Talk:Ionized bracelet

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).

This is a controversial topic, which may be under dispute.
Please read this talk page and discuss substantial changes here before making them.
Make sure you supply full citations when adding information to highly controversial articles.

Contents

[edit] placebo effect

why doesn't this article specify that this item has only a placebo effect marketed as working "like magic" ? is it possible to mention this is quack medecine while staying neutral and objective ? other than leaving an outside like to do the dirty work of telling the reader that this is all a big load (or just understate that this is a big load by association just by leaving a link to a skeptic website) is there a way to say this is snake oil, this is just a small rubbery metal-looking steel cable-shaped open bracelet called an "ionized bracelet" that doesn't contain anything that is even "ionized" (even it's paint is probably non-conductor !) that doesn't do anything more than sugar pills without being non objective ? ... I think I'm just going to add a link to snake oil in the see also section just for that ! shodan at wikipedia@domn.net

It comes down to NPOV. Specifically, I direct you to NPOV#Pseudoscience.
Gunslinger47 20:40, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
To answer your question specifically. "is it possible to mention this is quack medecine while staying neutral and objective?" I just did in my recent edit, more or less. Since I have a peer-reviewed scientific journal as a reference, I can flat out say that it has no effect on pain relief, despite claims to the opposite. As for their other claims, I don't think we can say anything. –Gunslinger47 05:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Q-RAY design patent

"The flat ball terminal ends hold an international design patent." [1]

The international design patent covers only the shape of the bracelet, not its function. It is pointless to mention this in the article, so I am removing it.

Gunslinger47 22:03, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Link to Website

Previously, the link to QRay.com was removed because "Wikipedia is not for free advertisement". I don't believe that was the contributor's issue with the link. Marketing placebos as working products can be seen as an ethical grey area, however by linking too their page, Wikipedia is not condoning the company's business practices.

To maintain a NPOV, I have linked to both the company's own website and to the Quackwatch article.

Gunslinger47 02:04, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nature's Bracelets, etc.

WikipediaExpert is very insistent on keeping a link to the online retailer. Looking at WikipediaExpert's contributions we can see that all this account has ever done up to this point is create external links to http://www.naturesbracelets.com/. Though, he did fix one of my typos. Thank you for that.

This leads me to believe that this is linkspam. I've removed it once, and asked for a discussion on the topic if there was any objection, but it was re-added. That aside, I don't believe Wikipedia should link to places to buy products off of pages which discuss them. If you go to the entry on Shoes, for example, you wouldn't want to see them linking to a random online shoe retailer.

So, anyway. I'm going to remove the link again. If anyone objects, please comment here and then I might be persuaded to stop reverting your contributions in the future.–Gunslinger47 02:03, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm in complete agreement with ye. -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 08:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ionization

User:Suraky made this contribution:


==Ionization==
Ionized bracelets are not actually ionized despite the claims of the 
manufacturers. Solid metal objects are not in an ionized state. This raises the 
question as to how the bracelets can have any of the alledged health benefits 
the manufacturers claim are imbued upon the jewellry by their secret ionization 
process.

I have moved the text from the entry to here because I don't like reverting people, and because I'd like to get some feedback on the subject. The section poorly written, references no sources, and exists only to label QT Inc. as charlatans selling worthless hunks of solid steel. QT Inc. says they have a secretive ionization process, but from everything we know about ionization, this seems highly unlikely. However, it is not our place to call them liars in an encyclopedic entry. At least not without reputable sources. I would not be against a discussion of ionization (or lack thereof) in the page, but if it is going to be there, I'd like it to be phrased much better than this. Opinions? –Gunslinger47 23:13, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why it couldn't, however, be our place to point out that metal won't simply be happy to sit around in an "ionized" state. Solids don't do that. Heck, the quackwatch link could be switched into a reference for that. The section was not well worded though, and went too far out of its way to label them as liars. -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 00:08, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I removed a similar contribution in the past. [2] The original text was "Of course, since a solid piece of stainless steel is not at all ionized, even the most basic description of these products are wrong." by 24.87.51.94. As I said before, I wouldn't particularly mind having mention of this in the article, but I can think of no good way to say it. There needs to be some good reason to pointing it out - more than just saying that they're wrong. It's not exactly the same situation, but it's sort of like pointing out that magic markers aren't actually magic. –Gunslinger47 04:04, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Magic markers don't market themselves as using a magical force, though. Q-Ray does market its bracelets as ionized. This is quite nonsensical. -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 05:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
"Q-Ray Ionized Bracelets ® are manufactured with our exclusive Ionization process. This protected process is what separates Q-Ray from all other bracelets and makes them known as the Serious Performance Bracelet®." [3]
Whatever that means…
Well, giving them the benefit of the doubt - a very big benefit - we can assume that they are using some sort of process unknown to modern science. Either that, or they are using a form of electrolysis or something, inside an ionized bath, and they believe that qualifies it for the term Ionized. –Gunslinger47 18:38, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
The only way in which the Q-Ray can be demonstrated to be a Serious Performance Bracelet® is in the financial sense, and only for QT, Inc. As for the issue of ionization, they claim that the bracelets are manufactured using an exclusive ionization process, which can be both true and meaningless at the same time. It wouldn't be difficult to come up with a very elaborate, completely unique ionization process for their bracelets that is also 100% ineffective. They would then have legitimate ionized bracelets, though they would be indistinguishable from identical plain steel bracelets, since ionization will not have any effect on the solid steel. Joel Blanchette 18:36, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
That sums it up pretty well. It all possibility their claim of ionization is "both true and meaningless at the same time". I don't think we can say much on this subject, at least not without any sources. I suppose we could say that exactly what they mean by ionization is unknown. According to traditional understanding of science, solid metals cannot exist in ionized states. Alternatively they could be refering to an ionization process, whereby they treat the metal with an ionized bath. This seems to be the more likely option. –Gunslinger47 21:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Remove "Controversial Topic" Tag

Why is this talk page tagged with "Controversial topic" and why is there a comment to that effect in the article? Where's the controversy? The double-blind scientific study has been conducted, so any controversy should now be resolved. The only thing remaining is the honesty of the advertising, and that's hardly controversial. It's not like this article is about an un-testable question like the abortion debate wrangles with. -Amatulic 02:47, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

It's the other way around. The struggle for a neutral POV is not against advocates, but against those who would cry "shenanigans!". It's important to keep a neutral tone, even when dealing with subjects like this. The template is here just to remind people to "read this talk page and discuss substantial changes here before making them" and to "make sure you supply full citations when adding information". The category is not required, so I'll try to strip it by substituting the template instead. –Gunslinger47 14:47, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What is an ionized bracelet?

I've read the article, but it doesn't explain what an ionized bracelet is. What is it? What process is involved? How is it different from a magnetic bracelet? This seems to be an advertisement with no additional value. Chris 05:43, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

The bracelets are supposedly manufactured with a secret and "exclusive Ionization process". Thus we don't know the process involved. So, what is it? As the article says, it's a "type of jewelry purported to affect the chi of its wearer". That's all we know for sure. It is different from a magnetic bracelet in that it doesn't have magnets in it. –Gunslinger47 20:05, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, gunslinger. Against all odds, your comment really did clear up a few issues for me. And now I have an ionized bridge I like to sell you. I'm a complete Wikipedia addict, but I think this article is a REALLY compelling argument for editorial oversight (as much as I HATE to say that). But your reasoning is sound, if not a bit humorous. Caveat emptor! Chris 11:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't quite understand what you want. Perhaps you could suggest improvements to the article, while citing adaquate secondary sources? What exactly would be done with "editorial oversight"? –Gunslinger47 15:14, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
The article says exactly what the bracelets are proported to do, then gives a decent overview of the criticisms and legal issues. It's all referenced. What's this "editorial oversight" and "advertising" about? I don't think that pointing out that these are considered to work through the placebo effect is advertising. The article does not talk about what makes an ionic bracelet ionic, because the companies themselves never seem to go into the details of this; this is pretty typical for pseudoscience/quackery. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 16:03, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I didn't mean to offend, and I don't want anything. By editorial oversight, I meant that no editor in his right mind would include this entry in a traditional encyclopedia. I'm still trying to wrap my head around this whole Wikipedia concept, and I was serious when I said Gunslinger's comment helped me out. Sorry if I came across as snarky. Chris 23:50, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
We were just curious about what you meant, and I was rather curious about the advertising bit, as I hate adverts of any variety :P. The Wikipedia is a little stranger than typical encyclopedias. It tends to include just about anything that is notable at this moment, even if it will eventually be ignored by history. The ionized bracelets are notable because of their frequent TV advertisements, popularity (I've seen several jewlery shops in the mall here that sell Q-RAYs, much to my own dismay), FDA troubles, etc. It never hurts to help inform people about both sides of such a product. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 17:22, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../i/o/n/Talk%7EIonized_bracelet_aa52.html"