Talk:Ireland national rugby union team

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[edit] Flags and shamrocks

There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rugby union as what symbol should be used to represent Irish rugby union. If you have an opinion then follow the link and scroll to the bottom of the page.GordyB 22:14, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The upshot of the vote was that a Shamrock should be used. I have used the image from the article of the same name. . To use the image copy / paste the following code. The '20' defines the size of the image, to rescale it use a higher / lower number.GordyB 14:17, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[[Image:Irish clover.jpg |{{{1|20}}}px]]

[edit] Anthems

According to a Press Association report today, no anthem was used for Ireland rugby matches prior to the introduction of Ireland's Call in 1995. This is in contrast with the claim in the article that: "When Irish internationals were played alternately in Belfast and Dublin, the British national anthem "God Save the Queen" was played for matches in Belfast and the national anthem of the Republic of Ireland "Amhrán na bhFiann" was played for matches in Dublin - uniquely in the international rugby community no anthem was played at away games." --beano 00:44, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Just found this " Before 1995, God Save the Queen had been played at Irish rugby matches in Belfast, and the Irish anthem in Dublin." however putting the reports together I think this refers to league matches, not internationals. beano 01:02, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Support for Ireland

The article claims that both unionists and nationalists support the Ireland team. I think this is a little naive. Nationalists, of course, would support a united Ireland team and moderate unionists also support the team.

I don't believe that hardline unionists do nor loyalists either. IMO walking round certain areas of Northern Ireland wearing an Ireland shirt would invite stares and / or abuse.GordyB 14:12, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

• Since when does support for a Rugby team relate only to the wearing of a shirt? The facts are that some Unionists have actually played for the Ireland national team (Tyrone Howe(UUP), Trevor Ringland (UUP) and Davy Tweed (DUP)) and of those I think most would desribe Tweed and the DUP as hardline unionists. The article does not claim that everybody on the island of Ireland supports the national team but I think you'll find large numbers of people in England who do not support the English national team either Dodge 11:37, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

UUP=moderate unionists, Tweed=an exception.GordyB 11:59, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Any sources/references for your opinion? Dodge 12:13, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll try to google one.GordyB 16:43, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

From personal experience, I think you're actually more likely to find a unionist wearing an Ireland rugby shirt in Belfast than a nationalist. Rugby is seen by some as an English sport in Ireland, and hence was traditionally boycotted by nationalists who would rather support Gaelic games, though I think it is image has started to decline amongst nationalists in recent years. I believe it is a similar situation for Irish cricket Jonto 16:16, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I was talking about the harder line unionists and loyalists rather than mainstream unionists, not many Northern nationalists like English sports as you say.GordyB 16:43, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

English sports? Ridiculous comment. I'd say there are more Man Utd or Liverpool fans in nationalist areas than all other sports team together. Its a fact that not many people, period, actively support the rugby team but those who do come from all areas of the island. What can you possible query about it? Dodge 17:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I need remind you of the GAA's opinion of 'barracks sports'. Soccer is less of an issue than cricket or rugby union because it is a mass sport rather than a favoured pastime of the British ruling class. Irish nationalists also tend to support Catholic teams, Man City and Everton have had succesful eras in the past but never got much of an Irish nationalist fan base.

Rugby union is in Ireland like most countries a largely middle class sport. In Northern Ireland this tends to mean 'moderate unionist'. Most unionists that like rugby union will support Ireland but a minority support Scotland or see Ulster as a de facto Northern Ireland team. The claim that the Ireland rugby union team is something that unites nationalists and unionists is broadly true but is a bit naive.GordyB 20:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Agin, have you any sources for your claim that some rugby fans in Ulster support Scotland over Ireland? It seems to me you're trying to make a much bigger deal of this than it actually is. Irish nationalists DO NOT consider the religous affiliations of any club when supporting them (bar Celtic obviously). Even the examples you mentioned are wrongas Everton are the catholic team but Liverpool having far more fans here. Dodge 20:57, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Liverpool are the Catholic team. Ever noticed that both Man Utd and Liverpool have tended to buy players from Celtic whereas Man City and Everton have tended to buy them from Rangers? Sources will be posted tomorrow.GordyB 21:00, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

OK we're going off topic here. The point remains those clubs are not supported because of their non existant religious persuasions but because of their success. No other reason. Getting back to rugby and your opinions Dodge 22:04, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Poll held on Ulster Scots site [1] , similar themes [2] and [3] (not the main article - just one of the comments). The support for Scotland is anecdotal i.e. a friend of mine's cousin is from Belfast but chooses to support Scotland even against Ireland. There's no need to go into detail in the article about exactly who unionists support, the vast majority of them support Ireland but we should not claim that they all do so. GordyB 09:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

So you reject me giving Davy Tweed as an example but you then give your mate as an example. Suggest you leave this topic alone as its obvious you have an agenda Dodge 10:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't give him as a source I said it was anecdotal and didn't see a need for its inclusion. I also gave three sources, how many more would you like, As for partiality I wrote half this article, what did you contribute?GordyB 10:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

A poll on Ulster Scots and Everything ulster is in no way unbiased, so your sources lack credibility. I agree the article shouldn't state everybody supports the Rugby team but the team does receive widespread support in Northen Ireland, so why not mention it. particulalry when you've written an article on the flag issue? How does your contribution equate to your impartiality? Dodge 12:35, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

It is a biased source I don't deny it. I'm not saying that it in any way reflects unionist opinion other to prove that particular opinion exists. I did not write the flag and anthem section I wrote something about the four province flag, Ireland's call and the soldier's song. This was expanded from one paragraph into a full blooded section which I later contributed to somewhat. IMO there is no need to go beyond the fact that the team receives widespread support within Northern Ireland, a detailed break-down of unionist opinions towards 'their national team' (or not) is more appropriate in Rugby union in Ireland.GordyB 15:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

"IMO there is no need to go beyond the fact that the team receives widespread support within Northern Ireland" Agree 100% Dodge 15:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I've reworked it though I'm not 100% happy with my final version. It is very difficult to write it in such a way as to be true and not misleading. If I say that the Ireland team are the only team to draw support in both Irelands this is untrue because the international rules football team and RoI soccer team do (albeit not so much with unionists but still enough people in NI do to warrant 'widespread') but as it stands it implies that a unionist community exist in the RoI and that the RoI is divided along NI lines.GordyB 16:32, 20 September 2006 (UTC)