Talk:Jabberwocky

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Peer review A request has been made for this article to be peer reviewed to receive a broader perspective on how it may be improved. Please make any edits you see fit to improve the quality of this article.

Contents

[edit] Disambiguation

"This article needs splitting into multiple articles and making into a disambiguation page." Oh, for cripes' sake! Wetman 18:03, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Well, the poem should stay here at Jabberwocky. But the film etc should be linked to from Jabberwocky (disambiguation)

It is very few poems which has spawned "fanart" like movies and music. I think this information should be mentioned in the article, instead of just linking to Jabberwocky (disambiguation), like they were just incidentally sharing the same name. --Kasper Hviid 00:54, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Glossary

The glossary on this page only covers the words in the first and last verses. However, those are not the only verses that contain words that Carroll created. Are the words in the glossary the only words he ever defined, or what? If so, should we include the possible meanings of words like "uffish" "galumphing" and "frabjous"? StellarFury 16:19, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

  • Added Frumious, Jubjub, and Bandersnatch which are defined in Snark. --JW1805 20:10, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • I think the Glossary should be in alphabetical order (rather than the order the words appear in the poem). Also, I think only words specifically defined by Carroll should be included. Any other definitions are just speculation. --JW1805 05:17, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I disagreed with this edit, and reverted it back, but others may have a different opinion. As it was, I thought it was redundant. It contained a description of MischMash, which was almost identical to the sentence in the Origin and Structure section. Other definitions have "From The Hunting of the Snark", but don't have lengthy explanations of what that means. If you want to know, you would just click and link and go to that page. It also contained two basically identical sentences ("Four o'clock in the afternoon: the time when you begin broiling things for dinner" and "the time of broiling dinner, i.e. the close of the afternoon"). Also, the sentence about the different spellings of "brillig" should go in the Origin and Structure section, which already contains information about differences with the original version. --JW1805 30 June 2005 18:34 (UTC)

The glossary was missing a few words that were defined in a dictionary I had as being invented by Carroll, so I added those. Sorry if I didn't do it right or anything, I don't update wikipedia on my own very often. --Spencabee

[edit] Punctuation

There are numerous punctuation errors in the poem as it is here in this article. I am proposing this corrected version:

   ’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
   Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
   All mimsy were the borogoves,
   And the mome raths outgrabe.

   “Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
   The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
   Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
   The frumious Bandersnatch!”

   He took his vorpal sword in hand:
   Long time the manxome foe he sought—
   So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
   And stood awhile in thought.

   And, as in uffish thought he stood,
   The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
   Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
   And burbled as it came!

   One, two! One, two! And through and through
   The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
   He left it dead, and with its head
   He went galumphing back.

   “And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
   Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
   O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!”
   He chortled in his joy.

   ’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
   Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
   All mimsy were the borogoves,
   And the mome raths outgrabe.

And I agree (largely). I've used the version from: the project gutenberg edition. At first I was suspicious of the 's --- but the first is a contraction, the others are quotation. The project gutenberg uses only the single quote, you differentiate. You're colons after "wabe" should be (according to gutenberg) semi-colons. Does anyone have access to a more authoratative version? --81.178.104.80 21:49, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

There is an analysis by Warrior Librarian with colons. Chris Capoccia 12:23, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

Beyond Books also uses a colon after wabe. Basically Speaking: Language Arts Rudiments Chris Capoccia 18:36, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, I'd still say the Project Gutenberg edition was most authoritative. --Mathish 12:02, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Stanza or Verse?

Should we talk about stanza or verse?

"Stanza" is the correct word for a group of lines in a poem. However, nobody knows this word.

"Verse" it the word most people understand. However, it really refers to a single line in a poem. --Kasper Hviid 22:02, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It depends on what you're talking about. If you're talking about "stanzas," use the word stanza; if you're talking about verses, use the word "verse." It's the reader's own damn fault if they don't know the difference.
Who can really say what "most people" understand? I think most people would understand English a lot better if we all weren't constantly trying to second-guess the ignorance of others. Use the right word for the job and expect "most people" to use a dictionary if they're not sure of the meaning of that word.
Just link to the stanza and verse articles. Sheesh. --maru (talk) contribs 01:51, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other Topics

I just thought of something... is it possible that this poem is a source of inspiration for the star wars' species of wookies? just a random thought.--naufana 22:31, 11 march 2005

I don't believe a glee club from a university is significant enough to be included as a Derivative Work. This adds nothing to anybody's understanding of Jabberwocky as a cultural phenomenon.--DominicSayers 13:31, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I know nothing of Warhammer except what is on the Wikipedia page. There is no mention of Jabberwocky there but I presume it exists. Nor is there any mention of a "deamon" or "madeins", however I am extremely dubious about the spelling. Unless I am corrected here, I will change these to "daemon" and "maidens" at some time in the near future. In the same vein as my previous comment, I believe this cross-reference sheds more light on Warhammer than it does on this poem: perhaps the link should be from there to here and not the other way round? --DominicSayers 09:32, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

I have reluctantly amended the Warhammer reference, although I would be more than happy for this to be removed altogether for the reasons mentioned above. --DominicSayers 13:47, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

I propose that the link to "vorpal" be removed from the listing. It distracts from the text, and it is linked to in the commentary anyways. -- User:DavidMcCabe 02 November 2005.

[edit] Nonsense or Nonsensical as an Adjective

The edit by 198.54.202.18 at 15:51 on Jun 12, 2005 changed nonsense to nonsensical in the sentence “It is generally considered to be the greatest nonsense poem written in the English language.” Nonsense, while usually a noun, also has an adjectival use. Nonsensical can only be used as an adjective. In my opinion, as long as nonsense is an appropriate word, it would be the better word because it is two fewer syllables. Chris Capoccia 03:00, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

I've always heard the genre referred to as nonsense verse or nonsense poetry, never as nonsensical poetry. Wikipedia has an article called Nonsense verse, and Google returns several hundred thousand more results for the original wording. I think it would be safe to change it back. - EurekaLott 04:35, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Greatest?

I changed it from 'the greatest poem in nonsense verse' to 'one of..' Even it were the "best" nonsense poem by Carroll, it would have to be better than The Walrus and the Carpenter or A Sitting on a Gate, or even Snark. And that's even before considering Edward Lear who I always believed was undisputed master of the genre, and The Dong with the Luminous Nose or The Owl and the Pussycat. Plus there is a awful lot of more recent stuff by e. g. Roald Dahl, Spike Milligan and Ogden Nash. Let's not get carried away.

I think the editor had a more narrow sense of nonsense verse in mind. For example, The Walrus and the Carpenter, although containing a few odd situation, uses no strange words and is fully parsable - it could be argued that tWatC isn't nonsense verse at all. Shinobu 09:50, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Translations

Is it really necessary to have 5 Polish translations on this page? Are these all on a website somewhere that can just be linked to? It seems overkill to have here (maybe more appropriate for Polish Wikipedia). --JW1805 19:18, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Agreed, this is impressive but serves little purpose here. NTK 04:51, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Subpage, or move to Polish Wikipedia and add a note saying "on the Polish page (interwiki link) there are a few translations in Polish". Bye, Shinobu 09:33, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I can't read Polish, but I don't mind having five translations. However, a brief paragraph describing obvious differences so that a non-Polish speaker can understand key points would be useful.--Revth 03:01, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

How were chosen the the translations? In particular, I don't think the French one is very good. I prefer by far the one found in the book « Tout Alice » which is, in my mind, excellent. This one just uses words difficult to pronounce, and this breaks the dynamics of the poem. The one I allude to uses simpler words and is very fluent. Maybe there is a problem of copyright...

  • Since I last visitied this page, the number of translations has multiplied. Now there are also two German and two Danish translations. Where will it end?!--JW1805 (Talk) 01:43, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Why are there translations at all? How different people translate the first stanza into various languages doesn't seem notable and doesn't contribute much to the article. I'm going to remove it unless someone comes up with a good reason to keep it. — ShadowHalo 02:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree with ShadowHalo. From my point of view either removing them from this article and/or creating a new article dealing with those translations would be ok. -- Pichote 08:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chortle

I had no idea the word chortle was invented by Carroll. Interesting... — mæstro t/c, 12:19, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Wocky Jabber

Wocky has it's origins in latin and means "the son of". Jabber means nonsense talk... so Jabberwocky is the offspring of a load of beautiful nonsense. Oh Callooh! Callay! Mr Carol.

Robin

How do you figure that "wocky" has its roots in Latin? I have looked it up and I know 1. that there are no W's used in the Latin language so the only word close os voco, vocare which means "to call". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.152.221.239 (talk • contribs).

In note 7-10 in Barry Mazur's "Imagining Numbers" it's speculated that the "Jabberwocky" is derived from "Kitāb al-jabr wa al-muqābala", the ninth-century work of mathematician Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi, also noting that in Carroll's book the word appears first written from right to left, like Arabic.

[edit] Pronounced as "Bath"?

This might be a very stupid question, but Lewis is English and pronounces his "bath" as "bahth," not "baeth" (short 'a' as in the North American English form, like "cat")--right? So it would be "rath" like "wroth" and not similar to the NAE "rash"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kilyle (talk • contribs).

He was a northerner (born in Cheshire), and pronounced bath the same way that Wordsworth, Ted Hughes, Tony Harrison, and probably most people in the UK do: with a short "a".
chocolateboy 04:07, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

"Carroll emphasized in the introduction to The Hunting of the Snark that the initial syllable of borogove is pronounced as in borrow, rather than as in worry." Can you tell me how Carroll might have pronounced "borrow" and "worry"? I've, uh, changed my last name to Borogove, you see. Kaleja 00:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

"Borrow" like "tomorrow" and "worry" like "hurry".
chocolateboy 09:36, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image linked?

Why is the illustration linked instead of shown? I have never edited images, so I am hesitant to change it -- though I could research how it works and be bold --Scix 19:28, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Forget it, I seem to have gone insane. --Scix 19:29, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reference in The Elder Scrolls series?

One of the the quest rewards is a staff called the Wabbajack. It's different in sound and it's not a precise enough anagram of Jabberwock to suggest a reference, but the Daedric Prince who gives it to you is Sheogorath, whose sphere is madness. His behavior, and the staff's ability are both nonsensical enough to suggest a reference, but I might just be grasping at straws here. --69.66.40.40 08:55, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../j/a/b/Talk%7EJabberwocky_01d9.html"