, there is no cabal" despite the vote stacking and sock puppetry that tends to run rampant with these things, so believe me when I say I was very hesitant to suggest this move. But Amritsar is the right name, and it's important, and it was improperly moved here without discussion, and clearly I'm not alone in thinking so because the only "oppose" votes came from here. Kafziel ^Talk 20:19, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

because the only "oppose" votes came from here

And what precisely is wrong with that? If you read what's written here, that was a very straight note on that this move was suggested, without any comment on how people should vote. If you are accusing me or anyone of votestacking or being part of the Cabal, please say it directly rather than making indirect comments. And stick to the subject rather than commenting on imaginary Cabals. Thank you. --Ragib 20:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I said vote stacking is what usually happens in South Asia-related articles, so I was reluctant to open this discussion. But if you're saying that post is vote stacking, I won't argue with you. I think it would be considered vote stacking if I posted a link to this on British military history project or something, because the resulting votes would obviously not be unbiased representatives of the general community. Kafziel ^Talk 21:38, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I said vote stacking is what usually happens in South Asia-related articles,

I find this comment quite objectionable. If you have specific comments on specific articles, please comment on those, but generalizing a whole region (or articles related to the region) as examples of "vote stacking" is a quite biased attitude. I guess under the same argument, the whole Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting page would be a tool for vote stacking!! --Ragib 21:48, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I would agree with that. It serves to stack votes without the annoying user talk page spam. I don't see any other use for sorting deletion votes by category except to encourage arguments and one-sided discussions. Most editors on AfD participate in a wide variety of discussions. They're neutral, and take each case as it comes and judge it on its own merits. On the other hand, presenting an issue to a Wikiproject almost always precipitates a rush of foot-stomping, defensive voters who are all fired up to defend value X against infidel Y. I'm not saying it only happens with South Asia articles, but it does happen and this is a case in point. I mean, am I wrong? Did you not all vote within minutes of the posting at the project, and within minutes of each other? Did you not all vote exactly the same way? Did any support come from the India project? Not that I see. If I'm wrong, if there's a vote I missed, let me know. It's nothing personal; I've also seen it happen on World of Warcraft articles, U.S. Marine Corps articles, fmr. Yugoslavia articles, Native American articles, and Pokemon articles. I see it more often on Asian articles because I work on more of them, and because I run across more of them on AfD. Kafziel ^Talk 22:18, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Had I NOT edited this talk page several days ago, before I voted? Do I not have the talk page on my watchlist? Do I control how and when other people votes and how they vote? Nope. FYI, I'm not an Indian, and not part of WikiProject India. I do have the India-related notice board in my watchlist because of a comment posted there to which I was referred to, and replied. But in any case, I have had this talk page in my watchlist since Sep 23. So, I hope you'd stop accusing others of vote stacking etc. You should stick to the arguments on the issue, (which you were doing just fine, before you started seeing "Cabals"). Thank you. --Ragib 22:33, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I was one who posted it. I found this when I was checking any moves on WP:RM that I can help with. My intention was not to vote-stack or gather cabal. What I did was already in practice. Deletion discussions are regularly posted on sub-page for editors with Indian interest. We do not have a similar mechanism for Moves yet. So had to do that. Please do not resort to accussing others when the discussion is not going your way. - Ganeshk (talk) 20:35, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

See my reply above. And this wasn't an accusation; it was an observation. You wouldn't be offended if you didn't think there was anything shady about it. Lately people have taken to posting AfDs, move requests, etc on project pages. The results are easy to see, whether it's the India page or the World of Warcraft page. People are members of a given project because they all have similar feelings about the direction those articles should take, so it's no surprise when they all show up en masse and vote the same way. And I wouldn't say the discussion isn't going my way. I made my points before I ever mentioned the "cabal"; the fact that both of you chose to ignore them (because the discussion isn't going your way?) and take what I said out of context doesn't mean I'm accusing anyone of anything. Kafziel ^Talk 21:38, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I supported the move because that is what I have always heard it called as a native English speaker with some interest in India and its history, though I was aware that the actual site within Amritsar was called something like Jallianwala Bagh, I doubt if I could have spelled it properly. Basically though, redirects are cheap, so people typing in Amritsar Massacre, Amritsar massacre etc. will end up in the right place. However, the person that did the first move did it poorly and left many links to Amritsar Massacre. So why not go in and clean up all the old links and make sure that all possible variants point to the one page. Dabbler 20:25, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Dabbler, WP:CUTPASTE move can be easily fixed and redirected to the correct article. The discussion is about what the article title should be. - Ganeshk (talk) 20:44, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

(reply to Dabbler)The point isn't really that it was a cut-and-paste move anyway; the article was moved without consensus in the first place. It should have been moved back to its original location (Amritsar Massacre) without debate and then consensus should try to be reached on moving it here. Kafziel ^Talk 21:38, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Dabbler said I was aware that the actual site within Amritsar was called something like Jallianwala Bagh, I doubt if I could have spelled it properly, that's exactly why it's not known as the Jallianwala Bagh Massacre in some Western nations. They preferred the simpler term: Amritsar Massacre. But the fact remains that it was originally called the Jallianwala Bagh massacre and in South Asia and to South Asians, is still called the Jallianwala Bagh massacre. Another positive of keeping it here is that more people will come to know the proper term. If they type in Amritsar massacre, it'll redirect to here and then they (regardless of region) will come to know both the Western term and the Indian term. However, perhaps the reason why you think there is a cabal is because if an Indian person would type in Jallianwala Bagh Massacre and see it redirects to Amritsar Massacre, they may just think to themselves "That's not what I've been told the name was", and you may get someone else randomly doing a cut-and-paste move to this page. Thus I oppose to proposed move. The Cabal accusations/observations are baseless, the noticeboard didn't tell us how to vote, it told us to take a look as it relates to the subcontinent. The reason why South Asians here are voting oppose is because that's what we've been told the name was throughout our lives. Nobleeagle ^[TALK] [C] 23:33, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, without discussing any cabals or vote stacking, the fact remains that there are a number of administrators here who know that the right thing to do when a unilateral move is contentious is to put it back where it started and then seek consensus. This discussion shouldn't even need to take place. If I renamed this article "Jallianwala Bagh fusillade" we wouldn't need to wait for a vote to move it back to its proper location. It would simply be put back and I'd be told to seek consensus. That's what should have been done here, and now that there are a number of admins in this discussion, the page should already be back at Amritsar massacre and we should be discussing whether or not to move it to Jallianwala Bagh. Why hasn't that happened? Kafziel ^Talk 00:50, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Please don't patronise me, Ganeshk, by assuming I don't know what the discussion is about. I know what we were discussing and I was pointing out that it is a fairly pointless discussion, as redirects exist and are cheap. If you cannot understand that, then I suggest you re-read what I wrote as it was quite clear English which is the language used on this Wikipedia version. I would prefer Amritsar Massacre as that is what I have always known it as. However, if both names are in the first sentence and the redirects are in place the actual title name should not be a serious impediment to anyone locating it. The time spent arguing here would be better used in tidying up all the double redirect links that can be found in the "What links here" section. Dabbler 02:18, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I was not trying to patronise or insult you. I am sorry if you felt so. I voted my preference. Like the Anon says, local preferences are given a priority when naming articles. Chennai and Kolkata instead of Madras and Calcutta as they are known in the West. Anyway, either way is fine with me. - Ganeshk (talk) 03:52, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's a very condescending tone to use Dabbler: I wrote as it was quite clear English which is the lnguage used on this Wikipedia version --Anon 02:41, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

And it was in response to a remarkably patronising comment about me. I consider that I was quite restrained, especially when I was trying to be conciliatory and not gratuitously insulting as Ganeshk seemed and Anon definitely is. Dabbler 02:46, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you felt this way but Ganesh had no intentional motives of being patronizing. And now you accuse me of being overtly patronizing, after simply pointing out that your statement was more condescending that what Ganesh had to say? I suggest you please do Assume good faith and stop accusing editors of being patronizing. I'm also curious as to what u meant by 'restrained'? --Anon 04:54, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Well we are discussing the title here, and the point to moot is if the local naming of the event takes preference or the one prevalent in western literature. Mind you, both are in English so the München/Munich case does not really apply here. According to wikipedia standards for articles, spelling and syntax used in the local flavour of English take precendence here. Secondly, I dont see a cabal here. Most of those who are opposing here either are admins, or have at least a featured article to their name... in other words they are experienced wikipedians. I don't think they would stoop to the level of forming a cabal for no rhyme or reason and to protect some narrow interests. The Indian wikipedians have earned plaudits from many in wikipedia for the team work and the number of featured articles, right from the featured article director himself. There have also been disagreements, and have been sorted out in an amicable way. In other words people here do not follow a herd mentality. They do think! --Anon 02:41, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

There is a category entitled Amritsar_massacre which, I believe, serves little to no purpose. Just to let you know that the category should be renamed based on the results of this debate as well. Nobleeagle ^[TALK] [C] 02:54, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

• There is certainly no consensus at the moment for the move, as voiced in the survey and the discussion; by default the article will be kept where it is. I encourage all of you to cool down and realize that we're discussing what to name an article, and that 99% of everything done here can be reversed. Teke^(talk) 05:28, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.