Talk:Jürgen Habermas

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Contents 1 Old talk 2 Silly Question 3 Diarrhea 4 Wrong photo? 5 Quotes? 6 Weasel words 7 Habermas as pragmatist 8 Editing that needs to be done 9 Good Article 10 Constitutional patriotism 11 Anglo-Saxon 12 wikification

[edit] Old talk

When this article was placed on the Wikipedia:Featured article candidates page, I stated that the section explaning his philosophy was handicapped with jargon -- & was greeted with an assertion that the problem of comprehension lay with me, rather than the text. My use of the word "jargon" was to point out a number of words that obscure the meaning of this exposition of Habermas' philosophy (if I may use it in the German sense of the word as a comprehensive viewpoint), rather than to help enlighten it. Allow me to illustrate these obscurities with this account of a critical reading ("critical" in the sense to extract information) of the 2 paragraphs I have a problem with.

Habermas's main aim has been to construct a social theory that is also a non-oppressive and inclusive universalist moral framework.

My immediate response to this sentence is "that's nice, but why should I care?" This sentence contains a number of terms that I suspect from the context have specialized meanings, & perhaps may not be identical with how I am accustomed to using them. "Construct" is perhaps the most obvious example: in normal conversation it is used to describe the building of a physical object, while here I know it refers to the systematic exposition of a philosophical viewpoint.

Another term is the phrase "non-oppressive". I'm not aware of any social theory that was constructed with the explicit purpose of being oppressive, although some can be abused -- as can any social theory -- to justify social ills such as warfare, slavery or class systems (if this is what is meant by "oppression"). Does the appearance of this adjective imply that Habermas has offered a critique for all existing social theories of why they end up abused to justify "oppression"? If so, what is his explanation; the failure to explain his critique leads me to feel that I have walked into the middle of a discussion, where much has already been agreed to & I am now excluded from understanding.

All of which leads back to the question, "that's nice, but why should I care?" Because this is expressed on such an abstract level, I see no obvious way to connect this to daily questions of morality or ethics. It has as much relevance to me as the interminable debates over the nature of Christ.

The framework rests on the argument that all speech acts have an inherent telos--the goal of mutual understanding, and that human beings possess the communicative competence to bring about such understanding.

Here the hyperlinks signal again that technical words are being used: "speech acts" have a meaning possibly different from what I might expect; "telos", is clearly an unknown word, possibly borrowed from from the Greek, yet is crucial for understanding this sentence; even "understanding" is flagged, whcih suggests the word possibly has a restricted meaning. Even worse, when I first read this sentence, neither "speech acts" nor "telos" linked to existing articles, & I was left with no way to remedy my ignorance.

The term "speech acts" particularly adds obscurity to this sentence. Are we to assume that this refers to de Saussure's theory of communication? The right of free speech -- & if so, according which legal definition? Or is it limited to only the act of exercising it? This is why a "featured article" must needs be self-contained.

Habermas built the framework out of the speech-act philosophy of Austin and Searle, the theories of moral development of Jean Piaget and Lawrence Kohlberg, and the discourse ethics of his Heidelberg colleague Karl-Otto Apel.

Here is my only clue to the possible meaning of the term "speech acts", which verifies that this is a defined term, an example, if you will, of jargon. If I was familiar with Austin or Searle, I could then draw an inference about what this term meant, & know precisely what the second sentence attempted to convey. But at this point, it's hard for me to conclude otherwise than to say, "Yes, people use language to oppress one another. I was taught in Sunday School that lying is bad." Or, if I wanted to be a little less low-brow, I could allude to what George Orwell wrote in his essay, "Politics and the English Language", where he demonstrates how the abuse of words for political gain leads to their loss of meaning.

But obviously Habermas's intentions was more than to serve as a gloss on Orwell's observations.

Within sociology, Habermas's major contribution is the development of a comprehensive theory of societal evolution and modernization focusing on the difference between communicative rationality and rationalization on the one hand and strategic/instrumental rationality and rationalization on the other.

Again, I am left with a feeling of standing in a fog bank of abstractions. I can infer from the context that there are two binary sets of qualities here: the use of reason in communicating, in for example speaking to another person, opposed with "rationalization"; & the use of reason in a larger sense -- apparently as either a guide to live one's life by or as a tool to infer truth from evidence -- again opposed with "rationalization". However, this inference gives me nothing I can use to distinguish Habermas' thesis from simple common sense. I have a vague unease that the word "rationalization" is meant in a specific, restricted sense, but I cannot infer its meaning from the context. Are we talking about Sophistry, the skill of persuasion taught in ancient Greece which Plato condemned? (If I were to say "Joe's explanation is a rationalization", I am identifying Joe's argument as a deceptive justification for an act that he cannot morally defend.) However, there is not enough here for me to accept or reject this supposition about the word "rationalization", & I am left with drawing a facile interpretation. Civilization obviously developed from people persuading each other to do their biddings, & people persuaded themselves how to live their lives; parsing this sentence, I am left with what I feel is a simplistic explanation, & puzzled why this should be considered a new insight.

This includes a critique from a communicative standpoint of the differentiation-based theory of social systems developed by Niklas Luhmann, a student of Parsons.

Here is a clue that my interpretation of the previous snetence is missing some subtle point. Habermas obviously expounded something new about the act of communication, but because of the undefined use of the term "speech acts" above, I have no way to understand what it is. I might as well be trying to understand the differences between Monophysitism and Monothelitism.

His defence of modern society and civil society has been a source of inspiration to others, and is considered a major philosophical alternative to the varieties

of poststructuralism. He has also offered an influential analysis of late capitalism.

I have no significant problem with these sentences, although it would be helpful to know who have been inspired by Habermas, & if they are activists or philosophers.

Habermas sees the rationalization, humanization, and democratization of society in terms of the institutionalization of the rationality potential that is inherent in the communicative competence that is specific to the human species, has developed through the course of evolution, but in contemporary society is suppressed or weakened by the way in which major domains of social life, such as the market, the state, and organizations, have been given over to or taken over by strategic/instrumental rationality, so that the logic of the system supplants that of the lifeworld.

Here I find a confirmation of my suspicion that "rationalization" has a restricted meaning in this essay. Could it mean the sum of literature, but in the manner people use to communciate to each other -- the author, alive or dead, speaking to the reader, & transmits her/his ethics & judgements? I have no way to know, & no way to know if this is even Habermas' own terminology; students, as they explain their master's ideas, inadvertently alter them, & thus come to transmit their own ideas. And if this is the case, then I am left wondering how it relates to alternate POVs -- for example, Roland Barthes & his assertions that the reader ought to be the master of the text, rather than the author. -- llywrch 00:54, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

• A lot of Habermas scholars freely admit that he leans too heavily on jargon. It can make him very difficult to study and interpret, as you rightly pointed out. On a possibly unrelated note, sociology in general has sometimes been accused of hiding behind jargon since its perceived failure in the 60s. I think that's interesting food for thought, for both the human and natural sciences. I'm with Barthes on this one too... -- Colm O'Brien 19:35, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

---

This is one of the best articles I've seen on wikepedia, so I am not inclined to mess with it. Still, it seems rather breathless, something one doesn't usually associate with an encyclopedia article. Shouldn't some misgivings that many people have with Habermas's theory be mentioned, such as it not being clear that he has integrated the life-world idea, with its "authentic communication", very successfully with the system theory? Or that Habermas never really answered Luhmann's point that Habermas' notion of the ideal speech situation is hopelessly utopian, because of the problem of time pressure? Finally, the reader of this piece would be surprised to learn that, largely as a result of these problems, Habermas' reputation as a theorist has been eclipsed in Germany itself by Luhmann's.

Also, one could mention that Habermas's stubborn pro-Americanism (at least until the Iraq war of Bush 2) alienated many progressives. Hyperion 04:31, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Silly Question

I give up! Why is Habermas's face disfigured? Was it deformed at birth, injured in war? Not that it makes a difference. Lestrade 17:15, 2 October 2005 (UTC)Lestrade

Habermas has a cleft palate, for which he also had painful surgery as a small child. He discussed this for the first time in public in his talk when receiving the Kyoto prize a year or two ago: Public space and political public sphere (pp. 2-4). Jeremy J. Shapiro 17:53, 2 October 2005 (UTC) Gedavis 22:11, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Diarrhea

This article suffers from way too many run-on sentences. These make understanding very difficult. I know the trend now is toward obscurity and diarrhea, but

It may not be unreasonable to generalize that schematic terminology such as poststructuralism, trafficked heavily in the United States but virtually unknown in France yet imported into some of Habermas's readings of his French contemporaries, inflected their exchanges with the vitriol of the "culture wars" which had begun to rage in the American academy and helped overheat matters at a time when many prominent European academics saw strategic value and career opportunities in extending their influence in America, arguably the world's largest market for academic imports.

is an atrocious sentence. Unreadable. 198.59.188.232 22:02, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

• Agreed. This article is horribly written. I will see what I can do in the next week or two, and hopefully others will do the same. --Valve 07:24, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong photo?

Are we sure that's a picture of Jurgen Habermas? There's a theologian called Gary Habermas who seems more likely to be found conversing with cardinals. You can see a photo of Jurgen Habermas here, although I can't tell if it's the same man as the one in the article's photo. --The Famous Movie Director 01:29, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Having seen Habermas in person as well as in many pictures, I would attest to the fact that a) this is a photo of Jürgen Habermas and b) it actually looks quite similar to the one on www.vernix.org, it's just from a different angle. Whether a photograph of him with Ratzinger is the ideal photo to use is a separate question. Jeremy J. Shapiro 02:20, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree that it's definately him, but I don't think that it's the best one. Associating him so directly with the church isn't really appropriate. Euchrid 03:27, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I've added another photo—not a particularly good one, but I hope it'll be okay for the time being. <KF> 23:52, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

As we seem to agree it's his photo, I've restored it - 3 photos is not too much.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 02:29, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Nice photo?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 16:33, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes?

Does anyone who knows Habermas' work feel like putting a few key quotes on Wikiquote and linking this article to that? That would be very useful for those like myself who want an introduction to the man's work. Ewjw 08:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel words

His work has been called Neo-Marxist - please see the entry on weasel words and change the article accordingly. '-129.247.247.238 10:15, 10 May 2006 (UTC)'

[edit] Habermas as pragmatist

The Habermas article is entirely too focused up front on the neo-Marxist beginnings of his contribution to political thought. Early on, he endeavored to bring pragmatism into Critical Theory, more than to advance neo-Marxism. His work after 1980 left neo-Marxism behind in terms of the pragmatics of communicative action mapped broadly into contemporary social sciences and philosophy.

I was surprised earlier today to see that the Wikipedia article on pragmatism not only has no subsection on Habermas, but no mention of him. I made that point at the "Talk" feature of the pragmatism article. Also, I've edited the first paragraph of the Habermas article to simply indicate Habermas' association with pragmatism, which is a keynote of his career.

I admit, I'm biased toward the basic conceptual character of his contributions over his applied political work. Gedavis 22:19, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Editing that needs to be done

MAJOR WORKS:

Someone has done a number on that list, as the years seem meant to refer to German editions, but some of the English titles are only available in English and were published on dates different from what's indicated, as compilations of scattered German/English work. E.g., Communication & the Evolution of Society is English-only, 1979 (not 1976, the date of "What is Universal Pragmatics?"). On the Pragmatics of Communication is English-only, 1998 (not 1992). "Technology and Science as Ideology" (listed as 1968) is actually an essay within Toward A Rational Society (1968, I believe; not 1967). Justification and Application was indeed 1991 in English, I believe, but the German was 1988? Give up the confused idea of German publication dates for English titles. Legitimation Crisis, 1975; TCA, 1984/1986?; MCCA, 1991; and most others should be changed.

SEE ALSO:

Delete reference to Bioconservatism and Zoran Đinđić. It may be appropriate to link from those article to the Habermas article, but not the converse, as neither relates substantially to Habermas' concerns (as far as I know).

EXTERNAL LINKS:

The Johns Hopkins Guide is a subscription service---and the article there provides less information than Wikipedia"?

Gedavis 01:13, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article

This article is NOT Good Article material. There is no referencing, and there are too many lists throughout the article. I can't verify a lot of the information in the article as well (and there are no sources). --GoOdCoNtEnT 22:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Constitutional patriotism

I've just set up an article on constitutional patriotism, if anyone wants to help expand it. It might also be worth a mention in this article. Cordless Larry 00:47, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anglo-Saxon

Hi, I'm interested in Habermas and his ideas, but I would like help from an expert. Is it regarded that the work of Habermas is a resolution from the origins of the Anglo people and the Saxons?Withit 02:38, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] wikification

there is way WAY too much wikifying here. i suggest that lots of it be removed. JoeSmack ^Talk 14:49, 4 December 2006 (UTC)