Talk:IQ and the Wealth of Nations

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This article has been cited as a source by a media outlet. See the 2004 press source article for details. "Finlands statsminister i rasistskandal" (August 10, 2004). Dagens Nyheter. [1].

Archive 1

Contents 1 IQ is not intellgence 2 First Paragraph 3 Those tests don't prove anything 4 Unacknowledged Rushton Citation 5 Article vs. Book Comments 6 Steve Sailer

[edit] IQ is not intellgence

IQ does not measure intellgence. Intellegence is a vauge and unscientific term. "She's smart" is something children say. No test can measure intellgence. That's like saying, "I want a test that will measure bravery". Instead,

An IQ test measures how adapted a person is to the culture of whoever made the test

Most IQ tests are made by Westerners. Westerners are rich, and being well adapted to the Western enviroment means you will be rich as well (maybe). Therefore, a high IQ means you will be rich, possibly. Of course, there are many ways of becoming rich without having to adapt to Western ideals. The Japanese have shown this. They are rich. They are Eastern. Triumphantly so. In summary, to all you "race concious" bigots with physician friends from Papua New Guinea out there:

IQ does not measure intellegence!

I suggest you check out the average IQ scores of east asians then.
By the way, you're right, IQ is not intelligence but it correlates closely with it (g), depending on the individual IQ test. --Nnp 22:45, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is rather interesting that the Japanese manage to not only become rich without adopting Western ideals, but also to outperform Westerners on their supposedly biased IQ tests. One might wonder why there is systematic racial variation in the ability to beat the white man at his own game. Tomyumgoong 22:51, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

The IQ test is valuable because it makes accurate predictions. The APA issued a statement saying that IQ differences exist, the test is not biased, and it makes reasonably accurate predictions. It remained "agnostic" on the issue of its origin, be it genetic or cultural. I think the APA's statement is covered in Wikipedia's article on the bell curve by Murray & Herrnstein.

[edit] First Paragraph

I modified the first paragraph a bit. You do not argue a correlation exists; it either does or does not. One argues the causation of the correlation. My change reflects this, that they demonstrate a correlation and arguably attribute it to differences in IQ. The word arguably, strictly speaking, is not needed, as it is the authors' opinion, and is almost by definition arguable and not universally agreed upon unless stated otherwise. But I didn't delete it. If others agree, they should delete it.

As a Psychology Phd student I think it is important to note that "intelligence" is just a concept that has been defined differently over time in many different cultures (see the works of Gardner on multiple intelligence for another definition of intelligence). By definition, an IQ or intelligence quotient test is a number, designed to represent (with a standard margin of error), "intelligence" usually conceptualised as verbal and numerical ability - in line with western methods of education. Hence the strong correlation with educational results. Most IQ test such as the Stanford-Binet and the Weschler are not "culture-free" and therefore extremely biased to western-style educational environments. As a consequence, they do not actually measure what is commonly understood to be intelligence at all in most non-western societies. It would be like, travelling to ancient Egypt, being given an exam in heirogliphics on Ancient Egyptian mathematical and linguitic items (with very little instruction) and then being told how "smart" you are as a result!

Yes, it's fair to think of "intelligence" defined by psychometricians as the ability to "succeed" in the modern world. This is an intentional "bias".--Nectar 19:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Those tests don't prove anything

That's nonsense! Those IQ-Tests are all cause they don't prove anything. Remove this topic. Those IQ tests are lost in the time. Look, today we can't say that someone is intelligent or not. We must ask in wich area this person is intelligent. Of course the people who live in poor countries would not get good results at those ridiculous tests. But I'm sure they can do lots of things that we can't. Things that weren't included on those "tests". Many people think that these things are not important and or irrelevant...

FWIW, I happen to think the conclusions of Lynn and Vartanen are nonsense. However, the book has attracted a good deal of attention, and it is thus appropriate to have an article on it, also noting the many and loud criticisms made of the book and the wider claims surrounding race and IQ. I happen to think, say, astrology is completely bogus. Should we delete that too? --Robert Merkel 06:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not about truth, but about verifiability, and it is a verifiable fact the the book exists and that says what it says. If you find published criticisms of the contents of the book, I invite you to add those criticisms (sourced and written in a NPOV manner).Randroide 09:20, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unacknowledged Rushton Citation

The phrase "concludes the average human IQ is presently 90, equivalent to the mental age of a white 14 year old. (Standardized IQ tests are normed to 100, the mental age of the average white 16-year-old.)" seems to be an unacknowledged citation of Rushton's review of Lynn's work [2]. It is also slighty odd, while intelligence tests for children IQ was originally (circa 1910) worked out with reference to mental age this certainly isn't standard practise today, and never was standard practise with adult samples. It also carries the implication, intended or not, that adults with an IQ of 90 in countries other than where the norm was established (the UK) are child like in their intelligence. Surely better to say: "concludes the average human IQ is presently 90 when compared to the norm of 100, or two thirds of a standard deviation below the norm." JonathanE 11:10, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Mostly agree. "norm" is problematic; what's meant is "White average". --Rikurzhen 19:38, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the researchers used a norm from a population other than the ones they are making comparisons with, would UK norm suffice? JonathanE 19:57, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article vs. Book Comments

I think quite a few contributors here are confusing a discussion about a particular book with the discussion of an article about that book. Several comments have pointed out that the book itself is offensive, without suggesting any changes to the article.

Likewise, we should keep the "righteous indignation" response to a minimum and stick to facts, reason and proper citations.

Doug Hubbard

[edit] Steve Sailer

The VDARE links are exceptionally biased and not necessarily to be trusted. Sailer is not a reliable source. Steve_Sailer is surrounded by controversy and fails to publish anything peer-reviewed that doesn't end up in a partisan magazine. --129.97.84.62 20:56, 5 December 2006 (UTC)