Talk:Jack Schaap

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Contents 1 Doctorate 2 Picture?? 3 Schaap made the news?? 4 User violating policies and guidelines again 5 In Jack Schaap's book on Marriage, titled Divine Intimacy 6 DON"T DELETE THINGS WITHOUT LEAVING EXPLANATON

[edit] Doctorate

Schaap's offical biography does not list a doctorate.[1] While the biography refers to him as a "Dr." with his BA and MA coming from the unaccredited school he is the head of, it fails to mention any doctoral information. Moreover, even if he received his doctorate from Hyles-Anderson, he cannot use the Dr. title on wikipedia because it comes from an academically unaccredited/unlicensed/unrecognized school. (See Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)) Arbusto 03:17, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Arbusto, you are an idiot! I apoligize for my outburst.(sincere apology) Try looking more into to things! The news doesn't usually tell the whole story you have to look into things yourself. Most of what I have read tonight of the controversies about Dr. Jack Hyles and Dr. Jack Schaap (Both have Doctrate of Divinitiy degrees) have been twisted and manipulated to make them sound like they are controlling people, and making the people in their congregations into rapists and thieves. Why don't you realize the Devil is using situations to destroy First Baptist Church's ministries. The Lord has greatly used Dr. Jack Schaap, Dr. Jack Hyles, and the members of First Baptist Church to reach others for Him. It is strikingly obvious that sinners are all around us who do horible things. People in the ministry are still just people; on earth we can only judge them as the Bible says we ought to but in Heaven they will be dealt with by the Great Almight God. Dr. Hyles and Dr. Schaap did not commit these crimes nor did they in any way indorse or encourage any crime that was committed. I'm sure you will find some way to critisize me and the things I have posted today; just remember that you will never reach your full potential untill you have shut off your computer and started doing something for God rather than critisizing poeple who are doing just that. I really do feel sorry for you and hope that one day you will realize what God has planned for your life and do it. You will have such a happy life full of real joy! anonymous comment left by 24.127.38.79 (talk • contribs)

I think a better citation needs to be sought. What year was the doctorate? Does Hyles-Anderson give Doctorates in Divinity? I mean it has Hyles-Anderson offers Bachelor of Science degrees in the following major concentrations: Pastoral Theology, Pastoral Assistant, Missions, Elementary Education, Secondary Education, General Studies, Music Director, and Music Education, but correct me if I am wrong I don't see any DD offered. Does he have a DD for "Marriage and Motherhood"?

Also it isn't proper to award yourself a doctorate, and go around using the Dr title. And yes, it appears that even if he did have a doctorate from Harvard it is aginast wikipedia policy to use the title according to MOS:BIO. C56C 21:03, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Just to let you know C56C, Jack Schaap did not award himself a Doctorate of Divinity. He was not in charge of the college at the time that he was given the doctorate. Bro Hyles was still alive then and Bro Hyles is the one who gave it to him.

Also I do find it strange tha months back no doctorate appeared on his biography [2], but with the whitewashing and attacks on these related articles it now appears. C56C 21:09, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

The link Vivaldi supplied does say Hyles Anderson D.D. giving the impression he was awarded a Doctorate of Divinity from Hyles-Anderson. But it needs to be qualified that there is no record of anyone having a DD from Hyles Anderson other than an honorary award. They have no divinity program, no doctorate programs, and strangely a few months back the page Vividli sourced did not mention the doctorate even though it referred to his as "Dr." C56C 22:34, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

You cannot be trained by an organization to have divinity. It is not something that you can learn in a class room. They can teach you how to get it but that goes along with the other courses of Pastoral Theology and others. You cannot be taught divinity. You must learn it by experience. Divinity is your prayer life, your walk with God, your perserverance through the hard times of life; therefore, it is not a course you can take in a college classroom. Hyles-Anderson gives it out as an HONORARY DIGREE!!!! They give it to people they think deserve to be honored.

I am sorry, but a DD has historically been an EARNED degree. Although it has now been given honorary status. Check out Doctor of Divinity, and read about the degree before you run your mouth off. The point is that this is an UNRECOGNIZED degreee, i.e.: from an unacreddited institution. I could give Doctorate of Divinity degrees from my garage, and it would be just as valid.NovumTestamentum 00:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The school has called him "Dr. Schaap" on its web pages for over 2 years at least. Here is one copy from the Wayback Machine from late 2004, but previous versions also had pictures with titles called "dr_schaap" too. And the point is that the college currently says he has a D.D. Perhaps he did absolutely nothing to get it, perhaps he was given an honorary D.D., perhaps he gave the title to himself. If there is are any verifiable sources that talk about his D.D., then it would be appropriate to include that information in the article and CITE YOUR SOURCES. Vivaldi (talk) 02:43, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

child, that does not prove your case. no one denies this nut has been caling himself a doctor. the addition of the DD to his Hyles degrees was not on the page you sourced months ago. you claim Schaap has a doctorate from the school he controls CITE YOUR SOURCES! the same hyles server you sourced does not note any DD program has existed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.188.116.65 (talk • contribs).

It does so prove my case. The claim is that Jack Schaap's college says he has a doctorate degree. That is a verifiable claim that the college has made for at least 2 years. Obviously the school is unaccredited and the man is the director of the school, so the degree probably isn't worth much. But in any case, I'm not claiming that the degree was properly granted, or that it is a meaningful degree. I'm only claiming that the college says he has a doctorate. That much is verifiable. If you have information that says otherwise from sources that are verifiable, then feel free to add that information to the article. Vivaldi (talk) 04:22, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's just leave it with a statement saying that he received his DD from Hyles-Anderson. I think it is a waste of time and energy to argue about whether the 'Dr.' should appear before his name each time it is mentioned. There are other things that could be added to this article. It needs much improvement. Also, does anyone here have any access to a pre-2001 HAC yearbook? That might give some info. The value of a DD is in the eyes of individuals who see it. Pastor, reverand, clergy can also be claimed by anyone, but the title is more respected depending on the way it was obtained. A DD from HAC will be seen as more valuable to those churches and colleges who are similar to HAC and FBC Hammond. It won't mean anything to some. --Kalmia 07:02, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, he has had the title of "Dr." since before 2004. If that is true, DR. Jack Schaap obviously didn't give himself the title then. If you know anything about the history (or read the news papers) and you are older than 5 years old, you should remember a front page article saying that Dr. Jack Hyles died in 2001. Dr. Hyles was in charge of the college as well as the First Baptist Church of Hammond untill 2001 when Dr. Schaap took it over after the church voted him in as pastor and chanseller of the college. Before this, he was already known as Dr. Jack Schaap. How do I know this? I was one of the ones that voted him in as the pastor. When they announce that the deacon board had voted on a man to recomend to the church to becamoe our next pastor, they said that his name was DR. Jack Schaap. Yes, before then he was the Vice Principal of the college, but only the pastor of the Frist Baptist Church in Hammond can award that digree.

[edit] Picture??

Why no picture? Did no one have a fair use image? --Kalmia 18:06, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Schaap made the news??

"Schaap made the news after two former Hyles-Anderson students were charged in March 2004 for two counts each of burglary and theft. The director of security of Hyles-Anderson revealed to police that a confession was made during a meeting with Schaap and the former students. [3]" - from the article

How is this Schaap making the news? It's a bit of a stretch to put it on the Hyles-Anderson article but how is this really relevant to this article?

The current mayor of Hammond (a Catholic) was employed by FBC Hammond as the church's lawyer prior to becoming mayor. Is this somehow relevant? The current Democrat and Republican candidates for the Indiana House of Representatives 1st district (where the church is) are current or former (I am not sure of their status) members of FBC. Is this relevant? (I don't know much about the Libertarian candidate other than hearing and reading his name.) And there is a lot more. --Kalmia 20:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe that the comment about "Schaap made the news" is relevant to this article. It certainly isn't a very notable event. It was a passing reference in an newspaper article that did not talk at all about Schaap's actions. I think it would be appropriate to remove this information. Vivaldi (talk) 04:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, so this portion should not be in here. I think that you all are stupid to sit around trying to fight with people over the matter of whether it should be on here or not. It is on this sight. Deal with it. There isn't really anything that you can do about it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.38.198.99 (talk) 23:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] User violating policies and guidelines again

Again Arbustoo (talk • contribs) is, yet again, adding negative unsourced information to an article about a Fundamentalist against the advice of WP:BLP. After making literally hundreds of such edits and being warned about it, he still engages in adding negative information to articles about living people, particular Fundamentalists. This latest round has him inserting the unsourced claim about that "no such program exists", referring to the D.D. program at HAC. Now the HAC website shows that they gave Schaap the degree and that they gave a number of other professors this degree -- so if the program doesn't exist Arbustoo needs to cite a source that says it doesn't exist. Vivaldi (talk) 03:34, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

There is no documention of the "school" having the program, but there is documentation of what they do have. You are demanding proof of something not existing. Do you understand that is illogical? I can't provide a source that they don't offer a PhD in Biochemistry either. I can tell you what they have, and Biochem isn't one of the degrees.

What year did Schaap graduate? What's his dissertation on? As you agreed to on your RfC please come to a consensus on this talk before you make anymore reverts. Arbusto 07:07, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The school says that Schaap and other professors received a D.D. from the school, so it is patently ridiculous to assert that they don't grant the D.D. Their own webpages specifically list a number of people that have received a D.D. from HAC. If you want to add information to a wikipedia article, you must cite a verifiable source for your claims. What you are engaging in is called original research and it is specifically banned by policy -- and since this is a biography of living person, we should be taking even more precautions to avoid the kinds of ill-advised edits that you are engaging in. The standard for inclusion is verifiability. Vivaldi (talk) 07:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't enjoy commenting under a section with a title which is a personal attack on me. However, see the comments on the Hyles page for an explanation. The standard inclusion is WP:V, however two letters included in a biography hardly meets that standard. Use of the title Dr. doesn't meet the WP:V either. Many people falsely use that title. In fact Hyles-Anderson has a history of falsely using that title, such as Jack Hyles-- an honorary award from an unaccredited school. That doesn't mean Hyles has a doctorate in the conventional sense. Arbusto 06:16, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Once again Vivaldi reinserted the claims, and no reason or explanation was given on this talk page. Arbusto 22:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In Jack Schaap's book on Marriage, titled Divine Intimacy

The information posted in the article should be cited with page numbers and listed in the footnotes. I haven't read this, nor do I have this. If you do, please add the requested info. This is regarding an edit made by 216.134.171.230. --Kalmia 05:06, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I posted the relavent information with footnotes. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.--NovumTestamentum 22:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] DON"T DELETE THINGS WITHOUT LEAVING EXPLANATON

This article is backed up with proven references. Cgt, if you are going to delete things, tell us why. NovumTestamentum 04:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC)