Talk:Islam and clothing
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I moved things around a lot and added some new material. Zora 09:07, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
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13 October 2005 BismillahirRahmanirRaheem, asSalaamu 'alaa manit-taba'al Hudaa. In the name of Allah, Lord of Mercy, Giver of Mercy, Peace to all those who follow guidance. As there seems to be much misunderstanding about the nature of women's (and men's) dress in Islam from Muslim and non-Muslim alike, I changed the extreme examples of women's dress section to Women's dress according to Qur'an and Sunnah. Obviously this necessitated a new article. This is the first time I have browsed the Islam section of Wikipedia, and it seems probably not the last. Thanks to all the folks who got this started, and to Allah, The Most Glorious, Most Exalted. If there are any questions, comments or suggestions I can be reached at mustafahammouda at yahoo dot com. I will be doing more editing as time allows, insha'Allah.
About the ablutions... I linked to another page.
- Muslim has nothing to do with ablutions, so I removed the link. Dry ablutions are covered in Wudu, which is already linked to this article. Zora 02:13, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
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- 13 October 2005
- To Zora: Ok, since I can't figure out how to drop a message on you directly, as you neatly did to me, insha'Allah, you will read this. While it's tempting to just revert the whole thing back to the state it was in at my last edit, it would be pointless and silly to start something like that, as you would clearly just revert it back again. Since editing this section I have had the chance to read through the Articles and Discussions affiliated with other Islamic topics, in particular, Abu Bakr. It would seem that there are some ettiquetes and guidelines I was not altogether aware of. So as far as POV issues go, a number of the changes I made were very slanted, but cerrtainly what is there now is dripping with bias. While you may not agree with it, the niqaab is obligatory on Muslims, and I posted extensive documentation in this regard. I'm curious to know if you actually read the haadeeth posted, as if you do they explain those verses of the Qur'an which you refer to in the beginning. If anyone would like to dispute this, just bring the evidence. The article state that abaya and hijab (by which, I assume, khimar is meant) are required, and the niqaab is optional, without giving any evidence for what amounts to a fatwa, something neither of us is qualified to give.
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- So, while my edits were slanted, they were my attempts to compensate for the fact that pretty much the entire article is thoroughly POV in a manner that is not even particularly subtle. I find some of the material contained in this article downright offensive. In addition, a number of assertions are made throughout the text which receive no supporting evidence of any kind. If you are going to define Islamic Clothing, it obviously has to be defined as according to Islamic Law, otherwise it is just clothing that Muslims wear. If you are going to determine Islamic Law, you must go to the Qur'an _and_ Sunnah, something which Muslims are good at acknowledging, not as good at adhering to. Obviously, I am not an unbiased observer to these proceedings. Neither, however, are you or anyone who is human. I can, though, do my best to write objectively, and from a thoroughly legalistic frame of reference, and insha'Allah I will do this in whatever I post in the future. I intend to go through this article more systematically, and raise my concerns issue by issue, and post recommendations here for discussion before perorming any actual edits. For now though, I would very much appreciate it if you would remove the section entitled "Extreme versions of women's modest dress", and the paragraph preceding it, until such time as less disparaging and prejudicial topic headings and content can be agreed upon.
- Thank you,
- Mustafa Hammouda mustafa_h
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- "While you may not agree with it, the niqaab is obligatory on Muslims", that is where you go wrong. As you say this is about the various interpretations of sharia and so it must be viewed from that framework. It is clear to me that niqab is not the only view, and, it does tend to be minority -- especially in practice. There's the whole wajib vs. sunnah debate and how many believe it was only incumbent upon the wives of the prophet. There is variance among opinions, there is not "one Islamic law" in the pragmatic sense which we address. I do somewhat agree with you that "extreme forms" might not be a good way to characterize it but you made this article an argument for why to wear niqab... and, that is not what an encyclopedia does. We are not a debate forum on what should a pious Muslim lady wear. Also, you're correct that khimar should replace hijab in that sense. gren グレン 01:13, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
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Dear Mustafa,
Not all Muslims recognize Qur'an and Sunnah -- some are Qur'an Alone Muslims. Those Muslims who do see the Sunnah, as recorded in the hadith, as useful, do not agree on the use to be made of it. There are millions of Muslims who think that "modest by the standards of the society in which I'm living" is good enough. Extreme or strict hijab is practiced by a minority of Muslims. You can't just say, as if you were a new prophet, that this is the CORRECT way and the other Muslims have it wrong. If you try to impose your POV on the article, other editors will intervene.
We can change the word "extreme" -- how about "strict"? Zora 03:32, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Page needs work
This page really needs some work. It appears to have just been taken from an Islamic website, and the neutrality and overall usefulness is questionable, at best. The layout is also awful, and it lacks any pictures to illustrate its content. Someone with some objective expertise/experience needs to rework this page.
- There's a previous version that is much less pious, and has a few pictures, but we've been having a little revert war here with me against a pious Muslim editor and an editor who is angry at me and reverting my edits on principle. I'll revert back to the previous version, but could use some help maintaining it. Zora 18:42, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
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- I think the article sorely needs illustrations. I came here looking to find the names of some garments of Pakistani origin that I have in possession, and pictures would be indispensible in that. __meco 16:58, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Harprit's version
Harprit your version is completely unnaccetable because of its copyright. Islam Q&A's license states "Permission is granted to all to take material from this site, subject to the following two conditions: (1) Material used must be attributed to www.islam-qa.com , (2) Material must be reproduced faithfully and without alteration or omission. And Allaah is the Source of strength." We cannot follow this license because wikipedia demands that derrivative works are allowed. We will not reproduce anything that needs to be full reproduced to not violate the copyright holder's legal rights. Your version does this. Please stop now because on this article this is not a POV war, this is a matter of legality which you are in violation of. Please stop taking the material from that site. You may write in your own words citing them and then users can come to consensus on what is proper there, however even if your version was more NPOV we could not use it. Thanks gren グレン 07:59, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Moved huge chunks to Hijab
There was a lot of duplication of material between here and the article on hijab. Being very bold, I moved all discussion of everyday modest dress to Hijab and left this article exclusively for Muslim religious dress -- which was the original intent, as I recall (I started the article). Perhaps we can change the title back? Zora 05:52, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
