Talk:Irish Setter

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I really did go through ALL the photos on stockxchg, really I did, and rejected bunches for reasons like this one--out of focus and not a very clear depiction of what the breed looks like. But I won't argue about it being here since we don't have a lot of other breed shots. Elf | Talk 00:51, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Jumping Dog Picture 2 Polish Links 3 AKC? Really? 4 Working Red Setters 5 More on Registration 6 Recombine Red Setter with Irish Setter

[edit] Jumping Dog Picture

Good picture, Quadell. An action shot for an active breed.Wcrowe 21:51, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Polish Links

(There's a joke in there, somewhere) I removed the links to Polish Setter sites. This is an English webpage. Additionally, anonymous edits piss me off in general.

Now now... don't bite an all ;) -- sannse (talk) 23:45, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] AKC? Really?

At some point the following paragraph was added:

In recent years, an effort has been mounted to return this breed to the hunting field. To do this, an outcross was suggested, but the American Kennel Club (AKC) (the predominant registry for Irish Setters) did not approve the plan, as the AKC focus on this breed tends to be in the show ring rather than the field.

This paragraph doesn't ring true. Surely it is the national breed club, the ISCA, who sets the breed standard, and would be the ones to make a ruling on this. The Dogfather 19:35, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

If it's anything like in the UK, I believe the situation is something like this. The individual Irish Setter club, whichever that may be represents the breed and owners as a group for whatever area it's based in and has its own show and the like, but ultimately (in Britain) it is the Kennel Club which makes decisions such as this regarding all breeds of dogs. I may be completely wrong however. My knowledge of the breed's history (as well as the differences between European and American Setters) is reasonably extensive and I keep meaning to add more to this article, but my knowledge of the community set-up is limited. I know others who know it very well however and will raise this point the next time I see them. - Hayter 19:44, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Some of my (agility) classmates were talking the other week about some breed (don't recall which) in FSS or Misc class that the AKC wanted to close the stud books on but the breed club didn't want to--maybe i misunderstood, because I know this is complicated. I'll try to track down whoever it was and see whether I can get clarification there, too. Elf | Talk 20:03, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Because I thought this paragraph so suspicious, I wrote the ISCA and inquired about it. Here is the response I received (in part):

I do not see the purpose in highlighting the dispute which arose within the Irish Setter community during the 1950's. One breeder elected to cross English Setters with Irish Setters and was able to register them with the FDSB. The Irish Setter Club of America asked AKC not to accept those dogs into the AKC registry. This request was granted. Today almost all our field-bred stock is registered with AKC. AKC takes no position about preferring show stock over any other breeding lines. That statement in your article is incorrect.

I also believe that your statement about the FDSB being the predominant registry for English Setters in incorrect. Some English Setters, as well as field bred Irish Setters, are dual-registered with AKC and FDSB.

Field bred dogs are referred to as Irish Setters according to AKC and to the Irish Setter Club of America, which is the Parent Club for Irish Setters in the United States.

Sincerely,

Connie Vanacore

AKC Delegate

ISCA Foundation Board member

Author of the "Official Book of the Irish Setter,( TFH publications, 2000)

This explanation is good enough for me, I think think a removal of that portion of the article is in order.The Dogfather 20:16, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I posted the portion that was removed. I am certainly willing to defer to those who know more about the breed than I, however I believe that all of the information was accurate. I have just done a bit of follow up research to make sure. The book "Gun Dog Breeds" by Charles Furgus has a lengthy discussion of the outcross and resulting FDSB registered hunting Red Setter. There is a long series of articles on this in Gun Dog magazine as well that is searchable on that magazine's website. It seems rather one-sided to remove all reference to the debate because one of the parties, namely the AKC, would prefer that it not be highlighed.

Counsel

Connie Vanacore, the AKC delegate, implies that the AKC registry is on equal footing with the FDSB with respect to certain breeds, especially those who are of field lines. This is incorrect. The AKC is predominantly a bench show registry; while many hunting breeds (including the Irish red setter) are dual registered, the FDSB registry is considered the dominant registry for breeds that are used for hunting and field trialing. Ms. Vanacore also noted that a "breeder elected to cross English Setters with Irish Setters and was able to register them with the FDSB." This statement trivialized the efforts of that breeder (Ned LeGrande) and also the efforts of dozens of breeders who worked with him. The origins of the National Red Setter Field Trial Club are immersed in that effort, and it certainly does merit "highlighting", if not the dispute, certainly the results, for it is those efforts which gave the Irish red setter its restoration as a bird dog. AKC field lines, by the way, are also descended from those outcrossing efforts of the 1950s. The AKC ban on reciprocity did not occur until 1975, and was instigated by the Irish Setter Club of America (ISCA), a predominately bench and show organization.

I also note that it is stated by the AKC delegate that the ISCA is the "parent club" for Irish setters in the United States. That is also not true... the ISCA is the representative breed club for the AKC in the United States. It is not the parent club for the United States. In fact, the National Red Setter Field Trial Club (which also has a breed standard) is the parent club for FDSB Irish setters. Breed clubs do not have exclusive rights over all aspects of the breed, in that there are more than one canine registry in the United States. AKC historically has had exclusive reciprocity rights with international breed clubs; however, that is also changing, especially in the working dog community, as more hunters and field trialers encourage registries not to be bound to the bench show mentality that permiates many of the registries in the USA and Britain.

Allen Fazenbaker Member of the Board of Directors National Red Setter Field Trial Club http://www.nrsftc.com

[edit] Working Red Setters

I posted a bit above this. Still new to Wiki.

I have found an even longer discussion of the development of the Red Setter on the National Red Setter Field Trial Club's website. (I added a link to the Irish Setter article). Perhaps this information would be better placed under an article on the "Red Setter" rather than the Irish Setter article. I do not have a dog in this fight, HA HA. I hunt primarily flushing dogs and I certainly do not intend offend anyone. It just seems that if one were using Wikipedia to research Gun Dog breeds, an article that leaves all of the information about the Field Dog Stud Book Red Setter out does the breed a disservice. As the article stands, it states that this is now primarly a house pet breed. While this may be true for the majority of the dogs, it is not the whole truth and is not the purpose for which the dogs were bred initially.

--Counsel 03:10, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Unless the distinction exists in the US, "red setter" is simply an erroneous term for the irish setter. - Hayter 09:06, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

It's not a question of taking offense, but a question of accuracy. I too have hunted with dogs all my life. What are often thought of as "breeds" in the field are not recognized as breeds by kennel clubs. The "Brittanies" I hunted with in my boyhood would not conform to the breed standards for Britannies as found in most kennel clubs around the world (those dogs were clearly cross-bred with English setters). Many people who work dogs in the field don't care about breed standards, but only how well the dogs work. I recommend you create an article on the Field Dog Stud Book and explore things from that angle. You can then create a "see also" link in the Irish Setter article to point to that information. In my mind this approach would satisfy everyone and would also be accurate.The Dogfather 16:06, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good. I will get started on it. --Counsel 16:38, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

This is an excerpt from a bit in Gun Dog magazine from the February/March issue of 2005. Yes I am one of those types who keeps the old magazines filed much to my wife's chagrin. As an inset to a much longer article on the Irish Setter this mini-article on Nomenclature was included. Perhaps it will be helpful. This is from page 42 of that issue:

"Though 'Irish Setter' is still the general and popular name for this Mahogany-coated gun dog, 'Red Setter' is also used by some to distinguing the more newly developed and so-called 'hunting' version of this breed from the old-style 'Irish Setter' show dog. Adding to the confusion are those who feel the original Irish Setter gun dog was never entirely lost to the bench folks but instead was maintained by a few avid game-bird hunters in North America and Europe. This remnant, the arguement goes, still exists as the original Irish Setter and has been successfully bred to revive the pure breed. Adding to the controversy and confusion are breeders who combine the so-called pure and original 'Irish' setter to produce the 'Irish Red Setter'. Many hunters who just want a good gun dog don't care about those distinctions". --Counsel 16:53, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More on Registration

The AKC delegate stated among other things that he did not thing that the FDSB was the predominate registry for English Setters, however according to the AKC site only 657 English Setters were registered witht he AKC in 2005. It is not hard to imagine that the FDSB which registers primarily pointing breeds and registers 5,000 litters a year would be the predominate registry.

I think that the information about the field bred Red Setter is better posted on the Irish Setter article (rather than a separate Red Setter article). I have verified all of the information that I posted and found at least two sources to back each portion of it. I understand that as far as this breed is concerned the AKC may be uncomforatable with a portion of the history as it is one of the breeds most often cited in criticism of that organization. --Counsel 21:53, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recombine Red Setter with Irish Setter

I think that Red Setter should probably be a topic within this article, per Seanoquinn|Counsel's info above. See Talk:Red Setter. Elf | Talk 17:54, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Perhaps stick all of it under a heading entitled "Red Setter Controversy" with the photo there.--Counsel 18:20, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I added the merge tag to both pages. Just to clarify my position, I think Red Setter should be brought into this, rather than the other way around. - Hayter 13:21, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

If you look at the merge tags they can be made directional. I have done so for you. Fiddle Faddle 09:50, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I mean a controversy heading on the Irish Setter Page.--Counsel 17:08, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

As owner of two Irish Setters from kennels devoted solely to breeding Irish Setters for field work, I very much disagree with lumping Red Setters together with Irish Setters. In fact, the field champ photo on the Irish Setter page is the grandfather/uncle of my older and younger dogs. My guys are smaller than the AKC show standard with a less showy coat but very much have the distinctive Irish Setter look. Quite frankly, the so-called Red Setter may have Irish Setter blood in them along with a bunch of others and that is something quite different from the Irish Setter. If folks want designation of Red Setters as a distinct breed native to the US, fine. Petition the AKC and other governing bodies for such recognition. My guys are pure Irish Setter AND every other twig on their family tree ARE field champions. Infusion of the Red Setter into the mix either in actual breeding or reference pages is unneccessary and unwanted, thank you very much. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Red Dogs in the house (talk • contribs) 00:03 8 October 2006 (UTC).

I moved the unsigned bit above to this spot as it seems to fit here better. The statement above is a bit contradictory. It starts out saying that the Red Setters (presumably the FDSB dogs) should not be lumped in with the AKC Irish Setters, but finishes by saying that if the Red Setters want to be recognized as a separate breed they should petition the AKC, inter alia, for such recognition. The anonymous author seems to believe that the AKC is the sole authority on what a dog is. The FDSB has already recognized them. Many of these owners do not want AKC recognition as they see it as detrimental to the working characteristics of the breed. The fact that one of the dogs on the page is both the grandfather and uncle of your dogs is exactly what many see as a primary problem with AKC breeding. My guess is that many of the dogs in your family tree have FDSB Red Setter blood if they are all field champions. The two were officially mixed liberally before the AKC-FBSB split and surreptitiously afterward. I continue to support combining and placing the Red Setter material under the heading "Red Setter Controversy"--Counsel 00:28, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment: the unsigned note above implies that the "field champ photo" shown on the Irish Setter page is "pure Irish Setter". For the record, that particular dog (Brophy's Absolute Power) is (like nearly all of Brophy's bloodlines) a direct descendant of the outcrossings of the National Red Setter Field Trial Club. "Unsigned" should do his/her homework and look at the pedigrees of his dogs... they are indeed "red setters." Brophy blood lines are founded on the lines of Col. Ed Schnettler's Saturday Night Kennels. Col. Schnettler was an avid supporter of the National Red Setter Field Trial Club and an avid contributor to the Purest Challenge. To state that such dogs are "pure Irish setters" is a meaningless statement, as virtually all Irish setters (both show and field) have been outcrossed with other breeds (as most canine breeds have been for years). The term "red setter" is used by most hunters and field trialers to distinguish Irish setters who still have hunting ability from those show dogs that do not. Counsel notes (correctly) above that the separation of AKC and FDSB lines took place long after the liberal mixing of FDSB and AKC genepools. He is absolutely correct. The "red setter" should NOT be placed in a separate category, either by AKC or any other registry. They are registered as "Irish Setter" in the FDSB registry as they have been for years. I reiterate... the split on AKC and FDSB took place at the insistance of select members of the Irish Setter Club of America, who in 1975 petitioned the AKC to prohibit reciprocal registration with FDSB Irish setters. Allegedly the request was due to concerns regarding illicit outcrossings; however, most field trialers of the time comment that the superior ability of the FDSB red setters was also a factor. The National Red Setter Field Trial opposes the establishment of a separate breed category for red setters. Our dogs are Irish setters. If anything, it is the Irish setter show dogs which should be given a separate category, for it is those dogs who have departed from the intent of the breed, which (to quote the AKC breed standard) is to breed "an active, aristocratic bird dog...afield, he is a swift-moving hunter" Unfortunately, most Irish Setter show dogs today are not bird dogs, and therefore are in gross violation of their own standard. The FDSB Irish setter (AKA: red setter) is 100% birddog... we meet the primary criteria of both our standard as well as that of the AKC.

Allen Fazenbaker Member, Board of Directors, National Red Setter Field Trial Club