Talk:J. Edgar Hoover

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the J. Edgar Hoover article.

Contents

[edit] NPOV

I read through the links on the external links section of the article, and they all look POV to me as they all seem to all be favorable towards Hoover or towards the right wing point of view. It just dosen't feel right that the only external links mentioned here are ones that are favorable towards Hoover or at least indifferent.
JesseG 04:17, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)


"An FBI memorandum dated June 11, 1943, mentions rumors of Hoover being "queer" and keeping "a large group of young boys around him," and notes that such rumors had circulated since at least two years earlier. The memorandum declares such rumors are "profoundly valid" and "undisputable.""

I read through the memo, and I see nothing about the rumors being "profoundly valid" or "undisputable(sic)", so I'm removing the last line. --Ntg 19:12, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)


J. Edgar, he knew that the crux
Of gangster control was big bucks.
Some said he was queer,
But that was a smear;
It's the other Hoover that sucks.

IS there proof that he was gay? I've heard conflicting information. --corvus13

I recently read a very thick book on J. Edgar. The author explored this possibility, but came to the conclusion that there was no conclusive evidence either way.
From Kevin Jeys article October 29, 1998 Elective Affinities, Part I:
“… The three men most responsible for the anti-Communist hysteria of the 1950sJoe McCarthy, J. Edgar Hoover, and Roy Cohn — were all gay, then a serious, punishable offense in the United States. This information was common knowledge among Washington insiders, but was not considered among those subjects the public enjoyed "a right to know," even though the closeted frolics of Hoover and Cohn, and the sympathetic machinations of McCarthy in aiding the latter, resulted in direct damage to the nation. Mafia dons obtained photographic evidence of Hoover’s more or less monogamous relationship with longtime lover Clyde Tolson, and used it to blackmail Hoover and thereby deflect FBI attention from mob activities for more than 30 years; only under relentless pressure from Attorney General Robert Kennedy did Hoover at last admit the Mafia might even exist. Cohn, throughout his life a voracious consumer of young men, attached his friend David Schine as an "unpaid consultant" to McCarthy’s Senate Investigating Committee; together the two toured Europe at taxpayers’ expense, scouring American libraries for "subversive" material and ultimately consigning some 30,000 books to the ash-heap. Back in the US, Cohn attempted to use his clout as McCarthy’s chief counsel to shield Schine from military service; when the Army balked, McCarthy and Cohn pronounced the service riddled with Communists, breaking and humiliating scores of guiltless men before they were finally shamed off the national stage by Army counsel Joseph Welch and broadcaster Edward R. Murrow. …”
What level of proof is needed?

This is cute and amusing, but not up to Wikipedia standards:

President Richard Nixon's comment's on hearing that Hoover had just passed away ("That old cocksucker? We thought he was immortal.") cannot be taken literally, due to Nixon's well-documented prediliction for prevarication. — So I took it out. --Ed Poor
You don't trust the poster or Nixon? Who? - Sparky 17:46, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Gay or not; there should be more to tell about a person who may have influenced somebody´s life. Even fairytales may help to cover the gap between actual presence and oblivion.

J. Edgar was buried along side Tulson (his alleged lover) according to here ( http://www.straightdope.com/columns/021206.html ). Perhaps someone can include, and verify, these facts and put them into this article? --ShaunMacPherson 04:09, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)


Uh, the most important fact regarding the life of Hoover was not his sexuality, but his huge control of domestic spying in the United States for nearly a half century. Hoover created in the FBI the core of a police state that in many cases ran roughshod over constitutionaly protected civil rights of anyone that was opposed to his moral agenda or politics. To the extent that everyone now just assumes that if the government wants to it can just tap your phone lines, read you mail, and show up at your work at will to harrass you, is the huge nasty legacy of Hoover's FBI and his maniac desire for power and control. Please somebody edit this article to summarize much of the recent scholarship on his life and influence. (I am obviously too biased.)

Presumably the relevance of his sexuality is that it demonstrates his extreme hypocrisy. Ben Finn 14:35, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
His spying is part of the discussion on his work. His personal life is part of his biography. In this particular instance, it is perhaps appropriateto include some disputable details on his sexuality, because:
  • it does indeed show him as an hypocrite
  • The relationships he may have formed would have had a major influence on his work.
  • The concealment it involved may also have had a major influence on his work.
  • It illustrates the effect of the homophobe culture attitude at the time.
  • He is an extremely notable figure, and it is apprpriate to describe even the less respectable part of his bio
  • The material being discussed is public, and has been very widely discussed in the media.
  • He is not a living person. [if he were, there would be libel problems]

It does have to be presented with an eye to the reliabiity of the evidence, but this is not original research, because obviously secondary sources are being used, and this material has been compiled before. (I am not planning to contribute in any signif way to the article, btw; I was lead here by a link from elsewhere. ) DGG 18:09, 27 September 2006 (UTC)



"notions that he was a crossdresser, however, have been cited as urban legend" - but I recall photographs that had come to light of Hoover dressed in women's clothing at a party being published in The Times in the 1980's. The Times is a reputable news source. Unfortunately I don't have a subscription to The Times' online archive so I can't search for it. Ben Finn 14:33, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The photos don't exist ....

And neither does "La Cosa Nostra"!!! An 'upstanding' (he sure was ;) Presbyterian like Hoover could not possibly be [gasp] gay!!! These are all vicious rumors spread by Hoover's enemies!!! (if you believe that, then I have a pair of Clyde Tolson's edible undies to sell you ....)

Oh sure, and an upstanding christian like Jimmy Swaggart would never have commited adultery. No way.

[edit] Any connection with Herbert Hoover?

Was he a relative, maybe remote one, of President Herbert Hoover, or it's just a coincidence? Crocodealer 12:29, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

J. Edgar Hoover and Clyde Tolson are not buried side by side. Although they are both buried in the Congressional Cemetery in Washington D.C., Hoover is buried in his family plot. Tolson is buried more than a dozen graves away. More innuendo, perhaps? Dr. Dan


[edit] J. Edgar Hoover's ethnic backround

What was Hoover's ethnic backround? I need his ethnic backround for a report on him.

Call him a bastard (in a biological sense). You will not be wrong. (rs)


No one is really sure. You should try google and read up on the various theories that he was hiding mixed racial ancestry. Catherine Huebscher

[edit] "Passing as a white"

This statement, "and of passing as white while persecuting others with similar preferences and backgrounds." sounds racist to me. Many white people see the injustices caused by people of their own race and attempt to fix them, so unless he was doing this unjustly (and this can be explained), I feel this statement should be removed.


I agree --169.237.220.243 21:44, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not entirely certain I understand. The statement says that Hoover took an anti-black stance, but covered up his own, partially black heritage. It's meant to draw attention to his alleged hypocrisy. It is opinion, not fact, but it certainly isn't an innately racist statement. 85.65.116.80 02:02, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Birthplace

My understanding is that Hoover was born in Washington, D.C. on January 1, 1895.

[edit] Fear of turning left

How about the story I heard that Hoover had other bizarre eccentricities such as a phobia of making left turns in vehicles. He would therefore insist that his chauffeur never made any left turns, thus sometimes requiring very complex routes to be pre-planned in order to get him to his destination? Or is this an urban myth? 84.70.146.224 23:17, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What is the Annie Reference?

J. Edgar Hoover referenced in Annie the Musical?

I'm aware of the President Hoover references (much blamed for the depression of the era) but J. Edgar? Can we get a citing on this?

[edit] Hoover/Johnson conspiracy theory

There is very popular theory in Russia that Edgar Hoover and Pres. Lyndon Johnson have planned the murder of President John F. Kennedy. I wonder if it's widespread in the US, whether there are any English-language references and why is it not reflected in the article.

It's fairly widespread, but most Wikipedia users are hesitant to add conspiracy theories to mostly factual articles. I suppose a link to Kennedy_assassination_theories might be in order, but anything more seems excessive, in my opinion. At least until the entire article is expanded. 85.65.116.80 02:06, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is this truly right?

Copied from article "J. Edgar Hoover "

"Nevertheless, in 1966, he received the Distinguished Idiot Award from President Stupid Johnson for his role as Director of the FBI."

I removed it. You can do it yourself next time, if you like. Either way, it's gone. --Darth Deskana (talk page) 21:22, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Freedom-of-Information files on Hoover

I strongly recommend the book by David J. Garrow on the FBI and Martin Luther King, Jr. It is especially relevant today in 2006, as concerns re-surface over the government's powers to use electronic surveillance. Garrow gathers and weighs the evidence quite carefully, and his analysis actually rebuts some commonly-held beliefs as to the motives of Hoover, even by people who were eyewitnesses. Additional evidence should be forthcoming in the year 2026 AD, when MLK's papers will be unsealed. Hopefully, this serves as another clue to researchers in the future.

[edit] Freemason?

I wasn't aware that Hoover was considered (in fiction? what work of fiction?) to be a member of the Freemasons. I think someone should include a reference or remove the accusatory statement from the article, no matter how innocuous the statement itself might seem. --Kooky (talk) 23:21, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

True (sorry to say) Hoover was a mason, which proves that every basket have a rotten egg i guess.--Sneaking Viper 04:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
If it is, could you provide a reference? Maybe someone should integrate that statement into a more relevant section of the article. --Kooky (talk) 04:44, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Visit or call the Masonic HQ in DC. Hoover bequethed his belongings to them and they are exhibited in their museum.

[edit] Hoover's investigation into the Kennedy Murder

Hoover personally directed the investigation into the murder of President John F. Kennedy which is often called the "Crime of the Century." He decided from the beginning, that public information should be issued that the November 22, 1963 murder was the work of a sole assassin named Lee Harvey Oswald. Just hours after Lee Harvey Oswald was murdered, Hoover, said that he wanted "something issued so we can convince the public that Oswald is the real assassin." [1] However, by this time, Hoover already knew through the FBI's own surveillance and CIA data that someone had been impersonating Oswald attempting to contact a "hit man" at the Soviet Embassy in Mexico two months before. According to a recent report on PBS, this information “electrified” top Washington insiders and has been kept secret for over 40 years. [2] - - Hoover conferred with Nicholas Katzenbach of the Justice Department about how to approach an investigation of Kennedy’s murder, and on November 25, 1963, the day after Oswald was murdered Katzenbach drafted a memorandum stating among other things that: -

-

The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that the evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial. . . . Speculation about Oswald's motivation ought to be cut off, and we should have some basis for rebutting thought that this was a Communist conspiracy or (as the Iron Curtain press is saying) a right-wing conspiracy to blame it on the Communists. [3]

- - President Johnson, who also knew about the Oswald impersonator, then appointed the Warren Commission which conducted most of its proceedings in secret. The FBI acted as the primary investigative arm of the Commission, and Hoover testified to the Commission:

-

I have been unable to find any scintilla of evidence showing any foreign conspiracy or any domestic conspiracy that culminated in the assassination of President Kennedy [4]

- - Neither Hoover nor his agents who testified revealed to the Commission that Oswald had been to the FBI office in Dallas shortly before the assassination and left a letter for one of the agents who had been trying to contact Oswald. Once Oswald, himself, was murdered while in police custody, the agent who received the letter was ordered to destroy it and its contents remain a mystery. Then the FBI agent's name was deleted from the list of names in Oswald’s address book before being turned over to the commission. [5] - - The secret proceeding by the Warren Commission and later secret investigations have not satisfied the American public that it has been told everything about the assassination and believe the government has something to hide. [6] In response, any of the secret documents held by the FBI surrounding the Kennedy assassination have been ordered declassified and released through an act of Congress in 1992, and the process was started by the Assassination Records Review Board. Many of the documents have still not been released including documents that may show whether Oswald was ever on the payroll of the FBI or CIA. [7]

--Awiseman 21:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

This is stuff that RPJ has been trying to insert into the Lee Harvey Oswald and other JFK assassination articles for some time now, to the opposition of most other editors. There's been ample discussion about it on those talk pages. Gamaliel 21:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I figured it was probably nonsense or original research, but it's here just in case. If anything, maybe the fact that he's subject to being a part of conspiracy theories should be mentioned. --Awiseman 22:05, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Gamaliel should read the citations PBS; a Congressionally created board, a specially appointed congressional committee. Gamaliel will have to follow the rules of the website all substantial viewpoints must be allowed in especially when they are from reputable sources. There is no original material. There is no reason to delete it even if one is a strong admirer of Hoover. That is a basic rule of this web site.

RPJ 03:41, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hoover's murder investigation re Kennedy

The information about Hoover's role in the murder investigation of President Kennedy is well documented.

Hoover personally directed the investigation into the murder of President John F. Kennedy which is often called the "Crime of the Century." The first citation in the Kennedy murder section of the article refers to a report by a congressional committee called the House Select Committee on Assassinations. It issued its report in 1979 after a three year investigation into the assassination of John Kennedy, Martin Luther King, and Robert Kennedy. [8] The report by the Congressional Committee was critical of the performance by the FBI as well as other agencies.

The second citation in the section on the Kennedy murder is to the PBS Frontline news show. It was reviewing the official government records that “electrified” top Washington insiders and have been kept secret for over 40 years. These secret documents were obtained by the Assassination Records Review Board many years after they were sealed away from public disclosure. The once secret documents are fascinating, especially as reviewed by PBS. [9]

Hoover conferred with Nicholas Katzenbach of the Justice Department about how to approach an investigation of Kennedy’s murder. The former Attorney General was grilled by the HSCA 15 years later on why he was intent on convincing the public that neither a left wing conspiracy or a right wing conspiracy was involved in Kennedy's assassination. The copy of his memo is carried by Lancer. [10] If the reader wants the full version of the testimony by Katzenbach the reader should go to the House Committee Report.[11] President Johnson, along with Hoover, also knew about the Oswald impersonator right away that certainly tends to show a right wing conspiracy with an impersonator pretending to be Oswald trying to contact a "hit man." [12] Maybe there would be another motive for impersonating Oswald trying to contact a hit man other than to frame him. I don't know what it would be.

There is no question the FBI, under Hoover, acted as the primary investigative arm of the Warren Commission, and Hoover testified to the Commission as seen from these once secret transcripts of the Warren Commission hearing:

I have been unable to find any scintilla of evidence showing any foreign conspiracy or any domestic conspiracy that culminated in the assassination of President Kennedy [13]

The testimony is unsealed now.

There is no secret anymore about the FBI destruction of evidence. They were caught and its now public knowledge. There is a full pulic record. The agent involved even wrote a book about it. [14]

The American public does not believe the conclusions reached by the Warren Commission and believes the government has something to hide. This is what the Assassination Records Review Board believes. [15]

Conclusion

Therefore, any editors that think there are other reputable sources that have information please put it in. One should not simply delete well known and documented information just because one doesn't like it. If that were the criteria for deleting information, then Wikipedia would be at the mercy of every public relations firm in the country. Nothing "negative" can be written about a public figure because his or her publicist may find it unpleasant and delete it claiming the information is a "theory." No, the information is documented by reputable sources.

What I can't figure out is why Mr. Hoover's sexual life gets so much space, and yet someone doesn't want information on Hoover's job performance on the biggest case of Hoover's career.

RPJ 03:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

This has been discussed to death on the JFK assassination pages. You failed to find any support for the insertion of this material there and you're not presenting anything new here. Of course Hoover's job performance should be discussed, but in an NPOV manner. Conspiracy theories about Oswald doubles should not be presented as fact, as you have done. Gamaliel 03:48, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please stop deleting 25 lines of well researched and cited material

No, Gamaliel is incorrect. He and another person seem frantic that a PBS news show that casts J. Edgar Hoover in a bad light should be cited to in Wikipedia. Why? I don't know. May be Gamaliel has an idol worship of Hoover, may be he works for the FBI. I just don't know. But what I do know is that the PBS show is well documented and it does show exactly what has gone on behind all the secrecy with the Kennedy murder.

Under the policy of this web site every significant viewpoint on a subject such as Hoover and the FBI is to be included in the Hoover article and that will allow the reader make up his or her own mind about the man. Yet some annonymous person calling himself Gamaliel can't seem to understand that he does not have the right under the rules of this web site to delete materials by labeling the information "conspiracy theory." Gamaliel must know he is wrong attempting to do this, but doesn't care. RPJ 05:22, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

The conspiracy theory of one person (Newman) is not a significant viewpoint. Even if it were, it should be presented as a viewpoint, not as a fact, as you have repeatedly done. You're not even trying for NPOV. Gamaliel 05:34, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I might add, for the benefit of those who haven't seen the previous discussion on this issue, that RPJ is not presenting facts from a "PBS news show". A single page from an extensive supplimentary website for a Frontline documentary on Lee Harvey Oswald presents a conspiracy viewpoint by one John Newman. The documentary does not present any of this Newman material and presents a straightforward and unequivocal case for Oswald's guilt. Gamaliel 05:47, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Look, this is getting nowhere, you guys ought to request Wikipedia:Mediation. --Awiseman 15:42, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gamaliel doesn't address the point

The previously secret government documents have now been released. There is no conspiracy "theory." Now,there are simply the facts as contained in government documents. This is what has made Gamaliel frantic. The Assassination Records Review Board was created by Congress in 1992 to find and publicize these closely guarded secrets. The Assassination Records Review Board has done its job on finding and disclosing the secret documents of the CIA and FBI regarding the Oswald impersonator that Hoover, President Johnson and the other high level insiders knew about and have hidden for 40 years.

All Gamaliel wants to do is now hide these known facts from Wikipedia readers claiming it is a "theory."

The odd thing about Gamaliel's argument is that even if it were only a theory about the existence of government documents showing the exisentence of some one impersonating the alleged assassin of President Kennedy, the "theory" should be put in the article because the theory is espoused by a respectable source, and all significant points of view should be included.

Finally, Gamaliel deletes everything else that he doesn't seem to like for no apparent reason.

70.137.184.160 19:52, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] “occasional shortcuts”

The term “occasional shortcuts” in

Comstock's reputation for relentless pursuit and occasional shortcuts in crime fighting.

is spin. A phrase that doesn't wink should be used. —12.72.71.31 12:22, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Where is this in the constitution?

This isnt exactly about Edgar but i saw this line written here "United States' Constitution prohibits its citizens from being knighted (or receiving similar honors) by foreign royalty."

Ive glanced over the US constitution site and couldnt find anything about this. Is this correct? Im curious where its to be found at. Thanks. Sojourner99 01:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


"No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince or foreign State." see Article I, section 9. --Mnemeson 01:41, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hoover as librarian?

I am editing the list of "notable librarians" which includes "people notable in other fields who have worked as librarians". Hoover is listed there , but I can find no evidence that he has ever been a librarian. I know little beyond the WP article, which does not mention it. Is anything known about this? DGG 22:47, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wholesale Deletions

Here is a diff page that shows the removal of whole sections dealing with Hoovers alleged cross dressing, homosexuality, mafia ties, and african-american ancestry. These are admittedly controversial topics, but I think they have been written in an NPOV way by many editors. The statements even refer to the sources that are making the claims, in the text. To remove this info wholesale should be reconsidered. I suggest that it be restored in total and any arguments to remove the text be made on the talk page. Mytwocents 07:32, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Misinformation?

Here is a diff that shows a systematic reversal of older statements. Did Hoover support or oppose the internment of Japanese during WWII? Did he fire people because of there looks? Was he gay? Did he have black ancestry? The "watch the borders" story sounds like a cute tall tale, is it true? I think the older version of the page is more accurate than what we have now. We should revert the page back to the earlier version. Mytwocents 05:44, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I've reinserted a couple of paragraphs and corrected the misstatement that he "supported" the WWII internment of Japanese Americans. In general, this article really needs the attention of someone willing to research the subject, fact-check everything and add about a bazillion reputable-source references for all of its many contentious, questionable or plain weird-sounding statements. KarlBunker 13:04, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree. This page needs some cleanup. I think it's a potential good article. It is a fairly well balanced article about a very controversial figure in history. Some of the writing need to be smoothed up, better formatting, and some fact-checking Mytwocents 16:52, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
This statement was removed recently;

Despite this, Hoover was also known to be a supporter of civil rights and liberties on several occasions, most notably for his vocal opposition to the mass internment of Japanese-Americans that took place during World War II.[citation needed]

Did Hoover defend civil right during his carreer? If so, it should be told in the article to balance the dark picture most people have of him. Mytwocents 17:33, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I removed that sentence, and noted my reason in my edit summary: I saw a few historians/biographers who were in agreement that Hoover's motivation for opposing the internment was not a love of civil rights. Rather he believed that the FBI was aware of every Japanese American who was likely to pose a threat to the U.S., and all of them were either arrested or under surveillance. So he saw the internment as both unnecessary and an insult to the FBI. If he was ever a supporter of civil rights, this was apparently not an example. KarlBunker 20:05, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Innuendo

I recently deleted the cross dressing information because the information is largely unsourced, and the one source that is used may not satisfy WP:RS. If someone can source this info, then it should return. Ramsquire 00:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

When Hoover died, Clyde Tolson inherited his estate of approximately $1,235,000 and moved into his home, having also accepted the flag that draped Hoover's casket. Tolson is buried a few yards away from Hoover in the Congressional Cemetery.

An additional allegation that Hoover was also a crossdresser is generally considered to be an urban legend, though rumors still exist that the New Orleans and Chicago Mafia had blackmailed Hoover with photos of him in drag and performing homosexual acts. These rumors (that were detailed by journalist Anthony Summers) are used to explain why he allegedly never went after the mob, but according to sources in the Mafia, no such photos existed [16]. Other sources claim that Hoover pursued them zealously after being ordered to go after the Mafia. However, Peter Maas, a notable journalist, has criticized accusations that Hoover had deep ties with the Kennedy family, and these allegations in turn were heavily criticized in Anthony Summers's book on Marilyn Monroe.[citation needed]