Talk:Islamic sexual jurisprudence
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[edit] Millionth topic pool
I was quite surprised to see this perfectly legitimate and encyclopedic topic on Wikipedia:Millionth topic pool. --BD2412 03:09, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Burqa Use
- How "common" is the burqa? I thought it is only worn in a few countries and not universally there. Its use in Afghanistan for example has declined sharply since the fall of the Taliban. I believe it is almost non-existant in some of the largest Muslim countries such as Indonesia and Turkey. --Polynova 03:20, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
- My gut response, from seeing footage of Muslim countries on TV is to say that it's pretty common - but that is frankly a response based on ignorance. I could be completely wrong, but I anticipate that someone who knows more than I will come along and correct any of my misperceptions that may have leaked into the article. --BD2412 03:33, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Hmm, I haven't been to the Middle-East but I lived in SE Asia for along time and Polynova is right, it's not particulary common in Indonesia or Malaysia and I wouldn't say it's that common among Muslim living outside Muslim countries, it was certainly not my experience in Dublin, Ireland living across the road from the biggest mosque in Ireland (it's not that big though, there aren't that many Muslims here) nor in any other countries I've visited... Anyway don't take this as an attack, it's not really a big deal, but I think it's best to remove the word "common" if it's being disputed. I think use of the khimar, the headscarf or veil is more common however I don't know how to integrate that into this article... there is more info at Hijab, External Hijab and Islam and clothing if you're up to it! :-) -- Lochaber 11:27, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Agree with removing "common". Not up to additional research on this topic just yet (hands full with law topics) but if no one else expands on it, I will get back to it at some point. -- 8^D BD2412gab 12:36, 2005 Mar 24 (UTC)
- Instead of using burqa, why not say Hijab so that all sects of Islam are included?
- Agree with removing "common". Not up to additional research on this topic just yet (hands full with law topics) but if no one else expands on it, I will get back to it at some point. -- 8^D BD2412gab 12:36, 2005 Mar 24 (UTC)
- Hmm, I haven't been to the Middle-East but I lived in SE Asia for along time and Polynova is right, it's not particulary common in Indonesia or Malaysia and I wouldn't say it's that common among Muslim living outside Muslim countries, it was certainly not my experience in Dublin, Ireland living across the road from the biggest mosque in Ireland (it's not that big though, there aren't that many Muslims here) nor in any other countries I've visited... Anyway don't take this as an attack, it's not really a big deal, but I think it's best to remove the word "common" if it's being disputed. I think use of the khimar, the headscarf or veil is more common however I don't know how to integrate that into this article... there is more info at Hijab, External Hijab and Islam and clothing if you're up to it! :-) -- Lochaber 11:27, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- My gut response, from seeing footage of Muslim countries on TV is to say that it's pretty common - but that is frankly a response based on ignorance. I could be completely wrong, but I anticipate that someone who knows more than I will come along and correct any of my misperceptions that may have leaked into the article. --BD2412 03:33, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Prohibitions on sex
- Re: "Although the Quran specifically forbids intercourse during a woman's period of menstruation, there is no other general prohibition on sexual relations within the marriage itself." Isn't sex prohibited in daylight hours during Ramadan? I believe it is also prohibited to those making the hajj pilgrimage. If this is true, the quoted section needs to be changed. --Polynova 03:20, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
- Ah, here I was going entirely on what I read on the first external link, which seemed fairly comprehensive. If I'm wrong, see response to question 1. --BD2412 03:34, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[edit] revision
A REALLY GREAT job! I propose to take a look att the Muslim guild to see some proposed standards regarding hadith and Quran quotation. Also, i insit on having the fatwa included. again, a great job!
--Striver 03:43, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
- Agh, I was going in phases and we were editing at the same time ... I *hope* I got whatever changes you made reconciled back into it; sincere apologies if I didn't. Hadith ... definitely want to root through and pick out at least one unified, sourceable translation rather than the slapdash deal. And if you've standards for quoting them, I'd love to see them. :) Qur'an passages are Haleem just because it's the one on my desk right now ... honestly, might have to switch them out to Yusuf Ali or something; copyright, fair use, yada yada. Since it has to be in english I hate to lose the comprehendible style english, though. --M. Landers 04:22, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] External link removed
66.226.196.12 removed this external link from the article, Critical article on Sex and Sexuality in Islam from Islam Review, explaining "I have removed the following link because the article is absolutely false, wrong, and incorrectly and grossly portrays women in Islam." I do not disagree with this assessment, but I do not know enough about the topic to discern if that is an accurate characterization of the article, and would welcome additional comments. Cheers! BD2412 T 05:21, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Homosexuality
"It is not always clear whether or not the Qur'an specifically refers to female homosexuality."
Actually it seems to be very clear on the matter, as can be seen from these various translations: [Noble Qur'an]
004.015 - 004.016
YUSUFALI:
15 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.
16 If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL:
15 As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation).
16 And as for the two of you who are guilty thereof, punish them both. And if they repent and improve, then let them be. Lo! Allah is ever relenting, Merciful.
SHAKIR:
15 And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.
16 And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
They all seem to say that what is prohibited to women (lewdess or indecency) is also prohibited to men and lewdness or indecency may be taken to mean (in part) homosexuality. This can be seen from the story of Lot taken from . . .
007.080 - 007.081
YUSUFALI:
80 We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you?
81 "For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds."
PICKTHAL:
80 And Lot! (Remember) when he said unto his folk: Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?
81 Lo! ye come with lust unto men instead of women. Nay, but ye are wanton folk.
SHAKIR:
80 And (We sent) Lut when he said to his people: What! do you commit an indecency which any one in the world has not done before you?
81 Most surely you come to males in lust besides females; nay you are an extravagant people.
Thus:
... lusts on men in preference to women ... (007.081 : YUSUFALI) is identified as commit(ing) lewdness (007.080 : YUSUFALI) and lewdess is the same for women as it is for men.
[edit] rape
Here is some guys comment:
The Arabic word ightisaab refers to taking something wrongfully by force. It is now used exclusively to refer to transgression against the honour of women by force (rape).
This is an abhorrent crime that is forbidden in all religions and in the minds of all wise people and those who are possessed of sound human nature. All earthly systems and laws regard this action as abhorrent and impose the strictest penalties on it, except a few states which waive the punishment if the rapist marries his victim! This is indicative of a distorted mind let alone a lack of religious commitment on the part of those who challenge Allaah in making laws. We do not know of any love or compassion that could exist between the aggressor and his victim, especially since the pain of rape cannot be erased with the passage of time – as it is said. Hence many victims of rape have attempted to commit suicide and many of them have succeeded, The failure of these marriages is proven and they are accompanied by nothing but humiliation and suffering for the woman.
Islam has a clear stance which states that this repugnant action is haraam and imposes a deterrent punishment on the one who commits it.
Islam closes the door to the criminal who wants to commit this crime. Western studies have shown that most rapists are already criminals who commit their crimes under the influence of alcohol and drugs, and they take advantage of the fact that their victims are walking alone in isolated places, or staying in the house alone. These studies also show that what the criminals watch on the media and the semi-naked styles of dress in which women go out, also lead to the commission of this reprehensible crime.
The laws of Islam came to protect women's honour and modesty. Islam forbids women to wear clothes that are not modest and to travel without a mahram; it forbids a woman to shake hands with a non-mahram man. Islam encourages young men and women to marry early, and many other rulings which close the door to rape. Hence it comes as no surprise when we hear or read that most of these crimes occur in permissive societies which are looked up to by some Muslims as examples of civilization and refinement! In America – for example – International Amnesty stated in a 2004 report entitled “Stop Violence Against Women” that every 90 seconds a woman was raped during that year. What kind of life are these people living? What refinement and civilization do they want the Muslim women to take part in?
The punishment for rape in Islam is same as the punishment for zina, which is stoning if the perpetrator is married, and one hundred lashes and banishment for one year if he is not married.
Some scholars also say that he is required to pay a mahr to the woman.
Imam Maalik (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
In our view the man who rapes a woman, whether she is a virgin or not, if she is a free woman he must pay a “dowry” like that of her peers, and if she is a slave he must pay whatever has been detracted from her value. The punishment is to be carried out on the rapist and there is no punishment for the woman who has been raped, whatever the case. End quote.
Al-Muwatta’, 2/734
Shaykh Salmaan al-Baaji (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
In the case of a woman who is forced (raped): if she is a free woman, the one who forced her must pay her a “dowry” like that of her peers, and the hadd punishment is to be carried out on him. This is the view of al-Shaafa’i, and it is the view of al-Layth, and it was also narrated from ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib (may Allaah be pleased with him).
Abu Haneefah and al-Thawri said: the hadd punishment is to be carried out on him but he is not obliged to pay the “dowry”.
The evidence for what we say is that the hadd punishment and the “dowry” are two rights, one of which is the right of Allaah and the other is the right of the other person. So they may be combined, as in the case of a thief whose hand is cut off and he is required to return the stolen goods. End quote.
Al-Muntaha Sharh al-Muwatta’, 5/268, 269
Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
The scholars are unanimously agreed that the rapist is to be subjected to the hadd punishment if there is clear evidence against him that he deserves the hadd punishment, or if he admits to that. Otherwise, he is to be punished (i.e., if there is no proof that the hadd punishment for zina may be carried out against him because he does not confess, and there are not four witnesses, then the judge may punish him and stipulate a punishment that will deter him and others like him). There is no punishment for the woman if it is true that he forced her and overpowered her, which may be proven by her screaming and shouting for help. End quote.
Al-Istidhkaar, 7/146
Secondly:
The rapist is subject to the hadd punishment for zina, even if the rape was not carried out at knife-point or gun-point. If the use of a weapon was threatened, then he is a muhaarib, and is to be subjected to the hadd punishment described in the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“The recompense of those who wage war against Allaah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter”
[al-Maaidah 5:33]
So the judge has the choice of the four punishments mentioned in this verse, and may choose whichever he thinks is most suitable to attain the objective, which is to spread peace and security in society, and ward off evildoers and aggressors.
The crimes of kidnapping, robbery and transgression of the Muslims’ sanctity by way of open and audacious hostility is a type of muhaarabah (waging war against Allaah and His Messenger) and doing mischief in the land, which deserves the punishment mentioned by Allaah in the verse in al-Maa’idah, whether that aggression is against people’s lives, wealth or honour, or it is scaring wayfarers and cutting off routes (banditry). It makes no difference whether that happens in cities, villages, the desert or the wilderness, as is the correct view of the scholars (may Allaah have mercy on them).
Ibn al-‘Arabi said, telling of the time when he was a judge: Some bandits were brought before me who had gone out to attack a group of travellers. They took a woman by force from her husband and the group of Muslims who were with him, and carried her off. Then they were hunted down, caught and brought to me. I asked one of the muftis with whom Allaah tested me about them and he said that they were not muhaaribeen, because haraabah (the crime of waging war against Allaah and His Messenger) applies only with regard to wealth, not rape! I said to them: To Allaah we belong and unto Him is our return (said by Muslims at times of calamity). Do you not know that haraabah (aggression) against honour is worse than aggression against wealth? All people would agree to lose their wealth and have it confiscated from them rather than to see aggression committed against their wives or daughters. If there were any punishment more severe than that which Allaah has mentioned, it would be for those who kidnap women. end quote.
http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=1006050803122
--Striver 03:41, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
