Talk:J 35 Draken
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[edit] Number built?
Number built? According to Saab information papers 604 aircraft were constructed. The article says 615. What is the source?
- I've changed this to 644 and cited the book Saab commissioned as its official history. The text reads (pg 55): "In all, 644 Drakens were built, 52 being sold to the Danish Air force. Finland, in addition to urchasing a number of Swedish-built 35Bs, also produced 12 of the aircraft at its own Valmet plant." Akradecki 17:05, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] First supersonic
The J35 was the first European-built combat aircraft with true supersonic capability.
removed this as the English Electric Lightning was 8 years earlier.
[edit] Name
- I have heard Mr Erik Bratt, the Chief Designer of the entire SAAB 35 projekt, in person, confirm that the word "Draken" is referring to the shape of a kite, and not to the mythical animal "Dragon"! Alltough, the fact that the word in Swedish do have a double meaning, he said, gave it "An Edge"!
- Also, the Swedish Air Force designation system of airplanes always have a space between the letter and the number, like in "J 35A". It is not correct to write "J35A"! There are no exepctions! A dash doesn't count as space, i.e. J-35 is also incorrect! --Towpilot 02:04, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Supersonic capability
Draken was NOT capable of Mach 2.0. Not even close, the intake design prevents it. J-35F was capable of about Mach 1.6. D might have been somewhat faster, but not Mach 2.--Mikoyan21 11:02, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
- I just verified the specs against two different sources. Both cite 2125 km/h at 11,000 m which is Mach 2. What's your reference? A fixed intake does not automatically preclude Mach 2 performance because the aerodynamic effects of adjacent airframe components (e.g. nose cone) can provide good pressure recovery. F-16 is certainly Mach 2 capable with a fixed intake. - Emt147 Burninate! 16:22, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
- Finnish Air Force stated numerous times that top speed of Draken (they had models B, C and F/S) was about Mach 1.6. Finnish MiG pilots had Mach 2 acceleration as a part of their initiation ritual - this was because MiG was only Finnish plane capable of achieving that speed (ie. Draken was not). Yes, I've also seen it claimed numerous times that Draken was capable of Mach 2. There are several possibilities: one is that Swedes measured ground speed from a plane which was in strong jet stream; other was that they had specificially modified Draken capable of breaking Mach 2 barrier, for promotional purposes. Caveat here is that D was lighter than F, so it may have been slightly faster; however, the aerodynamics were nearly identical so I remain doubtful. --Mikoyan21 19:02, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not questioning your personal experience but again, all of my sources cite Mach 2 as the top speed. It's certainly credible for an extremely low aspect ratio (1.8) aircraft with a thrust/weight ratio of 0.70. Were Finnish Drakens limited to Mach 1.6 by thrust or shockwave hitting the compressor/other airflow-related issues? - Emt147 Burninate! 22:56, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
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- I've always seen intake design mentioned as a limiting factor. As for thrust, Finnish Drakens obviously had same engines as Swedish ones. I admit I'm not expert at all on supersonic aerodynamics, but it is notoriously difficult for aircraft with fixed inlets to achieve Mach 2 (F-16 inlet is of course completely different from Draken inlets). Almost all Draken's contemporaries (MiG-21, Mirage, Starfighter, Lightning etc) had variable inlets. Operationally, the difference is of course not that big because fighters almost never use their top speed in operational use, but it may have been major point in marketing in the '60s, so I wouldn't wonder if Saab for example, built a test plane with modified inlets for breaking Mach 2 barrier. This is of course complete speculation. I wonder if people at NTPS would answer if I asked them, they still operate Drakens.--Mikoyan21 13:08, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
The F-104 inlets are fixed, not variable. MiG-21 and EE Lightning have no choice but to use a variable inlet because the inlet is at the very front of the aircraft. As I mentioned above, with inlets moved further back, the adjacent aircraft structure can be designed to set up the correct airflow and shockwaves. I can only speculate about the Draken but I know for a fact this is how the F-16 gets away with a fixed inlet and Mach 2 performance. I've never seen anything other than Mach 2 written as the Draken top speed and it's not implausible so honestly I never questioned it. I'd be curious what you can find. - Emt147 Burninate! 02:17, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
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- My mistake, I was under impression that those spiked cones in F-104 inlets were indeed movable. At any rate, Draken does not have this feature. My problem with this is that if Draken was capable of Mach 2, you'd expect FAF kinda mention it.--Mikoyan21 09:56, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Certainly an unsatisfying situation, but all the sources concur (or they all cite the same incorrect primary source... no way to tell). - Emt147 Burninate! 17:30, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
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- The only reference I could find here (most of my library is in my other apartment) is Bill Gunston's "The History of Aviation" (Militärflygets historia), it mentions:
- "Later versions carried a heavy bomb load and reconnaissance equipment and still reached Mach 2 (without external bomb loads or drop tanks).
- When you mention it, I also remember having read in Finnish sources that the MiG-21 was the only Mach 2 -capable aircraft in Finland. At the time I didn't reflect over it, but now it makes me curious. The two things that comes to mind is that either the Finns deliberately stated that they did not perform that good at all, saving the little extra as a bad surprise for an eventual enemy, I know they have done so in other cases, the other thing is that they perhaps they did something with the engines in Finland. Perhaps they made some modifications that affected their top speed? This suggestions are however speculations. -MoRsΞ 20:45, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
- The only reference I could find here (most of my library is in my other apartment) is Bill Gunston's "The History of Aviation" (Militärflygets historia), it mentions:
From the book, The Saab-Scania Story, ISBN 91-7886-014-8, page 54: "Equipped with the completely new Rolls-Royce RB Series 300 Avon engine with an afterburner, the 35D became the first Draken to reach Mach 2. The combined D/F prototype made its first flight on 27 December 1960." Akradecki 17:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Image removal
Is there a good reason for removal of the image? Ballista 04:37, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- The source image was deleted from Wikipedia. Don't know why (not on my watchlist) but I would guess incorrect/missing tags and/or copyvio. The same deal on the Viggen page. - Emt147 Burninate! 04:58, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Ahah - that's a good 'nuff reason! - how are press photos from SAAB themselves? - I have a few (some of Draken, too, I think - how would they be affected by copyright? - Ballista 20:21, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- If you know for certain they are promotional photographs, cite author/souce (if know) and tag with {{promophoto}}. Applying the Fair Use clause to photos of modern aircraft is iffy since it is at least theoretically possible for someone to take a non-copyrighted photo of the subject. - Emt147 Burninate! 21:03, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
